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Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

Salamence as a Suspect?

  • Yes - Offensive Characteristic

    Votes: 223 29.7%
  • Yes - Defensive Characteristic

    Votes: 7 0.9%
  • Yes - Support Characteristic

    Votes: 26 3.5%
  • No - It Fits No Characteristic

    Votes: 414 55.2%
  • I'm Not Sure

    Votes: 80 10.7%

  • Total voters
    750
Status
Not open for further replies.
Zarator, the facts you are laying out are true, but:

-"It has two equally viable sets"

-"It has no completely reliable switch ins"

Those are true-- but honestly, so what? Neither of those sounds remotely convincing, especially in the context of the DP metagame.

It has multiple viable sets-- I mean really? REALLY?? When Latias is running around with specs, scarf, calm mind, wish support, screens, etc., Or Jirachi is running around with scarf, or faking a scarf while carrying a berry, etc. etc. Realistically speaking, there are pokemon with much more diverse movesets than Salamence in the metagae.

Jirachi and Latias are absolutely not on the same boat of Salamence. The former does not have the same destructive power of Salamence. Sure, it has a move to screw up almost every one of his possible counters, however it has much more reliable checks. Swampert, for example, can withstand almost everything Jirachi dishes out bar Grass Knot, boosted Psychic and Trick. It is not a counter, but it has a good degree of reliability - much more than anything could boast against Salamence. The same can be said for Latias, when you have Blissey, Scizor and Tyranitar able to check almost all of her sets.

You people keep thinking as if we are blaming Salamence for the fact that it has a diverse movepool, where certainly we aren't - heck, even Dragonite has a richer movepool than big brother Mence. The great feat of Salamence is not diversity. It is, rather, the ability to screw the entire tier with just two movesets - DD Mence, and Mixmence. There is anything which can switch into both the movesets with even remotely the same reliability of the checks I mentioned for Jirachi, Latias, Gyarados, Infernape and so on. If you guess the wrong of the two movesets (essentially a coinflip), most times you put yourself at a huge disadvantage - you cannot even let the Pokémon in game to scout the set, because if it is a Dragon Dance variant and said Pokémon cannot block the setup you are fucked anyway (unless you have a Scizor, but we have said countless times how easy is to get rid of Scizor).

It has no completely reliable switch ins. Again-- so what? You are avoiding wording it this way but what you are saying is: There's nothing that near-perfectly counters Salamence. Why are you avoiding saying it this way? Because it is wide common sense that "counters" are considered an out-dated way of thinking/judging pokemon in 4th gen.

Do you know why it's such a bad argument?

Yes Gengar is stopped in its tracks by blissey. Yes, Gyarados is screwed by Vaporeon or Celebi, Infernape by Latias, Lucario by Gliscor, and Tyranitar isn't getting far with Machamp around.

But guess what? Not every team is going to have a Blissey, a Vaporeon, a Latias, Gliscor and a Machamp. Besides, if I were to do that, I got nothing to counter threat z right now.

Again, don't try this. I know perfectly well that the notion of counter is a surpassed one. Besides, you really cannot say Blissey is a counter to Latias or Swampert is a counter to Jirachi. But there is a great difference between "X Pokémon has no counters" (which, as you said, is perfectly acceptable in this metagame) and "X Pokémon has no reliable checks and beating it most times is a coinflip" (which is beyond what any other Pokémon in OU can boast). I mean, sure, most times you limit yourself to check threats rather than counter them. However, when the only ways to check a threat offensively imply using a Magnezone bait (Scizor), a Pursuit bait (Scarf Gengar, Scarf Latias) or, even worse, hoping into a Speed tie (Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Flygon), whereas defensive and/or stallish teams have almost no hope, there is something wrong. Besides, all this need for scarfers just to check a threat reminds me a lot of how, in Ubers, you cannot leave home without a Scarfer. Sure, I know this last fact hasn't strictly anything to do with Salamence's tier status, but it is nonetheless interesting.

The notion of there being "no realiable counter" is pointless when every team is going to have to deal with threats through checks anyway, because it's impossible to carry the "reliable counter" to everything. :/ That's the whole reason why the "counters" methodology was thrown out the window. Not to mention that just because there is a perfect counter doesn't mean it's necessarily good (or good for your team). What's the point in having a P-2 to counter Gyara if it can't do anything to the rest of your opponent's team and ends up set up fodder for dd ttar? How much use is Vappy going to be if they set Breloom up on it every time you use it to counter Gyara?

I won't commenting on this part, since what I said before shall suffice. Also, that's the reason why I do not accept "Cresselia" as an acceptable answer to Salamence.

This game isn't played by using 1 pokemon against the metagame-- it's played by 1 team versus 1 team. On a given team, I might not have a perfect counter to Salamence, but if I also don't have one for Suicune, Machamp or ScarfJirachi-- guess what, beating those pokes is going to be more or less just as tough. Latias might always beat Mixape, but if I don't have a Latias on my team, that really doesn't do me any good when I'm staring down the raging monkey.

Again, the threats you have pointed out are much more easy to check, or even counter, than Salamence. The wrong fact is that, whereas you have viable answers to these Pokémon, you have none for Salamence.

