Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Latias (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Healing Wish / Trick
- Psyshock
- Draco Meteor
- Aura Sphere / Mystical Fire

This is the same Choice Specs set from SM (the previous generation), but with a twist: Having Aura Sphere and Mystical Fire.
why would you even do this
what is wrong with you are you just shitposting
edit yh that was rude
 
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I don't mean to be rude, but these set specific posts belong in the heat sub-forum, not the metagame discussion thread. As the name implies this forum is dedicated to metagame discussion, not set posting on mass. I encourage those of you contributing to go post there, but this isn't the intended use of this thread and should really stop.
 
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I dont even see that much of a problem with "heat" sets being posted here, mostly because the heat thread feels more like a set dump to me and not really something where people discuss what's being posted.

Like the Scyther saga from last week actually had some insightful responses about the intial post and how you could try to run the mon to get mileage out of it.

The main difference was that that post had a detailed explanation about the set (even though the set as a whole was questionable), rather than a single line about how it was a common moveset in a previous gen.

I doubt people really mind heat sets posted here, but I think Hyper Go Ons is just posting too frequently about weird sets that it becomes a bit annoying.

Gonna echo a post made before and say that just because you can make a set, it doesnt mean you should. Try to think more about why you would run a heat set, what role it accomplishes (both in a vacuum and on a team) and if there's simply not a better alternative out there before posting it here.

If a seemingly bad set work well specifically on the team you made, post the team and explain why it works well in there!

As an example, I often run Leafeon on my sun teams. This isn't because it's a good sun sweeper as mono grass is a horendous offensive type. It's pretty middling and doesn't sweep very well. Rather, it's there because it holds a Power Herb and has Dig, allowing it to lure in Heatran and remove it from the game. This sets up the rest of the team to clean up with sun boosted Fire moves because the only viable Fire immunity has been taken out.
 
I simply don't think these sets reflect the current meta nor do they reflect an informed player's understanding of the current meta - as certain heat sets tend to do - by responding to popular & exploitable trends. The last few pages have been noise, as far as I'm concerned.

Here's a more relevant question: what's the read on the mandatory Ground-type for a team? I remember Gastro surging in usage last month, and more Excadrill on sand, but do most players still just slap a Lando on BO and call it a day?
 
As an example, I often run Leafeon on my sun teams. This isn't because it's a good sun sweeper as mono grass is a horendous offensive type. It's pretty middling and doesn't sweep very well. Rather, it's there because it holds a Power Herb and has Dig, allowing it to lure in Heatran and remove it from the game. This sets up the rest of the team to clean up with sun boosted Fire moves because the only viable Fire immunity has been taken out.
At +2 Power Herb Solar Blade (62 bp due to sand) can OHKO Tyranitar so its uses aren't strictly limited to Dig. It also works as a general desperation move if you can't keep the sun up to allow Leafeon one last strike. Dig can also pop Bisharp, Magnezone, and Melmetal.

Pretty neat tech!
 
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Here's a more relevant question: what's the read on the mandatory Ground-type for a team? I remember Gastro surging in usage last month, and more Excadrill on sand, but do most players still just slap a Lando on BO and call it a day?
My go-to ground is still Garchomp because it adds a fire resist that Lando lacks, making it a more consistent answer to Heatran and Volcarona. It is weaker to Koko, although with koko now opting for Nature's Madness a bit more often it's not as bad. Plus you can get some rough skin chip if you read an incoming U-turn correctly.
Also lando-t is ugly

Lando's still the best general use ground mon in the tier, as it can do almost any role really well. Rocks, Defog, Knock, Toxic, HO lead, etc. The other grounds are more specific in their use. Chomp offers more speed and sweeping potential and has better options for lure/trap sets with moves like Fire Blast or Whirlpool, Hippo and Gastrodon are more fat walls that are bigger momentum drains which make them harder to fit on certain structures. Excadrill is basically tied to sand imo, I've never really felt like a sandless Drill posed any threat to my teams.

To me, the big thing that sets Lando apart from the other grounds is it's access to U-turn. Chomp is an ok pivot, but often teams have answers for it so you'll have to read a switch correctly to maintain a favourable position. Hippo and Gastro just sit there, and I have no real experience with using Drill.


