Shaymin-S (Analysis) (QC 2/2)

[giggity69]

I just took this over, give me a minute to get on track.


QC: 2/2

Shaymin-S
--------------

[Overview]

<p>Although, Shaymin-S was placed in OU for suspect testing, it overwhelmingly proved that it belonged in Ubers with the big boys. It is easy to discern why Shaymin-S is Uber material. Base 127 Speed coupled with Base 120 Special Attack is great for a sweeper like Shaymin-S. Its ability, Serene Grace perfectly complements its two main STAB moves: Seed Flare and Air Slash, which have their Special Defense drop chance and flinch chance increased. Should any effect occur, many walls and would-be checks are hard pressed to reliably counter Shaymin-S. However, Shaymin-S' awesome sweeping ability comes at the price of being extremely frail, which means that most priority moves can pick it off. Being Flying-type does not help either as it now loses a quarter of its health to the omnipresent Stealth Rock.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Seed Flare / Leaf Storm
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Hidden Power Ice
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>When paired with its blazing fast speed, Choice Scarf allows Shaymin-S to become a prime candidate for revenge killing as well as a decent choice for leading. Unlike other choiced Pokémon, Shaymin-S' STAB moves allow to evade tough situations. Seed Flare, with its 68% overall Special Defense drop, forces many would-be walls to reconsider staying in on Shaymin-S. Because of Choice Scarf, few Pokémon can escape the wrath of Air Slash and its flinch chance. Earth Power complements Shaymin-S' STABs as it smacks Steel-types, which would be good switch-ins for the two aforementioned moves, for respectable damage. Hidden Power Ice allows Shaymin-S to deal with the abundance of dragons such as Dragon Dance Rayquaza that lack Extremespeed, and Groudon.</p>

<p>As a revenge killer, Shaymin-s is arguably the best answer to Rock Polish Groudon due to being immune to Earthquake and netting the KO with Seed Flare while also being able to outspeed most varients of Rock Polish Groudon. Shaymin-s, due to its frailty, often has to rely on switching into a Ground-type move or after a Pokémon dies in order to get in relatively unscathed. However, once it gets in, it poses an immediate threat to the opposing team.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The nature used for Shaymin-S depends solely upon which role you wish Shaymin-S to perform.

[SET]
name: Substitute + Leech Seed
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Seed Flare
move 4: Air Slash / Hidden Power Fire / Earth Power
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[Set comments]

• Fastest SubSeed user
• Air Slash flinches can rack up damage really fast, especially with leech seed.
• Still fast enough to revenge kill Darkrai (With flinches), Ground / Rock Arceus, Kyogre, and non RP groudon
• Seed Flare is mandatory for STAB and the great chance of lowering the opponents SpD
• Air Slash is the best option for a secondary STAB attack, and the flinch chance helps to rack up damage.
  • HP fire keeps Forretress, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Scizor at bay
  • Earth Power hits Heatran and Dialga, who otherwise wall you.

Additional Comments]

• HP ice can be used to score coverage on Dragons, most notably Rayquaza and Garchomp, who are both OHKO'd.
• An alternate spread of 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe with a Timid nature allows Shaymin-S to produce 101 HP Substitutes, which aid in defeating Blissey and Chansey, and the slight bulk enhancement can come in handy

[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice / Growth
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
ivs: 29 HP

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid/ Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Hide

[Overview]

• Base 127 Speed is great and Base 120 Special Attack is good.
• Serene Grace helps Shaymin-S abuse the Special Defense Drop from Seed Flare and the flinch rate from Air Slash.
• Remains relatively unchanged in Generation 5 as it only received a few minor changes.

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Seed Flare / Leaf Storm
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Hidden Power Ice
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Set Comments:

• With a Choice Scarf attached, Shaymin-S becomes a great revenge killer and can also make a decent lead.
• Seed Flare is the main attack for STAB and the great chance of a Special Defense drop.
• Air Slash complements Seed Flare, gets STAB, and has an awesome flinch rate.
• Earth Power hits common pokemon that resist Air Slash like Dialga, Metagross, and Tyranitar.
• Hidden Power Ice is used to revenge kill Garchomp, opposing Shaymin-S, Salamence, and Dragon Dance Rayquaza that lack Extremespeed.

