Yes to CoD: Black Ops, no to the rest.
Also, yes to fifa 12.
Also, yes to fifa 12.
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Smogon's Top Video Games List - Stage 2 (Current topic - REDEMPTIONS)
- Thread starter WaterBomb
- Start date
I found Dragon Age's combat system to be frustrating and clumsy. I gave up early on because the NPCs wouldn't do what I told them to do. I didn't make it very far so I have no other opinions on the game but that's what made me quit playing.
As for LoL, I'm one of the Smogoners who plays but I quite honestly mainly care about it for the social experience. Gameplay wise, I don't feel like it offers anything incredibly special. You have the different champions but with only 4 maps (even the most generic of FPS games carries more than that), the game eventually gets repetitive. Fun? Yes. One of the greatest games of all time? No.
As for LoL, I'm one of the Smogoners who plays but I quite honestly mainly care about it for the social experience. Gameplay wise, I don't feel like it offers anything incredibly special. You have the different champions but with only 4 maps (even the most generic of FPS games carries more than that), the game eventually gets repetitive. Fun? Yes. One of the greatest games of all time? No.
Play torment. If there is one thing I want to get out of this venture it is to get some people to pick up that game, because it is incredible.
To be honest, dragon age origins did not excite me all that much. Everything about it was good, but nothing about it seemed great to me. Possibly because I spent the whole time comparing it to torment, and it was never going to come off well in that scenario..
I think it is probably worth considering for a top 100 list, but, I wouldnt want it in the final product.
I really had hoped redemptions would like, consider more games than this.. I missed the vote on nethack, and it got eliminated despite no down votes. It is the masterpiece of ascii gaming, and if I was going to play only one game for the rest of my life it would be nethack.
Another vote for madden 05; the hit stick was awesome, and it really was the best madden game that I've ever played. I often went back to Madden 05 after playing 08 or 09, despite still enjoying the other games in the series. I think that the Madden series as a whole deserves some representation in the top 100 list, and that Madden 05 is the best Madden game.
For League of Legends, I'm in a similar boat as Age of Kings. I mostly got into league for the social aspect. But the very fact that it has such broad appeal and spread owes something to the game's design. It's incredibly simple for a MOBA game, for better or worse. For hardcore HoN and DOTA 2 players, it may not feel quite as rewarding. However, the graphics are much better in League (especially in the case of HoN), the gameplay is more inviting, and well, more people play league of legends. I cannot say that League of Legends is my favorite game of all time, but it's fun if you let it be fun. Similarly, it's incredibly dull if you let it become a grind. It's not a perfect game; the balance is pretty good but not great (screw you yorick and kayle), the community can be frustrating, and -- as the voting shows -- the game and/or game style turns off a lot of people. I should know; I played league up until around level 6 about a year and a half ago, and only about 3 months ago picked it back up. However, it's grown on me and become a game that I now enjoy, largely in the presence of friends. I'm sorry that this is getting to become a bit of a ramble, but if there's anything you take from this, know that league of legends is a fun game and is both the most played game in the world and now the biggest e-sport for a very good reason.
I played frogger and frogger clones before. I'm not sure what was supposed to be fun about it. It plays like something you'd find in the addictinggames catalog of games, play for 20 minutes and never touch again. I'd say no there.
The rest of the games mentioned I have little experience with, from prince of persia to pretty much everything else mentioned to this point. I played fifa 12 once but it didn't wow me; I loved fifa 98 though! WOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOO
For League of Legends, I'm in a similar boat as Age of Kings. I mostly got into league for the social aspect. But the very fact that it has such broad appeal and spread owes something to the game's design. It's incredibly simple for a MOBA game, for better or worse. For hardcore HoN and DOTA 2 players, it may not feel quite as rewarding. However, the graphics are much better in League (especially in the case of HoN), the gameplay is more inviting, and well, more people play league of legends. I cannot say that League of Legends is my favorite game of all time, but it's fun if you let it be fun. Similarly, it's incredibly dull if you let it become a grind. It's not a perfect game; the balance is pretty good but not great (screw you yorick and kayle), the community can be frustrating, and -- as the voting shows -- the game and/or game style turns off a lot of people. I should know; I played league up until around level 6 about a year and a half ago, and only about 3 months ago picked it back up. However, it's grown on me and become a game that I now enjoy, largely in the presence of friends. I'm sorry that this is getting to become a bit of a ramble, but if there's anything you take from this, know that league of legends is a fun game and is both the most played game in the world and now the biggest e-sport for a very good reason.
