Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

It's way too early to discuss things like this. We don't know all the exact details surrounding the mechanic and we are yet to see it in practice in a competitive environment. Also, we would like to keep this forum spoiler-free, so please refrain from this subject in this forum for now. We might make a thread dedicated to competitive SV OU discussion closer to its release date, but no promises.
okay sorry,do you want me to delete my comment?
 
something irrelevant to my last post:

as about the terastal phenomenon in the upcoming gen:

I know that this is controversial among the competitive community due to not having much downsides,so I would like to request whoever is in charge of making the rules to consider nerfing it instead of banning it, since one of the criticisms is that it does not require an item; you can make some rule about that,like a rule that allows terastilization to only happen on pokemon with no held items either on pokemon holding useless items like potion or pokemon holding hindering items like power band.
By that logic, we should allow Mewtwo at only level 75, since then it wouldn't be overpowered
 
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Bug Buzz
- Psychic

Ive been doing great with this boy decently high on OLT ladder (low 1900s), and man this mon preys on current teams so hard. The banded ttars, the spdef chomps (esp if u pair this with fini), the balloon trans, everything gets absolutely fried. Lots of jetless pads shifus, and fire blast cooks chipped landos. It just seems like a lot of teams on the ladder right now aren't fully respecting Volcarona in the builder, and because of it this thing just dominates with extreme ease.

I really recommend trying some bulky offence/hyper offence builds with this mon. Especially paired with Lele for stronger psychics or Fini for easier setup vs defensive chomp. Also Volcarona can actually threaten to beat down blissey a bit if u have misty terrain up.
 
In order to get a complex ban to fly, it would have to be super clear that the reason why the thing is broken is because of that specific thing, and that specific thing only. It also has to be clear that the complex ban would fix all the issues with that mechanic

Keeping the discussion away from gen 9, during the Dynamax ban, there was a reasonable argument to be made that Dynamax wasn't broken if good Dynamax options like Gyrados or Hawlucha were prevented from doing so. But even if you did that, there's no guaruntee that something similar wouldn't just take its place. Plus, it wouldn't fix other fundamental issues with Dynamax, like the fact that it invalidates positioning and defensive counterplay in singles generally. Gen 5 OU just banned gems. They could have, if they wanted to, just banned the main abusers from using them, or banned the best gem types, or only allowed on gem per team, but it wouldn't address the low risk high reward nature of them, or that they limit, again, defensive counterplay.

Trying to fix Dynamax, for example, by disallowing pokemon the ability to Dynamax and hold items at the same time, would be tough to justify because any Pokemon can Dynamax, and half the strength of the mechanic is that you can Dynamax anything at any time, including weird picks, if it benefits you (this happens often in VGC). So you'd have a lot of teams running 1, maybe 2 items total just to exploit Dynamax. All that just to run the risk of not actually even fixing the core issue
 
Wanted to make another quick post about an OU fire type. Heatran has been seen a lot using balloon lately, tending to wall other heartens as a result. We also have seen a big uptake in band ttar, so I thought body press Heatran might be worth again.

Heatran @ Leftovers / Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire / Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 128 SpD / 128 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Body Press
- Taunt / Stealth Rock / Toxic

Keeping earth power because I dont want to be the goof Heatran walled by Victini. Point is, this mon could be nice on balance rn. Cannot say for certain as my testing has been slow (I dont know how to build balance).


Along with this I was wondering what peoples thoughts on defensive Landos are rn. Physdef obviously hurts to use as it gets obliterated by all the physical attackers of the tier, and while spdef does soft-sponge hits from the tiers special mons, I feel like the presence of balloon eruption tran has started making Lando feel easily abusable. Spdef Chomp has felt better in the roll of spdef ground, so maybe offensive sets could do Lando justice?
 
Wanted to make another quick post about an OU fire type. Heatran has been seen a lot using balloon lately, tending to wall other heartens as a result. We also have seen a big uptake in band ttar, so I thought body press Heatran might be worth again.

Heatran @ Leftovers / Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire / Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 128 SpD / 128 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Body Press
- Taunt / Stealth Rock / Toxic

Keeping earth power because I dont want to be the goof Heatran walled by Victini. Point is, this mon could be nice on balance rn. Cannot say for certain as my testing has been slow (I dont know how to build balance).


