Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)

[Is Dracovish Banned Yet?]

This mon is such a weird case from a tiering prospective, since I have not seen anything quite like it. It is that perfect example of it's not quite strong enough to be considered overpowered in my book, but it centralizes the meta a great deal to keep it in check. Bulkier teams usually end up running one of three options:

. Needless to say Toxapex and Ferrothorn would more than likely still be popular mons in the metagame regardless of Vish, but it's worth noting they are forced to run max Physdef to switch into Vish. However, Seismitoad, and Gastrodon to a certain degree, having such a defined niche in OU can be directly linked to the presence of Dracovish. While Seismitoad is a solid mon that provides a Ground-typing in a tier with less options in that department than last gen, and helps check other popular mons like Rotom-H it just doesn't make sense to me that Toed was ranked 11th in OU usage for March. The fact Balance and bulky offense teams are more or less forced into running one of these mons is telling to me that Dracovish is an overcentralizing force that is not healthy for the overall state of SS OU.

That said offensive teams similarly have some struggles dealing with Dracovish. The Band set might honestly be easier for some more offensive teams in general to deal with as mons like Kyurem, Hydreigon, and Terrakion are able to outpace it and keep it in check offensively. The scarf set, which usually runs Adamant, can be outpaced by Dragapult and Zeraora which definitely helps offensive teams better deal with Dracovish. Top this all off with some stronger priority users like Bisharp and Conkeldurr that can handle taking one non double damaged Fisheous Rend and offense has a fighting chance. While this is all fine and dandy it's also worth spotlighting that if offensive teams don't have one of these faster mons/strong priority users in they essentially lose a mon, meaning Dracovish is far from useless in the matchup offense just arguably has an easier time dealing with the Vish in a creative fashion than having to rely on the same 3-4 choices for switch ins like balance.

As I mentioned earlier Dracovish is by no means unstoppable, it's just potentially to centralizing as it forces bulkier teams into a smaller box team building wise. I really don't see its presence in the tier as anything but an unhealthy hindrance to the team building process.

I want everyone to take a close hard look at these 2 calcs:

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. Rocky Helmet 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

While it's true "bulkier teams usually end up running one of three options" only one of them actually works well.

#QuickBanVish

Random Person #467
"I think Dracovish is unhealthy for x, y and z reasons"
Entire thread for weeks (months?) on end:

We do not need to suspect it. Please, save us some time on this one and just quickban, has there been a single real defense of it other than it kills Clef? There are suspect worthy things that could go either way but they are not Dracovish, whose ban seems all but inevitable should it go through the suspect process.

Hey I luv u

 

[Blue glass]

This is how quickbans work though? I thought they were only used to ban new mons added to the metagame not a consensus thing.

 

[fart goblin]

I honestly don't know if this is evidence towards or against banning Clefable but I'd just like to share this replay of a match I just had

Stall Clefable is disgustingly good. It's literally only able to be killed by an above-average Iron Head or two boosted SE special attacks, and it can't even be chipped down thanks to Magic Guard and Wish, not to mention reliably passing health recovery. I'm not saying it should be banned, but I'm saying that it is really, really, REALLY obnoxious to fight.

 

[Finchinator]

Random Person #467
"I think Dracovish is unhealthy for x, y and z reasons"
Entire thread for weeks (months?) on end:

We do not need to suspect it. Please, save us some time on this one and just quickban, has there been a single real defense of it other than it kills Clef? There are suspect worthy things that could go either way but they are not Dracovish, whose ban seems all but inevitable should it go through the suspect process.

This is a really bad post. Dracovish is banworthy in my opinion and I think it going would help free-up teambuilding, but a quickban would be entirely irresponsible and an abuse of power. There is counterplay to it, it has been in the tier for months, and the sample size you are pulling from in your post (some past posters in this thread) you are misrepresenting and is also a very limited one. Dracovish will absolutely not be quickbanned. There will be no quickbans prior to DLC. There is a chance for a pre-DLC suspect and Dracovish is something we are strongly considering.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

I'm a little sad that Melmetal didn't make it into OU, but I do think it will come back down the line, so I'm not too stressed. For this post I will be borrowing Ruft's formatting to give my thoughts on which elements of the game I personally think are worthy of undergoing a suspect test going forward.

