Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

[Amadeus9]

What was the penalty again?

Fighting and poison moves create max moves with lower base power than other types, in an attempt to balance that they boost offensive stats. Ironically they forgot to include flying type in that consideration...

Anyways can you guys take the hint on Finch's very reserved and gentle nudge to get off the dynamax topic for the time being? Any meaningful discussion to be had on the topic prior to any suspect has already happened. This thread is for discussing the present metagame.

 

[KamenOH]

Fighting and poison moves create max moves with lower base power than other types, in an attempt to balance that they boost offensive stats. Ironically they forgot to include flying type in that consideration...

Anyways can you guys take the hint on Finch's very reserved and gentle nudge to get off the dynamax topic for the time being? Any meaningful discussion to be had on the topic prior to any suspect has already happened. This thread is for discussing the present metagame.

Yeah, dynamaxing is part of the current metagame.

And yeah, it does seem weird that the speed boosting move is stronker than the other boosting moves. But I don't have a problem with that. The faster the meta the better, imo.

 

[B1001]

Can't believe there are actual arguments towards keeping Dynamax in the game. People thought Z-moves were OP, but imagine being able to use 3 of them in a row...while boosting your stats or setting up beneficial terrain...doubling your hp...getting to keep your item...removing your choice lock...and activating on any pokemon at any point in the match.

FFS, Gyarados is surviving 4x effective Thunderbolts even after switching into Stealth Rocks (or Max Lightnings at full health) while killing you and boosting his stats at the same time. Ridiculous. Anyone who actually thinks this is fine needs to get their head checked.

 

[Srn]

If you lose to a Dynamaxed pokemon anytime before early-mid game, you improperly built your team. A mixture of priority, Prankster status, Prankster Sub/Protect stall, Focus Sash, Sturdy, Trick Room, Endeavor, etc are things needed in this meta to ensure you don't get swept.

Oh boy

Many of these options are incredibly specific and often suboptimal, most of these will barely help. But lets break this down.
A mixture of priority isn't necessarily helpful when dynamax doubles your HP and max moves like ground and steel give sp.def and def boosts respectively, especially in the case of excadrill here. There's also max psychic which sets psychic terrain, completely protecting you from priority.

But even if prio helped a lot or anything (it doesnt), lets take a serious look at what viable priority users even exist in the metagame right now

Hide

Scizor, Ash Greninja, Azumarill, Mega Lopunny, Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile, Mega Pinsir, Dragonite, and Breloom are gone. (Incidentally, fake out doesn't even flinch dynamax mons anyway)

Bisharp and Weavile remained, but both lost knock off, which is a serious blow to their viability. Aegislash has Shadow Sneak, Barraskewda and Crawdaunt have Aqua Jet, Conk has Mach Punch, Diggersby has Quick Attack, and most notably, a few weirdos like durant, sirfetchd, and golisopod use first impression. Durant especially is underrated with hustle making first impression really strong, LO can ohko darm-g from full.

That's it, I might've missed a few minor ones, but as far as viable priority goes, that's really as many options as you have to work with. And ofc its usually not enough for just one or two of these weak prio moves to take down a mon during dynamax, so are you telling us that we need to pack multiple of these on every team? That's incredibly restrictive and very indicative of how broken dynamax is.

Prankster sub/protect stall is a really misguided defense because it really misses a crucially broken aspect of dynamax, and thats how multiple max moves just let you snowball buffs. Protect, for one, doesn't even stop you from dying, you still take 25% of the damage and they still get the buff. Breaking subs is no different. So you can sub 3 turns if you want, but if that hawlucha just got +2 attack and +1 speed in the process, you're still incredibly fucked, even if you successfully stalled out dynamax.

Prankster status certainly helps, but how many viable pokemon can do that? Its..just grimmsnarl. So you'd ask us to not only run grimmsnarl on every team, but run t-wave on every grimmsnarl too? Again, restrictive as hell, and doesn't even necessarily help if speed boosts are stacking up with multiple max airstreams.

Focus Sash and Sturdy mean nothing if you can't do 200% in one turn, and even if you can, its likely very specific to a few dynamax abusers, when in reality, any mon can dynamax at any time, making sash & sturdy very specific and often ineffective answers to dynamax. I know some people mentioned mons like sturdy counter sawk with heavy duty boots, and yeah thats cool and will probably save your ass, but its pretty stupid that you need to rely on something so specific to not get destroyed. Its just another case in which teambuilding is made restrictive.

Knowing this, why are we building teams of 5 offensive Pokemon that will get swept if the opponent sets up their Dynamax first?

After understanding what the counters are, skill expression comes into play by virtue that any Pokemon can use it. Actually, timing is skill expression! If Dynamax was an auto win button early game, I'd agree it's problematic but high level matches are revealing that opponents are punished for inappropriate use.