Additional Comments:

• The nature used depends on what role you want Shaymin-S to perform on your team; a revenge killer would prefer Modest, while the lead set needs Timid to outspeed Choice Scarf Darkrai.
• One of the best offensive counters to Rock Polish Groudon.
• Appreciates a Rapin Spinner and support in the form of entry hazards.
• Lead set has to rely on flinching from Air Slash to beat many opposing leads like Deoxys-S.
• Hidden Power Fire may be used on the lead set to beat Scizor, but this change leaves you vulnerable to opposing Shaymin sets.

Teammates & Counters:

• Pairs well with a Rapid Spinner.
• Mixed Dialga makes a good teammate as it can beat various problematic pokemon like Blissey, Latias, Skarmory, and Adamant Swords Dance Rayquaza.
• Life Orb Gengar lures in Scizor only to beat it with Hidden Power Fire.
• Grass resistant pokemon like Scizor easily beat Shaymin-S.
• Due to their resists, Dialga, Rayquaza, and Latias can also switch into Shaymin-S's attacks and start setting up.

[SET]
name: Substitute + Leech Seed
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Seed Flare
move 4: Air Slash / Hidden Power Fire / Earth Power
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Set Comments:

• Fastest user of Leech Seed in the game barring Jumpluff in the sun and Ludicolo in the rain.
• Its base 120 Special Attack helps to differentiate it from Erufuun who has Mischievous Heart.
• Switch in on something Shaymin-s threatens and then set up with Substitute.

Additional Comments:

• Seed Flare causes many switches due to the Special Defense drop.
• Air Slash gets STAB and works very well with Leech Seed;for example, if the opposing pokemon gets flinched, they still end up taking damage from Leech Seed which can quickly wear the opponent down.
• Hidden Power Fire, Earth Power, and Hidden Power Ice take care of threats like Scizor, Dialga, and Garchomp respectively.

Teammates & Counters:

• Wobbuffet takes advantage of the fact that most players rely on Choice Scarf pokemon to take down Shaymin-S. After you scout then by using Substitute with Shaymin-S, you can revenge kill them later in the match with Wobbuffet. Wobbuffet also gives Shaymin-S a free setup opportunity with Encore.
• Stealth Rock, as well as Spikes, is appreciated by Shaymin-S due to the amount of switches the set causes. Deoxys-S is a great lead and can set up both entry hazards.
• Forretress does the same, but has other utilities like being a reliable rapid spinner and setting up Toxic Spikes which make Shaymin-S harder to stall.
• Shaymin-S loses to Scizor and Skarmory if it lacks Hidden Power Fire.
• Rayquaza sets up on sets without Hidden Power Ice and Dialga sets up on sets that do not have Earth Power.
• If Shaymin-S does not get a Special Defense drop from Seed Flare or a flinch from Air Slash, both Calm Mind Giratina and Calm Mind Giratina-O have the potential to outstall Shaymin-S.
• Groudon makes a fine partner as it can dispatch of Scizor, Skarmory, and Metagross.

[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice / Growth
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
ivs: 29 HP

Set Comments:

• With its great speed and base 120 Special Attack, Shaymin-S can become a dangerous sweeper.
• Its HP IV should be changed to 29 so Shaymin-S can take 11 hits of Life Orb recoil instead of the usual 10.
• Seed Flare, when backed by Life Orb, is what makes Shaymin-S such a potent sweeper because Shaymin-S can get the Special Defense drop.
• Air Slash is secondary STAB and also has a great flinch chance. When paired up with the Special Defense drop from Seed Flare, Air Slash can dispatch of many pokemon that would normally beat Shaymin-S.