I played frogger and frogger clones before. I'm not sure what was supposed to be fun about it. It plays like something you'd find in the addictinggames catalog of games, play for 20 minutes and never touch again. I'd say no there.
The rest of the games mentioned I have little experience with, from prince of persia to pretty much everything else mentioned to this point. I played fifa 12 once but it didn't wow me; I loved fifa 98 though! WOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOO
Most MMO are a slightly more expensive equivalent of IRC with built in Tetris, seriously, MMO "gameplay" is mostly fucking retarded.
WoW was worthwhile early on in its existence, even if the balance was fucking horrible 95% of the time.
You can still try to get the game redempted, even if its not listed, I think. And I do agree with NetHack being a great game, its very challenging, fun and has lots of replayability, and can be even humorous at times due to the random nature of the game
Also, agreeing with DA:O being redempted, its a brilliant RPG and while I found the story itself to be just decent, I felt the way it was told and how you interacted with other characters was brilliant.
I would also like to back up League of Legends. I would argue for DotA to be redeemed as well, but I haven't played it, so I can't make a case that it's one of my top video games :P
As DLE says, LoL may not necessarily appeal to those who already play other, similar games, but a great amount of its appeal relies on its accessibility. It's a fantastically well-made game (even if the client is buggy as fuck because of Adobe AIR and, like all games, it has moronic glitches, you have to admit the production of the game itself is pretty good, and they're continually improving it). It's designed to be intuitive mechanically (only some very old skills are not, and they're fixing those gradually). It does have a steep learning curve (yes, HoN players, LoL has a considerable learning curve for those who have never played similar games before), but it's designed to be accessible every step of the way, so that the learning process is rewarding and has visible results. With all the variables the game has, the constant decisions that face you every minute of each match make every game different and as such give it a longevity many other online games don't have; you can play LoL for hundreds of hours and not have scratched the surface. If you like competitive games, winning is intoxicating, and I believe it takes quite some time for LoL to get old because of a combination of that and the simple, ever-expanding amount of content.
Another weird thing I consider here is what an impact LoL has had on 'esports'. I'm not saying it's Starcraft, but Riot have invested an incredible amount of money in promoting and funding all levels of League of Legends competition, and it's gained worldwide popularity as a competitive game. Professional players streaming regularly attract thousands of viewers at any given hour, and the LoL matches at IPL4 had hundreds of thousands of people watching the streams. While I wouldn't say popularity makes a game amazing, it does demonstrate that LoL has become incredibly prominent and is drawing significant attention to esports outside of Korea (where production values of LoL events can be staggering -- hopefully one day we'll see that outside of Korea). This in my opinion adds to the game's merits, the same way you'd consider how a particular RPG revolutionised the genre.
Like DLE and AoK, the primary reason I play LoL is because many of my friends do and I enjoy playing with them. I would not play the game if every single person I knew stopped, because, let's face it, playing this kind of game by yourself is not as enjoyable -- all the major multiplayer competitive games I'm aware of have shitty communities, when it comes right down to it. But I would miss it greatly, because I love the gameplay as much as I love the social experience it provides as a multiplayer game.
As DLE says, LoL may not necessarily appeal to those who already play other, similar games, but a great amount of its appeal relies on its accessibility. It's a fantastically well-made game (even if the client is buggy as fuck because of Adobe AIR and, like all games, it has moronic glitches, you have to admit the production of the game itself is pretty good, and they're continually improving it). It's designed to be intuitive mechanically (only some very old skills are not, and they're fixing those gradually). It does have a steep learning curve (yes, HoN players, LoL has a considerable learning curve for those who have never played similar games before), but it's designed to be accessible every step of the way, so that the learning process is rewarding and has visible results. With all the variables the game has, the constant decisions that face you every minute of each match make every game different and as such give it a longevity many other online games don't have; you can play LoL for hundreds of hours and not have scratched the surface. If you like competitive games, winning is intoxicating, and I believe it takes quite some time for LoL to get old because of a combination of that and the simple, ever-expanding amount of content.