The point is that in order to win, you're going to have to beat pokemon without counters, but with innovation, smart play, and luck-- Salamence is no different in that way than any other pokemon you can't include a counter for. Sure Salamence is a threat to every team-- but then so are many other pokemon, and the way a person builds a team could result in it having even bigger problems against other things, like Suicune, Jolteon or Flygon. You just can't make it impervious to everything.

The point is, if I wanted to make a team impervious to Tyranitar, or Latias, or Gyarados, or Jolteon, or Suicune, or "what the hell", while still having a viable team in my hands (although with his weaknesses), I could. The same thing, with Salamence, is nigh impossible. Having multiple scarfers on the team makes you weak not just to a single Pokémon, but to an entire playing style (aka stall). Hoping on Scizor to reliably check Salamence is an illusion too. The fact that, despite the fact that you prepare for him, Salamence can still fuck you up, reminds me less of Infernape, Gengar and co. and more or Garchomp. I'm not saying Salamence = Garchomp, but rather than, like Garchomp, making a viable Salamence-proof team in this metagame is completely impossible, and at the moment, Salamence is the only Pokémon in the tier to boast such a feat. Hence why, at the moment, Salamence is probably the only Pokémon in the tier to warrant a test.
 
Ulevo, I'm not gonna reply to most of your shit, because apparently like myself you fail to read half of my posts. And all the stuff you mentioned about Salamence to 'counteract' my points applies directly to Rayquaza as well. What if Rayquaza used Draco Meteor, and something switches in like Swampert? Oh, then it becomes a shit-ton easier to deal with right? Stop fucking assuming random situations and take the Pokemon for face value, god damn.

Its also quite funny that you tell me 'not to use Scizor if I don't want to, but then recommend using Lucario for Extremespeed purposes', as if you didn't read me say about 50 million times that all you people do is recommend revenge-killing in dealing with Salamence. Fine, Rayquaza should be OU too, since SCIZORS BULLET PUNCH AND LUCARIO's EXTREMESPEED CAN DEAL WITH IT. Lol, what a fucking joke.

Another thing, every team constructed has a Salamence weakness, whereas other teams constructed can choose not to have weaknesses to Infernape, Gengar, Lucario, etc. Salamence is uncounterable (so is Gengar, but its set is so common and known that its easier to prepare for). Yeah, enough of this.

About Swampert, did it ever question your mind that Salamence can switch out? Did it ever question your mind if Swampert already has residual damage? Yeah, I can play this game too, lets not start it.

Lol, ghosts are a free switch-in to a Dynamicpunch, and then get hit hard by Payback. What the hell is your point? You act like switching into one move validates your point, sorry play more Pokemon.

What? Since when? I mentioned Pokemon previously, I never mentioned methods, and you are purposely ignoring options all the aforementioned Pokemon have.

Lol, its funny because in your posts to counter mine, you mention Lucario's Extremespeed and Scizor's Bullet Punch. And then you mention Swampert, who is not a fucking counter. Skarmory, Metagross, and Bronzong are 2HKO'd on a Fire Blast switch, duh. And no, its not uncommon to use Fire Blast first move when Salamence comes in, that comes with battling prowess and knowledge which many of you that argue against Salamence seeme not to have. Yeah, great mentioning of Pokemon. You don't have to Draco Meteor everything, its not that easy jack. Fire Blast hits a ton of physically defensive stuff for KO's, its not that hard to see. I didn't ignore jack shit, you seem to want to ignore what I'm saying.

Once again, I gave you an example of how it met the support characteristic, and you interject your questioning once again. I'm not gonna address this again, because if you don't understand how or why TAY was successful, you just are thick-headed.

Guess what, that threat list you gave me of what beats Salamence, beats Rayquaza too. Rayquaza for OU (what a joke).

I'm being an unreasonable poster? I already told you, Draco Meteor + Fire Blast + Brick Break hits everything in OU for a minimum 2HKO minus maybe 2 or 3 Pokemon. It doesn't need to surpass faster Pokemon, its base 100 Speed is good enough to beat most walls anyway, and Pokemon faster than 100 are typically sweepers. That's like fucking saying Infernape isn't good because it doesn't have 'Dragon Dance' to deal with faster Pokemon. Of course sweepers have their pitfalls, but, you know, they can switch out and come in on something without issue.

As for your Latias comment, Latias counters will always stay Latias counters, regardless of what set you use. Blissey will always win, variants of Tyranitar and Jirachi will always win. With Salamence, you don't know what has the potential to win and what has the potential to lose. Again, if you don't see this, you're being thick headed.

I think your calc for Focus Blast on Tyranitar is way off, but whatever its irrelevant. I used the calculator on site, for your information.

Lol at your Wobbuffet comments. What you said is basically you trying to justify your invalid point, making the convenient claim that 'players have ethics'. Come on, don't give me that bullshit.

Cool, you don't buy the Deoxys-S argument, I really don't care. You said you weren't here around 8 months ago, that's all I needed to hear.

(Didn't mean to be rude if any points came across that way, I just find it funny how everyone is willing to criticize everyone else without even properly reading posts.)
 

