Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

However, Sand Force Boosts Excadrill's STAB Moves and Rock type moves in Sandstorm, but it doesn't boost its speed.
This would certainly be a valid point if it was Gen 5 where sand rush is banned. However I'm not sure that sand force drill has any relevant niche in gen 8 that's worth the massive opportunity cost of giving up an ability as powerful as Sand rush.

Especially since it also has to compete with mold breaker which at least has the useful application of overcoming rotom wash.
 
Does Tentacruel have anything even vaguely close to a niche in this meta? Scald / Sludge Bomb / Knock Off / Rapid Spin with Assault Vest is weirdly hard to switch in on, trading with a surprising number of OU Pokémon. It can even run Mirror Coat, Ice Beam, or Toxic Spikes.

Of course the elephant in the room is Toxapex who does pretty much everything defensively that Tentacruel can. However Tentacruel is less passive, faster, and can put offense in an uncomfortable spot late game with Tenta’s coverage and +1 speed. Another downside is that 80 base sp attack can’t easily OHKO things even when invested and 4x super effective.

Or are Tentacruel’s gen 5 glory days long behind it?
 
Last edited:
You also have to justify using it over Fini, which has a lot of Tentacruel's strongish points, such as hazard control, usable speed, and the ability to pivot/check against Urshifu while being a little less passive than pex. Fini can do all that and more, and its typing is pretty much a straight upgrade to Tcruel's.
 
Does Tentacruel have anything even vaguely close to a niche in this meta? Scald / Sludge Bomb / Knock Off / Rapid Spin with Assault Vest is weirdly hard to switch in on, trading with a surprising number of OU Pokémon. It can even run Mirror Coat, Ice Beam, or Toxic Spikes.

Of course the elephant in the room is Toxapex who does pretty much everything defensively that Tentacruel can. However Tentacruel is less passive, faster, and can put offense in an uncomfortable spot late game with Tenta’s coverage and +1 speed. Another downside is that 80 base sp attack can’t easily OHKO things even when 4x invested and super effective.

Or are Tentacruel’s gen 5 glory days long behind it?
Tentacruel's main problem is that it doesn't have the longevity to be a consistent defensive staple; you want recovery, you're restricted to your item slot or Giga Drain (which is nice on paper, but that 80 SpA leaves its damage lacking and consequently its recovery rather underwhelming). ITentacruel really isn't that bulky, either, unless you spec heavily in phys Def. And even then:
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 254-302 (69.7 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

If you were to use Tenta, it'd probably be best on fast paced offensive teams, as its movepool does grant it a nice utility option and the few turns you did get with it would be just enough to make things happen, plus it can pressure annoying mons like Fini and Clefable. That said, you're probably better off just using Black Sludge as item so you at least have some longevity.
~~~​
Been a while since I posted here, so I felt that I should at least post something new. So, hot take of my own:
:ss/Urshifu-Rapid-Strike:
I think Protective Pads might be the superior item on Urshifu over Band. Now, I know what you're all thinking: Surging Strikes + rocky Helmet/Garchomp/Ferrothorn on right prediction. And yes, chip damage is a huge problem for Da Fu, negating its Rocks resistance and naturally solid physical bulk (enough to survive Arctozolt Bolt Beak if you Jet), especially with common staples like Fini, Zapdos and Dragonite forcing it to constantly U-turn. But in my experience, that actually wasn't the main issue I found using Urshifu in practice.

To put it simply, I feel Band Urshifu has become the new Specs Dragapult. Yes, both are undeniably powerful and have U-turn to pressure the opponent even if they don't commit to an attack, which in turn forces careful prediction on the opponent's part; and that's the problem. I've found that, even on mid-ladder, players are so scared of Urshifu that they've become accustomed to predicting it, and when Urshifu is locked in that's not ideal, especially since, unlike Dragapult, Urshifu's speed tier is solid but not great, meaning one round of chip off of U-turn hurts it a lot more than Pult since being able to take hits is more important. And when they guess right, being locked in with Shifu can easily put you in a tough spot.