Another weird thing I consider here is what an impact LoL has had on 'esports'. I'm not saying it's Starcraft, but Riot have invested an incredible amount of money in promoting and funding all levels of League of Legends competition, and it's gained worldwide popularity as a competitive game. Professional players streaming regularly attract thousands of viewers at any given hour, and the LoL matches at IPL4 had hundreds of thousands of people watching the streams. While I wouldn't say popularity makes a game amazing, it does demonstrate that LoL has become incredibly prominent and is drawing significant attention to esports outside of Korea (where production values of LoL events can be staggering -- hopefully one day we'll see that outside of Korea). This in my opinion adds to the game's merits, the same way you'd consider how a particular RPG revolutionised the genre.
Like DLE and AoK, the primary reason I play LoL is because many of my friends do and I enjoy playing with them. I would not play the game if every single person I knew stopped, because, let's face it, playing this kind of game by yourself is not as enjoyable -- all the major multiplayer competitive games I'm aware of have shitty communities, when it comes right down to it. But I would miss it greatly, because I love the gameplay as much as I love the social experience it provides as a multiplayer game.
I think LittleBigPlanet should get a chance at redemption. It's an amazing game with a whole lot of charm, allowing you to create any level you wish, play it and share it with the rest of the world, aswell as 4 player multi-play on around 2-3 million different user created levels (7 million on LBP2). Not to mention being able to customize your own Sackboy. The only limit is your own imagination.
I have no idea why so many people voted no on it (though it only just missed out on a 1:1 by 1 vote). Hopefully there will some people who agree with me.
I have no idea why so many people voted no on it (though it only just missed out on a 1:1 by 1 vote). Hopefully there will some people who agree with me.
I think if a game so heavily relies on the community which doesn't and won't always pull through, it's not the game itself that is "Top 100" quality. For instance, I (along with a decent amount of other Smogoners: Xaqwais, tennisace, reyscarface...) played RotMG for a while and it was great fun. But after a while the game started to lose appeal and for me what really ended my interest in the game was the shitty community. So essentially I feel like the game itself isn't very good because when the community element was removed, I had no more desire to play it. Another example would be a game like Rock Band. How much fun can you really have playing Rock Band by yourself? If you need other people to make the game fun, the game isn't that good by itself, or should at least be categorized separately from games that don't require others
You guys are really gonna try and argue that any multiplayer game is not eligible for quality? Like seriously? Stop trying to argue away whole genres and styles of game, that is exactly how not to make a reasonable list. If a strong multiplayer game can attract a large and thriving community, then YEEEEEES it is worth looking at.
Was it not you earlier in the thread who disagreed with the idea of eliminating games that don't reach a certain threshold of votes due to the voting becoming a popularity contest?
Now you're saying popularity is in fact something that is an indicator of objective quality?
/devil's advocate
You're right, I am and have always been against eliminating games before we have had the chance to talk about their qualities. My stand on this has not changed. The idea that any multi player game, essentially any fighting game, real time strategy, and to a lesser extent first person shooters, the idea that these games might have no objective quality, no tradecraft is such non logic it is fucking ridiculous. I have no patience for game criticism that consists of "this genre sucks".
Take it from a guy who is making a multiplayer game. I've put hard work and sweat equity into ensuring that it is as awesome and tight as possible. Hopefully it attracts a following to reflect that.
i've been playing nethack for the past few days and the sheer depth of this game is already evident. i'm a +1 for giving it further consideration.
There are two elements that make Sands of Time one of the best platformers ever. For starters it created a schism in platforming games with a focus on hanging onto ledges and running across walls, going from cartoonish double jumps to relatively more realistic free running. As platform games are supposed to liberating and freeing, feeling as if your character is actually doing the things is a glorious experience the first time anyone plays a game like this. The above was copied by Tomb Raider Legends, Shadow of the Colossus, Assassin's Creed, Uncharted, etc. It's a massive subgenre of platforming now.