That likely took you a while to post, at least sufficiently enough to not notice I PM'd you while you typed it out. I'm not going to respond to your responses to what I had to argue, as I mentioned in PM, and I feel that should you wish to avoid unnecessary debate from other posters on what you had to suggest just now, which I feel really was more of a personal dispute on very circumstantial, specific and ultimately irrelevant disagreements, you should probably edit out what you feel is unnecessary to the discussion as well.

(Didn't mean to be rude if any points came across that way, I just find it funny how everyone is willing to criticize everyone else without even properly reading posts.)

It's fine. Anyway, I read the whole post, and I don't feel the need to criticize, so lets focus on keeping the discussion on track.
 
I'll try to interject here with a fairly simple thought: this is not (from what I gather from the purpose of this thread; I may be wrong) a debate on whether or not Salamence is Uber, but rather a debate on whether or not it should be subject to Suspect testing, at which point we may decide whether or not it is Uber. Seeing how heated this discussion has gotten (seriously, just read the last few pages), I personally think that we have enough disagreement within the community to warrant a test.

Just my 2 cents. Say I'm wrong if I am, but don't jump down my throat, please.
 
I think your restatement of reachzero's argument is probably the most cogent sally from the anti-Salamence side. However, it relies on the idea that Salamence is a user-friendly Pokemon which can achieve win conditions if it is inserted into any old team by a minimally competent battler with a weak strategy.

Salamence is powerful in the right hands. It requires finesse and support to handle correctly. The suspect characteristics do not assume a seasoned trainer as part of "common battle conditions", unless I am sorely mistaken. YacheChomp is decidedly Uber because it has an idiot-proof instruction manual consisting of a few core steps with a handful of simple conditionals governing their use. Barring hax or inability to follow instructions, YacheChomp achieves win conditions on an alarming scale.

I'm not using Chomp as a comparison to Mence. I'm using Chomp to illustrate the difference between a pain in the ass and a suspect candidate. Chomp is the shining example of a suspect. Mence is not.

Spamming Draco Meteor and Fire Blast do not guarantee wins against any opponent who is familiar with Salamence (with all the theorymon in this thread, I still have not seen anything solid to support the Spamamence argument). Intimidate is very useful, but still conditional, and it is not a permanent boost to Mence's defense stat. Stealth rock is up, and if it's not, it's because significant support is being provided to Salamence.

If you want to win with Mence, you don't just print out the instruction sheet. You learn Mence's weaknesses and strengths, you use prediction and psychology, and you execute a team-wide strategy. Mence is subject to the same sort of prediction errors which make it such a threat to others: one wrong guess about what's switching in or what its opponent is packing, and its effectiveness is nullified.
Thanks! I'm glad someone read it. lol

I think whether Salamence is user-friendly or not is irrelevant to it possibly being a suspect. If it can do what I claimed it can do in common battle conditions or not is what matters. Whether common battle conditions include a player's skill is uncertain but I assume it does not. Common battle conditions sounds like what is in the game and players are not in the game. They use the game.
 
I'll try to interject here with a fairly simple thought: this is not (from what I gather from the purpose of this thread; I may be wrong) a debate on whether or not Salamence is Uber, but rather a debate on whether or not it should be subject to Suspect testing, at which point we may decide whether or not it is Uber. Seeing how heated this discussion has gotten (seriously, just read the last few pages), I personally think that we have enough disagreement within the community to warrant a test.

Just my 2 cents. Don't jump down my throat, please.

Agreed. There's no way this debate is going to get settled without it. And if you don't think mence is Uber, what's the problem with going through the motions? Since I haven't played competitively for awhile now, I'm going to stay away from too much theorymon. There are so many pokemon in the game now that bringing up specific situations are just laughable. What sticks out to me a lot in this debate is this:

Draco Meteor + Fire Blast + Brick Break hits everything in OU for a minimum 2HKO minus maybe 2 or 3 Pokemon.

I'm not screaming throw the banhammer. But I don't believe for a second that that kind of stopping power is good for the meta left unchecked. If you're on the bandwagon that believes Sally is balanced, then what's so bad about testing it? Honestly, if one pokemon can tear a HUGE chunk off of 2-3 pokemon on a team before it finally gets taken out, then it did its job.
 
I'm going to have to agree. Anyone vouching for Salamence's balance in the OU metagame shouldn't have a problem with a test since, if what they said was correct, Mence will end up not passing the test and remain in OU like they said it should.

It's not necessarily a terrible thing that many teams need to run something to counter Salamence, because a lot of Pokemon have the same effect in a way (though not as much to the same extent), but the fact that it has the ability to crack through a team with relative ease. Granted, if you want to go situation by situation and say, "Well, hey, at this moment, Salamence can't do anything, so he's not Uber", then that's fine, but rarely have I heard of someone seeing Salamence switch in and say, "Not worried about this. No threat to me." It's always a threat. A huge one.
 
Agreed. There's no way this debate is going to get settled without it. And if you don't think mence is Uber, what's the problem with going through the motions?

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, for this reason the only cogent argument against testing Salamence is that there is something else that is more important to test in it's stead. I only got one suggestion that I think is anywhere near as significant as Salamence which was testing Stealth Rock, which I can kind of get behind. (Although if Stealth Rock was banned, I would put big money on Salamence getting banned not long afterwards because Stealth Rock is so instrumental in checking it).
 