While a risk for every Choice user, Urshifu has this positioning problem on the worse side since it heavily prefers being on offense (pretty much every partner in its description is an offense staple), meaning its teammates are not necessarily the best at covering a positioning error defensively. Additionally, Shifu is a Pokemon of solid pros but glaring cons; it has :
  • Breaking power
  • Coverage
  • Pivoting
  • Solid physical bulk
But
  • A vulnerability to contact triggers :Zapdos::Garchomp:
  • Bad SpD :Dragapult:
  • A Speed tier that leaves it vulnerable to opposing offense threats including stuff it should check on paper like Blacephalon. You do not want to give Blacephalon free turns. :Blacephalon:
Choice-locking can also just be a hinderance in late-game scenarios, as seen here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1638831298
:ss/Landorus-Therian:
"Ha ha. I have the advantage- somehow."

If I didn't get that crit, I would have lost, which would not have been an issue if I could change up moves and safely use Surging Strikes. "But wouldn't Pads not have Jet"? Well, for my last few games with this team I switched Band to Pads out of curiosity, same moveset, and it didn't really affect anything. Meaning it didn't really hurt me in practice. And I got that curiosity because every other Shifu I faced during that run was Pads- and they messed me up on a consistent basis. Partly because I wasn't expecting it to be so common, but also because it turns out non-locked Shifu is really scary for an offense team to deal with. Running Pads has some crucial pros:
  1. Flexibility. :Toxapex: :Clefable:
    1. Obviously you have not just more in-game flexibility, but also more room to experiment in your moveset. You can Taunt defensive Pokemon you struggle with and/or use Bulk Up to clean up and decimate slower teams.
  2. Key match-ups. :Zapdos: :Garchomp: :Volcanion:
    1. Garchomp, especially TankChomp, is no longer a problem match-up, especially that disgusting ToxicProtect set. But as I said, flexibility also means you don't have to play as tightly against offense, including stuff that blanks STAB like Volcanion. You can even keep Jet if you want to cleanly eliminate Blacephalon.
  3. Freer pivoting. :Tapu Lele: :Kartana: :Heatran: Thanks!
    1. Not worrying about passive chip means you can make better use of that Rocks resist and solid physical bulk, so U-turn doesn't wear you down as much. Also don't have to worry about Zapdos coming in on your Turn. And given how much Urshifu's playstyle likes benefitting offensive teammates with its pivoting (as said in its SmogDex), that is huge boon for your team in certain situations.
When I say Pads is the better item, I'm not saying Band is bad; it is still Band Urshifu. But I am saying that there a bunch of significant situations and match-ups where Pads are the superior item, and honestly I think it's the better item for non-bulky offense builds. Given how good ladder can be at predicting Da Fu, if you do run Band I feel you need to pair with a serious defensive backbone that can alleviate Band's positioning problem, preferably stuff that can reliably eat hits from the likes of Dragapult and Zapdos. Pads may miss out on a few KOs and not hit certain defensive staples as hard, but the offense teams it inhabits can easily be made to cover for that; also non-Choice options like Taunt and BU can still mess up common defensive staples. Band isn't bad, just not as consistent in my experience. At the very least Pads deserves to be more than just "Other Options" on the SmogDex (yes I know it's out of date).
 
Last edited:
Tentacruel's main problem is that it doesn't have the longevity to be a consistent defensive staple; you want recovery, you're restricted to your item slot or Giga Drain (which is nice on paper, but that 80 SpA leaves its damage lacking and consequently its recovery rather underwhelming). ITentacruel really isn't that bulky, either, unless you spec heavily in phys Def. And even then:
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 254-302 (69.7 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Useless if Garchomp is offensive it can OHKO:
252+ Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 614-726 (168.6 - 199.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Tentacruel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 248-292 (69.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tentacruel Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 248-292 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tentacruel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 324-384 (90.7 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tentacruel Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 488-576 (116.1 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Also Tentacruel gets double recovery at the end of a turn with Rain Dish + Black Sludge. And triple with Aqua Ring
 
Okay I shouldn't have to explain this in detail but when I mentioned finding a niche for Tentacruel in OU I wasn't suggesting that this niche is 1v1 a Garchomp.