At +2 Power Herb Solar Blade (62 bp due to sand) can OHKO Tyranitar so its uses aren't strictly limited to Dig. It also works as a general desperation move if you can't keep the sun up to allow Leafeon one last strike. Dig can also pop Bisharp, Magnezone, and Melmetal.

Pretty neat tech!
Oh yeah Leafeon can be used for non-heatran mons too, it's definitely not that it only deals with heatran and is a sitting duck outside of that, maybe I worded the paragraph poorly. STAB Solar Blade can still dent things, even resists, at +2, and it gets access to Knock too which is nice. It can lure in other steels like you mentioned if Heatran is absent but usually they get fried to a crisp anyway because it's a sun team and nothing really takes specs eruptions during sun too well.
 
Here's a more relevant question: what's the read on the mandatory Ground-type for a team? I remember Gastro surging in usage last month, and more Excadrill on sand, but do most players still just slap a Lando on BO and call it a day?
I hate hate Lando-T, so I'm using different grounds. Excadrill is a nice one. It completely shuts down Tapu Koko, and with Toxic it also makes progress against incoming Zapdos/Slowbro/Buzzwole. Rapid Spin is great on spikes team where removing your own hazards is annoying. Its 4x resistance to SR and immunity to Toxik Spikes means as long as spikes are off the field, it will heal on switch-in with its lefties. As an added bonus, it's a great switch-in to Banded Stone Edge from Tyranitar too, and it can serve as an emergency speed control when facing sand teams.
 
I believe that the "species clause" should NOT apply to both the original pokemon and their regional forms.

the regional forms are different than the originals therefore they should be treated as separate species.

there are cases where the regionals feel nothing like the originals. like in zapdos and galarian zapdos.

also there is one extreem case of the pokemon scyther and scizor which makes you question:what even is a different species?

scyther is one of the few if not the only pokemon whose evolved form has the exact same stat total.
so let's do a thought experiment:

you are transfered in a universe where scyther never received an evolution, and scizor is just its regional form named "galarian scyther", also there is a scyther-exclusive item that boosts its defences by 50% just like the eviolite.

in that universe it would be against the rules to include both of these pokemon in the same team although the game would not breake any more than it would break now, and now it is not broken at all.

also keep in mind that right now it is against the rules to include mr.mime on the same team with its galarian form but it is okay to include it in the same team with mr.rime.

I really don't see any reason to treat the regionals as one and the same as the originals.
maybe if the regionals changed nothing other than their appearance then I would agree with the clause but they always change their stats ability and in most cases their typying.
 
I feel inclined to agree with Soi, but I never saw an argument for species ban on regional forms. I can imagine that the opinion is that it would overcomplicate the ruleset, but a simple exception subrole would be pretty self explanatory. Something like "As regional forms are vastly different from their regular forms, they are considered as their own species. As such, regional and regular forms of the same Pokemon can be used on the same team."
 
I simply don't think these sets reflect the current meta nor do they reflect an informed player's understanding of the current meta - as certain heat sets tend to do - by responding to popular & exploitable trends. The last few pages have been noise, as far as I'm concerned.

Here's a more relevant question: what's the read on the mandatory Ground-type for a team? I remember Gastro surging in usage last month, and more Excadrill on sand, but do most players still just slap a Lando on BO and call it a day?
It all depends on the kind of team you are going for, bearing in mind what you need by teambuilding standards such as momentum, immediate power, role compression, and synergy. Landorus is the most splashable for a reason, being the coveted ground and electric-type immunity that manages a wide variety of threats and has utility such as Stealth Rock, Defog, Knock Off, and U-Turn.

Likewise, other ground-types have similar benefits they offer to teams. Gastrodon rose in popularity as a response to Rotom-W, Heatran, Nidoking, Volcanion and rain, in addition to conveniently answering other specially offensive threats thanks to its reliable recovery. Hippowdown also possesses reliable recovery, in addition to Stealth Rock and Sand Stream which are very valuable.

Garchomp has contact effects, a larger coverage and set pool, and the ability to better check Heatran, Volcarona, Victini, and Blacephalon thanks to a fire-type resistance. Although it is worse at checking fighting-types, and can't handle Tapu Koko.

Excadrill's access to Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin, steel typing, and Sand Rush ability make it a valuable sand member. However, it is very archetype specific and rarely fits on anything outside of sand.