Thanks! I'm glad someone read it. lol

I think whether Salamence is user-friendly or not is irrelevant to it possibly being a suspect. If it can do what I claimed it can do in common battle conditions or not is what matters. Whether common battle conditions include a player's skill is uncertain but I assume it does not. Common battle conditions sounds like what is in the game and players are not in the game. They use the game.

With this logic, we may assume that Wobbuffet is OU too. Of course the clauses do assume a good level of skill from the player.
 
I don't follow. How is that possible?

We do not ban Pokémon because only if they are apparently broken, but also if skilled players are able to prove them broken. Now, when Wobbuffet was OU, most people weren't capable of using it, and Wobb lingered around the 30 usage place on the ladder. Yet, the people at the top of the leaderboard used it regularly, in a clearly broken way. Which is why Wobbuffet ended up banned from OU, despite not being exploited - and found broken - by the majority of people.
 
I dont have a giant essay to write for this lol. All I will say is what I think. I think Salamance is a very good pokemon. I really like the New MixMence, but I dont think its anywhere near being Uber. Like it has been previously said LO+Sandstorm+SR can easily wear down Salamance then kill it quickly with a CB Scizor. This is just what I believe I might be totally wrong.
 
OK, its strong. But its just another threat like Luke, Scizor or Gyara. Be unprepared for it and you will be rampaged. But actually you CAN be prepared to face it. IMHO, a pokemon = suspect/uber (in the offensive characteristic, of course) if its impossible to prepare against it without wasting 2-3 team slots.
I know this have already been said, but look Chomp. Nothing could enter SAFELY in it. Mence is unpredictable? So is luke. But once you discover their sets you can deal with them. Chomp and Latios werent that easy to deal with even if you knew the set.

Note: i know we have a well made definition to suspect.
 
We do not ban Pokémon because only if they are apparently broken, but also if skilled players are able to prove them broken. Now, when Wobbuffet was OU, most people weren't capable of using it, and Wobb lingered around the 30 usage place on the ladder. Yet, the people at the top of the leaderboard used it regularly, in a clearly broken way. Which is why Wobbuffet ended up banned from OU, despite not being exploited - and found broken - by the majority of people.

I think that the Mence argument is closer to Garchomp's usage than Wobbuffet, however. The Spamamence argument (against MixMence in particular) is that anyone who spams Draco Meteor + Fire Blast (or Brick Break, or whatever the SE option at hand is) automatically wins, regardless of the trainer's finesse. Sounds a lot like Swords Dance Garchomp to me, but it's an oversimplified view of running Salamence.

The Wobbuffet end of things, on the other hand, assumes that Mence's broken nature only truly shines in the hands of a skilled trainer. I'm still not convinced that a well-played Mence is so overpowered as to be broken, even acknowledging that it's more powerful than Lucario et. al on an average basis. As far as I can see, it's just an unpredictable wallbreaker with greater reward for greater risk.

Interestingly, the intersection between the two example Ubers - Chomp and Wobbuffet - lies in their abilities. Chomp would arguably have been a lot less controversial without Sand Veil, and Wobbuffet without Shadow Tag is a joke. Intimidate isn't quite on that godly tier, so Mence has to show that it's making up for it with brokenness in other arenas.
 
Stall is going to be pretty hilarious if Sally's banned and latias isn't (the only other wallbreaker with that firepower being infernape).

As much as I hate facing salamence with my stall teams, it'd be pretty ridiculous without him. I mean just having vaporeon+blissey walls the entire metagame lol.

Then again if sally's banned my shuckle wouldn't be quite as useful as he is, and my raikou won't have quite as much fun since everyone will start running stallier sets with blissey. Basically, by banning mence and leaving latias you're making the game way, way, waaaay too defensive. Mence is easily revenge-killed, which keeps the pace of the game fast. Tyranitar, at #3, is an enormous passive check to mence, severely limiting his turns to dominate, and also easing prediction.

Btw, 1v1 almost all lategame sweepers can beat sally if rocks are down (both sides). Ttar ccan survive and EQ and kill wwith SE. Gyara wins with stone edge. All special sweepers outspeed and can ko (starmie/latias/raikoujolt), and suicune can survive anything and ko. Hell even empoleon can usually survive and ko. If you read the RMT's, more checks and consideration are put into scizor (random hp fires and flamethrowers for him), tyranitar (how many times have swampert been put in just for him), and rotom than salamence.

The reason why salamence isn't broken even though he can beat almost everything is because 1 wrong move and you're in deep trouble. Fireblast a starmie/suicune/latias and you have to switch, leaving you at what, 40% in your next switch in if there's no SS, and if there is then it's 38%. Draco meteor a blissey, scizor, or jirachi, and the same thing happens. He's really a 1 shot wonder unless you can keep rocks off the field.
 
OK, its strong. But its just another threat like Luke, Scizor or Gyara. Be unprepared for it and you will be rampaged. But actually you CAN be prepared to face it. IMHO, a pokemon = suspect/uber (in the offensive characteristic, of course) if its impossible to prepare against it without wasting 2-3 team slots.
I know this have already been said, but look Chomp. Nothing could enter SAFELY in it. Mence is unpredictable? So is luke. But once you discover their sets you can deal with them. Chomp and Latios werent that easy to deal with even if you knew the set.