Elements I believe to be clearly problematic:



Dracovish is the single most prevalent issue that I have regarding this metagame. I have time and again heard complaints about how stale team compositions are in this metagame. I would argue that this thing is the primary reason for that problem existing. Any non-HO team lacking a water immunity gets beaten down. Period. Not to mention how well this thing synergizes with my second pick for 'should be suspect tested'. WishPort into Dracovish is nasty. You've heard this all before, but it needs to be said, this thing's effect on teambuilding is unhealthy and overcentralising. I think this thing needs to go.



I agree with the general consensus that WishPort Clef is too much for the metagame. It's usage is unbelievable, being near mandatory on balance and warping teambuilding as a result. In previous generations, have you ever felt that your breaker would be a million times better with reliable recovery? Have you ever wanted the freest switchins of your life? This beast is your answer. Clef has been solid for three generations now, and I would argue that it is currently even better than it was in ORAS. It's bulk, defensive typing, abilities (yes, after testing I think unaware is solid too, don't @ me) and ability to blanket check an insane amount of threats has always been good. I would argue, in difference to Ruft that WishPort pushes it over the edge to broken. This isn't discrediting how insane this mon already was Pre-Home meta. I would say it was already unhealthy for the metagame at large. Just that I believe that is WishPort that will ultimately result in this Pokemon being banned. LO clef remains a threat btw.



Zeraora is in my humble opinion, broken. I would argue this thing is similar to two previous suspects, one in ORAS and one in USUM. Those are Greninja and Zygarde respectively. I say this because of how this thing is 'reliably checked'. In that it isn't. This thing is both versatile and strong, meaning that reliable checks are only reliable if you correctly guess its set. This is not balanced gameplay. Sure there is some skill in scouting and predicting the set it is running, but the onus that this places on the player without zeraora is... difficult to say the least. Games can just devolve into "I need to keep my whole team above --% health or I just lose to Zeraora" OR "I'm fine as long it's not running THAT move". This thing is a pain in the nuts to prep for, requiring at the minimum 2 Pokemon that check different Zeraora sets, or you can be in serious danger of instantly losing. Therefore, I think it is worthy of a suspect. Right after public enemy number 1 and 2 above.


Elements I'm more on the fence about but that I do think are worthy of a suspect test:



I'm a little on the fence about Kyurem. I recognize it's great ability to break half the tier in half. but I do think that thing has 'reliable' answers, which will see usage rises once LORD VISH is banned (if it is). People may disagree with this view, but I am okay with B-C tier picks getting solid usage if it is as an answer to the meta. In this case stuff like Bronzong, Snorlax, Sylveon etc. That being said, Sp Def Corvi and Clef do generally get the job done. Just not in all cases (thank you 10% freeze chance). I dunno, I don't struggle with this mon as much as other things here. That being said, I do think it worthy of a suspect test.

There are... interesting ways to get around defensive steel types that avoid EP though



See Ruft's post, he explains this better than I can. That being said, I AM a proud Neutralising Gas Weezing man, so this is less of an issue to my teams personally. For everybody else, this thing is stupid dumb. The only reason I could deal with it during this suspect test was the amount of people who stay in against lead Melmetal. TL;DR I think this mon is too strong for the tier as it stands, and should be suspected to see if it is worthy of ridesharing.

Elements I'm more on the fence about but that I do think are potentially worthy of a ban:

View attachment 239097

This one is a bit dicier. I think that King's Rock (and the other flinch item) could potentially be worthy of a straight up quickban. I just think that when this item is abused, it is ultimately uncompetitive. Cloyster and Weaville being the two main culprits that come to mind. I don't really have much to say about this one. I could run inner focus, or steadfast or whatever, sure. But should I have to? Is it not stupid that part of the reason Cloyster was so viable was because you could just flinch past your checks? Serene Grace abusers are in a similar boat, but there is sufficient counterplay to those. This just feels cheap.

