Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Defog gets rid of screens anyway so running brick break on a mon just to temove screens while it also has defog is a bit redundant (unless you're really scared of taunt I guess).

I agree with the points made above, scyther seems to weak, both offensively and defensively, when you tack on HDB. I haven't used it but I've faced it a fair few times and the only set that really ever threatened me was Band. Eviolite SD is a cool midgame pivot but ultimately handicapped by its rocks weakness. Band actually hurts quite a bit, especially if you're not expecting it or your main physical wall is Buzz.

Also regarding crobat, I believe in UU and RU it commonly runs BraveBird / Defog / Roost / Taunt so something like that would probably be ok in OU for pivot purposes but really if you want a fast defog pivot just run Torn-T as it can do almost the same thing as this crobat/scyther set (the main difference being that it always misses hurricane when it matters)
 
I guess the conversation boils down to if you have to do all that to create positive circumstances for Scyther, and it still gets out performed by virtually everything else in that role, really only offering two borderline useful qualities in it's STABs, then is it really going to be worth the slot? My guess is shaping your team structure around a weak pivot won't lead to the most consistent outcomes. Scizor runs into similar issues in OU, and I've tried a few times to make that Mon work, but it doesn't threaten enough while being bulky enough, and gets outperformed by so many other band/SD mons.
 
Just waiting until the mods blacklist Scyther, don't mind me! All jokes aside though, I suppose Scyther is somewhat usable but also extremely conditional and support reliant. It's not the type of mon you use because you need it on your team, it's the type of mon you try to center other mons around in an attempt to get it to work.

On another note, how does everyone feel about 3A shardless Weavile?

:ss/weavile:
Weavile @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off
- Low Kick / Taunt / Aerial Ace / Psycho Cut / Poison Jab / (Whirlpool)?

During OLT I observed that a in lot of games fat teams and offenses were easily exploited by this kind of set due to how over reliant they were on cores which were exposed by uncommon coverage options. Of course it needs to be paired with teammates that can make up for the lack of priority that lets it check threats like DDnite, Dragapult, SD Scale Shot Garchomp, and Rillaboom.

The point of this set is to take advantage of its checks by leveraging the lack of priority for extended coverage that lets it more easily overwhelm teams. Low Kick punishes mispredicts into Steel-types like Heatran, Ferrothorn, or Melmetal, in addition to other Fighting-type weak checks. Taunt is mainly to overwhelm Toxapex, but can also be used to prevent Rotom-W from spamming Will-O-Wisp on teams that can't manage it well. Aerial Ace is reserved specifically to punish Buzzwole, Urshifu, and Blaziken who would otherwise not expect the move from a set that isn't choice-locked, clearing the way for partners who share those checks. Psycho Cut is a coverage option to hit a lot of the same targets as Aerial Ace, but less reliably removing Buzzwole. Lastly, Poison Jab serves the niche purpose of getting by Tapu Fini and Alolan Nintales. I still have my doubts about Whirlpool-- it is very specific, intended to punish mispredicted switches during sequnces with Future Sight so that the opposing mon can be picked off by Weavile.
 
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Just waiting until the mods blacklist Scyther, don't mind me! All jokes aside though, I suppose Scyther is somewhat usable but also extremely conditional and support reliant. It's not the type of mon you use because you need it on your team, it's the type of mon you try to center other mons around in an attempt to get it to work.

On another note, how does everyone feel about 3A shardless Weavile?

:ss/weavile:
Weavile @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off
- Low Kick / Taunt / Aerial Ace / Psycho Cut / Poison Jab / (Whirlpool)?

During OLT I observed that a in lot of games fat teams and offenses were easily exploited by this kind of set due to how over reliant they were on cores which were exposed by uncommon coverage options. Of course it needs to be paired with teammates that can make up for the lack of priority that lets it check threats like DDnite, Dragapult, SD Scale Shot Garchomp, and Rillaboom.

The point of this set is to take advantage of its checks by leveraging the lack of priority for extended coverage that lets it more easily overwhelm teams. Low Kick punishes mispredicts into Steel-types like Heatran, Ferrothorn, or Melmetal, in addition to other Fighting-type weak checks. Taunt is mainly to overwhelm Toxapex, but can also be used to prevent Rotom-W from spamming Will-O-Wisp on teams that can't manage it well. Aerial Ace is reserved specifically to punish Buzzwole, Urshifu, and Blaziken who would otherwise not expect the move from a set that isn't choice-locked, clearing the way for partners who share those checks. Psycho Cut is a coverage option to hit a lot of the same targets as Aerial Ace, but less reliably removing Buzzwole. Lastly, Poison Jab serves the niche purpose of getting by Tapu Fini and Alolan Nintales. I still have my doubts about Whirlpool-- it is very specific, intended to punish mispredicted switches during sequnces with Future Sight so that the opposing mon can be picked off by Weavile.
Scarf Lele has paired well with Shardless Weavile in the past for me. It can deal with a lot of the priority threats you listed.
 