The mindset of HO is to sweep before you are swept, this is nothing new. But even then, pokemon like ditto can just punish dynamax snowballing buffs and reverse sweep, which kind of favors the player who can conserve their dynamax.
You're certainly not wrong when you say that people are punished when they time their dynamax poorly, and that it does somewhat represent skill. But the problem is that its way too important. Ultimately, the game has thrown long-term planning out of the picture and become all about turn-by-turn guesses of predicting around one dumb mechanic, where one wrong guess can basically end games. That's simply not representative of a high quality competitive game.

This isn't early X/Y where we're forced to use Naganadel just to compete.

wrong gen

Dynamax is balanced by the fact that both parties can use it.

Mega Rayquaza is also balanced by the fact that both parties can use it :] free my man, he was robbed all along

Everyone agrees that Gyarados and Hawlucha are top abusers but then people spout a much longer list of potential abusers if the aforementioned ended up banned. Isn't that a sign that Dynamax is a mechanic that's more creative than we thought? If we can come up with a list of strong users that rivals the amount of Mega Pokemon in SM OU, that confirms that the metagame has room to grow. (Especially after applying surgical bans)

Why is this a good thing? If a mechanic thats already super overbearing is way more versatile than we thought, it just cements its place as a mechanic that needs to be banned; it does not suddenly become healthy. This isn't comparable to mega pokemon because they were predictable and far easier to manage. Surgical bans mean nothing if they were originally done to stop "top abusers" and only result in more "top abusers" popping up anyway.

The key problem is dynamax as a whole and it needs to goooo

 

[TiyaTiya]

Can't believe there are actual arguments towards keeping Dynamax in the game. People thought Z-moves were OP, but imagine being able to use 3 of them in a row...while boosting your stats or setting up beneficial terrain...doubling your hp...getting to keep your item...removing your choice lock...and activating on any pokemon at any point in the match.

FFS, Gyarados is surviving 4x effective Thunderbolts even after switching into Stealth Rocks (or Max Lightnings at full health) while killing you and boosting his stats at the same time. Ridiculous. Anyone who actually thinks this is fine needs to get their head checked.

its just bad players who are worried that they'll stop winning once their broken toy goes away. Random dynamax on a strong poke can get you to 1200. Building a team around that poke can get you to 1400. These are people who WILL drop down to 1100 or below once dynamax is banned.

Also, the only thing they can do is ban dynamax and gigantamax since apparently placing limits on it is too hard.

The mechanic is so broken that it cannot be kept in check like megas was by banning certain items like Kanga and Gengar's mega item.

 

[TiyaTiya]

Based on general consensus, Dynamax will end up banned. It's unfortunate because the game released a little over a week ago, yet there's such a strong calling for this mechanic to be removed. As of now, Dynamax hasn't been given a fair shake but it's obvious that policy makers will take their time before making a decision.

We have to make an honest effort to embrace this mechanic before trashing it. The reason why people are bringing up ditto usage as a sign of an unhealthy metagame is because a majority of people only use hyper offense. If you lose to a Dynamaxed pokemon anytime before early-mid game, you improperly built your team. A mixture of priority, Prankster status, Prankster Sub/Protect stall, Focus Sash, Sturdy, Trick Room, Endeavor, etc are things needed in this meta to ensure you don't get swept. Knowing this, why are we building teams of 5 offensive Pokemon that will get swept if the opponent sets up their Dynamax first? Utility and anti-sweeping sets are more important than ever.

There lies the artistry of the mechanic! This isn't early X/Y where we're forced to use Naganadel just to compete. Dynamax is balanced by the fact that both parties can use it. After understanding what the counters are, skill expression comes into play by virtue that any Pokemon can use it. Actually, timing is skill expression! If Dynamax was an auto win button early game, I'd agree it's problematic but high level matches are revealing that opponents are punished for inappropriate use.

Let the metagame develop with Dynamax first. Everyone agrees that Gyarados and Hawlucha are top abusers but then people spout a much longer list of potential abusers if the aforementioned ended up banned. Isn't that a sign that Dynamax is a mechanic that's more creative than we thought? If we can come up with a list of strong users that rivals the amount of Mega Pokemon in SM OU, that confirms that the metagame has room to grow. (Especially after applying surgical bans)

Approach the game with a new mindset when building your team. Strategize new sets to counter the inevitable while facilitating your own Dynamax. Stall may have taken a backseat this generation but there's a lot of untapped potential especially if we support the metagame.

The only people embracing dynamax are the ppl who can't win without it.

You pressed a button and got stats and wiped 2-3 pokemon in the course of 3 turns while forcing them to run protect or use ditto.

Also the fact that you think naga released in XY already proves your lack of knowledge, and you can't even use that argument because both parties can use naganadel too (just like they can dynamax)

If top abusers like gyara and lucha get banned, and potential abusers are brought up next, then its the mechanic they are using that is broken. You just find a poke that benefits the most + has good stats and you win.

you also suggest that dynamax can be stopped by running these trickster stally protect teams which means that it forces offensive teams out of the meta

there is nothing creative or fun about dynamax and once it is gone, bad players will drop to 1100 or below.