Elements that I believe will be a problem in the future

View attachment 239058

I am of the genuine belief that teleport will prove to be too much for the metagame once DLC drops, and will require a suspect test. I haven't seen the full list of Pokemon that will get it. I do however, know that Slowbro and Chansey will get it. Teleport will be too much on these Pokemon, especially on Chansey. If you think WishPort Clef was bad, wait until you see this thing. It is for this reason that I am hesitant to ban Clef itself at this stage. Let's say Clef gets banned, in no small part due to it gaining Teleport and running the metagame. The ramifications of this decision will be felt in future suspects. At what point do we ban a move > the Pokemon that use it. Baton Pass is the main comparable example here, and that was a whole debacle that could've been avoided by just banning the clearly broken move which required very niche counterplay. Teleport on the other hand, doesn't really have much counterplay. The priority and momentum that this move can provide is insane, especially when combined with Wish. I do think it is worthy of a potential ban once DLC drops, but that's theorymoning, so I guess we will see.

This is unrelated to any talk of suspect tests, but I just wanted to say that I've started using Galarian Weezing with Neutralizing Gas after reading your post, and I love him. Sure you're usually better off with something like Rotom-Heat or Corviknight, but having probably the best switch into Conk and one of the best switches into Zeraora is amazing. Experimenting with other niche uses for Neutralizing Gas, like denying weather setting abilities (which is probably the most useful against Alolan Ninetales), is a ton of fun too. So yeah, thanks for enlightening me to the beautiful Pokemon that is Galarian Weezing

 

[Ewin]

Don't feel like discussing vish because its mostly repetitive, so why not talk about 1 of my favorite mons rn Primarina!

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SpA / 44 SpD / 148 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Scald
- Substitute
- Calm Mind

I'm going to be mainly be focusing on Primarinas sub cm set for this post. The spread here allows Primarina to keep subs up vs clef without any boosts, you also creep mons that like to creep Conk like Seismitoad, which allows you to sub up before they can knock/toxic your Primarina. The moveset is pretty self explanatory. Primarina is usually able to 6-0 many teams from team preview simply because it can get free subs up vs most defensive mons (ferro,bpress corv,pex,clef,seismitoad,mandibuzz,hippowdon,kommo-o) for free and start to cm up. Defensively your best is most likely pwhip ferro and it isn't all that common, though your mainly trying to deal with Primarina offensively, which poses its own set of problems esp if primarina is alrdy behind a sub, if that is the case you most likely will have to sack a mon to get rid of the sub and pressure Prim with something like Zeroara. Theres are also more niche sets like specs and trapper though I personally think this is the best Prim set atm, I'd love to hear your thoughts
​

 

[JTD783]

Don't feel like discussing vish because its mostly repetitive, so why not talk about 1 of my favorite mons rn Primarina!

View attachment 239534
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SpA / 44 SpD / 148 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Scald
- Substitute
- Calm Mind

I'm going to be mainly be focusing on Primarinas sub cm set for this post. The spread here allows Primarina to keep subs up vs clef without any boosts, you also creep mons that like to creep Conk like Seismitoad, which allows you to sub up before they can knock/toxic your Primarina. The moveset is pretty self explanatory. Primarina is usually able to 6-0 many teams from team preview simply because it can get free subs up vs most defensive mons (ferro,bpress corv,pex,clef,seismitoad,mandibuzz,hippowdon,kommo-o) for free and start to cm up. Defensively your best is most likely pwhip ferro and it isn't all that common, though your mainly trying to deal with Primarina offensively, which poses its own set of problems esp if primarina is alrdy behind a sub, if that is the case you most likely will have to sack a mon to get rid of the sub and pressure Prim with something like Zeroara. Theres are also more niche sets like specs and trapper though I personally think this is the best Prim set atm, I'd love to hear your thoughts
​

Not much to add, but this thing is a menace for balance to play around and gives offense a huge headache if it gets a sub up. It doesn't have to worry about Pex too much since most of them aren't running Haze currently. Corv+Clef+Pex/Toad really can't do much against Primarina. I'm planning on building with this and Rotom-H later because the latter beats Zeraora, Volt Switches out against Hydreigon and Dragapult, and can double into Primarina on Seismitoad.

 

[zedhatool]

I built a team around your Primarina set because I'm really interested in using anything that will shake up this metagame. I feel that OU is especially stale this generation due to heavy centralization, so I tried to use some more niche anti-meta mons.