Along with this I was wondering what peoples thoughts on defensive Landos are rn. Physdef obviously hurts to use as it gets obliterated by all the physical attackers of the tier, and while spdef does soft-sponge hits from the tiers special mons, I feel like the presence of balloon eruption tran has started making Lando feel easily abusable. Spdef Chomp has felt better in the roll of spdef ground, so maybe offensive sets could do Lando justice?
As a specially defensive Ground-type, Landorus offers amazing role compression which can't be matched in the tier. Whether it or Garchomp better matches up to a specific variant of Heatran which isn't all that common won't invalidate that when it has so many other favorable qualities. It's not like either set isn't walled by Air Ballon Heatran anyways, where it can force progress on them due to a lack of reliable recovery, so I don't understand why this question is being posed.

Offensive Landorus are the second most popular and also the only other viable sets which are rather playstyle specific; those being Suicide Lead, SD, and Offensive Utility. I personally see these exclusively on Hyper Offense or Offense, but fast utility sets also make their way onto some balances as a way to better manage Heatran, Volcanion, and Nidoking. They've been experimented with heavily already, and certainly do not contend its specially defensive set in terms of viability.

Aside from that, Body Press Heatran is a fun set, although I recommend the spread to be physically defensive. I've used it a few times myself on teams where I needed a way to help manage Blissey, Tyranitar, Hydreigon, and opposing Heatran. It can be hard to fit in but it is rewarding at times.
 
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As a specially defensive Ground-type, Landorus offers amazing role compression which can't be matched in the tier. Whether it or Garchomp better matches up to a specific variant of Heatran which isn't all that common won't invalidate that when it has so many other favorable qualities. It's not like either set isn't walled by Air Ballon Heatran anyways, where it can force progress on them due to a lack of reliable recovery, so I don't understand why this question is being posed.

Offensive Landorus are the second most popular and also the only other viable sets which are rather playstyle specific; those being Suicide Lead, SD, and Offensive Utility. I personally see these exclusively on Hyper Offense or Offense, but fast utility sets also make their way onto some balances as a way to better manage Heatran, Volcanion, and Nidoking. They've been experimented with heavily already, and certainly do not contend its specially defensive set in terms of viability.

Aside from that, Body Press Heatran is a fun set, although I recommend the spread to be physically defensive. I've used it a few times myself on teams where I needed a way to help manage Blissey, Tyranitar, Hydreigon, and opposing Heatran. It can be hard to fit in but it is rewarding at times.
You make a fair point that garchomp has the same walled by balloon tran issue, but being able to resist fire was rly the main reason I was rooting for Chomp over Lando as a spdef ground. Blace Volc and Tran get more reliably checked long term, and its also better vs bullshit Zapdos and to an extent, rotom-wash.

I understand why defensive Landorus is used, I get the role compression is good but as of late both through my experience and watching OLT games its felt like Lando exists just to die right now and maybe defog. I did have a good time with offensive sets like smack down/gravity/scarf though.

Also yeah, physdef for press Tran is fine. Just depends on what ur checking with tran for your team. I just copy pasted it from a team where its my volc/lele answer.
 
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Bug Buzz
- Psychic

Ive been doing great with this boy decently high on OLT ladder (low 1900s), and man this mon preys on current teams so hard. The banded ttars, the spdef chomps (esp if u pair this with fini), the balloon trans, everything gets absolutely fried. Lots of jetless pads shifus, and fire blast cooks chipped landos. It just seems like a lot of teams on the ladder right now aren't fully respecting Volcarona in the builder, and because of it this thing just dominates with extreme ease.

I really recommend trying some bulky offence/hyper offence builds with this mon. Especially paired with Lele for stronger psychics or Fini for easier setup vs defensive chomp. Also Volcarona can actually threaten to beat down blissey a bit if u have misty terrain up.
What set do you mainly run on Fini?
 
I believe that a somewhat underrated pokemon in OU is scyther.

the set that this pokemon should be using is this:

EVs:
252-atk
252-speed
4-def.

moveset:
u-turn
dual-wingbeat
defog
brick break

item:
heavy dutty boots (alternative items are the choice band and the scope lens but I don't reccomend them).

ability:
technician.