Maybe by using it as a toxic spiker with rapid spin in rain. It can regenerate a good amount of health this way, whilst still being able to dish out some damage with rain boosted scalds and serving utility purposes with knock off. It would still be forced out easily but I guess it could do some stuff

Perhaps you could go full whacky and replace knock with venom drench, could do some stuff maybe
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Uh IDT Tentacruel really offers a whole lot. It's not bad, but I feel like it's very heavily overshadowed and outclassed in the roles that it would like to fill with its defensive profile, and the utility it does offer just feels less like a niche with real metagame value and more like looking for something unique that Tentacruel happens to be able to do as an excuse to use it. It does have a high Speed stat to help differentiate it from Toxapex, so making use of that is probably worth your while, as any full-on defence role will just be completely outdone between Regenerator, Recover, and Toxapex's better defensive stat spread.

IDT Rain Dish is particularly good without access to permanent rain, as rain turns are at a premium and as such focusing on defence is just not very optimal when compared to cracking shit open with Zapdos, Thundurus, Tornadus, Barraskewda, Urshifu-R etc., especially when combined with its defensive redundance alongside Pelipper (and technically also Politoed if you decide to run that for whatever reason) combined with exacerbating an Electric weakness without offering much offensively (cringe), so you're probably better off going with something like Liquid Ooze to act as a better disruptor vs Ferrothorn, which despite kinda not synergising that well with Rapid Spin removing seeds is especially handy for disrupting its whole hazard game, and gives you a playable matchup versus Venusaur, Tapu Bulu etc. if they're running draining moves. Venom Drench seems to be far too niche of a utility option and also doesn't particularly synergise with Tentacruel's role on a team IMO, and Acid Spray, while it's a less niche alternative, faces the same sorts of synergy issues. Knock Off just seems like a strictly better disruption tool.

Its notable utility options off of the top of my head consist of Knock Off/Corrosive Gas, Haze, Rapid Spin, Scald, and Toxic Spikes. Realistically, I think Spin, Knock, and Scald synergise best with Tentacruel's high speed and defensive profile, and you have a passable (though certainly not good) offensive presence despite only having 70/80 offences with no way to boost between Scald's burn rate, Sludge Bomb's poison rate, and Knock Off's disruptive potential. Scald's burn rate, Knock Off, and Liquid Ooze mean that you're not dead weight or free healing vs Ferrothorn, which would otherwise be the biggest issue with a 'mon like Tentacruel. I feel like it'd be kinda over-stretched as a T-spiker, and at that point, it honestly begs the question of why you're not just using Toxapex on balance (setting up repeatedly is much more realistic and it's just a better Pokemon in almost every way) or lead Cloyster on offense (has access to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, Shell Smash, Skill Link moves, and Explosion, which is entirely just a better kit than Tentacruel for the role), and while you could swap out Knock Off for Corrosive Gas, the option can be shut down by Taunt Heatran, which I don't think it's particularly worth it despite letting you avoid Barbs chip vs Ferrothorn—and I don't even know if it works versus Steel-types in the first place regardless. Not that Heatran is a brilliant matchup anyway, as unlike Toxapex and the Slowtwins, you have no recovery outside of Leftovers and as such don't have the luxury of being able to run Shed Shell to patch up a team's rough Heatran matchup.

This mon feels like a victim of intense power creep if I'm being honest. Too many Pokemon have good recovery and better defensive presence, and while fast utility can be nice I feel like it doesn't synergise that well with the design of the Pokemon in the context of a metagame like OU. The game being balanced around the 2–3HKO barrier rather than the 3–4HKO barrier (the latter with significantly reduced distribution of strong recovery options like Recover clones and Regenerator would be a much better game imo; honestly cut Regen as a whole as it's just bad game design) just means that being a viable defensive pick virtually mandates recovery unless your defensive profile and utility set makes sense to not have any, and I don't think Tentacruel's really does. It already wasn't great for anything other than Spin access prior to gen 5 temporarily fixing its longevity issues, and IDT it really gained anything between then and now, and by contrast it's lost a lot between the introduction of Defog and 'mons like Toxapex.