The second element did not become a genre mainstay, but only because if another game stole it then they'd probably be criticized heavily. The Sands of Time allowed the player to rewind deaths, allowing for a game that had its challenges but was still pure uninterrupted fun. Except for the shitty combat. But the game still warrants a high spot on the top 100.
More games:
Civilizations is one the most fun and engaging strategy games ever made. They still make them and people still enjoy them even now when turn based strategy is a dying genre. Civ 5 for it's part massively improved upon earlier versions by introducing a hexagonal grid and preventing units from stacking, leading to more geographic oriented strategy.
I know people hate capcom right now. I know Marvel vs. Capcom 3 was disappointing, and for no one more than me. But the only reason we even got a third game was because fans of the second one spent years petitioning for it. MvC2 has its balance problems, but with one of the largest fighting game rosters ever and extremely fast tag team fights it was one of the most fun and beloved fighting games ever made. This is one of this NO votes that just stuns me.
Finally this is gonna matter quite a bit in the next stage, but to redeem the following three games I need to explain a concept I take to heart when it comes to game design;
Gesamkuntswerk
It's an opera term. Since opera was a multimedia art form long before video games existed, this guy named Richard Wagner came up with an ideal design aesthetic called Gesamkuntswerk. It means total artwork, and Wagner said that if the acting, music, costumes, and effects were all irreplaceable in an opera, then the opera itself would have more artistic merit than the sum of its parts. Now Wagner died believing that no opera had achieved this ideal, so either he was a stuffy guy or opera is not as good as video games, cause I can think of a handful of gesamkuntswerks and most of them are in the pool. HOWEVER;
Metroid Fusion
Metroid was always loosely inspired by the movie Aliens. But when you take an already creepy atmosphere, chilling music, and seamlessly combine the core gameplay with science fiction storytelling you get a game that is worth more than the sum of its parts. To just redeem the game I won't talk about every single way in which this fusion works (hah, get it), so I'll just talk about one of them.
The game tells of the X, an alien parasite inspired by The Thing. It's predator were the Metroids, an energy absorbing lifeform. Since the Metroids have all been killed however, the X are now running loose on their home planet until a research team led by Samus finds them. Samus's body is horribly disfigured and only saved from an injection made from the baby Metroid she saved in Metroid 2.
In this way Samus becomes the new predator to the X. Whenever an enemy is killed the parasite flees the body, fleeing from Samus before being absorbed for health. Again, just one way in which the story and the core gameplay fit hand in hand. Like all Metroid games you have to gain powers to progress. The military sends you these via data rooms. At first this seems just the game's equivalent of the chozo statues. But the X are fucking smart, being able to absorb and mimick human intelligence. They start destroying data rooms, and even stealing your powers before you can get them.
To get to undestroyed data rooms you have to disengage locks in the station, but this allows the X to cause more damage and enact more intelligent plans. But you gotta do this because you gotta get more of your powers back, because you are hunted as well. The SA-X is an X using your full power stolen from you during the first X run in. Now get this shit; You have become a Metroid which is the predator of the X. But the SA-X has become SAMUS ARAN, which was the predator of the Metroids. IT'S SO FUCKING GOOD. That was may more than one thing but it's so fucking good. If I were to compare gameplay alone, I'd say Metroid Prime is better. But again, a gesamkuntswerk is worth more than the sum of its parts, and that's exactly what Fusion is. It is the definitive science fiction game.
Resident Evil REmake
Resident Evil has always had intentionally stupid voice acting and B-movie cut scenes that betrayed what was actually a rich narrative in the form of documents left throughout the first three games. The remake of Resident Evil 1 is synonymous with the concept of a good video game remake down to the point where fans usually just call it REmake. The story takes itself more seriously and this actually turned out to be a good thing. Because now the fight for survival in a horror atmosphere actually feels more real. But more than that as a game itself there were great advances here. Earlier RE games had you managing health and ammo. I think REmake is a testament to great level design in how it forces you to manage pathways. You will have to go through certain locations many times and there are several different routes you can take to any, but whenever you get too comfortable with one it always throws a monkey wrench in the form of a broken door or a flood of zombies. Earlier RE games I love em but 2/3 of the way through the game you acquire way too much ammo. REmake keeps you on edge the whole time.