I don't think that this pokemon is great, but it is somewhat underrated.
as about why I think that this pokemon deserves some love here is why:

for starters scyther has the single most powerful dual wingbeat in the game since it gets both a boost from technician AND a stab.
there are fighting types that scyzor would struggle to beat without an item that boosts its move's power.
the dual wingbeat is a guaranteed OHKO on both bu

as a pivot it does not have a reason to worry about landorus(one of the most common leads).

the brick break attack is more meant for the utility purpose of removing your opponents shields instead of waiting for them to leave(most pokemon that can run brick break chose also run other stronger fighting type moves so they don't pick it due to opportunity cost).
if you want,you can run choice band,with that way you can OHKO tyranitar.

its speed gives it a niche over its evolved form.
thanks to its impressive 105 speed,it can outrun the majority of grass bug and fighting types.the speed also makes it one of the fastest pivots in the game and also one of the fastest defogers(most pokemon faster than it either don't run defog or don't boost their speed much.)
 
I believe that a somewhat underrated pokemon in OU is scyther.

the set that this pokemon should be using is this:

EVs:
252-atk
252-speed
4-def.

moveset:
u-turn
dual-wingbeat
defog
brick break

item:
heavy dutty boots (alternative items are the choice band and the scope lens but I don't reccomend them).

ability:
technician.

I don't think that this pokemon is great, but it is somewhat underrated.
as about why I think that this pokemon deserves some love here is why:

for starters scyther has the single most powerful dual wingbeat in the game since it gets both a boost from technician AND a stab.
there are fighting types that scyzor would struggle to beat without an item that boosts its move's power.
the dual wingbeat is a guaranteed OHKO on both

as a pivot it does not have a reason to worry about landorus(one of the most common leads).

the brick break attack is more meant for the utility purpose of removing your opponents shields instead of waiting for them to leave(most pokemon that can run brick break chose also run other stronger fighting type moves so they don't pick it due to opportunity cost).
if you want,you can run choice band,with that way you can OHKO tyranitar.

its speed gives it a niche over its evolved form.
thanks to its impressive 105 speed,it can outrun the majority of grass bug and fighting types.the speed also makes it one of the fastest pivots in the game and also one of the fastest defogers(most pokemon faster than it either don't run defog or don't boost their speed much.)
If you wanted a fast, offensive pivot with Defog and physical flying STAB, would Crobat not be better? I guess then a fast, offensive pivot with Defog, phsyical flying STAB, and fighting coverage would be the thing Scyther does better than other options.

-1 252 Atk Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 98-116 (25.6 - 30.3%) -- approx. 0.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Scyther Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 140-166 (36.2 - 43%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Scyther Brick Break vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 108-128 (25.7 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 186-218 (52.1 - 61%) -- approx. 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 222-264 (79 - 93.9%) -- approx. 2HKO

252 Atk Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 318-374 (44.5 - 52.3%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to 2HKO


I guess my main problem with it is that it doesn't threaten much outside of frail pokemon like Weavile (who outspeed and kill it anyway). When I think about an effective offensive pivot, I think, like Barraskewda or Dragapult. They come in, threaten to 1 or 2HKO your whole team, and use U-turn/Flip Turn on the switch. Scyther comes in and gets walled by most things. By Melmetal, Zapdos, Tornadus, Rotom, Toxapex, Defensive Heatran, Landorus-T. It's a physical attacker that struggles to 2HKO Blissey. And where it doesn't get walled, it doesn't do enough damage to pick up KOs on big threats and gets forced out by its poor typing. Scyther comes in as a pivot to win you momentum but will lose momentum 80% of the time.

That's not to say I don't think you can win games with it. Some of the neutral dual wingbeat damage calcs were kind of interesting. But I think for niche Pokemon like Sychter you really have to find a situation where it works better than anything else, and we have better offensive pivots in the tier.

I was thinking maybe a Bulky Swords Dance set like this?

Code:
Scyther @ Eviolite 
Ability: Technician 
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 48 Def / 176 Spe 
Adamant Nature 
- Dual Wingbeat 
- Roost / Brick Break / Quick Attack
- U-turn 
- Swords Dance
Basically, enough speed to outspeed Modest specs Tapu Lele, enough attack to OHKO offensive Rillaboom unboosted, and the rest into HP and defense. It's a worse Weavile to be clear, that's far more annoyed by rocks. But unlike Weavile, you don't have to sack something to check Rillaboom if rocks aren't up, and you're not walled by Buzzwole. I'm not entirely convinced, but it is something.

