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Smogon University PO Statistics — October 2011
- Thread starter Antar
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Here is the thing about Dragonite. People just assume that SR is on the field, so they overlook Multiscale completely. With Ferrotroll still such a common Pokemon, it is not hard to see why.
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Then you are simply not facing good players. Dragonite at plus 1 is going to inflict damage to a lot of things, but it still has its counters, things that totally wall it, and a huge weakness to status.
Honestly, I use one on a lot of my teams, and it's a bit over-rated.... for number 1.
Oh, and about status:
DON'T. USE. TOXIC.
People, for crying out loud, EVERY SINGLE OTHER STATUS WORKS BETTER! /endallcapsrage
And also, I've had even more sweeps with DD Haxorus than I have with DDNite under the same conditions. Just saying.
DON'T. USE. TOXIC.
People, for crying out loud, EVERY SINGLE OTHER STATUS WORKS BETTER! /endallcapsrage
And also, I've had even more sweeps with DD Haxorus than I have with DDNite under the same conditions. Just saying.
I really find it sad how garchomp is even forgot about. With scarfrom and dialga, he doesnt even stand a chance against these heavy threats. He should come back to OU, and maybe kill off these overpopulated dnites! Honestly he wasnt that overpowered. Thundurus and all throwing priority t-waves and subs, but garchomp was a good sweeper in sand. Now all we can wait is for garchomp to drop to OU and use a great pokemon again
The only reason Garchomp was banned was because of Sand Veil.....and seriously with all the politoed's running around and Sand being A LOT less common because of the Excedrill ban...I can only hope that Chomp can drop back down and assist Haxorous in killing off all the Dragonites that are overpopulated. Deer season opener is also Dragonite season opener.
Amen to that. He was my favorite of the dragons. Such a nice bulky attacker, and yet so fast...
Salamence an Uber last gen. Meaning he was really fucking good. And what really has changed since then to make him a less effective sweeper? Nothing, only that Dragonite now "outclasses him" because of a single ability that is negated by both Stealth Rock and Sandstorm.
The fact of the matter is, nothing can switch into Salamence. With just that one set composed of Fire Blast, Outrage/D-claw, EQ, and DD there are literally no safe switch ins. He is without a single hard counter, as, with the right prediction, can take out anything you send his way. Because unless you want to tank a non-resisted +1 Outrage, your gonna need to send in that Steel, and if you send in the Steel, prepare to be slaughtered by his coverage moves. Dragonite, on the other hand, can make no such claim. Dragonite sets are often hard-countered by Skarmory, unless rain is up in which case you can head to your everyday special wall (seriously those rain sets are so weak...). In fact, unless it wants to be walled even harder by Skarmory (no Fire Punch) or easily worn down (no Roost), almost every Steel in the game can handle it. Fire Punch just isn't that strong. You can now send in all your grounded steels like Jirachi and shit. Even Ferrothorn isn't OHKOed by Fire Punch from the standard set after a DD. That's just sad. The reason status is often cited as a major downside to Dragonite is not because he is especially vulnerable to it, but simply because he is too weak to take walls out before they status him.
As I said before, the only difference from this gen to the last is Multiscale. Without that, Salamence would outclass Dragonite just as hard as he always had. I don't think anyone can argue that there has been some other factor making Dragonite suddenly better than Salamence besides this. It has always had Extremespeed, and was still outclassed for the most part. So if Multiscale is the only thing that has changed, then whenever Stealth Rock is up, Salamence is immedietly better than Dragonite. And it's really not that hard to keep it up. Ferrothorn can come in on every common spinner and put it again up without a problem.
And it's not like Salamence doesn't get his own great ability. I would argue that Intimidate is a much more reliable ability than Multiscale because it isn't just one-time use or dependent on SR not being up. It increases Salamences physical bulk effectively to 95/120 (far better than Dragonite), for the one turn he needs it, that turn where he sets up the single DD he'll use to sweep your entire team.
Edit: One more note I wanted to add. In the days of Excadrill, when scarfers were often shunned, Dragonite's lesser speed than wasn't as much of an issue because after a DD it's gonna outspeed basically everything that Salamence would outspeed. But now that he's gone, scarfers should start popping up again, making Salamence's superior speed once again a deciding factor. While I believe Dragonite may have been better before, I think he's certainly outclassed now.