 

[Dark Nikuman]

Hawlucha is the Dynamax crew's best answer to Ditto. Ditto is a disgusting revenge sweeper because of the ability to copy stat boosts and outspeed with choice scarf: unburden takes that power away by allowing Hawlucha to outspeed scarfed Ditto because Ditto doesn't copy unburden's boost. Combine that with great speed, godly offensive typing, and access to the two best Max-moves as STAB and you have the only Dynamax sweeper that can sweep through a scarfed Ditto (and you hit for super effective damage on your counterpart with your maxed lightning punch.)

I just ruined both my accounts trying to push with hawlucha... that thing really sucks, props to whoever is using it efficiently.
You just have to be super lucky to have a version that sweeps a team or it's just dead weight that can't even switch into anything...

So my stance remains on the fact that hawlucha sucks in THIS meta.

 

[PokePoindexter]

I would be more willing to consider Dynamax broken if at least one of the following applied to it:

• Lasted more than 3 turns
• Modified other base stats besides HP upon Dynamaxing
• Wasn't available to literally any Pokemon at any time during a match

Keep in mind, you also have access to things like Toxapex, Galarian Corsola, Aegislash, Ferrothorn, Eiscue, Mimikyu, Unaware users, Focus Sash, Trick Room, and your own ability to Dynamax, all of which can be helpful when facing various opposing Dynamaxed Pokemon (hell, you could even use this). It's also worth noting that Dynamaxing is arguably much less brainless than some other mechanics we've seen; you only get three turns to do anything with it, and if your Pokemon gets KOed or switched out, or if your opponent is able to survive all three turns, then you've basically wasted it.

I touched on this in a post I made about a week ago, but I might as well reiterate that I still think it's too early to ban Dynamaxing; I had been lurking on Smogon for about 7 years before I finally decided to join back in 2016, and I remember seeing post after post complaining about Weather (and Dream World Abilities in general) in Gen 5, Megas in Gen 6, and Z-Moves in Gen 7 when those respective generations were new. But once people learned how to play the game with these new mechanics, we didn't see as many people screaming for them to be banned. Give the metagame time to adapt to Dynamaxing, and you might find that it's not so bad after all (or that there are a few bad apples you can weed out while still keeping the mechanic itself).

Also, spare me the bullshit excuse that "only bad players use it" (looking at a certain previous poster here). A pro adapts to the new game and utilizes the resources they have available to them in order to win; faux-pros and scrubs are the ones who blame exterior elements besides themselves for their own inability/refusal to adapt.

 

[Finchinator]

I would be more willing to consider Dynamax broken if at least one of the following applied to it:

• Lasted more than 3 turns
• Modified other base stats besides HP upon Dynamaxing
• Wasn't available to literally any Pokemon at any time during a match

• 3 turns is more than enough to change the entire game-state despite being pretty brief. This should not be used as a strong point against it, especially given the lasting impacts (stat boosts, terrain, weather, etc.) of some Dynamax moves.
• The fact that HP is doubled is already ridiculous. What more could you want?
• The unpredictability factor makes it much more troublesome as it makes the game, in part, a guessing/timing game as opposed to consistent strategy being applied. Others have touched on this at length, but I feel like this point works against you a lot more than you realize.

Keep in mind, you also have access to things like Toxapex, Galarian Corsola, Aegislash, Ferrothorn, Eiscue, Mimikyu, Unaware users, Focus Sash, Trick Room, and your own ability to Dynamax, all of which can be helpful when facing various opposing Dynamaxed Pokemon (hell, you could even use this). It's also worth noting that Dynamaxing is arguably much less brainless than some other mechanics we've seen; you only get three turns to do anything with it, and if your Pokemon gets KOed or switched out, or if your opponent is able to survive all three turns, then you've basically wasted it.

A lot of these things are broken through via Dynamax or extreme measures/uncommon (I mean you just mentioned Red Card in a serious post...). Nobody is really arguing it is brainless either by the way. We are arguing it is uncompetitive/broken. I think the target of your argument is either misguided or aimed at trying to counter arguments on the other side that simply do not exist. People have plenty of other valid pro-ban arguments you do not address and for good reason...because Dynamax is in fact banworthy.

I touched on this in a post I made about a week ago, but I might as well reiterate that I still think it's too early to ban Dynamaxing; I had been lurking on Smogon for about 7 years before I finally decided to join back in 2016, and I remember seeing post after post complaining about Weather (and Dream World Abilities in general) in Gen 5, Megas in Gen 6, and Z-Moves in Gen 7 when those respective generations were new. But once people learned how to play the game with these new mechanics, we didn't see as many people screaming for them to be banned. Give the metagame time to adapt to Dynamaxing, and you might find that it's not so bad after all (or that there are a few bad apples you can weed out while still keeping the mechanic itself).