Probably best used on a team that struggles with the above Pokemon and has plenty of hazards support. I'm talking, like, defog/rapid spin and magic bounce on one team. You could also swap the Eviolite for Heavy-Duty Boots, but then it loses its ability to come in on things. For example, Eviolite lets Scyther take any attack from specs Lele from full.

There's also this Scyther here doing his best Tornadus-T impression:

Code:
Scyther @ Heavy-Duty Boots  
Ability: Technician  
EVs: 116 HP / 4 Atk / 136 Def / 252 Spe  
Jolly Nature  
- Dual Wingbeat  
- U-turn  
- Defog  
- Knock Off
for when you hate missing Hurricane. The EVs mean you take physical attacks about as well as Torn-T does.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 116 HP / 136 Def Scyther on a critical hit: 288-342 (92.9 - 110.3%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian on a critical hit: 333-396 (91.9 - 109.3%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 116 HP / 136 Def Scyther: 151-178 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 177-208 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

Plus you take Close Combat from CB water Urshifu and Buzzwole way better due to your typing. Neat
 
Haven't tried Scyther in OU, but if I did, I would never use Boots one and would run either Band or SD + Eviolite.

Without Eviolite, Scyther offers almost nothing defensively (checking Rillaboom and Buzzwole I guess), so if you use a Mon like this, you already have to go out of your way when building a team with it, so multiple Hazard removers (Lando-T, Corvi, Torn, Drill, even Scizor) look like a way better idea in order to support a supposedly big offensive threat than trying to do too many things with a low defensive profile and failing at all of them.

So, to sum up:
Boots Scyther bad, does 0 offensively, does 0 defensively.

Band Scyther breaks holes with Stabs, runs away from the counters with U-Turn. Main perks over similar Band Mons (Watershifu, Buzzwole, Rillaboom, Kartana, Weavile...) include being faster than some of them and having Stab U-Turn + Technician Dual Wing Beat, no other Mon has this combination. Needs big support, probably Double Defog and Zone (similar to Band Weavile in this regard, though Weavile is a much better Mon and can get away without Zone).

SD + Eviolite should work as an unorthodox win condition that wears down the counters with U-Turn and sweeps in late game, especially vs bulky teams that have their Steels removed (probably by Magnezone). Just like Band, needs huge support.

This is all theorymoning of course, I haven't actually used Scyther. But just like I already said, Band and SD+Eviolite look to have way more of a niche in OU than Boots.
 
If you wanted a fast, offensive pivot with Defog and physical flying STAB, would Crobat not be better? I guess then a fast, offensive pivot with Defog, phsyical flying STAB, and fighting coverage would be the thing Scyther does better than other options.

-1 252 Atk Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 98-116 (25.6 - 30.3%) -- approx. 0.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Scyther Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 140-166 (36.2 - 43%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Scyther Brick Break vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 108-128 (25.7 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 186-218 (52.1 - 61%) -- approx. 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 222-264 (79 - 93.9%) -- approx. 2HKO

252 Atk Technician Scyther Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 318-374 (44.5 - 52.3%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to 2HKO


I guess my main problem with it is that it doesn't threaten much outside of frail pokemon like Weavile (who outspeed and kill it anyway). When I think about an effective offensive pivot, I think, like Barraskewda or Dragapult. They come in, threaten to 1 or 2HKO your whole team, and use U-turn/Flip Turn on the switch. Scyther comes in and gets walled by most things. By Melmetal, Zapdos, Tornadus, Rotom, Toxapex, Defensive Heatran, Landorus-T. It's a physical attacker that struggles to 2HKO Blissey. And where it doesn't get walled, it doesn't do enough damage to pick up KOs on big threats and gets forced out by its poor typing. Scyther comes in as a pivot to win you momentum but will lose momentum 80% of the time.

That's not to say I don't think you can win games with it. Some of the neutral dual wingbeat damage calcs were kind of interesting. But I think for niche Pokemon like Sychter you really have to find a situation where it works better than anything else, and we have better offensive pivots in the tier.

I was thinking maybe a Bulky Swords Dance set like this?