Additional Comments:

• Hidden Power Ice can KO Lugia if Lugia recieves a Special Defense drop from Seed Flare. With their Special Defense halved, Latias, Giratina, and GIratina-O are dealt with by Hidden Power Ice.
• Hidden Power Fire sports the ability to KO Scizor in the sun and it also gets the 2HKO on Skarmory.
• Growth now raises the user's Attack and Special Attack. It is an interesting option in that it allows Shaymin to secure KOs on certain pokemon that it would otherwise miss. Leftovers is viable when paired with Growth as it gives Shaymin-S greater survivability.

Teammates & Counters:

• Priority is the enemy of Shaymin-S as the combination of Stealth Rock, recoil damage from Life Orb, and frail defenses makes Shaymin-S easy to revenge kill. Scizor is a fine user of Bullet Punch which KOs a Shaymin-S at 65% and has Pursuit to target any fleeing Shaymin-S which ensure that Shaymin-S dies to Stealth Rock the next time that it switches in.
• Choice Scarfers that outspeed Shaymin-S and resist Seed Flare and Air Slash(Jirachi, Metagross, Heatran, Dialga) make good revenge killers.
• Once again, Wobbuffet easily deals with Choice Scarfers and if Shaymin-S runs Growth, it has the opportunity to setup due to Wobbuffet's Encore.
• Groudon deals with Jirachi and Metagross through Earthquake.

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid/ Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Set Comments:

• Choice Specs gives Shaymin-S immediate power without the need for setting up or the hassle of recoil from Life Orb.
• Seed Flare puts the opponent into a world of hurt if the opposing pokemon does not resist Grass.
• Modest certainly is a viable nature;its main advantage being that Shaymin-S now as a 58% chance to 2HKO Blissey provided that the first Seed Flare gets a Special Defense drop.
• The choice of nature mainly depends on whether outspeeding Darkrai is more useful than the power that a Modest nature supplies.

Additional Comments:

• Defensive Scizor will almost always be 2HKOed by Air Slash.
• Earth Power likewise benefits from the power boost and 2HKOs Dialga, Jirachi, and Metagross.
• The fourth moveslot is a toss up between Hidden Power Ice and Hidden Power Fire. Hidden Power Ice can get KOs on Garchomp and Rayquaza while Hidden Power Fire lets Shaymin-S beat Scizor and Skarmory in sunny weather.

Teammates & Counters:

• Pokemon that can take on Seed Flare generally are the best counters to Shaymin-S.
• Blissey can sponge the hit if it does not get a Special Defense drop and dispatches Shaymin with either Thunder Wave, Ice Beam, or Toxic.
• Skarmory can either Whirlwind Shaymin-S away or KO it with Brave Bird.
• Wobbuffet deals with the Choice Scarfers that would normally revenge kill Shaymin-S.
• Mewtwo with Fire Blast can deal with Scizor.
• When using a Modest nature on Shaymin-S it is appropriate to have a reliable counter to Darkrai, else let it revenge kill Shaymin-S.

[Team Options]

• Shaymin-S needs Stealth Rock to secure various crucial KOs that it otherwise would not reliably get.
• Being weak to Stealth Rock itself, Shaymin-S greatly appreciates a rapid spinner to extend its lifespan.
• Mixed Rayquaza can defeat both Skarmory and Blissey through Fire Blast and Draco Meteor respectively.
• As mentioned many times before, Wobbuffet is a great partner for dealing with all of the Choice Scarfers that Shaymin-S attracts.

[Optional Changes]

• Shaymin-S receives Swords Dance which is a viable option as Shaymin-S has good physical moves in Seed Bomb and Return. Outside of those two moves, Shaymin-S has a relatively barren physical movepool.
• Hidden Power Rock can be used to get a KO on Ho-oh after it has switched into Stealth Rock. Hidden Power Rock also gets 2HKOs on Rayquaza and opposing Shaymin-S
• A Yache Berry can be used to survive Ice Beam, but it is useless against more powerful users of the move.
• Shaymin-S makes a great user of Healing Wish due to its Speed. Healing Wish can give a sweeper another chance at a time when its counter is weakened which can be game-changing.