something completely unrelated to my past posts:

there are times where I use golurk in OU because it is regieleki's worst nightmare(the typing alone makes it immune to almost every move in regieleki's movepool except from assurance acrobatics bounce and ancient power).

the set I am using is this:
EV's:
252 atk
252 def
4 sp def

nature:adamant/brave

item:assault vest.

ability: iron fist

moves:
-earthquake
-poltergeist
-heavy slam
-hammer arm/

this pokemon is NOT great,but it does have some good niche.
I boosted its defences because it is too slow to outrun most pokemon.

the iron fist ability boosts the hammer arm to 120 power meaning that it has the same power as close combat,but it loses speed instead of defences.

also if it is at full health it can survive a shadow ball from dragapult and get an OHKO with poltergeist.
its heavy slam can also either kill or severely injure the fairy types since it outweighs them all.

the brave nature can help it with trick room especially when combined with hammer arm.

alternative to this set can be the no guard ability and close combat instead of hammer arm.
while the accuracy is great I am afraid that it is too risky to reduce the defences on a slow pokemon whose defences are okay but not great.
 

Slowbro @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Future Sight
- Ice Beam / Focus Blast

Rather than being an wall, it just can run specs to go all-out and OHKO Toxapex and Landorus-Therian with Psychic and Scald respectively, Flamethrower and Fire Blast OHKOes Ferrothorn and Kartana, however it needs Trick Room support to OHKO Kartana before it does it so to Slowbro with Leaf Blade. Ice Beam hits Dragon types such as Dragapult, Latios and Kommo-o.

Focus Blast Hits Tyranitar harder and it can OHKO it.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Slowbro Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 344-408 (85.1 - 100.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Slowbro Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 476-564 (139.5 - 165.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
something completely unrelated to my past posts:

there are times where I use golurk in OU because it is regieleki's worst nightmare(the typing alone makes it immune to almost every move in regieleki's movepool except from assurance acrobatics bounce and ancient power).

the set I am using is this:
EV's:
252 atk
252 def
4 sp def

nature:adamant/brave

item:assault vest.

ability: iron fist

moves:
-earthquake
-poltergeist
-heavy slam
-hammer arm/

this pokemon is NOT great,but it does have some good niche.
I boosted its defences because it is too slow to outrun most pokemon.

the iron fist ability boosts the hammer arm to 120 power meaning that it has the same power as close combat,but it loses speed instead of defences.

also if it is at full health it can survive a shadow ball from dragapult and get an OHKO with poltergeist.
its heavy slam can also either kill or severely injure the fairy types since it outweighs them all.

the brave nature can help it with trick room especially when combined with hammer arm.

alternative to this set can be the no guard ability and close combat instead of hammer arm.
while the accuracy is great I am afraid that it is too risky to reduce the defences on a slow pokemon whose defences are okay but not great.
First of all, I think if you're gonna use meme mons golurk is probably among the best. That said, I don't think this is how you should use it at all. With that attack stat, and a 110 power, incredibly spammable stab poltergeist you shouldn't be wasting time with AV. Ghost types are the ultimate skilless button clickers this gen and you should lean into that for golurk. I only run choice band. It 2 hit KOs almost everything in the tier, and can trick to cripple a wall on the occasion you can't break through. While he is usually just a budget crawdaunt lacking strong priority (gamefreak needs to give it sneak), I think trick + an even more spammable stab than knock off + very nice immunities, and moves that ignore contact punishment, it can be fun to use.

Also, even though 55 speed means you're not outrunning any offensive mons if you choose to use golurk you should always invest in speed. It lets you take advantage of a lot of walls that would otherwise take advantage of you. For example, corv can switch in and pp stall you with roost if you don't have the speed to outrun him. Many other walls, like clef, fat buzzwole, skarm, fini and the rare mandibuzz will be able to either stall you easier or threaten you if you aren't outspeeding. Going before their recovery or attacks enables you to effectively put them in kill threshold much earlier because you hit twice instead of once before they can respond. If you go even faster and go jolly, you lose a noticable amount of power but you catch Lando T which can be really nice for certain teams.

Here are some spreads:

12 HP, 252+ ATK, 244 SPD: gives you enough speed for no speed finis, you can just go all the way for 252 if you are scared of them putting in 4 evs to speed creep other fat finis.