Nidoking is a great offensive threat in its own right but is very matchup specific, role specific, and as a ground-type, rather frail. It fits specifically on offensive and balance teams that can complement its inability to really capitalize defensively on its ground-typing.
 
Excadrill's access to Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin, steel typing, and Sand Rush ability make it a valuable sand member. However, it is very archetype specific and rarely fits on anything outside of sand.
However, Sand Force Boosts Excadrill's STAB Moves and Rock type moves in Sandstorm, but it doesn't boost its speed.
 
However, Sand Force Boosts Excadrill's STAB Moves and Rock type moves in Sandstorm, but it doesn't boost its speed.
This would certainly be a valid point if it was Gen 5 where sand rush is banned. However I'm not sure that sand force drill has any relevant niche in gen 8 that's worth the massive opportunity cost of giving up an ability as powerful as Sand rush.

Especially since it also has to compete with mold breaker which at least has the useful application of overcoming rotom wash.
 
Does Tentacruel have anything even vaguely close to a niche in this meta? Scald / Sludge Bomb / Knock Off / Rapid Spin with Assault Vest is weirdly hard to switch in on, trading with a surprising number of OU Pokémon. It can even run Mirror Coat, Ice Beam, or Toxic Spikes.

Of course the elephant in the room is Toxapex who does pretty much everything defensively that Tentacruel can. However Tentacruel is less passive, faster, and can put offense in an uncomfortable spot late game with Tenta’s coverage and +1 speed. Another downside is that 80 base sp attack can’t easily OHKO things even when invested and 4x super effective.

Or are Tentacruel’s gen 5 glory days long behind it?
 
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You also have to justify using it over Fini, which has a lot of Tentacruel's strongish points, such as hazard control, usable speed, and the ability to pivot/check against Urshifu while being a little less passive than pex. Fini can do all that and more, and its typing is pretty much a straight upgrade to Tcruel's.
 
Does Tentacruel have anything even vaguely close to a niche in this meta? Scald / Sludge Bomb / Knock Off / Rapid Spin with Assault Vest is weirdly hard to switch in on, trading with a surprising number of OU Pokémon. It can even run Mirror Coat, Ice Beam, or Toxic Spikes.

Of course the elephant in the room is Toxapex who does pretty much everything defensively that Tentacruel can. However Tentacruel is less passive, faster, and can put offense in an uncomfortable spot late game with Tenta’s coverage and +1 speed. Another downside is that 80 base sp attack can’t easily OHKO things even when 4x invested and super effective.

Or are Tentacruel’s gen 5 glory days long behind it?
Tentacruel's main problem is that it doesn't have the longevity to be a consistent defensive staple; you want recovery, you're restricted to your item slot or Giga Drain (which is nice on paper, but that 80 SpA leaves its damage lacking and consequently its recovery rather underwhelming). ITentacruel really isn't that bulky, either, unless you spec heavily in phys Def. And even then:
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 254-302 (69.7 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