Code:
Scyther @ Eviolite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 48 Def / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Roost / Brick Break / Quick Attack
- U-turn
- Swords Dance
Basically, enough speed to outspeed Modest specs Tapu Lele, enough attack to OHKO offensive Rillaboom unboosted, and the rest into HP and defense. It's a worse Weavile to be clear, that's far more annoyed by rocks. But unlike Weavile, you don't have to sack something to check Rillaboom if rocks aren't up, and you're not walled by Buzzwole. I'm not entirely convinced, but it is something.

Probably best used on a team that struggles with the above Pokemon and has plenty of hazards support. I'm talking, like, defog/rapid spin and magic bounce on one team. You could also swap the Eviolite for Heavy-Duty Boots, but then it loses its ability to come in on things. For example, Eviolite lets Scyther take any attack from specs Lele from full.

There's also this Scyther here doing his best Tornadus-T impression:

Code:
Scyther @ Heavy-Duty Boots 
Ability: Technician 
EVs: 116 HP / 4 Atk / 136 Def / 252 Spe 
Jolly Nature 
- Dual Wingbeat 
- U-turn 
- Defog 
- Knock Off
for when you hate missing Hurricane. The EVs mean you take physical attacks about as well as Torn-T does.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 116 HP / 136 Def Scyther on a critical hit: 288-342 (92.9 - 110.3%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian on a critical hit: 333-396 (91.9 - 109.3%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 116 HP / 136 Def Scyther: 151-178 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 177-208 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

Plus you take Close Combat from CB water Urshifu and Buzzwole way better due to your typing. Neat
I guess you make a nice point about crobat,but I am not completely sure if it would work as an alternative because its flying stab is weaker,it injures the user and would have to run adamant in order to come close to doing as much damage as scyther's dual wingbeat.
Thanks to technician, the base power of dual wingbeat becomes 60 per strike,and this move strikes twice meaning that it esentially has base power of 120.
crobat's only flying type moves with 120 or more base power are brave bird (which has 120 power + recoil) and sky attack (which has 140 power + a turn to charge first).
and unfortunately crobat's base attack is 90 while scyther's attack is 110 (an adamant crobat with 252 atk EVs has 306 attack while a 252 atk scyther with jolly has 319).

also the move brick break was only meant for the utility purpose of geting rid of the opponent's reflect and light screen,it was never meant to kill anything with it.(you can kill tyranitar with it but you will need a choice band in order to guarantee an OHKO).

as about crobat....I guess tailwind could go to the fourth slot?
 
Defog gets rid of screens anyway so running brick break on a mon just to temove screens while it also has defog is a bit redundant (unless you're really scared of taunt I guess).

I agree with the points made above, scyther seems to weak, both offensively and defensively, when you tack on HDB. I haven't used it but I've faced it a fair few times and the only set that really ever threatened me was Band. Eviolite SD is a cool midgame pivot but ultimately handicapped by its rocks weakness. Band actually hurts quite a bit, especially if you're not expecting it or your main physical wall is Buzz.

Also regarding crobat, I believe in UU and RU it commonly runs BraveBird / Defog / Roost / Taunt so something like that would probably be ok in OU for pivot purposes but really if you want a fast defog pivot just run Torn-T as it can do almost the same thing as this crobat/scyther set (the main difference being that it always misses hurricane when it matters)
 
I guess the conversation boils down to if you have to do all that to create positive circumstances for Scyther, and it still gets out performed by virtually everything else in that role, really only offering two borderline useful qualities in it's STABs, then is it really going to be worth the slot? My guess is shaping your team structure around a weak pivot won't lead to the most consistent outcomes. Scizor runs into similar issues in OU, and I've tried a few times to make that Mon work, but it doesn't threaten enough while being bulky enough, and gets outperformed by so many other band/SD mons.
 
Just waiting until the mods blacklist Scyther, don't mind me! All jokes aside though, I suppose Scyther is somewhat usable but also extremely conditional and support reliant. It's not the type of mon you use because you need it on your team, it's the type of mon you try to center other mons around in an attempt to get it to work.

On another note, how does everyone feel about 3A shardless Weavile?

:ss/weavile:
Weavile @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off
- Low Kick / Taunt / Aerial Ace / Psycho Cut / Poison Jab / (Whirlpool)?