These comparisons are not really fair as the core functionality of these things differ so fundamentally from Dynamaxing. I understand the call for hesitance and we are not about to quickban it with the blink of an eye, but a proper suspect is more than justified and a vote could lead to a ban in the near future if we elect to proceed that way.

Also, spare me the bullshit excuse that "only bad players use it" (looking at a certain previous poster here). A pro adapts to the new game and utilizes the resources they have available to them in order to win; faux-pros and scrubs are the ones who blame exterior elements besides themselves for their own inability/refusal to adapt.

These are the equivalent of 1100 ladder arguments re: "only bad players use it". Adaptation is indeed a valuable skill for experienced players, but there becomes a point when any degree of adaptation is not going to be enough to be consistent against certain uncompetitive/broken strategies.

 

[Gary]

The fact people are lumping Z-moves and Megas in the same category as Dynamaxing to try and prove some point that there's still time for the meta to adapt is honestly pretty funny to me. Like I guess I'm having a really hard time grasping how anyone who has any sort of competitive experience would look at something like Dynamaxing and consider it balanced in singles, and healthy for the long term. It's just not happening. The meta can adapt to anything that's thrown at it, but that doesn't mean that it will adapt in a way that makes the tier actually worth playing. Someone who brought up Naga earlier as an example, yea the meta did adapt. It was possible to win games without Naganadel and against Naganadel, but it was cancer. Team building was toxic. There was no room for creativity because you were too busy trying not to lose on team preview. The entire meta was centralizing around trying not to lose to one Pokemon that everything else basically went out the window. Was the meta playable? Yes. Was it balanced? Fuck no.

Now compare what I just said to a mechanic that virtually any Pokemon can abuse, is incredibly unpredictable and flexible, causes team building to be so centralized around specific threats that you can't properly cover anything else, prevents any sort of reliable long term game plan strats etc. The fact Ditto is arguably one of the best Pokemon in the tier rn says something. You need a Pokemon specifically to blanket check Dynamaxing. It's the definition of a band-aid.

But yea sure, lets give Dynamaxing another 3 weeks so we watch the meta adapt to something that is virtually impossible to reliably adapt to, because why not. Just get good. As long as the meta is playable, balance is pointless. Not like that's the entire point of Smogon or anything. Next gen we could have Z-DynaMegaing and we'd still have some dudes coming in here talking about meta adaptation. Adapt these nuts.

 

[HenshinHEro]

I agree entirely. Compared to Z-moves and Mega's, Dynamax is the biggest ( pardon the pun) and most complex mechanic we have had to date. The fact is, it's far too soon to ban a mechanic outright without extensive testing. Until recently, people thought Dracovish was trash. Rather than discard a mechanic as "broken" before the game has even been out for a full month, extensive testing with new moves and combinations should be done first.

By todays standards, setting up weather with an actual weather move like Sunny Day is bad, but it was strategic counterplay during gen 5 weather wars. I've played both showdown and switch wifi and i'm starting to see alot more moves like Dig and Phantom Force being used by faster pokemon for more turn stalling. I don't think it was a coincidence that game freak added 4 tms with those effects to the crappy movepool, as well as moves like Power, Guard, and Speed Swap.

The big argument against banning specific mons over Dynamax i keep seeing is "something else will just take their place". Maybe, but we haven't done it yet. Frankly, i'd rather not throw away a mechanic that makes alot of mons better, but not broken, then a few mons that can clearly abuse it. The majority of mons in gen 8 can not easily sweep with Dynamax in Gen 8.

While I agree more research is needed in order to decide whether Dyna/Gigantomax is balanced or not, I believe there is a very important question being overlooked:

Is it fun? Or would the play experience be better without it?

This is my main reason for banning Dynamax.

 

[Colonel M]

Fun is subjective when it comes to discussions like this. The real question is if Dynamax is competitive, to which many would answer "no", while some have some rather... strange ways of saying "yes". Not to say there aren't bad anti-Dynamax arguments and there are some okay pro-Dynamax arguments, but you have to understand the meta as a whole while understanding tiering philosophy when arguing for or against the mechanic in question.

Don't take what I say the wrong way. I just am saying that there is some fun to using Dynamax, but it's because the mechanic is so absurd it's laughable someone at Gamefreak okayed it. It has a "fun" element to it, but I would argue the mechanic to be very uncompetitive.

Also Red Card doesn't work while a Pokemon is Dynamaxed or Gigantamaxed... so...

EDIT: I'm going to be an ass for a minute here because this is a recurring argument for pro-Dynamax that absolutely grinds my gears:

"Dynamax is balanced by the fact that both parties can use it."

I'll put this into words anyone can understand:

"Both parties can use Zacian, what stops this slippery slope of an argument?"