Note: i know we have a well made definition to suspect.
No, you actually can't be prepared to face it. As many people have stated before, there is nothing outside of Ubers that can switch into Sala without potentially being OHKOed or 2HKOed. And the fact that a Pokemon can be revenge-killed doesn't make it any less Uber, because if it has knocked out one Pokemon it has done its job. The difference in Stealth Rock damage is really the only thing separating Salamence from Garchomp, and even Stealth Rock is not as inevitable as people say it is. So there is actually no way to be completely prepared for Salamence.
 
Jirachi and Latias are absolutely not on the same boat of Salamence. The former does not have the same destructive power of Salamence. Sure, it has a move to screw up almost every one of his possible counters, however it has much more reliable checks. Swampert, for example, can withstand almost everything Jirachi dishes out bar Grass Knot, boosted Psychic and Trick. It is not a counter, but it has a good degree of reliability - much more than anything could boast against Salamence. The same can be said for Latias, when you have Blissey, Scizor and Tyranitar able to check almost all of her sets.

You people keep thinking as if we are blaming Salamence for the fact that it has a diverse movepool, where certainly we aren't - heck, even Dragonite has a richer movepool than big brother Mence. The great feat of Salamence is not diversity. It is, rather, the ability to screw the entire tier with just two movesets - DD Mence, and Mixmence. There is anything which can switch into both the movesets with even remotely the same reliability of the checks I mentioned for Jirachi, Latias, Gyarados, Infernape and so on. If you guess the wrong of the two movesets (essentially a coinflip), most times you put yourself at a huge disadvantage - you cannot even let the Pokémon in game to scout the set, because if it is a Dragon Dance variant and said Pokémon cannot block the setup you are fucked anyway (unless you have a Scizor, but we have said countless times how easy is to get rid of Scizor).



Again, don't try this. I know perfectly well that the notion of counter is a surpassed one. Besides, you really cannot say Blissey is a counter to Latias or Swampert is a counter to Jirachi. But there is a great difference between "X Pokémon has no counters" (which, as you said, is perfectly acceptable in this metagame) and "X Pokémon has no reliable checks and beating it most times is a coinflip" (which is beyond what any other Pokémon in OU can boast). I mean, sure, most times you limit yourself to check threats rather than counter them. However, when the only ways to check a threat offensively imply using a Magnezone bait (Scizor), a Pursuit bait (Scarf Gengar, Scarf Latias) or, even worse, hoping into a Speed tie (Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Flygon), whereas defensive and/or stallish teams have almost no hope, there is something wrong. Besides, all this need for scarfers just to check a threat reminds me a lot of how, in Ubers, you cannot leave home without a Scarfer. Sure, I know this last fact hasn't strictly anything to do with Salamence's tier status, but it is nonetheless interesting.



I won't commenting on this part, since what I said before shall suffice. Also, that's the reason why I do not accept "Cresselia" as an acceptable answer to Salamence.



Again, the threats you have pointed out are much more easy to check, or even counter, than Salamence. The wrong fact is that, whereas you have viable answers to these Pokémon, you have none for Salamence.



The point is, if I wanted to make a team impervious to Tyranitar, or Latias, or Gyarados, or Jolteon, or Suicune, or "what the hell", while still having a viable team in my hands (although with his weaknesses), I could. The same thing, with Salamence, is nigh impossible. Having multiple scarfers on the team makes you weak not just to a single Pokémon, but to an entire playing style (aka stall). Hoping on Scizor to reliably check Salamence is an illusion too. The fact that, despite the fact that you prepare for him, Salamence can still fuck you up, reminds me less of Infernape, Gengar and co. and more or Garchomp. I'm not saying Salamence = Garchomp, but rather than, like Garchomp, making a viable Salamence-proof team in this metagame is completely impossible, and at the moment, Salamence is the only Pokémon in the tier to boast such a feat. Hence why, at the moment, Salamence is probably the only Pokémon in the tier to warrant a test.


Just going to say that I'm not convinced, because the statement "has more destructive power" is a subjective one. Depending on how you build your team, it's very possible that a pokemon like Infernape or even a stallish pokemon like Rotom could be a much bigger threat to your team than Salamence.

Also your notion of a "reliable check" might as well be the same thing as the notion of a counter, if you think a reliable check should make a team "nigh impervious" to the threat. Also, keep in mind that Infernape did not have a "reliable check" until we let Latias down. >____> Whether a true counter (pretty much the exact same thing as your "reliable check") exists or not is irrelevant to tiering in the eyes of widely accepted competitive battling theory.

Salamence is not the only pokemon that ends up deciding things on coin flips. Flygon, Heatran and others generate those situations a lot as well. The simple fact of the matter is that competitive pokemon has luck, and situations where "prediction" pretty much comes down to luck are common, and Salamence is far from the only pokemon to lead to these often. Hell, the 1st turn of almost every match is a similar situation.
 
He's really a 1 shot wonder unless you can keep rocks off the field.

Or provide Wish support. To be honest that's probably an easier task than keeping rocks away. I can't specifically think of any Wishers that lure in stuff Salamence counters mind.
 
OK, its strong. But its just another threat like Luke, Scizor or Gyara. Be unprepared for it and you will be rampaged. But actually you CAN be prepared to face it. IMHO, a pokemon = suspect/uber (in the offensive characteristic, of course) if its impossible to prepare against it without wasting 2-3 team slots.