During OLT I observed that a in lot of games fat teams and offenses were easily exploited by this kind of set due to how over reliant they were on cores which were exposed by uncommon coverage options. Of course it needs to be paired with teammates that can make up for the lack of priority that lets it check threats like DDnite, Dragapult, SD Scale Shot Garchomp, and Rillaboom.

The point of this set is to take advantage of its checks by leveraging the lack of priority for extended coverage that lets it more easily overwhelm teams. Low Kick punishes mispredicts into Steel-types like Heatran, Ferrothorn, or Melmetal, in addition to other Fighting-type weak checks. Taunt is mainly to overwhelm Toxapex, but can also be used to prevent Rotom-W from spamming Will-O-Wisp on teams that can't manage it well. Aerial Ace is reserved specifically to punish Buzzwole, Urshifu, and Blaziken who would otherwise not expect the move from a set that isn't choice-locked, clearing the way for partners who share those checks. Psycho Cut is a coverage option to hit a lot of the same targets as Aerial Ace, but less reliably removing Buzzwole. Lastly, Poison Jab serves the niche purpose of getting by Tapu Fini and Alolan Nintales. I still have my doubts about Whirlpool-- it is very specific, intended to punish mispredicted switches during sequnces with Future Sight so that the opposing mon can be picked off by Weavile.
 
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Just waiting until the mods blacklist Scyther, don't mind me! All jokes aside though, I suppose Scyther is somewhat usable but also extremely conditional and support reliant. It's not the type of mon you use because you need it on your team, it's the type of mon you try to center other mons around in an attempt to get it to work.

On another note, how does everyone feel about 3A shardless Weavile?

:ss/weavile:
Weavile @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off
- Low Kick / Taunt / Aerial Ace / Psycho Cut / Poison Jab / (Whirlpool)?

During OLT I observed that a in lot of games fat teams and offenses were easily exploited by this kind of set due to how over reliant they were on cores which were exposed by uncommon coverage options. Of course it needs to be paired with teammates that can make up for the lack of priority that lets it check threats like DDnite, Dragapult, SD Scale Shot Garchomp, and Rillaboom.

The point of this set is to take advantage of its checks by leveraging the lack of priority for extended coverage that lets it more easily overwhelm teams. Low Kick punishes mispredicts into Steel-types like Heatran, Ferrothorn, or Melmetal, in addition to other Fighting-type weak checks. Taunt is mainly to overwhelm Toxapex, but can also be used to prevent Rotom-W from spamming Will-O-Wisp on teams that can't manage it well. Aerial Ace is reserved specifically to punish Buzzwole, Urshifu, and Blaziken who would otherwise not expect the move from a set that isn't choice-locked, clearing the way for partners who share those checks. Psycho Cut is a coverage option to hit a lot of the same targets as Aerial Ace, but less reliably removing Buzzwole. Lastly, Poison Jab serves the niche purpose of getting by Tapu Fini and Alolan Nintales. I still have my doubts about Whirlpool-- it is very specific, intended to punish mispredicted switches during sequnces with Future Sight so that the opposing mon can be picked off by Weavile.
Scarf Lele has paired well with Shardless Weavile in the past for me. It can deal with a lot of the priority threats you listed.
 
something completely unrelated to my past posts:

there are times where I use golurk in OU because it is regieleki's worst nightmare(the typing alone makes it immune to almost every move in regieleki's movepool except from assurance acrobatics bounce and ancient power).

the set I am using is this:
EV's:
252 atk
252 def
4 sp def

nature:adamant/brave

item:assault vest.

ability: iron fist

moves:
-earthquake
-poltergeist
-heavy slam
-hammer arm/

this pokemon is NOT great,but it does have some good niche.
I boosted its defences because it is too slow to outrun most pokemon.

the iron fist ability boosts the hammer arm to 120 power meaning that it has the same power as close combat,but it loses speed instead of defences.

also if it is at full health it can survive a shadow ball from dragapult and get an OHKO with poltergeist.
its heavy slam can also either kill or severely injure the fairy types since it outweighs them all.

the brave nature can help it with trick room especially when combined with hammer arm.

alternative to this set can be the no guard ability and close combat instead of hammer arm.
while the accuracy is great I am afraid that it is too risky to reduce the defences on a slow pokemon whose defences are okay but not great.
 