The answer - it's stopped by not arguing it. Just because both parties can use something doesn't mean something can't be broken. Both parties can use Shadow Tag. Clearly that is balanced, isn't it? </sarcasm>

 

[kirigherkins]

That's incredibly restrictive and very indicative of how broken dynamax is.

I've noticed my teambuilding philosophy has reversed this gen. Previously I'd go into a build proactively, thinking about what strategy I want to pull off or Pokémon I wanted to build around, then slotting in key insurance against that team's most dangerous matchups. Now, more often than not, I'm teambuilding defensively, starting from the very get-go asking myself what I need to bring in order to avoid getting floored. Screens has always been my favourite strategy, but now I'm using them as a defensive crutch...

...which brings me to Draining Kiss / Calm Mind Hatterene. It's pretty horrifying if you play your cards right. I was inspired after being decked by the very same set a couple days ago and I'm pleased with it. Works just as well against defensive mons as you'd expect, but critically, if you have Reflect/Light screen up, you can take a massive hit and recover back up immediately.

If you can maneuver into a spot where you have screens up and can force a switch for a CM or have setup fodder (two CMs is ideal but one's enough), Draining Kiss gives her so much longevity against would-be killers.

Calcs assuming 252 HP/252 SpA Hatterene is +1/+1 under Reflect

Double Band Jolly G-Darm Icicle Crash: 35.8 - 42.4%
D. Kiss: 64.3 - 76% (53.3 - 62.9% recovered)
Banded Adamant Barraskewda Liquidation: 35.8 - 42.4% (not a typo, apparently the same %)
D. Kiss: 92.3 - 108.7% (57.3 - 62% recovered)
Banded Jolly Dracovish FishRend: 52.8 - 62.2%
D. Kiss: 105.2 - 123.9% (75.7 - 75.7% recovered)

Boosted Draining Kiss healing outpaces some of the most infamous physical nukes of our era, under these ideal conditions. It's honestly a shame Hatt doesn't get Alcremie's healing G-max, because having to D-max and lose your heals kinda sucks. I think +2 Excadrill Iron Head is one of the few things that'll still OHKO through Reflect, and obviously special attackers aren't as much of a concern.

Love this witch.

 

[PimpParasect]

The only reason I'm on the fence is because I'm not seeing anything in particular being out of line besides 5 pokemon names. All I hear are the same 5 abusers (gyarados, hawlucha, excadrill, ditto, and darma), and despite the argument of "the next abuser enters the fray", I'm not seeing any particular pokemon being mentioned as the next abuser or being broken enough to be uncounterable (lets say hydreigon is brought up as a replacement sweeper to gyarados, how broken exactly would it be? Are there no revenge killers?). Every new generation we're going to see some names pop up as concerns as we gut them out of the meta, and I think these 5 are no exceptions to that consideration especially with the new mechanics. If I'm supposed to be convinced of the mechanic being the problem and not the individuals in fear of more stuff becoming broken, I need more than just "it will happen trust" to fully understand what theorectically will happen. I'm open minded on the subject, don't get me wrong, I'm just still waiting for that convincing list of what will for sure happen in the future from both sides to compare which is better, and I feel thats what most of the pro-dyna posters are looking for too. I'd be leaning more pro-ban if I felt it wouldn't be a hasty decision without evaluating the future of pro/anti sides.

At the end of the day, this is why IMO we need either two ladders or a proper reqs based suspect test (as opposed to quick ban or council vote).

while understanding tiering philosophy when arguing for or against the mechanic in question.

From what I'm understanding, our philosophy is we shouldn't be afraid to remove mons fearing a "slippery slope". This was one of the biggest pro-aegislash arguments back in XY where we didn't want to ban aegislash due to potentially opening the floodgates of megas such as medicham, mawile, pinsir, alakazam, garde, and scizor, and that philosophy shutdown that theory as a proper reasoning for keeping it, among other things. What contradicts that philosophy is if we're afraid to "remove pokemon" in fear of "the next pokemon takes its place", to get rid of a mechanic that could be fine if the majority of users of it aren't the problem. Just like how all the listed megas turned out to be balanced in OU bar mawile with aegislash gone, without gyarados, hawlucha, darmanitan who probs will be suspect tested regardless, and ditto, what exactly are we concerned about "being the runner up OU destroyers" and will dynamax still be cancerous enough to ruin the meta without said threats.

I'm open for a suspect of dynamax, but the priorities on what gets suspect tested first can heavily impact what the future for gen 8 competitive holds. We could have a future where certain mons are gutted, like XY deoxys, aegislash, and mawile and there's still an even 50/50 chance of equal skilled players with reasonable compositions to win matches, or we could outright ban the mechanic and keep a stale meta where we're still picking off individual mons that don't fall to the power creep of dynamax (toxapex, aegislash, ferrothorn, still darman probably, dracovich, etc etc.). Hell I'm pro-ban on dynamax in national OU just because there is indeed a clown world of dynamax abusers in the national format, but galar-ou I'm still on the fence and mostly not seeing many justifications to quick ban/council vote beyond the occasional bullshittery.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

EDIT: I'm going to be an ass for a minute here because this is a recurring argument for pro-Dynamax that absolutely grinds my gears:

"Dynamax is balanced by the fact that both parties can use it."