Being prepared for it means nothing, if you use a scarf-Weavile you can also be prepared to revenge kill Rayquaza, but that doesn't make it OU material by any means.

I know this have already been said, but look Chomp. Nothing could enter SAFELY in it. Mence is unpredictable? So is luke. But once you discover their sets you can deal with them. Chomp and Latios werent that easy to deal with even if you knew the set.

Once again Chomp and Salamence are not comparable, I've stated this multiple times during stage 3-2, and even if I agree that Garchomp was way harder to handle than Salamence is (because of its typing, stats, ability, access to swords dance, bla bla bla) it doesn't mean that Salamence couldn't fulfill the offensive (and maybe the support?) characteristic as well. Also, please, don't make me laugh with these impossible comparisons, Lucario is a completely different Pokemon and is far from being unpredictable. Finally let me add a persnoal note: as a suspect tester who voted Latios OU in both stage 2 and stage 3, I believe that Latios was (and would be) more manageable than Salamence is, if only because it could effectively attack only from the special side and because of its pursuit weakness.

Finally, let me say that there's absolutely no need to exasperate the tones of the discussion because, as stated before, we're just discussing whether we should test Salamence or not, and also because, even if we decide to test it, the 3 ubers characteristics have an inevitable subjective component.
 
No, you actually can't be prepared to face it. As many people have stated before, there is nothing outside of Ubers that can switch into Sala without potentially being OHKOed or 2HKOed. And the fact that a Pokemon can be revenge-killed doesn't make it any less Uber, because if it has knocked out one Pokemon it has done its job. The difference in Stealth Rock damage is really the only thing separating Salamence from Garchomp, and even Stealth Rock is not as inevitable as people say it is. So there is actually no way to be completely prepared for Salamence.

If said pokemon was death fodder though, it has hardly done its job. "Switching into Salamence" hardly = death either, as it is possible to switch into it intelligently. And if you get unlucky, you die. Salamence is hardly the only pokemon to create such a situation.
 
it is possible to switch into it intelligently. And if you get unlucky, you die. Salamence is hardly the only pokemon to create such a situation.

Glad to see that this debate's become a lot LESS flame-filled.

All offtopic notes aside, I can see where you're coming from. Taking a glance at the threat list, it's easy to see that it's quite difficult to make a 6-pokemon, 4-moveslot team that can make for a lack of a hard time dealing with every threat on the list. That being said, can we talk about the group of pokemon, or pokemon combinations that may check the beast without it turning into "situational theorymon", or mudslinging like we had in pages before.

After this discussion stirred up the molecules in my brain, since I've been on shoddy retirement, I took a look around the RMT and warstory areas of the forum. Forgive me for stating the obvious, I'd just like to lay down the basics on the table while trying to stay away from the theorymon. I've been out of the meta for too long to offer theorymon of much use.

First, I'll take note of what I learned from RMT after poking about a few threads with the people who post their top ranking teams, and also took a look at threads with semi-stall, or bulky offense, first noting the pokemon on their team, then going straight to Salamence on the threat list. Note that I only read around at most 10 threads, I just wanted to get a discussion started before I got too deep into this debate too soon.

Immediately I noticed the trend of people recruiting 2 steel types on their squads. (I even noticed one with THREE...O_o) I'm not going to rest that solely on the shoulders of Salamence, I'm going to blame this note on how off balance the Dragon typing is in my opinion, and how every single one has access to the ridiculous Draco Meteor, on top of Platinum being quite GENEROUS and giving every poke, and its breeding partner outrage.

As far as steel goes, obviously what I saw most was Scizor, Metagross, Heatran, Forretress, and Jirachi. Occasionally Skarmory Lucario and Magnezone made the team. All of the above pokemon have been spoken on earlier in the thread. This is pretty much the spread of the BEST steel type pokemon on the OU list.

Secondly, I noticed a lot of dual-dragon showing up on squads, sometimes even alongside dual-steel. Mainly the culprits starring the show are Latias and, the star of this episode, Salamence. In the threads I did look at, there wasn't an ABUNDANCE of the dragon, but after taking a quick peek at the latest usage statistics, he landed a 21.4 percent. I then compared that to the Scizor that people seem to hate (yet still use) so much, and he landed a good 30.7. I take it that means the dragon shows up pretty commonly. I'll get back to Salamence's percentages a bit later on down the list.

There was also a trend of people using Gyarados to attempt to check Salamence. Again, I'll speak about 2 cents on this note a little later on in the post.

After spending some time looking at RMTs, taking them only at face value, aside from the couple threads that contained teams that peaked at the ladder's top ten, I have no idea what the skill level of the pokemoners that offered up their teams for criticism, and to be brutally honest, I'd have to say without any sort of credentials, I'm not led to believe that they're pokemon geniuses. That being said, I'm going to harp on Sally's statistics. I also kept in mind that the majority of the players playing in these battles are NOT pokemon pros.

There was a lot of talk about the combination of Fire Blast/Brick Break/Draco Meteor being able to lay waste to "all but 2 or 3 pokemon". Granted, I have seen NO damage calcs backing this (though that would take a good amount of time to list them ALL, it'd probably be more constructive to look at the list of pokemon that we come up with as checks for Salamence. Now looking at these three moves, let's see just how much each is used, LET ALONE in that particular combination.