4 HP, 252 ATK, 252+ SPD: catches Lando-T

156 HP, 252+ ATK, 100 SPD: catches corv but nothing faster. I'm sure you could optimize the bulk a little better but honestly not a fan of this little speed.

For ability, I personally always use no guard, as iron fist isn't super useful and the ability to not miss your poltergeists and stone edges is very nice.

For moves, you don't need much because of how spammable ghost stab is. I use poltergeist/earthquake/stone edge/trick. Edge is the most expendable, maybe you can switch for stealth rocks, but I like edge for the mandibuzz just in case. Rocks are nice but golurk's minimal bulk necessitates a second ground so I usually just put rocks on that.

Weavile is a perfect partner with the 244 speed variant because you weaken a lot of its checks and many people are not expecting nearly max speed which enables you to get big damage and have weavile clean up. Pivots are of course great, because despite its nice immunities, it can have trouble hitting the field, especially because it's allergic to knock off.

Golurk is obviously very flawed, it is utterly terrified of knock off in multiple ways, it hates switching in on it, and hates it on its own team. That sucks when knock off is such a good way to make progress. Its speed is just slow enough that it has to choose between losing a lot of power or outspeeding Lando, and other breakers don't need to make that sacrifice. Its defenses, especially without investment, are quite mediocre and so you'll have to have another ground which can sometimes be limiting in the builder. Still a meme mon but def good enough for even mid ladder I find myself in (1600-1700).
 
Just waiting until the mods blacklist Scyther, don't mind me! All jokes aside though, I suppose Scyther is somewhat usable but also extremely conditional and support reliant. It's not the type of mon you use because you need it on your team, it's the type of mon you try to center other mons around in an attempt to get it to work.
I guess the conversation boils down to if you have to do all that to create positive circumstances for Scyther, and it still gets out performed by virtually everything else in that role, really only offering two borderline useful qualities in it's STABs, then is it really going to be worth the slot? My guess is shaping your team structure around a weak pivot won't lead to the most consistent outcomes. Scizor runs into similar issues in OU, and I've tried a few times to make that Mon work, but it doesn't threaten enough while being bulky enough, and gets outperformed by so many other band/SD mons.
So after seeing talks about Scyther in OU, I decided to tool around with it and see how it played out in my endless quest to use lower-tier Pokemon in OU; what sets worked, which ones didn't, such and such. One of the main posts in the thread was absolutely correct that using Heavy-Duty Boots really meant it couldn't do much on either the Offensive or Defensive spectrum.

Band was nice, but whenever it would get Knocked Off, it would lose a huge chunk of utility and power and would have a hard time doing much beyond that initial burst. I kept struggling with what item to pick until I realized... there's no need to have one with one specific set that actually worked wonders for what I needed it to do in the tier. Itemless Scyther actually helped to cripple opposing team cores thanks to a unique group of benefits that other Pokemon simply did not have.


Scyther
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Thief
- U-turn
- Roost / Bug Bite​

Scyther works as a wonderful "hit and run" mon of sorts. Technician-boosted STAB Dual Wingbeat will be your go-to move most of the time. Beyond that is where the set truly starts to take shape. Technician-boosted Thief allows you to tear an opposing Pokemon's item away, acting as an even more potent Knock Off while giving yourself the benefit of a new item. STAB U-Turn is, as always, fantastic for pivots. The last slot depends on your preference. If you'd like Scyther to have additional longevity, run Roost; if you'd like an additional non-pivot STAB move, run Bug Bite. Finally, Scyther requires significant hazard removal support if you're not running Heavy-Duty Boots (which I would not recommend doing) and definitely has flaws. However, with its great traits, high attack and speed, and great Technician boosted STAB move and tech options, I've found that Scyther has a pretty interesting niche in OU.

As mentioned, Scyther is VERY conditional but can loop circles around your opponent if you predict correctly.
 

Heatran @ Assault Vest
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Magma Storm
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Burning Jealousy

An Assault Vest Heatran can take special attacks easier from special attackers such as Zapdos and much more. Burning Jealousy is prefered for burning foes such as Hawlucha when it tries to set up with Swords Dance or even when it switches in too. Fire Blast has more power and accuracy than Magma Storm but it lacks trapping opponents

With this set, Heatran is 2HKOed by the opposing Heatran's Earth Power.

0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 204-244 (52.8 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 248-296 (64.2 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Heatran @ Assault Vest
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Magma Storm
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Burning Jealousy

An Assault Vest Heatran can take special attacks easier from special attackers such as Zapdos and much more. Burning Jealousy is prefered for burning foes such as Hawlucha when it tries to set up with Swords Dance or even when it switches in too. Fire Blast has more power and accuracy than Magma Storm but it lacks trapping opponents

With this set, Heatran is 2HKOed by the opposing Heatran's Earth Power.