I'll put this into words anyone can understand:

"Both parties can use Zacain, what stops this slippery slope of an argument?"

The answer - it's stopped by not arguing it. Just because both parties can use something doesn't mean something can't be broken. Both parties can use Shadow Tag. Clearly that is balanced, isn't it? </sarcasm>

a great example of this is that's used in game theory is the instant win button. Lets say both parties have it and can use it at any time. This is very balanced and fair as both parties have and have equal access to it. Now is this competitive and rewarding? I mean for literal 2 year olds probably but other than that and losers, no lol

 

[Soda]

There are so many little changes to Dmax that would've made it more manageable, namely to remove the secondary effects (or tone them down) or allow phazing. Sure every team would have Red Card/phazing on it, but there have been metas before that required a phazer.

At this point I still think an alternative tier with Dynamax allowed should exist, but isn't it inevitable that it will be banned? What are you gonna do go through an entire generation with people constantly screaming and crying? I think most of us understand that it's not a healthy mechanic, but it is incredibly annoying seeing people be so dismissive to people who just want to wait a little longer to make what is still a huge decision, even if there is a consensus. It's clearly going to be banned so just do it. Gyarados and Hawlucha will probably still be OU anyway

 

[TheGiantSlowbro]

I suppose to weigh in on the Dynamax issue I would have to say I would be in favour of a complex clause, like banning Dynamax from choice locked Pokemon, however this sadly won't happen and Dynamax would still have a bunch of issues
I also think it's worth looking at maybe keeping Gmax because overall Gmax seems pretty bad, but there's still the issue of being freed of choice items locking, which still might be too good on some of them. I do, however, think the pool of Gmax pokemon would be small enough to be able to reasonably ban any problematic ones that arise
Realistically none of this is going to happen though, which is kind of sad imo

I don't see a situation where we ban Dynamax on Gyarados, Hawlucha, Excadrill, Ditto, Dragapult, ANY WATER TYPE and don't still end up with issues down the line or have super restrictive team building

However, I want to talk about something different, and that something is Darmanitan because holy fuck is this thing a monster. This thing is already being debated on whether or not it's broken (hint: It is) and some people are saying it should be banned already but I feel as if this is a case where we need to wait for Dynamax to be banned first, because when Dynamax is banned, it will actually stay locked into a move and be easier to play around. Could still be too strong(and probably will be), but I don't think the trigger should be pulled just yet

Not really going to say much more about either of these two because I feel like it's beating a dead horse.

TL;DR just rip the bandaid off already and ban Dynamax and almost certainly Gmax as well so we can move onto seeing what the other issues are, because Dynamax is going to be banned regardless and i'd rather be a month in with Dynamax gone and something else being tested then with only Dynamax maybe being gone

 

[Karxrida]

I suppose to weigh in on the Dynamax issue I would have to say I would be in favour of a complex clause, like banning Dynamax from choice locked Pokemon, however this sadly won't happen

Complex clauses won't and shouldn't happen because they're stupid, short-sighted, and lead to bullshit like the Baton Pass clusterfuck in Gen 6.

 

[Curtain]

I think, besides the fact that sweepers can become pretty much unstoppable, and choice locked mons can now switch up moves, making them even harder to check, the main problem with dynamax is that mons that shouldnt win a 1v1 situation suddenly can by dynamaxing, ( for exaple, Hydreigon shouldnt be able to win a 1v1 vs Dragapult cause he's slower, but if he dynamax he can take the dragon move and kill Dragapult back with his own stab) this makes everything so inconsistent, and even easy tasks like revengekilling become a guessing game thats clearly unhealthy and uncompetitive.

 

[UHX]

I personally find the nail in the coffin of dynamax is the choice avoidance, as things like darm have incredible power and coverage, but can be scouted and predicted, and then appropriately answered. the problem is, nothing stops Darm from just dynamaxing and neglecting its choice lock, [eg I have a manibuzz in, and switch into a pex on a crash. it then just max quakes, killing it.] Really the only way to work around this is correctly predict your opponent for 3 turns, which can easily go wrong, and if it does go wrong, it opens the floodgates for the mon to run wild, as my premier switch-in for their move is now gone, allowing them to freely spam moves. this can invalidate bulkier teams, as a massive hole gets punched right through for free, potentially invalidating my team's defensive backbone, which i think makes dynamax unbalanced.