Slowbro @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Future Sight
- Ice Beam / Focus Blast

Rather than being an wall, it just can run specs to go all-out and OHKO Toxapex and Landorus-Therian with Psychic and Scald respectively, Flamethrower and Fire Blast OHKOes Ferrothorn and Kartana, however it needs Trick Room support to OHKO Kartana before it does it so to Slowbro with Leaf Blade. Ice Beam hits Dragon types such as Dragapult, Latios and Kommo-o.

Focus Blast Hits Tyranitar harder and it can OHKO it.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Slowbro Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 344-408 (85.1 - 100.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Slowbro Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 476-564 (139.5 - 165.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
something completely unrelated to my past posts:

there are times where I use golurk in OU because it is regieleki's worst nightmare(the typing alone makes it immune to almost every move in regieleki's movepool except from assurance acrobatics bounce and ancient power).

the set I am using is this:
EV's:
252 atk
252 def
4 sp def

nature:adamant/brave

item:assault vest.

ability: iron fist

moves:
-earthquake
-poltergeist
-heavy slam
-hammer arm/

this pokemon is NOT great,but it does have some good niche.
I boosted its defences because it is too slow to outrun most pokemon.

the iron fist ability boosts the hammer arm to 120 power meaning that it has the same power as close combat,but it loses speed instead of defences.

also if it is at full health it can survive a shadow ball from dragapult and get an OHKO with poltergeist.
its heavy slam can also either kill or severely injure the fairy types since it outweighs them all.

the brave nature can help it with trick room especially when combined with hammer arm.

alternative to this set can be the no guard ability and close combat instead of hammer arm.
while the accuracy is great I am afraid that it is too risky to reduce the defences on a slow pokemon whose defences are okay but not great.
First of all, I think if you're gonna use meme mons golurk is probably among the best. That said, I don't think this is how you should use it at all. With that attack stat, and a 110 power, incredibly spammable stab poltergeist you shouldn't be wasting time with AV. Ghost types are the ultimate skilless button clickers this gen and you should lean into that for golurk. I only run choice band. It 2 hit KOs almost everything in the tier, and can trick to cripple a wall on the occasion you can't break through. While he is usually just a budget crawdaunt lacking strong priority (gamefreak needs to give it sneak), I think trick + an even more spammable stab than knock off + very nice immunities, and moves that ignore contact punishment, it can be fun to use.

Also, even though 55 speed means you're not outrunning any offensive mons if you choose to use golurk you should always invest in speed. It lets you take advantage of a lot of walls that would otherwise take advantage of you. For example, corv can switch in and pp stall you with roost if you don't have the speed to outrun him. Many other walls, like clef, fat buzzwole, skarm, fini and the rare mandibuzz will be able to either stall you easier or threaten you if you aren't outspeeding. Going before their recovery or attacks enables you to effectively put them in kill threshold much earlier because you hit twice instead of once before they can respond. If you go even faster and go jolly, you lose a noticable amount of power but you catch Lando T which can be really nice for certain teams.

Here are some spreads:

12 HP, 252+ ATK, 244 SPD: gives you enough speed for no speed finis, you can just go all the way for 252 if you are scared of them putting in 4 evs to speed creep other fat finis.

4 HP, 252 ATK, 252+ SPD: catches Lando-T

156 HP, 252+ ATK, 100 SPD: catches corv but nothing faster. I'm sure you could optimize the bulk a little better but honestly not a fan of this little speed.

For ability, I personally always use no guard, as iron fist isn't super useful and the ability to not miss your poltergeists and stone edges is very nice.

For moves, you don't need much because of how spammable ghost stab is. I use poltergeist/earthquake/stone edge/trick. Edge is the most expendable, maybe you can switch for stealth rocks, but I like edge for the mandibuzz just in case. Rocks are nice but golurk's minimal bulk necessitates a second ground so I usually just put rocks on that.

Weavile is a perfect partner with the 244 speed variant because you weaken a lot of its checks and many people are not expecting nearly max speed which enables you to get big damage and have weavile clean up. Pivots are of course great, because despite its nice immunities, it can have trouble hitting the field, especially because it's allergic to knock off.