Team Paste

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SpA / 44 SpD / 148 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Moonblast

Chandelure @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Trick

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 108 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Roost
- Defog
- U-turn

Toxtricity @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Overdrive
- Sludge Wave
- Boomburst

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 152 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Recover
- Giga Drain

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin

Explanation

Primarina is the win condition and star of the show. I can attest to the fact that this sets up on basically the entire metagame, even things like Kyurem locked into Ice Beam on a correct prediction. Once behind a sub it cleans house, and the longevity afforded by leftovers recovery enables Primarina to set up more than once a game if it fails to sweep.

Chandelure is a mon I think is very underrated in this metagame. If you can get it in safely, something not hard given the number of passive balance cores this generation, specs Fire Blast is insane, and everyone knows how good ghost typing is this generation—a specs base 145 shadow ball is nothing to sneeze at. I run Jolly on my Chandelure but I'm sure you could run Modest for the extra power, this thing basically only comes in against slow mons anyway. It also surprisingly annihilates sun, virtually walling non-earth power Venusauar and OHKOing back with fire blast. It almost OHKOs Torkoal with fire blast in the sun, too. All in all, Chandelure is an obscene wallbreaker that pressures Primarina's checks like Ferrothorn and SpDef Corviknight.

Corviknight patches up the team's weaknesses to Bisharp, Excadrill, and other strong physical threats. I don't really like SpDef Corviknight and it doesn't fit on this team anyway, so I opted for a physical set with Body Press. The EV Spread is from the early days of the metagame and I haven't bothered to update it but I'm sure it could use some optimizing and modification for new offensive threats. As it is, the defense is a jump point on Excadrill and Conk.

Toxtricity and Primarina form a pretty nice duo—Primarina beats Hippowdown and Seismitoad, while Toxtricity beats Corviknight and Toxapex while also removing Mandibuzz for Excadrill. Toxtricity definitely is not as good as it was in the early meta, and is definitely prediction reliant, but still has a definitive niche in this metagame.

Excadrill reminds me of how much I miss Landorus-T. Having a ground type that could reliably run scarf was great. I miss SM so much :( !! Anyway, scarf drill actually sits at a pretty good speed tier in this metagame, and is able to outspeed and revenge kill a lot of threats that would otherwise give this team trouble, as well as beating a lot of rotom formes that the team would otherwise lose to.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I built a team around your Primarina set because I'm really interested in using anything that will shake up this metagame. I feel that OU is especially stale this generation due to heavy centralization, so I tried to use some more niche anti-meta mons.

Team Paste

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SpA / 44 SpD / 148 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Moonblast

Chandelure @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Trick

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 108 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Roost
- Defog
- U-turn

Toxtricity @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Overdrive
- Sludge Wave
- Boomburst

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 152 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Recover
- Giga Drain

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin

Explanation

Primarina is the win condition and star of the show. I can attest to the fact that this sets up on basically the entire metagame, even things like Kyurem locked into Ice Beam on a correct prediction. Once behind a sub it cleans house, and the longevity afforded by leftovers recovery enables Primarina to set up more than once a game if it fails to sweep.

Chandelure is a mon I think is very underrated in this metagame. If you can get it in safely, something not hard given the number of passive balance cores this generation, specs Fire Blast is insane, and everyone knows how good ghost typing is this generation—a specs base 145 shadow ball is nothing to sneeze at. I run Jolly on my Chandelure but I'm sure you could run Modest for the extra power, this thing basically only comes in against slow mons anyway. It also surprisingly annihilates sun, virtually walling non-earth power Venusauar and OHKOing back with fire blast. It almost OHKOs Torkoal with fire blast in the sun, too. All in all, Chandelure is an obscene wallbreaker that pressures Primarina's checks like Ferrothorn and SpDef Corviknight.

Corviknight patches up the team's weaknesses to Bisharp, Excadrill, and other strong physical threats. I don't really like SpDef Corviknight and it doesn't fit on this team anyway, so I opted for a physical set with Body Press. The EV Spread is from the early days of the metagame and I haven't bothered to update it but I'm sure it could use some optimizing and modification for new offensive threats. As it is, the defense is a jump point on Excadrill and Conk.

Toxtricity and Primarina form a pretty nice duo—Primarina beats Hippowdown and Seismitoad, while Toxtricity beats Corviknight and Toxapex while also removing Mandibuzz for Excadrill. Toxtricity definitely is not as good as it was in the early meta, and is definitely prediction reliant, but still has a definitive niche in this metagame.