 

[PokePoindexter]

• 3 turns is more than enough to change the entire game-state despite being pretty brief. This should not be used as a strong point against it, especially given the lasting impacts (stat boosts, terrain, weather, etc.) of some Dynamax moves.
• The fact that HP is doubled is already ridiculous. What more could you want?
• The unpredictability factor makes it much more troublesome as it makes the game, in part, a guessing/timing game as opposed to consistent strategy being applied. Others have touched on this at length, but I feel like this point works against you a lot more than you realize.

And the fact that it's available to both players means you can also potentially swing a match back in your favor by Dynamaxing yourself. I know that argument can apply to a lot of other Pokemon/mechanics as well (e.g. Naganadel last gen, Aegislash in XY, Drizzle+Swift Swim in BW, etc.), but the difference in those cases was that I felt as though I had to both go out of my way to find something obscure to beat them, and that I would use it only for the purpose of countering that one thing. With Dynamax, I personally don't feel like I have to do that nearly as much. Now, I know that's just my own experiences, but compared to the reign of terror Naganadel had and would have continued to have if it remained legal in USUM, Dynamaxed mons don't scare me as much as Naga did (and probably still would if it were usable now).

A lot of these things are broken through via Dynamax or extreme measures/uncommon (I mean you just mentioned Red Card in a serious post...).

You might notice that all of the Pokemon I listed are viable in OU (and would probably still be if Dynamax were banned) and included reps from a variety of different playstyles. As for the Red Card, let's just say that if more players used it, there would have probably been, for instance, far fewer Volcarona or Zygarde sweeps last gen. Just chew on that for a second. Although if it doesn't work on Dynamaxes, then I guess the purpose of bringing it up is moot anyway.

These comparisons are not really fair as the core functionality of these things differ so fundamentally from Dynamaxing. I understand the call for hesitance and we are not about to quickban it with the blink of an eye, but a proper suspect is more than justified and a vote could lead to a ban in the near future if we elect to proceed that way.

So you and I agree that it's unreasonable to rush to ban it yet? Good. I'm not suggesting that it doesn't deserve a suspect at some point; I'm suggesting it deserves a bit more time for more people to get used to it before we suspect it.

These are the equivalent of 1100 ladder arguments re: "only bad players use it". Adaptation is indeed a valuable skill for experienced players, but there becomes a point when any degree of adaptation is not going to be enough to be consistent against certain uncompetitive/broken strategies.

It's still poor sportsmanship to trash someone for using something that is - at least at this point in time - perfectly legal to use.

Anyway, regarding my personal opinion on Dynamaxing so far, I'd say this: I think some Pokemon do indeed take the mechanic too far. Ideally, I'd suggest something where you can't Dynamax a Pokemon that has a Choice Item or has boosted at least one stat prior to Dynamaxing. Of course, I'm not sure how feasible it would be to do that, so if it's easier to just outright ban Dynamaxing, have at it. It's just my nature to try and offer some food for thought or sometimes even play Devil's Advocate whenever a topic like this sprouts up. But again, I still think we should wait a little longer to see how the meta adapts before suspecting/banning it.

 

[ChrisSweeper]

a great example of this is that's used in game theory is the instant win button. Lets say both parties have it and can use it at any time. This is very balanced and fair as both parties have and have equal access to it. Now is this competitive and rewarding? I mean for literal 2 year olds probably but other than that and losers, no lol

I'm convinced that people making these arguments haven't actually played the game with Dynamax, either arguing in theory based on what they have heard or they played a few games and their Sun/Moon stall team didn't work anymore.

How much time have you really spent team building in a week?

The discussion sounds more like a political issue where people are annoyed about other things too (Dexit) and it's clouding their judgement.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Dynamax is definitely meta defining but... it’s supposed to be? There are so many ways to stall out those 3 turns and if your opponent doesn’t make good use of that window it puts them at a huge disadvantage.

I’ve seen people mention multi turn moves. Every mon can use sub and protect. People will adapt eventually. Now setup mons are a whole different story but the point is, nobody is really making an effort to counter Dynamax outside slapping a Ditto on.

Are the current OPs really going to be any less dominant with Dynamax banned?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I'm convinced that people making these arguments haven't actually played the game with Dynamax, either arguing in theory based on what they have heard or they played a few games and their Sun/Moon stall team didn't work anymore.

How much time have you really spent team building in a week?

The discussion sounds more like a political issue where people are annoyed about other things too (Dexit) and it's clouding their judgement.

There are many things you could call Thunder Pwoell. Unskilled and inexperienced are not on that list of things.

Dynamax is definitely meta defining but... it’s supposed to be? There are so many ways to stall out those 3 turns and if your opponent doesn’t make good use of that window it puts them at a huge disadvantage.

I’ve seen people mention multi turn moves. Every mon can use sub and protect. People will adapt eventually. Now setup mons are a whole different story but the point is, nobody is really making an effort to counter Dynamax outside slapping a Ditto on.