0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 204-244 (52.8 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 248-296 (64.2 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Honestly to me feels a bit pointless as a set, spdef Tran would do almost the same job with lefties without losing on longevity, especially if rocks are involved. In addition I feel offensive Tran becomes much more wallable when lacking Taunt or Toxic so if going in that direction and don't want to use lefties you could go for Air Balloon or even Power Herb Solar Beam if you feel like it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 103-123 (26.6 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Heatran: 115-136 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
As I said, Flamethrower has 100% accuracy, but its weaker than Magma Storm or Fire Blast. Ancient Power lets Hit Volcarona Harder and pray of you get the 10% chance boosts. Steel Beam is powerful but it hurts Heatran's longevity.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 416-492 (133.7 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 416-492 (111.5 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Choice Specs Fire Blast can OHKO Volcarona, but it has 43.8% chance (90.9 - 107.3%). It can OHKO under sun, just like Magma Storm.

A Choice Band Heatran can be funny, taking advantage of its immense weight to use Heat Crash and Heavy Slam.

252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Clefable: 510-602 (129.4 - 152.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 454-535 (63.5 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zapdos: 318-376 (99 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 12 Def Slowking-Galar: 330-390 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 12 Def Slowking-Galar in Sun: 447-526 (113.4 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Heatran @ Assault Vest
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Magma Storm
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Burning Jealousy

An Assault Vest Heatran can take special attacks easier from special attackers such as Zapdos and much more. Burning Jealousy is prefered for burning foes such as Hawlucha when it tries to set up with Swords Dance or even when it switches in too. Fire Blast has more power and accuracy than Magma Storm but it lacks trapping opponents

With this set, Heatran is 2HKOed by the opposing Heatran's Earth Power.

0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 204-244 (52.8 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 248-296 (64.2 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Taking away lefties makes Tran’s weakness of longevity even more defined. Unless u plan on wish passing into it, av will just make it easier to chip down especially when hazards go up.
 
Taking away lefties makes Tran’s weakness of longevity even more defined. Unless u plan on wish passing into it, av will just make it easier to chip down especially when hazards go up.
Speaking of Blissey, Clefable and Latias, I say its an good teammate and plus hazard removers such as Rapid Spin and Defog can help Heatran more.
 
Heatran is a huge lover of Grassy Terrain, and it completely checks Rillaboom's or Tapu Bulu's weaknesses too. In such a team an Assault Vest Heatran could do the trick...but in such a team, Leftovers Heatran heals so much at each turn that it does not need the Assault Vest anymore. In addition, look, if you need to bring Burning Jealousy in Heatran's moveset, that means there is nothing more interesting to put instead. So you can't even take advantage of the fact you're forced to run offensive moves to diversify your coverage options. That's another point against it in my book.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
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I don't really know what AV Tran is particularly trying to achieve? Running AV cuts into its resilience against hazards and Leech Seed, hurts its general longevity, and locks it out of utility options like Toxic, Stealth Rock, and Taunt that are a large part of why Heatran is good in the first place. It doesn’t fill a specific defensive utility niche like Air Balloon does, it doesn’t particularly do anything for Heatran’s matchup spread, and it provides no offensive utility either (if anything being less offensively potent bc u can’t run Taunt or Toxic). You could patch up a lack of Lefties with Grassy Terrain or Wish, but you could also just use Leftovers to enhance their effects, which will generally have a bigger long-term impact, especially given that Heatran is in the same boat as Ferrothorn in that it is one of those “at low health until it isn’t” kinda mons that can and will very consistently recover vast amounts of HP over the course of a game without direct recovery moves or Regenerator.

As for the set itself, Burning Jealousy is horrible. Genuinely one of the worst moves in the game. Just run Lava Plume if you want to burn stuff alongside AV; that way, you have an option for proactive status spreading (letting you burn Pokémon that come in against Heatran) and you aren’t forced to disrespect a bad matchup against a setup sweeper for it to do something useful. Hell, the sweeper could just as easily just stay in, nuke you, and then not face any consequences if Heatran happens to live bc the attack is only 70 BP and will never burn if they don’t boost on the exact same turn. The risk:reward is so far skewed out of Heatran’s favour that it is just not worthwhile.
 