 
Now that I'm back, I felt it about time to drop something new. Presenting:
Gimmicky (But Good): Porygon2

:Porygon2:
Porygon2 is not exactly a stranger to SwSh OU, with its reliable niche as one of the key setters on Trick Room teams. But as Trick Room is an inherently unreliable strategy, being tied to that is not a consistent recipe for success; but perhaps this digital duck could function in a role independent of this style. I've been experimenting with potential uses for Porygon2 for a while, and I think I finally found something that gives it a TR-independent niche:
:ss/Porygon2:
Porygon2@ Eviolite
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpA or 252 HP/252 SpA/4 SpD; Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Teleport/Tri Attack
-Recover

Analytic is a terrifying ability but is not exactly the most abusable with which Pokemon have access to it. That is, except for Porygon2, which has naturally higher SpA than Starmie, the bulk to take hits thanks to Eviolite even with just max HP, and just the right options to hit a lot of Pokemon really hard. This gave me the idea of a more offensive Porygon2, providing a boost to Pory2's attacks without the inconsistency of Download (plus not being vulnerable to stuff like Haze and Unaware). Few Pokemon in OU can comfortably take both halves of the BoltBeam combo, and thanks to Recover Pory2 can consistently be a pain throughout a match, shoring up bulk that allows it to take even +1 Dragon Darts from Dragapult. As for that fourth move, Tri Attack gives Pory2 a STAB option that lets it hit neutral targets harder, notably more threatening offensive options like Buzzwole and Arctozolt, while Teleport allows Pory2 to contribute to the momentum war more directly, especially given the limited pool of switch-ins that it naturally baits; of the two I'd honestly say I prefer Teleport. In terms of other options, Foul Play lets Pory2 smack Melmetal and Glowking harder, but in practice the move ended up being dead weight despite my best attempts. If you want to lean into its support capabilities, you could run status with Toxic or Thunder Wave, the former providing extra chip while TWave hits more of Pory's switch-ins.
Now, some highlights:
Tri Attack
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1638275745
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1638831298
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1638842221
Teleport
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1663444714
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1663593379-gr8l15h8bvoz4c5fzjf8wbgnwyfshr3pw

Using PoryLytic
:Blissey: :Ferrothorn: :Heatran: :Melmetal: :Slowking-Galar: :Tyranitar: :Magnezone:
For starters, let's take a look at the Pokemon Pory2 does struggle with. Among the standard OU threats, PoryLytic has 7 reliable switch-ins: Blissey, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Melmetal, Glowking, Tyranitar and Magnezone. Of these, Blissey and Ferrothorn are the only hard counters, as Heat and Melm can be worn down if Pory2 repeatedly predicts them with Thunderbolt, Glowking dislikes Foul Play and Ttar and Zone can get worn down quickly due to their lack of recovery; that said, Pory2 is probably not breaking any of these guys on its own. That's where the team comes in.
:ss/Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: :ss/Buzzwole:
You likely already noticed that most of Pory's counters happen to have a common shortcoming- most of them are very scared of Fighting types. As such, a physical Fighting type is basically mandatory on teams that use PoryLytic. Fortunately, Urshifu and Buzzwole are naturally good partners to Pory2, with Shifu providing its own pivoting and outspeeding all the counters bar ScarfTran while Buzzwole shores up the team's defensive profile and threatens to snowball with Beast Boost. For its part, Porylytic naturally threatens physical walls like Corviknight and can take on specific roadblocks, namely making life much more difficult for Slowbro and reliably trading with Volcanion to open up Surging Strikes.