Smogon Battle Statistics said:
Salamence | Move | Earthquake | 79.3 |
| Salamence | Move | Fire Blast | 45.0 |
| Salamence | Move | Draco Meteor | 38.4 |
| Salamence | Move | Flamethrower | 24.0 |
| Salamence | Move | Roost | 22.2 |
| Salamence | Move | Dragon Claw | 19.9 |
| Salamence | Move | Brick Break | 13.2 |
| Salamence | Move | Stone Edge | 7.9 |
| Salamence | Move | Hydro Pump | 7.3 |
| Salamence | Move | Fire Fang | 5.6 |
| Salamence | Move | Other (5) | < 4.1 |

Most of them apparently run Earthquake over Brick Break. That being said, anything steel type is absolutely COUNTING on walling Draco Meteor/Outrage. I'd say that nothing with steel in it's type is a safe check, especially since over 60 percent of Salamence are running Life Orb, which leads me to believe that a lot of the time you see Salamence, it's a mixer.

That being said, I'd say that puts a slight dent in its unpredictablity factor, since a majority of the dragons are running similar sets. My guess on the spread would be, plenty Mixmence, some DDmence, and the rare bulky mence, or some other random/gimmick set.

Gyarados seems to have a bit of potential to fight mence, but I'd say it's a hit and run sort of thing. I can't see Gyarados enjoying taking STAB dragon moves too much, I'd like to see damage calcs for Gyara vers D.Meteor, and Gyara vs -1 outrage.

At first glance, with the spread of pokemon used the most in OU, it seems the best way to get the dragon to die, is indeed through a revenge kill. This is not taking into account players with amazing prediction skills, players who think outside of the box and use pokemon not commonly used, and also the dreaded-but-shouldn't-be-dreaded luck factor.

After doing all this homework, I'm quite interested in following what would happen SHOULD Sally become suspect, not necessarily in stage 3-3, or even the possible stage 3-4, but at a later date.

Jeez. When I started this, I didn't intend to end up with an essay...lol
 
Just going to say that I'm not convinced, because the statement "has more destructive power" is a subjective one. Depending on how you build your team, it's very possible that a pokemon like Infernape or even a stallish pokemon like Rotom could be a much bigger threat to your team than Salamence.

A subjective one? Is the comparison between Salamence's 135/110 offenses and Draco Meteor/Outrage with Jirachi's 100/100 and Iron Head/Psychic a subjective one? What definition of "destructive power" is objective enough to you? Specs Kyogre Water Spout? Besides, I already said it countless times: you can make your team Infernape-proof (say, you have RestTalk Gyarados and Latias on the same team) or Rotom-proof (maybe using both a Blissey and a Scarf Heatran or a Tyranitar) without making it instantly an inferior team, but you do not have the same option with Salamence. You cannot really make a team Salamence-proof without resorting to dubious solutions like Cresselia or improbable Scarfers. Why, instead of keep saying "I'm not convinced blah blah blah" you try to show me a team which can handle Salamence regardless of prediction?

Also your notion of a "reliable check" might as well be the same thing as the notion of a counter, if you think a reliable check should make a team "nigh impervious" to the threat. Also, keep in mind that Infernape did not have a "reliable check" until we let Latias down. >____> Whether a true counter (pretty much the exact same thing as your "reliable check") exists or not is irrelevant to tiering in the eyes of widely accepted competitive battling theory.
Bullshit. We had Tentacruel and Gyarados before Latias get allowed into OU, and both can check Infernape better than anything else in OU (bar the aforementioned Cresselia and her huge flaws) can check Salamence. I also find you quite dishonest when you try to argue my position with "Oh, but Latias wasnt OU in the past!". I trust you as a battler enough to think that you know perfectly well that not only Gyarados and Tentacruel check Infernape reliably, but also that, since Infernape does not have Dragon Dance, you do not need Pokémon with at least 493 speed to reliably revenge-kill him. Instead of bitching as if you were a Pokémon beginner, try to come up with at least a couple of Pokémon which can check Salamence with the same reliability with which Gyarados, Tentacruel or pretty much any Scarfer with at least 232 Speed can check Infernape. Or, if you want to try again, some Pokémon which can boast the same utter lack of reliable check/counters of Salamence.

Salamence is not the only pokemon that ends up deciding things on coin flips. Flygon, Heatran and others generate those situations a lot as well. The simple fact of the matter is that competitive pokemon has luck, and situations where "prediction" pretty much comes down to luck are common, and Salamence is far from the only pokemon to lead to these often. Hell, the 1st turn of almost every match is a similar situation.
Lol, I didnt mean "coin flip" as a "last stand speed tie". Hell, every Pokémon can force it, and Salamence is no exception. But, in addiction to that, Salamence is also able to force a coinflip the same instant he comes into play. With the simple notion of "Am I a DD Mence or am I a Mixmence?", he can fuck you up a lot of times if you guess wrong.