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Mew @ Life Orb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Focus Energy
- Psycho Cut
- Drill Run / Leaf Blade
- Blaze Kick

I call this CritMew. Focus Energy raises it critical hit ratio and has lot of moves with high critical ratio meaning it can bypass Defense Boosts with its 100% crit chance. Drill Run catches Heatran off guard and OHKOes it on a critical hit. Leaf Blade hits Slowbro and Tapu Fini which are both 2HKOed, however Choice Scarf Tapu Fini has 68.8% chance to be OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Blaze Kick OHKOes Kartana and for a physically defensive Ferrothorn, Blaze Kick must crit or be used under sun to OHKO it, otherwise it will be 2HKOed by it. Psycho Cut is the prefered move since it pairs well after a Focus Energy, it can deal a lot of damage on Psychic Terrain, needing Tapu Lele as a Teammate. Mew likes Wish, Healing Wish or Heal Bell / Aromatherapy Support as well.
 

Mew @ Life Orb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Focus Energy
- Psycho Cut
- Drill Run / Leaf Blade
- Blaze Kick

I call this CritMew. Focus Energy raises it critical hit ratio and has lot of moves with high critical ratio meaning it can bypass Defense Boosts with its 100% crit chance. Drill Run catches Heatran off guard and OHKOes it on a critical hit. Leaf Blade hits Slowbro and Tapu Fini which are both 2HKOed, however Choice Scarf Tapu Fini has 68.8% chance to be OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Blaze Kick OHKOes Kartana and for a physically defensive Ferrothorn, Blaze Kick must crit or be used under sun to OHKO it, otherwise it will be 2HKOed by it. Psycho Cut is the prefered move since it pairs well after a Focus Energy, it can deal a lot of damage on Psychic Terrain, needing Tapu Lele as a Teammate. Mew likes Wish, Healing Wish or Heal Bell / Aromatherapy Support as well.
Not to be rude but can we please have some quality control on some of the sets that are being posted in metagame discussion? Golurk being discussed at all, but especially AV, AV tran, and now crit mew. We have a heat thread dedicated to stuff like this.

Using offensive mew is already hard to build with and use but this set just doesn't do what made offensive mew anywhere close to viable.

Why go for a crit mew when you can just SD? The only bonus you get is breaking through defense boosting mons which is not super common, and the more common ones still sit on you like corv. Worse, you have to have a scuffed moveset with lower base power moves (drill run's 80 vs earthquake's 100) (psycho cut's 70 vs psychic fangs' 85). Mew's base 100 attack is pretty bad in modern pokemon and really needs that beefed up coverage it recently got to be threatening. Mew just isn't threatening with blaze kick (85), but can be with flare blitz (120). Not threatening with drill run (80) but can be with earthquake (100). Not threatening with leaf blade (90 and grass:blobnauseated: ) but can be with triple axel (120 and ice :blobthumbsup:). This power drop sucks for any Pokemon but mew already has issues being threatening and this just compounds it, it NEEDS high power moves on an offensive set to break through.

Even worse still, you can't double focus energy and super crit for 3x damage, so if you can ever SD twice you now hit way harder than crit mew. Even if you only SD once the move power differential is so high it doesn't matter.

Not only does the power suck but you are losing the literal only reason you use offensive mew. It has super customizable, high-power coverage for your team. Such a colorful move pool reduced to only the shitty high crit moves. You're telling me you're gonna skip out on CC, gunk shot, brave bird, flare blitz, mega horn, power whip, poltergeist, earthquake, iron tail, and triple axel? These move are all >100 base power and help mew lure and snipe many Pokemon for your team. And some of these moves you'd never run, so you'd better believe most of the high crit moves (the only usable one would be stone edge, and the coverage isn't even super useful for mew) would never even cross my mind.

Also the speed from dd is prob better anyway.
 
Dude is at least thinking outside the box, which I can respect even if it isn’t all that viable. It’s honestly better than having a thread that’s dead most of the week, which this one has been. The golurk post actually sparked some discussion, and it could be useful on some people’s teams (even if it is a bit gimmicky). Gatekeeping what people can post makes newcomers less likely to post, which is detrimental to the long term health of the community.
 
Not to be rude but can we please have some quality control on some of the sets that are being posted in metagame discussion? Golurk being discussed at all, but especially AV, AV tran, and now crit mew. We have a heat thread dedicated to stuff like this.
There's been like three posts in this thread since Wednesday. Don't be a jerk.

The rest of your post was great but the first paragraph was pretty unnecessary. I should know, since 99% of my Smogon comments are just low effort shit posts.

There is no quality control on the sets posted here because it is YOUR job to explain why something does or does not work. It's called a discussion, which is right in the title of this thread.
 