[Counters]

• Blissey is arguably the most reliable counter to Shaymin-S. It can cripple Shaymin-S with either Toxic or Thunder Wave or beat it with Ice Beam.
• Skarmory comfortably sponges Seed Flare and can either Whirlwind Shaymin-S away or KO it with Brave Bird.
• Scizor is a big problem for Shaymin-S without Hidden Power Fire.
• Although Lugia and Latis fear Air Slash after a Special Defense drop, they can take most of Shaymin-S' attacks and retaliate with Ice Beam and Dragon Pulse respectively for a KO after Stealth Rock damage.
• Dialga, Choice Scarf Heatran, Choice Scarf Jirachi, Choice Scarf Metagross can use their resistances to switch into Shaymin-S and revenge kill.
• Generally pokemon that outspeed Shaymin-S(either with a Choice Scarf or not) will have no problem revenge killing Shaymin-S though they must first scout to see if Shaymin-S does not have its own Choice Scarf.
• Ferrothorn is immune to Leech Seed, sponges Shaymin-S' STAB attacks pretty well and can hit back with a strong Gyro Ball. However, it must be wary of Hidden Power Fire, especially so, if Seed Flare results in a Special Defense drop.
• If Stealth Rock is not on the field, then Ho-oh becomes a great check.

[Dream World]

• Shaymin-S does not receive a Dream World ability.

 

[zapper22001]

I believe this is done. Please check it over to make sure I did everything right.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Fixed some spacing errors, but otherwise looks good; marking this as done.

 

[tomtom5858]

Just a comment on the SDance possibility, Skymin receives Zen Headbutt, courtesy of the Gen4 tutor. This allows it to actually have a SDance set, as opposed to a mixed set. Skymin actually has a decent attack stat, which gets boosted to 610 after the Swords Dance.

Other than that, I think that your sets are good, and Skymin is ready to hax the heck out the opponent, just like in the last generation.

 

[calze6]

Leaf storm is definitely worth a mention on the scarf set as it OHKOes Specs ogre and Seed flare doesn't. Also, note that Growth boosts 2 stages of both attacks in the sun making growth very viable for sweeping and sun great support.

 

[dragonmaster951753]

There also needs to be a mention to a substitute set. Switch in on an earthquake and then hide behind a sub and start blasting away. Behind a sub blissey has a hard time defeating shaymin-s, if it doesn't have sesmic toss, ice beam, or flamethrower, shaymin-s will run it over. Scizor likes to switch in and BP but if shaymin-s is behind a sub, you can hit it with a hidden power fire to end its life and continue on with the sweep, but holding that will mean losing out in Earth Power.

 

[Universal Berry]

You may hate that idea, but...

Ominous Wind.

It could replace HP Ice on the LO set for two things:
- Deals with everything you want to target with HP Ice (Giratina, Lati@s, Lugia)
- 20% of making Shaymin Unfuckingstoppable.

Also, it has a base power only sightly inferior to Hidden Power.

Ok, im not an experienced Uber player and I didnt test it but on paper it seems at least good for OP.

 

[Server_Crash]

A super-effective ominous wind has a lower base power than a neutral seed flare. HP Ice is useful as it hits the dragons that resist grass (Earth power hits Dialga) super-effectively. This gives it 140 BP in most cases. In the event that ominous wind gets its boosts, Scizor, Deoxys and Rayquaza can't even 2HKO it with their respective priority, so it can do something for Skymin. On the other hand, ominous wind is a stupid choice on a choice set (pun), because ominous wind has shitty power, so anything that doesn't fear it can force Skymin out. Defensively, ice beam from Blissey 2HKO's Skymin even with +1 SpD. Offensively, Scarf Mewtwo (a great revenge killer) outspeeds and OHKO's Skymin. Without Earthpower, Dialga doesn't fear anything but incredible hax from Skymin and can force it out with ice beam (a guaranteed 2HKO). This is all without stealth rock. With rocks and life orb damage, Scizor and Ray both nab a 2HKO if they survive Skymin's attack (which is likely as both 4x Resist Seed Flare, but both are neutral to air slash.).