:ss/Zeraora:
Zeraora has in my experience been a great partner for Pory2, providing speed control, doubling PoryLytic's Electric assault to more forcibly remove stuff like Toxapex, serving as a back-up answer for annoying Steel types, using Knock to weaken the opponent and remove AV from Melmetal or Glowking, and can either pivot or provide a win-con with Bulk Up. Zeraora also obviously appreciates the removal of Ground type roadblocks, especially Lando T and Garchomp.
:ss/Rotom-Wash: :ss/Zapdos: :ss/Magnezone:
While Zeraora synergizes rather well with PoryLytic, Electric types in general actually make for surprisingly effective partners, spamming Thunderbolts of their own or Volt Switching to increasing the team's momentum while appreciating PoryLytic's ability to decimate those pesky Ground types and weaken opposing Zeraora. Washtom gives your team a back-up Volcanion check (since you can't really slot Blissey or Chansey on a Pory2 team), and packs a useful kit including Hydro to mess up Heatran, TWave or Wisp to either create free turns or shore up PoryLytic's bulk, Pain Split to keep Blissey low or Defog so Pory doesn't get too weakened by hazards. Zapdos can form a scary special core with PoryLytic thanks to its raw power and potential Heat Wave to burn down Ferro, Melm and Zone, and can provide free paralysis while sponging Fighting attacks. Magnezone can also be used to forcibly remove Ferro and Melm and smash Ttar and Blissey with Body Press, though I haven't tested it and it does make your team weaker to Fighting.

:Landorus-Therian: :Rillaboom: :Garchomp: :Corviknight:
In general, PoryLytic is best suited for offense styles, as those teams are best suited to beating its counters and capitalize on the holes Pory's Analytic attacks can punch in teams, while providing a nice mid-ground for Pory2's bulk (useful but not the end of the world if you have to trade). PoryLytic fits really well on pivot spam teams, as it loves pivot support from the likes of Urshifu or Washtom and Analytic directly contributes to this style's goal of forcing as many switches from the opponent as possible; if Teleport, Porygon can even contribute to this constant pivoting directly. Pivot cores obviously benefit a lot from hazard control, so don't forget your setters and possible removal options!
My teams if you want a base:
TriPory (pokepast.es)
TelePory (pokepast.es)
Gimmick Rating: Solid with support.

Genuine Niche?
Gimmicky, but Good
Solid with Support :Porygon2:
Hit or Miss
Pure Gimmick


Stray Observations:
  • :Dragapult: Dragon Drance Pult seems to be on the rise, as all but one of the Pults I encountered were DD.
  • :Corviknight: Stall has been completely dead on the mid-ladder recently. I don't remember the last time I went this long without fighting a stall team, but literally every team I faced with the second team was some kind of offense. Offensive styles seem to be really dominant right now, so be prepared for them, especially Veil and Rain since I saw those archetypes a bunch, if you want to do a ladder run.
  • :Buzzwole: Leech Life Buzzwole is trash, I learned the hard way. Use Thunder Punch if you want an actual third attack.
 
Last edited:
I call this the Cosmic Stored Weakness Jirachi:
I have used Jirachi in OU sometimes, It can wear down most walls with Trick Choice Scarf.

Jirachi @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Stored Power
- Iron Head
- Ancient Power / Thunderbolt

Cosmic Power allows Jirachi to take a hit such as Landorus-Therian's Earthquake and activate Weakness Policy, Ancient Power has 20% chance to boost all stats (except for accuracy and evasiveness) thanks to Serene Grace (similarly how Togekiss uses this move), then it can take advantage of its boosts with Stored Power that can OHKO Toxapex with 140 BP or 100 BP in Psychic Terrain before it uses Haze (we know Jirachi is immune to Clear Smog). and there's Iron Head a move that almost every Jirachi has with its infamous 60% flinch chance blocked by Inner Focus.
Here some action of this:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1361876214
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1461145153

Heatran
Melmetal
Ferrothorn
Slowking
Slowking
Volcarona
Blaziken

Let look what does Jirachi struggle against. as I say, there's like 7 Switch-ins from OU Pokemon: Heatran, Ferrothorn, Slowking, Glowking, Melmetal, Volcarona and Blaziken. Blissey dislikes to be flinched repeatedly by Iron Head, Ttar will not like taking a +2 Iron Head, Zone can't take a +2 180 BP Stored Power in Psychic Terrain after a Steath Rock. Ferrothorn and Heatran can wall Jirachi well (useless it Jirachi has many boosts, they will be unable to take a Stored Power) but they will not love taking a Aura Sphere at their face.