Multiscale isn't the only difference. Drizzle and Hurricane allowed two new Rain sets to be formed. They add to his versatility.
Sandstorm means nothing to Dnite with Lefties.
Offensive DD at +1 and Band easily ohko standard Ferro with Fire Punch, Bulky DD at +1 has 40% to ohko, over 70% with SR. What is the standard Dnite IYO? Bold?
Multiscale is one time use...? Aren't you talking about Intimidate working only on the opponent Mence switches into? With Roost you can abuse Multiscale over and over.
Sandstorm means nothing to Dnite with Lefties.
Offensive DD at +1 and Band easily ohko standard Ferro with Fire Punch, Bulky DD at +1 has 40% to ohko, over 70% with SR. What is the standard Dnite IYO? Bold?
Multiscale is one time use...? Aren't you talking about Intimidate working only on the opponent Mence switches into? With Roost you can abuse Multiscale over and over.
Read suspect threads one more time. Even without SV he would still be a suspect.
Dragonite is better in Rain than Salamance.... come back when Salamence gets Hurricane and Thunder.
Salamence can actually get past Skarmory. Dragonite can't.
Dragonite has many ways to get past Skarmory. +1 Fire Punch, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Thunder, etc.
Whether or not Dragonite is a better DD Sweeper than Salamence is arguable. However, I have to say that Dragonite is an overall better mon than Salamence, which is reflected by the usage difference. With Roost + Lefties, Multiscale can really make a difference, and lets Dragonite set up on ridiculous things / makes it harder to revenge kill. It also helps with its tanking capabilities, and combine that with Dragon Tail, DNite transforms into a NASTY tank (see M Dragon's Rain Stall team). ExtremeSpeed lets DNite to be a useful revenge killer for HO teams.
You can't underestimate Mixed Rain Dragonite either. If you can keep Rain up, Dragonite virtually 2HKOs the entire metagame with Hurricane + Aqua Tail + ExtremeSpeed powered by LO. Jirachi (Aqua Tail), Skarmory (Hurricane), Jellicent (Hurricane), Ttar (Aqua Tail), Ferrothorn (Hurricane), Blissey (Aqua Tail), Latias (Hurricane + ESpeed) - all 2HKOs. Only Chansey and Hippowdon are relatively safe switch-ins to this beast. I honestly feel that its independence from Draco Meteor and its access to +2 ExtremeSpeed makes this set more appealing than MixMence, other than the huge dependence on Rain.
Speaking of Rain, I am surprised that players are choosing Politoed more often than Tyranitar - did not expect the loss of Excadrill to cause this drastic shift. I also haven't seen any Gastrodons at all... :x
Whether or not Dragonite is a better DD Sweeper than Salamence is arguable. However, I have to say that Dragonite is an overall better mon than Salamence, which is reflected by the usage difference. With Roost + Lefties, Multiscale can really make a difference, and lets Dragonite set up on ridiculous things / makes it harder to revenge kill. It also helps with its tanking capabilities, and combine that with Dragon Tail, DNite transforms into a NASTY tank (see M Dragon's Rain Stall team). ExtremeSpeed lets DNite to be a useful revenge killer for HO teams.
You can't underestimate Mixed Rain Dragonite either. If you can keep Rain up, Dragonite virtually 2HKOs the entire metagame with Hurricane + Aqua Tail + ExtremeSpeed powered by LO. Jirachi (Aqua Tail), Skarmory (Hurricane), Jellicent (Hurricane), Ttar (Aqua Tail), Ferrothorn (Hurricane), Blissey (Aqua Tail), Latias (Hurricane + ESpeed) - all 2HKOs. Only Chansey and Hippowdon are relatively safe switch-ins to this beast. I honestly feel that its independence from Draco Meteor and its access to +2 ExtremeSpeed makes this set more appealing than MixMence, other than the huge dependence on Rain.
Speaking of Rain, I am surprised that players are choosing Politoed more often than Tyranitar - did not expect the loss of Excadrill to cause this drastic shift. I also haven't seen any Gastrodons at all... :x
If Hurricane + Thunder combination doesn't cripple your team in more ways than one, its DDset will have you for breakfast.