General Point:
Ominous Wind < HP Ice

 

[ZetoTarken]

I think the idea behind Ominous Wind is that out of everything you use HP Ice on only Rayquaza isn't weak to Ghost. Rayquaza is KO'd by Air Slash if it switches in gets a special defense drop on the switch. So of the other things you'd use HP Ice on I believe only Latias and Giratina-A can switch into Seed Flare and survive an Ominous Wind after a special defense drop and Stealth Rock if you're carrying Life Orb.
You lose the ability to revenge kill MixQuaza and outside of that you rarely use HP Ice since the other pokes that its the best move against don't take much damage from it in the first place and they take even less from Ominous Wind. I'm not sure if its worth it but its not straight up terrible.

 

[syrim]

Ho-oh should be mentioned in the counter section as the only thing Shaymin-S is touching it with is air slash, and only the choice specs set it touching it with that move. Obviously this doesn't apply to the sub-seed set, but nitro ho-oh could also be very threatening to that variant. If SR if off the field ho-oh makes an incredibly good switch in to almost every variant of Shaymin-s.

I'm also surprised Nattorei isn't mentioned in the counter section. It takes pitiful damage from shaymin's attacks and is immune to leech seed, and can force shaymin out wit a powerful gyro ball.

 

[Universal Berry]

In fact my point was that Ominous wind has good chances to 2HKO Latias, Giratina and Lugia after they switch in on a seed flare and has their special defense dropped.

also i agree that nattorei is a pretty hard counter.

EDIT: Maybe not the first option i agree but at least it needs a mention.

 

[shrang]

Ominous Wind -> OC at best o_0

 

[zapper22001]

I included everything that was mentioned in the last couple of posts.

 

[Darkamber8828]

HP Fire should be slashed on the scarf set. It catches Scizor/Natt/Shuba/Forry on the switch for massive damage, and Shaymin-s, with its unique speed tier, loses nothing except tying with other Shaymin-s.

Also, maybe slash Specs with Scarf? Air Slash spam hits like a truck with it, and I don't think it's different enough from Scarf to deserve its own set-slot.

 

[IcyMan28]

The Scarf set makes a great revenger though, moreso with HP Ice than HP Fire. Being able to sweep is a perk, but if it can't pull it off it isn't the end of the world. I'd much rather be able to revenge Ray and get a solid neutral or SE hit on the majority of the tier than worry about Scizor, Forry, or Thorn (the latter two of which take neutral damage from Air Slash).

 

[zapper22001]

Seems like a good idea.

 

[Fireburn]

Got everything covered.

QC APPROVED (1/2)

 

[trickroom]

Slash in Leaf Storm over Seed Flare on the Choice Scarf set because it can OHKO Kyogre, which is something Seed Flare fails to do so. Seed Flare should remain the primary option though.

QC APPROVED (2/2)

 

[Sphyxius]

A super-effective ominous wind has a lower base power than a neutral seed flare.

But the targets he cited resist seed flare.

 

[zapper22001]

Slash in Leaf Storm over Seed Flare on the Choice Scarf set because it can OHKO Kyogre, which is something Seed Flare fails to do so. Seed Flare should remain the primary option though.

Okay. I'll start working on this.

 

[Fatecrashers]

giggity69 is now working on this

firecape edit: go away I wanted to post that ;_;

 

[Splendiferous]

HP fire can also be used to kill nattorei and forretress.

 

[giggity69]

HP fire can also be used to kill nattorei and forretress.

Yes, and it is already mentioned everywhere it needs to be. QC, is there anything else that needs to be changed, or do the stamps still stand?

 

[firecape]

I've used SubSeed extensively and find 252 HP/ 4 SpA / 252 Spe definitely worth mentioning in AC. The 101 HP substitutes can be really helpful vs Blissey and make it more bulky overall.

Other than that all good.

 

[giggity69]

I've used SubSeed extensively and find 252 HP/ 4 SpA / 252 Spe definitely worth mentioning in AC. The 101 HP substitutes can be really helpful vs Blissey and make it more bulky overall.

Other than that all good.

Ok, 252 HP/ 4 SpA / 252 Spe has been ac'd