Jirachi fire type counters can be scary when they're boosted. In other hand, Volcarona and Blaziken are scared of taking a Ancient Power and Stored Power Respectively. however, Blaziken can't outspeed Jirachi if Speed Boost hasn't activated but Jirachi has to be careful with the Choice Band variants, it needs at least +2 defense to be 2HKOed by Flare Blitz. Offensive Quiver Dance Volcarona has a Speed tie with Jirachi, this means a 50/50 problem. Also they're good Jirachi Partners since they Fend off Steel types that Jirachi has trouble with.


Dragonite is an good switch in against Ground Types that Treat Jirachi, also provides status recovery with Heal Bell. Earthquake allows it to beat Heatran, it can heal itself to full health with Roost to activate back Multiscale. it's typing can doubly resist Grass types which can wall Rillaboom well aside getting its Heavy-Duty Boots knocked off. Defog removes harmful hazards like Spikes and Stealth Rock, So it doesn't wear Jirachi down.


Galarian Zapdos can be also a Good pick for Jirachi teammates, With a Choice Scarf or Choice Band will be always an wallbreaker to Steel Types mostly Ferrothorn who is decimated by a Choice Band Close Combat. with Defiant it can use it to its favor against Landorus-Therian who will face its demise by a Single Brave Bird, U-turn gives a bit of momentium to its teammates.


Rillaboom is a good teammate, Grassy Terrain provides some recovery for Jirachi while also it can crush Water, Ground and Rock Type pokemon with its Grass STAB moves Boosted in Grassy Terrain, Knock Off can remove such as Assault Vest from Galarian Slowking or Choice Band from Landorus-Therian. Grassy Terrain also Halves the damage taken from Earthquake which benefits from Jirachi.


Tapu Lele can support Jirachi with Psychic Terrain, increasing the power of Stored Power and making it immune to Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch. It's Psychic STAB deals serious damage in Psychic Terrain with Choice Specs. Future Sight plays the odds to force Toxapex Switch out or face its consequences by staying in. Psyshock Surprises a Blissey attempting to wall it (it can OHKO if it deals a critical hit).


Clefable and Latias act to assist Jirachi by healing it with Wish and crippling its checks and counters with Thunder Wave or Toxic, Clefable can set up Stealth Rock to pressure the opponent's team or heal the status of its teammates with Heal Bell. Meanwhile, Latias can use Healing Wish to Fully heal Jirachi, use Trick + Choice Scarf to lock walls such as Toxapex and Blissey.
 
Last edited:
Stray Observations:
  • :Buzzwole: Leech Life Buzzwole is trash, I learned the hard way. Use Thunder Punch if you want an actual third attack.
I've always felt like Thunder Punch was kind of trash too, even if it hit Corviknight harder than Ice Punch, but with the amount of Lando and Garchomp that eventually have to heads-up against Buzzwole, Ice Punch just always gave me more mileage on most three attack+roost sets. Thunder Punch felt better with Koko, but at that point I had a Koko anyways.
 
I've always felt like Thunder Punch was kind of trash too, even if it hit Corviknight harder than Ice Punch, but with the amount of Lando and Garchomp that eventually have to heads-up against Buzzwole, Ice Punch just always gave me more mileage on most three attack+roost sets. Thunder Punch felt better with Koko, but at that point I had a Koko anyways.
I've always found Thunder Punch of some use on Buzzwole for teams with less favorable rain matchups. Its ability to force switches is very useful and when healthy it's difficult to remove, which grants breakers like Barraskewda less maneuverability and generally impedes offensive momentum. I've found Earthquake to be the superior coverage option by far over Leech Life in almost all other instances, however, Choice Band and Choice Scarf sets can circumvent this in some cases while adding additional power.