It's got nothing to do with Salamence. He can abuse the mixed-varient he posseses because DM/FB/BB will gape huge holes in the opponents team AND removes sceening effects whilst on the offense. DDLumNite can now sweep even easier once Salamence has drawn out the opponents' Dragon counter.
Together, your stall team will have issues dealing with these two pokemon; this is not including the fact there's 4 other pokemon the opponent has waiting in his team.
Latios and Haxorus, together, tear the metagame apart with their Outrage/Draco Meteor showers of high-based powered moves that tortue the enemy into falling way out of their comfort zone.
Excadrill was broken because it had Sand Rush, which required Tyranitar more so than not to pose as a game-winning threat.
It can be considered a similar explanation as to why the majority of people complain about a single threat when, and I won't say this for too long after, it's how well that team is built in executing the metgame's most deadliest strategies in order to win.
It's got nothing to do with Salamence. He can abuse the mixed-varient he posseses because DM/FB/BB will gape huge holes in the opponents team AND removes sceening effects whilst on the offense. DDLumNite can now sweep even easier once Salamence has drawn out the opponents' Dragon counter.
Together, your stall team will have issues dealing with these two pokemon; this is not including the fact there's 4 other pokemon the opponent has waiting in his team.
Latios and Haxorus, together, tear the metagame apart with their Outrage/Draco Meteor showers of high-based powered moves that tortue the enemy into falling way out of their comfort zone.
Excadrill was broken because it had Sand Rush, which required Tyranitar more so than not to pose as a game-winning threat.
It can be considered a similar explanation as to why the majority of people complain about a single threat when, and I won't say this for too long after, it's how well that team is built in executing the metgame's most deadliest strategies in order to win.
Seems like things are a bit more stable in OU now... and Dragonite is the king....... interesting. Also, yay, Machamp is at #5 in UU
Is it me, or are the Salamance fan-boys QQing? I have used both Salamance and Dragonite a lot. I over all found Dragonite way better. Not only is it more versatile, it also can swap in and try to DD sweep more then once, with roost and multi scale setup is easier. Skar and thron are not much of a issue. Dragonite can get by both of them with little trouble. Outside of mix attacking I can't think of a reason to use Salamance over Dragonite. :/
Yeah they're way off base lol. Dragonite is leagues better than Salamence, I don't even know why they're bringing this up now.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3904790&postcount=11
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3904902&postcount=16
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3905207&postcount=22
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3904902&postcount=16
PK Gaming said:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3905207&postcount=22
As a primarily nostalgic Pokémon lover, I can only say I'm very happy to see Dragonite up there. After four generations, of first being a gimmick (an effective gimmick, but a gimmick nonetheless as the only fully evolved Dragon type in a game without Dragon moves), then living in the shadow of a more powerful cousin, it has finally stepped into the limelight.
Back in the days, Dragonite was the epitome of cool. It was hard to get (anybody who claimed to have caught a Dratini/Dragonair without consulting a guide was a blatant liar), it was the only effin' Dragon type, it had strong stats and a movepool beyond comprehension for us seven-year-olds. Anybody could get a Charizard, a Gengar or a Rhydon, but only the cool guys had a Dragonite. However, it kinda stopped being exciting after learning Hyper Beam. Outrage in gen. II helped, but And when the battle system had been sufficiently fleshed out, I'd say that happened in gen. III, everybody had got a new, scary strong toy in Salamence. I still loved Dragonite, though, and would use it over 'Mence any day (I got trashed in battles with friends, but so what?). I still don't play much competitively, but I'm very glad to see the day when the best battlers in the world discuss whether it trashes Salamence completely or is only on par with it, and the metagame as a whole has declared Dragonite their favourite, at least for the time being.
Congratulations, Dragonite, you made it. Make the best out of your time in the limelight. Some might remember you for some time, because of the impact you made on the metagame. We old-schoolers never forgot you for that magic moment when Dragonair rose to lvl. 55.
Now waiting for Charizard to become as cool and powerful as we remember it to be.
Sorry to stray off-topic, but I had a little nostalgic moment there.