Mew's base 100 attack is pretty bad in modern pokemon and really needs that beefed up coverage it recently got to be threatening.
It's much the same as Tornadus-Therian, Dracozolt or Victini

There a Lot of Coverange that Mew can have on a Swords Dance or Dragon Dance Set:

Poltergeist Hits Slowbro More Harder and it has 87.5% chance to OHKO it after a Swords Dance with Adamant Nature.

Stone Edge can Hit Zapdos hard without having to worry about Static. OHKOes it after a Swords Dance against defensive variants while its offensive variants are OHKOed after a Dragon Dance.

Brave Bird OHKOes Buzzwole and it has 43.8% chance to OHKO Rillaboom (93.8% chance to OHKO with Adamant nature).

Gunk Shot Slays Tapu Koko Tapu Fini, Tapu Lele and Clefable.

And For the Nasty Plot sets:

Scald can inflict burns to Landorus-Therian and Tyranitar.

Sludge Wave hits the pokemon that I mentioned with Gunk Shot.

Earth Power can OHKO Heatran at the same way as Earthquake does after a boost.

Power Gem can OHKO Volcarona after a Calm Mind or Nasty Plot boost and a Tanga Berry allows to take less damage from Bug Buzz and with a Special defense boost.
 

Amstan

beebadoobea
is a Tiering Contributor
It's much the same as Tornadus-Therian, Dracozolt or Victini

There a Lot of Coverange that Mew can have on a Swords Dance or Dragon Dance Set:

Poltergeist Hits Slowbro More Harder and it has 87.5% chance to OHKO it after a Swords Dance with Adamant Nature.

Stone Edge can Hit Zapdos hard without having to worry about Static. OHKOes it after a Swords Dance against defensive variants while its offensive variants are OHKOed after a Dragon Dance.

Brave Bird OHKOes Buzzwole and it has 43.8% chance to OHKO Rillaboom (93.8% chance to OHKO with Adamant nature).

Gunk Shot Slays Tapu Koko Tapu Fini, Tapu Lele and Clefable.

And For the Nasty Plot sets:

Scald can inflict burns to Landorus-Therian and Tyranitar.

Sludge Wave hits the pokemon that I mentioned with Gunk Shot.

Earth Power can OHKO Heatran at the same way as Earthquake does after a boost.

Power Gem can OHKO Volcarona after a Calm Mind or Nasty Plot boost and a Tanga Berry allows to take less damage from Bug Buzz and with a Special defense boost.
"Its much the same for Tornadus-Therian". who the hell is using physical torn?? plus Victini and Dracozolt make up their low attack stats with high power moves,(bolt beak and v create respectively). dracozolt also provides speed control if you face the 1 person who actually uses it on ladder and victini is a great pivot with turn and encore or some shit like that.

First of all, mew is generally a suicide lead or cosmic power. SD mew is kinda just stupid because you'd rather have the speed boost as well and the targets that you mentioned wont stay in after seeing a mew sd. for example, buzzwole. buzzwole will assume you have a psychic move so brave bird does nothing. this mew also wants alot of moves to hit corv, ferro and basically any bulky steel in the tier.

Nasty plot mew actually seems kinda cool as a revenge killer with weav+kart and a sweeper with vacume wave but still the point still stands. its targets don't like eating a +2 anything, so they end up switching out and the mew becomes useless.
 
Dude is at least thinking outside the box, which I can respect even if it isn’t all that viable. It’s honestly better than having a thread that’s dead most of the week, which this one has been. The golurk post actually sparked some discussion, and it could be useful on some people’s teams (even if it is a bit gimmicky). Gatekeeping what people can post makes newcomers less likely to post, which is detrimental to the long term health of the community.
Nothing wrong with thinking outside the box, but you have to fill the box first. I am all for interesting sets, I am not super competitive about this game myself. But I think in the meta game discussion thread if you post some random set like that crit mew, or some other off meta mon you should be able to write about why you would use that set. Both above other sets and other mons. There is opportunity cost in this game, so crit mew in a vacuum might be functional (at best) but in the actual game you have a set that literally does everything it aims to do but better. I don't think it is a lot to ask to have posts at least somewhat thought about before being made. Like, which post is cooler? One where I post a really heat set, but don't explain why you would use it, and it is so heat it is just worse than other sets, or one where it maybe is just a neat tech, or a straightforward set on a neat mon but I explain its niche and why you would slot it, what match ups it struggles in and what partners are good for it. I feel like the latter is the one we should be striving for in a metagame discussion thread. We have the heat thread for the former and they should go there. Quality over quantity, I don't care if this thread has less activity if it means we aren't discussing the merits of crit mew.