Skies of Arcadia
I don't know if anyone else voted yes, but I didn't nominate this game. Someone else beat me to it. This game is adventure. Not an adventure game, it is pure distilled adventure. If you took every significant exploration in our real world history and put them into one game where you are also sky pirates, this is exactly what it would feel like.
The second element did not become a genre mainstay, but only because if another game stole it then they'd probably be criticized heavily. The Sands of Time allowed the player to rewind deaths, allowing for a game that had its challenges but was still pure uninterrupted fun. Except for the shitty combat. But the game still warrants a high spot on the top 100.
More games:
Civilizations is one the most fun and engaging strategy games ever made. They still make them and people still enjoy them even now when turn based strategy is a dying genre. Civ 5 for it's part massively improved upon earlier versions by introducing a hexagonal grid and preventing units from stacking, leading to more geographic oriented strategy.
I know people hate capcom right now. I know Marvel vs. Capcom 3 was disappointing, and for no one more than me. But the only reason we even got a third game was because fans of the second one spent years petitioning for it. MvC2 has its balance problems, but with one of the largest fighting game rosters ever and extremely fast tag team fights it was one of the most fun and beloved fighting games ever made. This is one of this NO votes that just stuns me.
Finally this is gonna matter quite a bit in the next stage, but to redeem the following three games I need to explain a concept I take to heart when it comes to game design;
Gesamkuntswerk
It's an opera term. Since opera was a multimedia art form long before video games existed, this guy named Richard Wagner came up with an ideal design aesthetic called Gesamkuntswerk. It means total artwork, and Wagner said that if the acting, music, costumes, and effects were all irreplaceable in an opera, then the opera itself would have more artistic merit than the sum of its parts. Now Wagner died believing that no opera had achieved this ideal, so either he was a stuffy guy or opera is not as good as video games, cause I can think of a handful of gesamkuntswerks and most of them are in the pool. HOWEVER;
Metroid Fusion
Metroid was always loosely inspired by the movie Aliens. But when you take an already creepy atmosphere, chilling music, and seamlessly combine the core gameplay with science fiction storytelling you get a game that is worth more than the sum of its parts. To just redeem the game I won't talk about every single way in which this fusion works (hah, get it), so I'll just talk about one of them.
The game tells of the X, an alien parasite inspired by The Thing. It's predator were the Metroids, an energy absorbing lifeform. Since the Metroids have all been killed however, the X are now running loose on their home planet until a research team led by Samus finds them. Samus's body is horribly disfigured and only saved from an injection made from the baby Metroid she saved in Metroid 2.
In this way Samus becomes the new predator to the X. Whenever an enemy is killed the parasite flees the body, fleeing from Samus before being absorbed for health. Again, just one way in which the story and the core gameplay fit hand in hand. Like all Metroid games you have to gain powers to progress. The military sends you these via data rooms. At first this seems just the game's equivalent of the chozo statues. But the X are fucking smart, being able to absorb and mimick human intelligence. They start destroying data rooms, and even stealing your powers before you can get them.
To get to undestroyed data rooms you have to disengage locks in the station, but this allows the X to cause more damage and enact more intelligent plans. But you gotta do this because you gotta get more of your powers back, because you are hunted as well. The SA-X is an X using your full power stolen from you during the first X run in. Now get this shit; You have become a Metroid which is the predator of the X. But the SA-X has become SAMUS ARAN, which was the predator of the Metroids. IT'S SO FUCKING GOOD. That was may more than one thing but it's so fucking good. If I were to compare gameplay alone, I'd say Metroid Prime is better. But again, a gesamkuntswerk is worth more than the sum of its parts, and that's exactly what Fusion is. It is the definitive science fiction game.