Are the current OPs really going to be any less dominant with Dynamax banned?

Just because it's supposed to be centralizing doesn't make it okay, and it's been explained several times over that even if you can stall out a Dynamax, you're still in a lot of trouble afterward because of the stat boosts given from max moves.

 

[peng]

Dynamax is definitely meta defining but... it’s supposed to be? There are so many ways to stall out those 3 turns and if your opponent doesn’t make good use of that window it puts them at a huge disadvantage.

I’ve seen people mention multi turn moves. Every mon can use sub and protect. People will adapt eventually. Now setup mons are a whole different story but the point is, nobody is really making an effort to counter Dynamax outside slapping a Ditto on.

Are the current OPs really going to be any less dominant with Dynamax banned?

As people have mentioned a million times in this thread, there is counterplay for basically everything in the game but its important to note how niche and specific that counterplay is, and whether forcing its use is detrimental to your ability to cover other threats. For example, you could argue Zacian isn't broken if you just run multiple Choice Scarfed Ground / Fire-types - this is clearly ridiculous logic, because at a certain point trying to prepare for Zacian is therefore highly limiting your valuable teamslots / moveslots and you're probably super super weak to one of the other 50 threats in the game as a result. There is no Pokemon in the game thats unbeatable, but there are some that require such dedicated and niche counterplay that it turns teambuilding into just "pick your poison" - this is ultimately why we ban stuff.

By comparison, something like Lando-T which low ladder people were clamoring for a ban for the past 2 gens barely forces your hand at all in teambuilding - you basically need a couple of ground immunes / resists and a couple of Pokemon that can hit it super effectively, but even if Lando-T didn't exist you'd literally have these anyway because these are useful slots to have against tons of other Pokemon in the game.

With regards to all the options that people list off to deal with Dynamax: 1) They are highly tailored to beat Dynamax and therefore niche and 2) they are not even reliable at doing it anyway. Let's go through them.

1) Protect / Detect / King's Shield / Baneful Bunker - These are probably the most viable out of all the options because they are useful without Dynamaxing, but let's at least consider how they work. Best case scenario for a Protect user vs Dynamax is this: Opponent Dynamaxes in front of your Protect user, and you Protect first turn, take 25% damage and they get the boost they want. Turn 2, you have to either sit in (presumably if you can KO the opponent then they wouldn't Dynamax in your face though) and survive an attack, or switch into a resisted. Turn 3, you can Protect again to lose 25%, let them boost again. Now you've staved off the initial onslaught, but you've still taken significant damage, facing down a healthy threat with 3 boosts, and this is even in the best case scenario. This, and the fact that its forced you to use Protect on a Pokemon that you may not have wanted to, just to apparently "win" this situation vs Dynamax.

2) Substitute - Same as above but potentially even worse, as you have to be faster than the Dynamax Pokemon for it to be reliable (what if they just Max Airstream on your Sub and outspeed next turn lol), and again, you're surrendering a lot of health over 3 turns just to apparently "win" the exchange. Not to mention, if you're proactive with Substitute and get it up early, your opponent just isn't going to Dynamax in front of you until its gone anyway. Only mon that can consistently do this is Grimmsnarl, but it still gives away 3 boosts to the opponent and you lose 75% for that "winning" exchange.

3) Multi-turn moves - We shouldn't even have to mention this because they are so blatantly terrible. Yes, they can temporarily do a job against Dynamax Pokemon, but you are definitely still taking a lot of damage on the turn you surface. Outside of Dynamax, these moves are a liability, for two reasons. Firstly, they are complete set-up fodder for something like DD Gyarados, DD Dragapult, SD Hawlucha etc either before or after Dynamaxing. Dive gives a completely free switch-in to Dracovish if it wants. Dig gives a free switch-in to Gyarados and Hawlucha. Secondly, in your own post you are advising people to use more Protecting moves, which makes multi-turn moves completely and utterly useless! I cannot think of a single instance where I'd want to use this with the exception of Phantom Force Dragapult (which still gets hit by Ghost type moves lmao)- every single other one is absolute trash and will be fully taken advantage of by anyone good.

4) Priority - as previously stated, the vast majority of good priority users got axed, and the ones that currently exist can't do anything against the good Dynamax Pokemon.

5) Focus Sash - gets brought up a lot, you have to keep hazards off the field, no weather, and there's also no Focus Sash user that reliably beats all Dynamax mons so where do you even choose where to put it?

Honestly, nobody is arguing that Dynamax is uncounterable but I think the vast majority of good players will acknowledge that the counterplay is super niche, and means that e.g. even if you get around Gyarados using Dive Toxapex or some rubbish like that, guess what you now just lose to set-up sweeper XYZ because you don't have scald. Its beatable but its impossible to make a team that consistently matches up well against Dynamax users that isn't horrifically deficient in other areas, which, in the long-term, just turns the game into one of team match-up.