Second of all, just thinking of sets in a vacuum makes you never get better at this game, so forcing people to do some actual thinking about their sets is good for them and make the posts better to read. Even talking about accessibility, if you are a new player and go to the metagame discussion thread and you have no way of separating frankly low effort sets from players who are not very knowledgeable from players with some sort of foundation in the game. Getting bad sets and doing poorly on the ladder as a result is also bad for retention. I think you should be able to go to this thread and get some good sets being used or some neat mons with good sets and how you should use them.

I would like to gatekeep on quality of posts, not necessarily how good a player is. I'm not some supreme showdown player. I'm in the 1600 and 1700s which is something like top 15% or so which is pretty good. Many of the tournament players would frankly say I'm shit at the game, and compared to them I probably am. My opinions are not nearly as informed as theirs and their insight on the metagame makes their posts much better than mine. But at least when I put a post about something I am actually thinking about my set. I think having players have to think about their mon in the meta that surrounds them is what separates this from just being another project heat thread. We already have that so why have them both be the same?
There's been like three posts in this thread since Wednesday. Don't be a jerk.

The rest of your post was great but the first paragraph was pretty unnecessary. I should know, since 99% of my Smogon comments are just low effort shit posts.

There is no quality control on the sets posted here because it is YOUR job to explain why something does or does not work. It's called a discussion, which is right in the title of this thread.
Already addressed this in the above but like I said I think the quality of posts should probably be above project heat which is literally a meme thread. Forcing players to actually think why they would use their set, what partners to put with it and how to pilot it is good for them and the community. Project heat is the thread for hot dropping a drippy set. If the crit mew guy was forced to think why he would use that set over SD or DD he would have immediately thought, "oh damn I'm losing so much power and coverage with this set". I really don't think that's a bad thing and frankly will help players get better. This game is not played in a vacuum it's played in meta (ironically is supposed to be the point of this thread) so you'd better believe I think people should have to explain why their set is better than alternative sets and mons and how the new set or mon fits in the meta. Or we can just turn this thread into project heat 2.

Obviously not every post will be some revolutionary discovery and some sets might be totally outclassed. That could be a decent discussion, but having the person think about their set is really positive for that discussion. Can that discussion really be that interesting if all I have to say as the set is just straight up worse than two you can run and accomplish the same thing? I don't personally think so.

And considering the discussion surrounding why we say "trapping is fundamentally uncompetitive except for on magnezone haha that one is TOTALLY different" was considered so irrelevant it should be deleted, I really don't think that saying crit mew is crossing a line of quality control we probably don't want to cross is that bold of a claim.
 

Heatran @ Assault Vest
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Magma Storm
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Burning Jealousy

An Assault Vest Heatran can take special attacks easier from special attackers such as Zapdos and much more. Burning Jealousy is prefered for burning foes such as Hawlucha when it tries to set up with Swords Dance or even when it switches in too. Fire Blast has more power and accuracy than Magma Storm but it lacks trapping opponents

With this set, Heatran is 2HKOed by the opposing Heatran's Earth Power.

0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 204-244 (52.8 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 248-296 (64.2 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
this set actually loses to standard spdef tran because it runs 24 spe evs therefore nabbing kos.
I'd recommend using lefties they are much better but if u really want to run av run:
Heatran @ Assault Vest
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 232 SpA / 28 Spe
Modest / Calm Nature
also defensive ev sets could be run
Heatran @ Assault Vest
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 232 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
Heatran @ Assault Vest
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
These evs work better, guaranteeing u a ko against standard heatran (hp makes it so u land at an odd number)
i mean i do run 28 spe on my tran sets (otherwise just standard but with 248 hp, guarantees odd number and outspeeding other heatran sets even tho i always run no spa evs) so in case u fight someone doing that u might lose
 

Mew @ Life Orb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Focus Energy
- Psycho Cut
- Drill Run / Leaf Blade
- Blaze Kick

I call this CritMew. Focus Energy raises it critical hit ratio and has lot of moves with high critical ratio meaning it can bypass Defense Boosts with its 100% crit chance. Drill Run catches Heatran off guard and OHKOes it on a critical hit. Leaf Blade hits Slowbro and Tapu Fini which are both 2HKOed, however Choice Scarf Tapu Fini has 68.8% chance to be OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Blaze Kick OHKOes Kartana and for a physically defensive Ferrothorn, Blaze Kick must crit or be used under sun to OHKO it, otherwise it will be 2HKOed by it. Psycho Cut is the prefered move since it pairs well after a Focus Energy, it can deal a lot of damage on Psychic Terrain, needing Tapu Lele as a Teammate. Mew likes Wish, Healing Wish or Heal Bell / Aromatherapy Support as well.
no just no please no dd/sd is more consistent, means u dont have to run awful moves to maximize ur strat and is just overall more splashable.
u dont want to run mew as a sweeper tbh apart from demon mew stored power sets it doesnt really have much going for it given its typing and awkward mythical stats
 