Resident Evil REmake
Resident Evil has always had intentionally stupid voice acting and B-movie cut scenes that betrayed what was actually a rich narrative in the form of documents left throughout the first three games. The remake of Resident Evil 1 is synonymous with the concept of a good video game remake down to the point where fans usually just call it REmake. The story takes itself more seriously and this actually turned out to be a good thing. Because now the fight for survival in a horror atmosphere actually feels more real. But more than that as a game itself there were great advances here. Earlier RE games had you managing health and ammo. I think REmake is a testament to great level design in how it forces you to manage pathways. You will have to go through certain locations many times and there are several different routes you can take to any, but whenever you get too comfortable with one it always throws a monkey wrench in the form of a broken door or a flood of zombies. Earlier RE games I love em but 2/3 of the way through the game you acquire way too much ammo. REmake keeps you on edge the whole time.
Skies of Arcadia
I don't know if anyone else voted yes, but I didn't nominate this game. Someone else beat me to it. This game is adventure. Not an adventure game, it is pure distilled adventure. If you took every significant exploration in our real world history and put them into one game where you are also sky pirates, this is exactly what it would feel like.
My personal philosophy throughout this contest has been to vote for the 1 or 2 most influential/"best" games in a series and say no to the rest. Following this logic, it would make sense to vote for Madden 2005 over other Madden games and either (or both) Call of Duty 2 and Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare over any other CoD games. I also would like to put my support behind World of Warcraft and League of Legends: though I have never played the former, both games are the pinnacle of their genre and have experienced massive popularity as a result. It's not like MOBAs and MMORPGs are niche genres: they are very popular with a wide variety of people. If we were talking about Simulation or Driving/Racing games, you could possibly make the argument that the market is so small that it does not matter if one game is better than all of the others in its genre. You can use the argument that sales do not mean a game is good, but when a game shows such a dominance over other games inside of its own genre, it clearly has some qualities that set it above the rest of the competition.
I can't believe I'm spending so much energy beating down games I play daily rofl
WoW and LoL are both popular games, but I don't think their gameplay is top 100 quality. Both have shitty communities but they're honestly rather easy to ignore: I'm approaching this from purely a gameplay point of view.
The entire point of WoW is to suck in as many play hours as possible (so people buy more playtime), be it long grinds or appealing to inherent addictive brain switches with loot tables that are akin to gambling. I'm an unemployed college student on summer break and even I haven't been able to do everything I want to do in that game, and for many aspects of the game I feel like I'm at a casino where the odds are in favor of the house. This is especially inherent in PvE, where you only have one shot at your desired gear or vanity item per week/day with a fairly low chance of dropping. I admit, I play WoW for the aforementioned reason: I'm an unemployed college student on summer break. Nothing else fills the hours better: I play because the game never truly ends, and you can easily do something else if what you tire of what you're currently doing. But I don't find the gameplay especially rewarding, sans perhaps the AH. Sure, you're competing against people with a lot more time than you, but participating in a tangible free market that allows you to take risks without foreclosing your house is a valuable experience in this day and age.
LoL is fun, but I don't think the gameplay is top 100 material. I really don't. I probably won't be looking back when I'm old and saying "this game changed my life" as Pokemon or Mario has.
WoW and LoL are both popular games, but I don't think their gameplay is top 100 quality. Both have shitty communities but they're honestly rather easy to ignore: I'm approaching this from purely a gameplay point of view.
The entire point of WoW is to suck in as many play hours as possible (so people buy more playtime), be it long grinds or appealing to inherent addictive brain switches with loot tables that are akin to gambling. I'm an unemployed college student on summer break and even I haven't been able to do everything I want to do in that game, and for many aspects of the game I feel like I'm at a casino where the odds are in favor of the house. This is especially inherent in PvE, where you only have one shot at your desired gear or vanity item per week/day with a fairly low chance of dropping. I admit, I play WoW for the aforementioned reason: I'm an unemployed college student on summer break. Nothing else fills the hours better: I play because the game never truly ends, and you can easily do something else if what you tire of what you're currently doing. But I don't find the gameplay especially rewarding, sans perhaps the AH. Sure, you're competing against people with a lot more time than you, but participating in a tangible free market that allows you to take risks without foreclosing your house is a valuable experience in this day and age.
LoL is fun, but I don't think the gameplay is top 100 material. I really don't. I probably won't be looking back when I'm old and saying "this game changed my life" as Pokemon or Mario has.