So, in order to avoid other pointless posts by you or anyone else in the future, I tell you from now that I shall no longer tolerate any "I'm not convinced" posts. I brought to the table objective facts - namely, the lack of reliable checks for Salamence, and the fact that no other Pokémon in OU boasts a similar feat. So, if you want to answer my points, you have to prove me one out of two facts:
1) Salamence does have a check which is not easily trapped by Magnezone, which is not Pursuit bait, and which is not set up bait for pretty much anything else in OU
2) Another Pokémon in OU does lack a decent answer to him. In other words, another OU Pokémon like Salamence is unbeatable within the limits of competitive viability even if you prepare for him.
 
I'd say that nothing with steel in it's type is a safe check, especially since over 60 percent of Salamence are running Life Orb, which leads me to believe that a lot of the time you see Salamence, it's a mixer.
Nice pruning of the stats there. Here's the full thing:

+------------+--------------+------------------+---------+
| Salamence | Usage | 175224 | 21.4 |
| Salamence | Ability | Intimidate | 100.0 |
| Salamence | Item | Life Orb | 63.5 |
| Salamence | Item | Leftovers | 10.4 |
| Salamence | Item | Other (6) | < 8.7 |
| Salamence | Nature | Naive | 29.4 |
| Salamence | Nature | Jolly | 15.8 |
| Salamence | Nature | Adamant | 15.5 |
| Salamence | Nature | Naughty | 15.2 |
| Salamence | Nature | Other (6) | < 8.4 |
| Salamence | HP EV | None | 87.7 |
| Salamence | HP EV | Other (5) | < 4.7 |
| Salamence | Attack EV | Max | 35.9 |
| Salamence | Attack EV | Very High (200+) | 18.0 |
| Salamence | Attack EV | Low (50-100) | 17.5 |
| Salamence | Attack EV | None | 14.2 |
| Salamence | Attack EV | Other (3) | < 10.3 |
| Salamence | Defense EV | None | 93.9 |
| Salamence | Defense EV | Other (3) | < 3.7 |
| Salamence | SpAttack EV | None | 44.0 |
| Salamence | SpAttack EV | Very High (200+) | 19.0 |
| Salamence | SpAttack EV | Very Low (<50) | 16.6 |
| Salamence | SpAttack EV | Max | 13.9 |
| Salamence | SpAttack EV | Other (3) | < 3.0 |
| Salamence | SpDefense EV | None | 98.6 |
| Salamence | SpDefense EV | Medium (100-150) | 1.4 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | Max | 67.7 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | High (150-200) | 10.9 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | Very High (200+) | 10.3 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | Other (4) | < 5.1 |
| Salamence | Move | Earthquake | 79.3 |
| Salamence | Move | Outrage | 62.8 |
| Salamence | Move | Dragon Dance | 52.9 |
| Salamence | Move | Fire Blast | 45.0 |
| Salamence | Move | Draco Meteor | 38.4 |
| Salamence | Move | Flamethrower | 24.0 |
| Salamence | Move | Roost | 22.2 |
| Salamence | Move | Dragon Claw | 19.9 |
| Salamence | Move | Brick Break | 13.2 |
| Salamence | Move | Stone Edge | 7.9 |
| Salamence | Move | Hydro Pump | 7.3 |
| Salamence | Move | Fire Fang | 5.6 |
| Salamence | Move | Other (5) | < 4.1 |
+------------+--------------+------------------+---------+
It's a reasonable assumption that Dragon Dance usage closely correlates with standard Dancer usage (the mixed dancer is probably fairly rare). It's also a reasonable assumption that Draco Meteor usage closely correlates with MixMences usage (hardly anyone would run mixed WITHOUT DM, Specsmence are clearly rare since Specs are rare, and again I'm assuming the Mixed Dancer is rare)

Thus, around 35% of the time you see Salamence it'll be mixed, while around 50% of the time it will be the Dragon Dancer. The Dancer is the more common set, though not overwhelmingly so.

Seriously, don't selectively quote statistics to fabricate a point of view that is opposite to reality. If I seem pissed off, it's because I am.

EDIT: We can come at estimates from another angle thanks to EV spreads. No or very low special attack EVs probably indicates not Mixmence - so either Dragon Dancer or Bulky. At least 60.6% of Salamence are NOT Mixmence. Meanwhile, 32.9% are running very high or max Special Attack; these are probably mixed. Meanwhile, 54% of Salamence run max or very high Atk EVS - these are probably Dragon Dancers.

Both EV stats and move stats are in accord with the claim that the Dragon Dancer is the more common set, but the Mixed sets are not uncommon.
 
1 check that's not set up bait for anything else is shuckle, which I used on my ss team to get to CRE 1500 before. It's not a great number, but it's alright, and shuckle counters latias, rotom, infernape, heatran, etc.. too.

Anyways, the #1 check to Salamence is SR and its own life orb recoil. Again you only need to make 1 smart switch to make salamence useless.

Lapras is another decent counter to salamence, since it can iceshard for the KO and comfortably survives draco meteor, and doesn't care about dragon dance.

Salamence is BEATABLE. If it was UNBEATABLE then more people in OU would use him, like they did with chomp and are with scizor.

And saying tentacruel is a solid switch for infernape is silly since outside of stall tentacruel is useless and gyara set up fodder. Infernape can beat gyara with nasty plot grass knot/hp electric and can also counter latias with u-turn.
 
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