Nothing wrong with thinking outside the box, but you have to fill the box first. I am all for interesting sets, I am not super competitive about this game myself. But I think in the meta game discussion thread if you post some random set like that crit mew, or some other off meta mon you should be able to write about why you would use that set. Both above other sets and other mons. There is opportunity cost in this game, so crit mew in a vacuum might be functional (at best) but in the actual game you have a set that literally does everything it aims to do but better. I don't think it is a lot to ask to have posts at least somewhat thought about before being made. Like, which post is cooler? One where I post a really heat set, but don't explain why you would use it, and it is so heat it is just worse than other sets, or one where it maybe is just a neat tech, or a straightforward set on a neat mon but I explain its niche and why you would slot it, what match ups it struggles in and what partners are good for it. I feel like the latter is the one we should be striving for in a metagame discussion thread. We have the heat thread for the former and they should go there. Quality over quantity, I don't care if this thread has less activity if it means we aren't discussing the merits of crit mew.

Second of all, just thinking of sets in a vacuum makes you never get better at this game, so forcing people to do some actual thinking about their sets is good for them and make the posts better to read. Even talking about accessibility, if you are a new player and go to the metagame discussion thread and you have no way of separating frankly low effort sets from players who are not very knowledgeable from players with some sort of foundation in the game. Getting bad sets and doing poorly on the ladder as a result is also bad for retention. I think you should be able to go to this thread and get some good sets being used or some neat mons with good sets and how you should use them.

I would like to gatekeep on quality of posts, not necessarily how good a player is. I'm not some supreme showdown player. I'm in the 1600 and 1700s which is something like top 15% or so which is pretty good. Many of the tournament players would frankly say I'm shit at the game, and compared to them I probably am. My opinions are not nearly as informed as theirs and their insight on the metagame makes their posts much better than mine. But at least when I put a post about something I am actually thinking about my set. I think having players have to think about their mon in the meta that surrounds them is what separates this from just being another project heat thread. We already have that so why have them both be the same?


Already addressed this in the above but like I said I think the quality of posts should probably be above project heat which is literally a meme thread. Forcing players to actually think why they would use their set, what partners to put with it and how to pilot it is good for them and the community. Project heat is the thread for hot dropping a drippy set. If the crit mew guy was forced to think why he would use that set over SD or DD he would have immediately thought, "oh damn I'm losing so much power and coverage with this set". I really don't think that's a bad thing and frankly will help players get better. This game is not played in a vacuum it's played in meta (ironically is supposed to be the point of this thread) so you'd better believe I think people should have to explain why their set is better than alternative sets and mons and how the new set or mon fits in the meta. Or we can just turn this thread into project heat 2.

Obviously not every post will be some revolutionary discovery and some sets might be totally outclassed. That could be a decent discussion, but having the person think about their set is really positive for that discussion. Can that discussion really be that interesting if all I have to say as the set is just straight up worse than two you can run and accomplish the same thing? I don't personally think so.

And considering the discussion surrounding why we say "trapping is fundamentally uncompetitive except for on magnezone haha that one is TOTALLY different" was considered so irrelevant it should be deleted, I really don't think that saying crit mew is crossing a line of quality control we probably don't want to cross is that bold of a claim.
yeah, I think the key though that was being emphasized above is to not be rude about it without seeing the full picture. Some " heat" sets can work wherever the player posting them is at skill-wise, so it's possible they tested Crit mew but on low ladder and it saw success and they are unable to see beyond that. They should be able to post that here, but then be corrected. And I agree they should be held accountable to explain the set, which tbf posting calcs and such shows at least some effort into what the set can accomplish.

A new player likely doesn't know what the good "meta" sets are and why they are meta, but they are still allowed to post here since any one with a smogon account can. If only "good" players were allowed to post sets it would be a very different kind of thread.

A while back for Example I posted a Weavile set, SD taunt ice shard knock as an idea just to see what people would think and look for feedback. The set loses a lot of power but in theory taunt has applications like expediting the toxapex matchup, etc. But overall after seeing the feedback, I moved on from it and quickly figured out myself that I really dislike losing the power of triple axel. But if I had to run a Taunt weavile, i'd probably drop ice shard and pair with scarf lele since the terrain conflict means ice shard won't always be viable anyway, and lele can still revenge kill the stuff ice shard is usually intended to RK, like +1 Dnite etc
 

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