Ok so I probably don't have any right to complain about what was given the green light and what was given the boot because I didn't take part in any of the votes, but can someone explain to me why Mario Kart Wii got a no when Mario Kart Double Dash got a yes? I find the idea of Double Dash being a better game than MKW to be laughable. I mean I'm fine with Double Dash still being considered (it's still a Mario Kart game), but if Double Dash is still being considered for top 100 then the Wii version should be considered for top 100 too.
Hahahahahahahahahaahahahhahahahhahhhaha
I don't know if you've played Double Dash or not, but if you have, you're the only person i know who doesn't consider DD to be THE Mario Kart. It easily has the best gameplay with the amazing Partner mechanic (unless you're some sort of hermit, playing with a friend makes a game so much better), beautifully designed levels and environments (ok so Wii had lots of these too but it also had Wario's Gold Mine and DK Summit), and no moronic items like Bullet Bill or Blooper. Also let's not forget the single best video game music ever is found in Double Dash's Rainbow Road.
I have played MK:DD (I wouldn't have bought it up if I hadn't) and I'm not saying that it's bad. I know this is subjective, but I just had more fun playing Mario Kart Wii, and I can assure you that I'm not the only one who doesn't think that DD is THE Mario Kart, to use your words.
I would like to point out that Mario Kart Wii is the ONLY console version with online play. I would have thought that that would have been a considerable plus over the Gamecube version. The DS version did it first but it was restricted somewhat by not being able to race on every track, and the races tended to be very dull with just 4 players. The Wii version took it to a whole level and it gave it so much replay value, whereas the life time of MK:DD depended (for me) on how many friends you have that actually enjoy video games. Believe it or not, not everyone has easy access to willing players, so once you finish with DDs one player mode the game is done, doomed to be pulled out for a quick spin every few months. The online play in MKW was a hell of a lot of fun (it still is), it was fast, and it was usually lag free. The only issue was the unfair scoring system, especially in battles where you had to play in teams, but considering that the score didn't really unlock anything, who cares? Even without online, MKW was a bigger game due to having twice as many GPs and more things to unlock (from GP mode and time trials). It has a longer shelf life as a one player game.
I also prefer MKWs kart mechanics. DD is fun but it's basically just a boost spamfest. The karts handle like trolleys and the fact that the karts lose barely any speed when they hit a wall makes it seem like you're driving a bumper car. As I said, it was fun, but it didn't require as much skill. Mario Kart Wii was less about snaking for boosts down straights and more about actually sticking to a racing line and driving precisely. Snaking is still possible but it is less rewarding. The trick mechanic was fairly gimmicky but it actually added to the overall speed of the game.
You can say all you want against Wario's Gold Mine and DK Summit (I myself don't mind Wario's Gold Mine but DK Summit/Snowboard Cross is overrated so I agree with that), but don't pretend that MK:DD didn't have courses that were mediocre too (Baby Park is a fucking oval; how is that an example of "beautifully designed levels and environments"?). I found the special items to be just as "moronic" as the stuff you describe, not to mention unbalanced (Giant Bananas and Bowser Shells are much more useful than Mario's Fireballs). Oh, and the soundtrack in MKW is just as good as that in MKDD (although I understand that that is just my opinion).
Laugh all you want at my preferences. I don't care. I don't deny that MKW has issues (there is probably way too much emphasis on item management, and some of those bikes were broken). However, I still believe that it should be at least considered for a top 100 position, especially if the gamecube and DS versions are being considered. I'm honestly not expecting a redemption if it got kicked out so easily without anyone commenting on it at the time, but I thought I may as well try.
Well it's sure as hell better than DD.
WoW had a fairly good community before Blizzard went and killed it by adding server transfers and making all the good group finding tools they added cross realm instead of single realm.
Why no mention of MK7? It's personally one of my favorite Mario Karts (I'm part of the crowd that considers DD to be probably the pinnacle of the franchise). I think it controls the best of all the Mario Karts, and has one of the best item systems. It introduced some pretty good new tracks and brought back some of the best tracks from the earlier games (DINO DINO!) It also has the best online multiplayer of the franchise. Its only real flaw is the terrible selection of characters, which is somewhat remedied by the cool kart-creation system.