Excadrill reminds me of how much I miss Landorus-T. Having a ground type that could reliably run scarf was great. I miss SM so much :( !! Anyway, scarf drill actually sits at a pretty good speed tier in this metagame, and is able to outspeed and revenge kill a lot of threats that would otherwise give this team trouble, as well as beating a lot of rotom formes that the team would otherwise lose to.

There's pretty much no reason to run Liquid Hyper Voice over Torrent + Sparkling Aria on this team. You're trading a hefty power boost at low health for the guarantee that you won't heal any of those 10% Fire Blast burns from Chandelure.

 

[JinLong88]

I built a team ...

I'd agree with DrPumpkinz comment, a Torrent boosted Aria is powerful from Prima.
I'd point out that alternatively a benefit of Scald is your chance to burn Ferros and provide an earlier chance for 'Tricity to destroy their defense.

Also, Zeraora would kill your Celebi coming in:

252 Atk Life Orb Zeraora Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 108+ Def Leftovers Celebi in Two Turns:
341-403 (84.6 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So if I used the team I'd tweak your set a little:

Celebi @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 152 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Recover
- Psychic​

This allows you to better recover/seed vs Zera, as well as Psychic to improve your Conk matchup.
Also allows you to take a Crunch OK from Vish so you aren't too crippled to switch into Ferro or Clef or whatev later and potentially get a free recover.
Preserving the bulk of this pivot seems important for your team imo.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

People need to run more Ngas G-Weezing with Taunt. It not only denies Clefable's passive damage immunity
(Sandstorm and Poison Damage and Clef suddenly isn't as scary)
It also denies Regenerator if your faster Pokemon switches out into Weezing, while you predict Pex switching out into something else

Also having a great check to Conk / Kommo / Pult and Terrakion is also sweet

 

[McCoolDude]

I've posted on this in a few places, but I see people trying to pin down exactly what makes telewish Clefable broken.

Most often, I see the issue blamed on teleport + wish. The combination of Teleport and Wish exists in other Pokemon, it's really not that. It's the addition of Magic Guard to teleport and wish that breaks Clefable. Even without wish, I think Clefable would be extremely powerful with the combination of soft-boiled + teleport (though obviously not as good as with wish).

This sounds, to most, odd. Why would Magic Guard, an ability that has existed for quite some time, break anything?

Well, let's go back to the first meta to experience the new teleport mechanics to find out! That was Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee! I know a lot of you skipped it, but this is where new teleport was first introduced, and it's where we saw how good it could really be, as well as the meta that had the most time (so far) to adapt to it.

So what had teleport in that meta? Well, most of the same things that have it now and were available then (Clefable also had it). However, there was only one notable user: Chansey.

Chansey had the bulk to wall out every special attacker other than sub Gengar. Most notably, it would completely shut down Starmie, to the point that the Starmie analysis recommends running Toxic specifically to punish Chansey - it was that effective at eating Starmie's hits.

Despite this, Chansey was considered a somewhat niche pick. It was hardly the staple we see from Clefable in the current meta.

So what was the adaptation? Careful doubles when sending Starmie in? Never attacking with Starmie (outside of toxic) for fear of giving up momentum for nothing?

No. It was merely calling the teleport and attacking again.

You see, Chansey would take 12% from stealth rock, ~16% from the first attack, ~16% from the second attack, and then teleport out. Then, an offensive Starmie check would be forced in, and those were generally fairly easy to pivot into. The next time Starmie was in, Chansey would be at ~58% in the back, and would take the 12% from rocks + 16% from Starmie's attacks if it came in, leaving it sitting pretty at 30%, or easily within the range of a guaranteed 2HKO from Starmie after rocks. It was then forced to heal instead of teleporting, attacking, or using a status move. If it chose to do anything but soft-boiled, it could no longer serve as a Starmie check after only checking Starmie twice. This let the player who was fighting against teleport regain momentum.

The addition of Magic Guard removes those rocks turns. It removes spikes turns. It removes status damage. This means that wearing down Clefable is exclusively done by the attacker the Clefable player is choosing to switch in on. Hazards won't punish Clefable for coming in on Toxapex or Toad and immediately wish or port to something else.