 
I've always felt like Thunder Punch was kind of trash too, even if it hit Corviknight harder than Ice Punch, but with the amount of Lando and Garchomp that eventually have to heads-up against Buzzwole, Ice Punch just always gave me more mileage on most three attack+roost sets. Thunder Punch felt better with Koko, but at that point I had a Koko anyways.
There's Counter Buzzwole
When Corv decides to Brave Bird Buzzwole, it will get OHKOed by Counter in return. However, this gives up a moveslot for this.
 
I've always felt like Thunder Punch was kind of trash too, even if it hit Corviknight harder than Ice Punch, but with the amount of Lando and Garchomp that eventually have to heads-up against Buzzwole, Ice Punch just always gave me more mileage on most three attack+roost sets. Thunder Punch felt better with Koko, but at that point I had a Koko anyways.
Yes. That’s why you run Ice and Thunder Punch. Fighting STAB and Ice Punch are the two standard attacks for Buzzwole. I was trying to say Leech Life doesn’t really do much for Buzzwole despite being STAB since you lose your ability to hit stuff like Corviknight and Toxapex (I lost one endgame vs Toxapex because I was Leech instead of Thunder Punch), though EQ is an option if you want to hit against Pex (also smacks Glowking harder). And as Smash said TPunch can help against Rain. Leech Life could work on Choiced but it’s trash on 3 Attacks + Roost, doesn’t really provide enough over other attacking options.
 
Yes. That’s why you run Ice and Thunder Punch. Fighting STAB and Ice Punch are the two standard attacks for Buzzwole. I was trying to say Leech Life doesn’t really do much for Buzzwole despite being STAB since you lose your ability to hit stuff like Corviknight and Toxapex (I lost one endgame vs Toxapex because I was Leech instead of Thunder Punch), though EQ is an option if you want to hit against Pex (also smacks Glowking harder). And as Smash said TPunch can help against Rain. Leech Life could work on Choiced but it’s trash on 3 Attacks + Roost, doesn’t really provide enough over other attacking options.
It's interesting you bring this up because tpunch is slotted here as the main 4th move of choice yet a lot of people seem to run leech life at least on the mid ladder ( 1500-1600s)

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/buzzwole-qc-2-3.3686978/
 
Earthquake is also valuable on Buzzwole because it provides it with a non-contact move. That way it can pick off weakened Ferros, Garchomps, Rocky Helmet stuff, etc. etc. without fear. It's annoying that Buzzwole only runs contact moves otherwise.
 
Earthquake is also valuable on Buzzwole because it provides it with a non-contact move. That way it can pick off weakened Ferros, Garchomps, Rocky Helmet stuff, etc. etc. without fear. It's annoying that Buzzwole only runs contact moves otherwise.
Or Buzzwole can just run Protective Pads to not subject to these contact abilites and Rocky Helmet problems. However, it gives up its Leftovers for that.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Top Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
RMT Leader
Earthquake is also valuable on Buzzwole because it provides it with a non-contact move. That way it can pick off weakened Ferros, Garchomps, Rocky Helmet stuff, etc. etc. without fear. It's annoying that Buzzwole only runs contact moves otherwise.
Great idea, I will say that Buzzwole can guarantee 2HKO Ferrothorn (Close Combat) with the standard Buzzwole (OU Offensive tank set), and if you give it some entry hazard damage it will OHKO. When it comes to Garchomp, it can be slightly annoying but if you play around with the attack EVs you can make sure its a guaranteed 2HKO (Close Combat) with especially with stealth rock. Plus neither of those Pokémon run recovery moves aside leech seed unlike Buzzwole usually running roost as standard.
 
Useless Statistical Analysis

With the new update to the Viability Rankings coming out, I thought to myself "are the more viable Pokemon actually used more"? So I took a break from my normal work on excel to do some Pokemon in excel.