Golurk is obviously very flawed, it is utterly terrified of knock off in multiple ways, it hates switching in on it, and hates it on its own team. That sucks when knock off is such a good way to make progress. Its speed is just slow enough that it has to choose between losing a lot of power or outspeeding Lando, and other breakers don't need to make that sacrifice. Its defenses, especially without investment, are quite mediocre and so you'll have to have another ground which can sometimes be limiting in the builder. Still a meme mon but def good enough for even mid ladder I find myself in (1600-1700).
 
Just waiting until the mods blacklist Scyther, don't mind me! All jokes aside though, I suppose Scyther is somewhat usable but also extremely conditional and support reliant. It's not the type of mon you use because you need it on your team, it's the type of mon you try to center other mons around in an attempt to get it to work.
I guess the conversation boils down to if you have to do all that to create positive circumstances for Scyther, and it still gets out performed by virtually everything else in that role, really only offering two borderline useful qualities in it's STABs, then is it really going to be worth the slot? My guess is shaping your team structure around a weak pivot won't lead to the most consistent outcomes. Scizor runs into similar issues in OU, and I've tried a few times to make that Mon work, but it doesn't threaten enough while being bulky enough, and gets outperformed by so many other band/SD mons.
So after seeing talks about Scyther in OU, I decided to tool around with it and see how it played out in my endless quest to use lower-tier Pokemon in OU; what sets worked, which ones didn't, such and such. One of the main posts in the thread was absolutely correct that using Heavy-Duty Boots really meant it couldn't do much on either the Offensive or Defensive spectrum.

Band was nice, but whenever it would get Knocked Off, it would lose a huge chunk of utility and power and would have a hard time doing much beyond that initial burst. I kept struggling with what item to pick until I realized... there's no need to have one with one specific set that actually worked wonders for what I needed it to do in the tier. Itemless Scyther actually helped to cripple opposing team cores thanks to a unique group of benefits that other Pokemon simply did not have.


Scyther
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Thief
- U-turn
- Roost / Bug Bite​

Scyther works as a wonderful "hit and run" mon of sorts. Technician-boosted STAB Dual Wingbeat will be your go-to move most of the time. Beyond that is where the set truly starts to take shape. Technician-boosted Thief allows you to tear an opposing Pokemon's item away, acting as an even more potent Knock Off while giving yourself the benefit of a new item. STAB U-Turn is, as always, fantastic for pivots. The last slot depends on your preference. If you'd like Scyther to have additional longevity, run Roost; if you'd like an additional non-pivot STAB move, run Bug Bite. Finally, Scyther requires significant hazard removal support if you're not running Heavy-Duty Boots (which I would not recommend doing) and definitely has flaws. However, with its great traits, high attack and speed, and great Technician boosted STAB move and tech options, I've found that Scyther has a pretty interesting niche in OU.

As mentioned, Scyther is VERY conditional but can loop circles around your opponent if you predict correctly.
 

Heatran @ Assault Vest
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Magma Storm
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Burning Jealousy

An Assault Vest Heatran can take special attacks easier from special attackers such as Zapdos and much more. Burning Jealousy is prefered for burning foes such as Hawlucha when it tries to set up with Swords Dance or even when it switches in too. Fire Blast has more power and accuracy than Magma Storm but it lacks trapping opponents

With this set, Heatran is 2HKOed by the opposing Heatran's Earth Power.

0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 204-244 (52.8 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 248-296 (64.2 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Heatran @ Assault Vest
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Magma Storm
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Burning Jealousy

An Assault Vest Heatran can take special attacks easier from special attackers such as Zapdos and much more. Burning Jealousy is prefered for burning foes such as Hawlucha when it tries to set up with Swords Dance or even when it switches in too. Fire Blast has more power and accuracy than Magma Storm but it lacks trapping opponents

With this set, Heatran is 2HKOed by the opposing Heatran's Earth Power.

0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 204-244 (52.8 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 248-296 (64.2 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Honestly to me feels a bit pointless as a set, spdef Tran would do almost the same job with lefties without losing on longevity, especially if rocks are involved. In addition I feel offensive Tran becomes much more wallable when lacking Taunt or Toxic so if going in that direction and don't want to use lefties you could go for Air Balloon or even Power Herb Solar Beam if you feel like it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 103-123 (26.6 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Heatran: 115-136 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

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