If you were to use Tenta, it'd probably be best on fast paced offensive teams, as its movepool does grant it a nice utility option and the few turns you did get with it would be just enough to make things happen, plus it can pressure annoying mons like Fini and Clefable. That said, you're probably better off just using Black Sludge as item so you at least have some longevity.
~~~​
Been a while since I posted here, so I felt that I should at least post something new. So, hot take of my own:
:ss/Urshifu-Rapid-Strike:
I think Protective Pads might be the superior item on Urshifu over Band. Now, I know what you're all thinking: Surging Strikes + rocky Helmet/Garchomp/Ferrothorn on right prediction. And yes, chip damage is a huge problem for Da Fu, negating its Rocks resistance and naturally solid physical bulk (enough to survive Arctozolt Bolt Beak if you Jet), especially with common staples like Fini, Zapdos and Dragonite forcing it to constantly U-turn. But in my experience, that actually wasn't the main issue I found using Urshifu in practice.

To put it simply, I feel Band Urshifu has become the new Specs Dragapult. Yes, both are undeniably powerful and have U-turn to pressure the opponent even if they don't commit to an attack, which in turn forces careful prediction on the opponent's part; and that's the problem. I've found that, even on mid-ladder, players are so scared of Urshifu that they've become accustomed to predicting it, and when Urshifu is locked in that's not ideal, especially since, unlike Dragapult, Urshifu's speed tier is solid but not great, meaning one round of chip off of U-turn hurts it a lot more than Pult since being able to take hits is more important. And when they guess right, being locked in with Shifu can easily put you in a tough spot.

While a risk for every Choice user, Urshifu has this positioning problem on the worse side since it heavily prefers being on offense (pretty much every partner in its description is an offense staple), meaning its teammates are not necessarily the best at covering a positioning error defensively. Additionally, Shifu is a Pokemon of solid pros but glaring cons; it has :
  • Breaking power
  • Coverage
  • Pivoting
  • Solid physical bulk
But
  • A vulnerability to contact triggers :Zapdos::Garchomp:
  • Bad SpD :Dragapult:
  • A Speed tier that leaves it vulnerable to opposing offense threats including stuff it should check on paper like Blacephalon. You do not want to give Blacephalon free turns. :Blacephalon:
Choice-locking can also just be a hinderance in late-game scenarios, as seen here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1638831298
:ss/Landorus-Therian:
"Ha ha. I have the advantage- somehow."

If I didn't get that crit, I would have lost, which would not have been an issue if I could change up moves and safely use Surging Strikes. "But wouldn't Pads not have Jet"? Well, for my last few games with this team I switched Band to Pads out of curiosity, same moveset, and it didn't really affect anything. Meaning it didn't really hurt me in practice. And I got that curiosity because every other Shifu I faced during that run was Pads- and they messed me up on a consistent basis. Partly because I wasn't expecting it to be so common, but also because it turns out non-locked Shifu is really scary for an offense team to deal with. Running Pads has some crucial pros:
  1. Flexibility. :Toxapex: :Clefable:
    1. Obviously you have not just more in-game flexibility, but also more room to experiment in your moveset. You can Taunt defensive Pokemon you struggle with and/or use Bulk Up to clean up and decimate slower teams.
  2. Key match-ups. :Zapdos: :Garchomp: :Volcanion:
    1. Garchomp, especially TankChomp, is no longer a problem match-up, especially that disgusting ToxicProtect set. But as I said, flexibility also means you don't have to play as tightly against offense, including stuff that blanks STAB like Volcanion. You can even keep Jet if you want to cleanly eliminate Blacephalon.
  3. Freer pivoting. :Tapu Lele: :Kartana: :Heatran: Thanks!
    1. Not worrying about passive chip means you can make better use of that Rocks resist and solid physical bulk, so U-turn doesn't wear you down as much. Also don't have to worry about Zapdos coming in on your Turn. And given how much Urshifu's playstyle likes benefitting offensive teammates with its pivoting (as said in its SmogDex), that is huge boon for your team in certain situations.
When I say Pads is the better item, I'm not saying Band is bad; it is still Band Urshifu. But I am saying that there a bunch of significant situations and match-ups where Pads are the superior item, and honestly I think it's the better item for non-bulky offense builds. Given how good ladder can be at predicting Da Fu, if you do run Band I feel you need to pair with a serious defensive backbone that can alleviate Band's positioning problem, preferably stuff that can reliably eat hits from the likes of Dragapult and Zapdos. Pads may miss out on a few KOs and not hit certain defensive staples as hard, but the offense teams it inhabits can easily be made to cover for that; also non-Choice options like Taunt and BU can still mess up common defensive staples. Band isn't bad, just not as consistent in my experience. At the very least Pads deserves to be more than just "Other Options" on the SmogDex (yes I know it's out of date).
 
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Tentacruel's main problem is that it doesn't have the longevity to be a consistent defensive staple; you want recovery, you're restricted to your item slot or Giga Drain (which is nice on paper, but that 80 SpA leaves its damage lacking and consequently its recovery rather underwhelming). ITentacruel really isn't that bulky, either, unless you spec heavily in phys Def. And even then:
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 254-302 (69.7 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Useless if Garchomp is offensive it can OHKO:
252+ Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 614-726 (168.6 - 199.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Tentacruel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 248-292 (69.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tentacruel Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 248-292 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tentacruel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 324-384 (90.7 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tentacruel Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 488-576 (116.1 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Also Tentacruel gets double recovery at the end of a turn with Rain Dish + Black Sludge. And triple with Aqua Ring
 
Okay I shouldn't have to explain this in detail but when I mentioned finding a niche for Tentacruel in OU I wasn't suggesting that this niche is 1v1 a Garchomp.
Maybe by using it as a toxic spiker with rapid spin in rain. It can regenerate a good amount of health this way, whilst still being able to dish out some damage with rain boosted scalds and serving utility purposes with knock off. It would still be forced out easily but I guess it could do some stuff

Perhaps you could go full whacky and replace knock with venom drench, could do some stuff maybe
 

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Uh IDT Tentacruel really offers a whole lot. It's not bad, but I feel like it's very heavily overshadowed and outclassed in the roles that it would like to fill with its defensive profile, and the utility it does offer just feels less like a niche with real metagame value and more like looking for something unique that Tentacruel happens to be able to do as an excuse to use it. It does have a high Speed stat to help differentiate it from Toxapex, so making use of that is probably worth your while, as any full-on defence role will just be completely outdone between Regenerator, Recover, and Toxapex's better defensive stat spread.

IDT Rain Dish is particularly good without access to permanent rain, as rain turns are at a premium and as such focusing on defence is just not very optimal when compared to cracking shit open with Zapdos, Thundurus, Tornadus, Barraskewda, Urshifu-R etc., especially when combined with its defensive redundance alongside Pelipper (and technically also Politoed if you decide to run that for whatever reason) combined with exacerbating an Electric weakness without offering much offensively (cringe), so you're probably better off going with something like Liquid Ooze to act as a better disruptor vs Ferrothorn, which despite kinda not synergising that well with Rapid Spin removing seeds is especially handy for disrupting its whole hazard game, and gives you a playable matchup versus Venusaur, Tapu Bulu etc. if they're running draining moves. Venom Drench seems to be far too niche of a utility option and also doesn't particularly synergise with Tentacruel's role on a team IMO, and Acid Spray, while it's a less niche alternative, faces the same sorts of synergy issues. Knock Off just seems like a strictly better disruption tool.

Its notable utility options off of the top of my head consist of Knock Off/Corrosive Gas, Haze, Rapid Spin, Scald, and Toxic Spikes. Realistically, I think Spin, Knock, and Scald synergise best with Tentacruel's high speed and defensive profile, and you have a passable (though certainly not good) offensive presence despite only having 70/80 offences with no way to boost between Scald's burn rate, Sludge Bomb's poison rate, and Knock Off's disruptive potential. Scald's burn rate, Knock Off, and Liquid Ooze mean that you're not dead weight or free healing vs Ferrothorn, which would otherwise be the biggest issue with a 'mon like Tentacruel. I feel like it'd be kinda over-stretched as a T-spiker, and at that point, it honestly begs the question of why you're not just using Toxapex on balance (setting up repeatedly is much more realistic and it's just a better Pokemon in almost every way) or lead Cloyster on offense (has access to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, Shell Smash, Skill Link moves, and Explosion, which is entirely just a better kit than Tentacruel for the role), and while you could swap out Knock Off for Corrosive Gas, the option can be shut down by Taunt Heatran, which I don't think it's particularly worth it despite letting you avoid Barbs chip vs Ferrothorn—and I don't even know if it works versus Steel-types in the first place regardless. Not that Heatran is a brilliant matchup anyway, as unlike Toxapex and the Slowtwins, you have no recovery outside of Leftovers and as such don't have the luxury of being able to run Shed Shell to patch up a team's rough Heatran matchup.

This mon feels like a victim of intense power creep if I'm being honest. Too many Pokemon have good recovery and better defensive presence, and while fast utility can be nice I feel like it doesn't synergise that well with the design of the Pokemon in the context of a metagame like OU. The game being balanced around the 2–3HKO barrier rather than the 3–4HKO barrier (the latter with significantly reduced distribution of strong recovery options like Recover clones and Regenerator would be a much better game imo; honestly cut Regen as a whole as it's just bad game design) just means that being a viable defensive pick virtually mandates recovery unless your defensive profile and utility set makes sense to not have any, and I don't think Tentacruel's really does. It already wasn't great for anything other than Spin access prior to gen 5 temporarily fixing its longevity issues, and IDT it really gained anything between then and now, and by contrast it's lost a lot between the introduction of Defog and 'mons like Toxapex.
 

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