Back in the days, Dragonite was the epitome of cool. It was hard to get (anybody who claimed to have caught a Dratini/Dragonair without consulting a guide was a blatant liar), it was the only effin' Dragon type, it had strong stats and a movepool beyond comprehension for us seven-year-olds. Anybody could get a Charizard, a Gengar or a Rhydon, but only the cool guys had a Dragonite. However, it kinda stopped being exciting after learning Hyper Beam. Outrage in gen. II helped, but And when the battle system had been sufficiently fleshed out, I'd say that happened in gen. III, everybody had got a new, scary strong toy in Salamence. I still loved Dragonite, though, and would use it over 'Mence any day (I got trashed in battles with friends, but so what?). I still don't play much competitively, but I'm very glad to see the day when the best battlers in the world discuss whether it trashes Salamence completely or is only on par with it, and the metagame as a whole has declared Dragonite their favourite, at least for the time being.
Congratulations, Dragonite, you made it. Make the best out of your time in the limelight. Some might remember you for some time, because of the impact you made on the metagame. We old-schoolers never forgot you for that magic moment when Dragonair rose to lvl. 55.
Now waiting for Charizard to become as cool and powerful as we remember it to be.
Sorry to stray off-topic, but I had a little nostalgic moment there.
I´m surprised Rotom-W is 3rd and not 1st.
I mean, I´ve been counting and I´ve battled against a Rotom-W in my last 104 battles. I haven´t seen a team with no Rotom-W in ages.
I seriously am starting to think Rotom-W should be banned. It isn´t broken like things like Garchomp or Thundurus, but damnit, that thing is centralizing too much the metagame.
I mean, I´ve been counting and I´ve battled against a Rotom-W in my last 104 battles. I haven´t seen a team with no Rotom-W in ages.
I seriously am starting to think Rotom-W should be banned. It isn´t broken like things like Garchomp or Thundurus, but damnit, that thing is centralizing too much the metagame.
Rotom-W is everywhere, yes, but it's not that hard to kill, and there are PLENTY of counters for it. I really don't think it's overcentalizing. Rotom-W will never get banned, nor does it deserve to be (neither did Excadrill, IMO). I'm sorry.
Do you really want Garchomp back in OU, when we have crazy-high defense Steel-types like Skarmory that can come in on an Outrage and do anything it pleases for the next turn or two? And don't bring up Fire Punch, since 252/232+ Skarmory takes 40.7% - 48.5% from a +1 44 Atk Dragonite with an Adamant nature.
I will redirect you to this post made by Gen. Empoleon in another thread.
His post kinda contradicts what you say, but makes sense. It would centralize the metagame if he came back, sort of like gliscor was on every team in case that excadrill wanted to make an appearance. The fact is garchomp is simply outclassed in uber, with everything with simular speed. Do you think he can survive a choice specs rain boosted first turn water spout? Even anything can take him out. This is simular to sports. Would you rather be the best player on the worst team or worst on the best team? If roserade reached OU, good chance she wouldnt have as much success(not saying she'll suck). At least bring him back to OU to test him out, because i havent seen 1 garchomp ever since last gen.
Tiers don't work that way, bud. Ubers and OU have a different relationship than OU and UU; Ubers is by brokenness; OU is by usage.
It doesn't matter if Garchomp is underpowered in Ubers. If he's too good for OU he needs to get the boot.
And Garchomp was #15 in the month when he was banned halfway through; wonder where you were when Sub+SD was running amok.
It doesn't matter if Garchomp is underpowered in Ubers. If he's too good for OU he needs to get the boot.
And Garchomp was #15 in the month when he was banned halfway through; wonder where you were when Sub+SD was running amok.
Garchomp had his test, he doesn't warrant another. Try stating your case, once the meta has had large enough changes to warrant it. PS not being used in Ubers has nothing to do with him being allowed in OU.
To everyone saying Dragonite can get past Skarmory guaranteed:
252 +1 Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory: 47.31% - 55.69% (this is with Adamant, do the calc yourself if you don't believe me)
4 SpAtk Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Skarmory: 98.2% - 115.57%
Dragonite can get past Skarmory? My ass. That shit's getting hit by a Whirlwind.
252 +1 Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory: 47.31% - 55.69% (this is with Adamant, do the calc yourself if you don't believe me)
4 SpAtk Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Skarmory: 98.2% - 115.57%
Dragonite can get past Skarmory? My ass. That shit's getting hit by a Whirlwind.
To further this claim:
| 352 | Arceus-Psychic | 3 | 0.020% | 1.67±1.25 | 7.67±3.30 |
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