I took Pokemon that were in either S, S-, A+, A, A-, or B+ rank and categorized them as such. I copied over the Aug 2022 usage stats weighed for 0, 1500, 1695, and 1825. Looked at the differences between 0 to 1695 and 0 to 1825 for each Pokemon, then looked at the average in each viability ranking.

Results

Viability TierAverage 1500 UsageAverage Usage Increase 0 ⮕ 1695Average Usage Increase 0 ⮕1825
S33.6%7.5%6.8%
S-15.6%4.5%6.0%
A+13.4%4.5%5.7%
A7.9%1.2%1.9%
A-7.4%0.5%-0.1%
B+4.2%0.5%-0.6%

Kinda neat how clear of a trend there is with Viability and both mid-ladder usage (1500) and increase in usage as skill level increases (assuming higher ladder = better players).

Some other notable things:

Biggest increases in usage from 0 ⮕1825:

1. :Clefable: +12.8%
2. :Tornadus-therian: +11.1%
3. :Weavile: +11.1%
4. :Toxapex: +8.8%
5. :Tapu-Lele: +8.0%

Biggest decreases in usage from 0 ⮕1825:

1. :Barraskewda: -4.7%
2. :Volcarona: -4.3%

How flawed is looking as usage stats this way? Very. Still was fun nonetheless, and I can probably confidently say something along the lines of "better players use more viable Pokemon". Shocking conclusion. Anyway, what do we think the deal is with these biggest winners/losers? Good players use Clefable?

Edit: Just realized August usage stats contained OLT, which maybe makes this analysis a little bit more relevant.
 
Last edited:
Semi-Weather for Dummies
I've found a really simple and effective formula for building weather-terrain teams. It's as easy as ordering a combo meal.

Step 1: Pick a weather-sweeper pair
Step 2: Pick a terrain pair
Step 3: Pick a breaker
Step 4: Slap a Garchomp on it

Run terrain extender, nature power, and weather ball where available. Don't be dumb and lose your answer to scarf shadow ball.

:choice-specs: Breaker Recommendations :choice-band:
Breakers should be getting "dual stab" from the terrain and/or weather. This is your freebie slot. You have to modify the terrain setter set and/or weather setter set to complement your breaker choice. All setters should be offensive; dont waste a slot on some bumpkin set like SpD pelipper.
Psychic :Tapu-lele::hawlucha:Electric :Tapu-koko::hawlucha:Grassy :Rillaboom::hawlucha:Misty :Tapu-Fini::hawlucha:
Sun :Torkoal::Venusaur::Blacephalon::Victini::Heatran::Heatran:
Rain :Pelipper::Barraskewda::regieleki::Raichu-Alola::tornadus-therian::volcanion:
Sand (:Tyranitar::Excadrill:) /
(:Hippowdon::Dracozolt:)
:Alakazam::Nihilego::Magnezone::kartana::volcanion:
Hail :Ninetales-Alola: (:Arctozolt: / :Sandslash-alola:):blacephalon::blaziken::Moltres-Galar::Volcarona:

:garchomp: Garchomp Set :garchomp:
Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Scale Shot
- Fire Fang / Aqua Tail / Stone Edge / Stealth Rock

Pyschic-Sun is by far my favorite. You smash steels and just blow stuff up.
How do you make a torkoal offensive?
 
How do you make a torkoal offensive?
Perhaps via Trick Room?

Torkoal @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power

Someone with Trick Room will definitely help Torkoal a lot such as Slowking-Galar or Mew, these are the one of OU pokemon to use Trick Room save for Slowbro, Victini, Alakazam and Gengar.

By the way, who calls that 85 Base Special Attack useless in Sun?
 
Perhaps via Trick Room?

Torkoal @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power

Someone with Trick Room will definitely help Torkoal a lot such as Slowking-Galar or Mew, these are the one of OU pokemon to use Trick Room save for Slowbro, Victini, Alakazam and Gengar.

By the way, who calls that 85 Base Special Attack useless in Sun?
Yeah it’s devestating in trick room but as just an offensive weather setter it’s kinda meh
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top