Basically, the addition of Magic Guard (and leftovers) means that having anything on your team that is unable to sufficiently damage Clefable (by itself) and force it to heal itself means that Clefable can just dance around with free switches until it finds turns to do whatever it wanted to do. Having anything on your team that can't threaten Clefable makes Clefable strong versus your team (ironically, support Clefable can't threaten opposing support Clefable, so they frequently use each other for free turns).

The counterplay is basically the same: maintain offensive pressure on it. Now the addition of lefties means you also need to prioritize removing its passive recovery. However, Magic Guard dramatically reduces the avenues a player has to pressuring Clefable (to exclusively direct damage). It makes Clefable able to do this quite a few times against strong meta Pokemon (like pex and Toad) before succumbing to the pressure and being forced to heal itself (the notable exception being specs Kyurem immediately forcing a heal).

How do we fix this? A complex ban of MG+ Clef? Teleport + Wish? MG + teleport? All of these have been suggested, but I don't believe that is the right answer. It's on many things and isn't broken on them. The same could be said for magic guard and wish (and soft-boiled). It is only the confluence of all three things that makes Clefable broken. The confluence of natural cure (removing status pressure), teleport, and bulk might do the same for Chansey, and regenerator (reducing offensive pressure) for Slowbro. As of right now, though, the only thing that has all of the pieces and seems to be broken is Clefable, so that'd be the place to start. If, when the other potential abusers appear (Slowbro and Chansey, even without wish, might have similar issues), teleport may need to be looked at as well.

TL;DR: no individual part of Clefable is broken on its own. Only the combination of all of its parts make it busted, so Clefable itself should be looked at in any potential suspect, in my opinion.

 

[p2]

I think the meta is currently in a weird place in that there's very little reason to have variety in teams used. Excadrill and Clef are far by 2 of the best mons to use, slap on a Water resist like Ferro/Pex, fuck it throw on Hippo to reliably beat Exca without using Corv and give your own Exca sand while the last 2 slots can be any combination of offensive mons (1 with Nasty Plot for sure) and some other strong breaker.

I have slowly found myself despising Dracovish a lot more, it's kinda fuckin lame. Really obnoxious on rain teams vs common sand, but hey that's just meta adaption to the new strongest playstyle. Looking at it somewhere down the line might be the thing to do, but I feel this will just encourage more water immunities because Pex and Ferro don't stand a chance vs Vish in rain lol. On the topic of immunities, Gastrodon is quite nice I like it right now

 

[Pokedom10]

i figured it out.

i did it.

i (think) figured it out.


i think i got it (Lapras) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 196 HP / 248 Def / 4 SpA / 4 SpD / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Perish Song
- Substitute
- Toxic

So, why Lapras? It seems unimpressive, but it holds multiple niches that other Water Absorb Pokemon don't have. Freeze Dry, and Perish Song.

4 SpA guarantees the KO on Vish {4 SpA Lapras Freeze-Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 324-384 (100.6 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO}, which is not something other Water Absorb Pokemon can claim to do. Dracovish is not going to compromise its Atk or Spe to bulk up. That's not ever going to happen; which is where Lapras shines. Note: You're not looking for significant damage on much else. The occasional chip on a couple things is nice and it matches up pretty well against Cloyster as well. But the real beauty is below.

Vish players are not (all) dummyheads. They know to pivot. And heck, not everyone is a Vish player. Unlike Toad, who is a massive momentum sink or flat out useless if the opponent doesn't have a Vish, Lapras keeps a form of pressure on the opponent with its other ace in the hole, Perish Song. This guarantees that the opponent has to make a pivot within the next 3 turns. Say they switch into Corv, which Lapras doesn't do much damage to. Perish Song forces Corv into an unhelpful scenario, where it must either pivot or die, limiting how much it can get done. Which Lapras can continue to exploit with Substitute and (not Toxic on Corv but if they pivot away Toxic hits something on the switch that isn't a Steel/Clef). This is also why 56 Spe is used; you tie Corv and get a jump on Clef (both are base 60, and if Clef runs Spe you're still getting a Perish off).

Other Vish pivots can't claim to do the things Lapras can.
- Toad is extremely passive, only providing rocks if the opponent has no Vish. The best it can do is try to spread Scald.
- Gastro does mostly the same thing, and is even more passive. It hits slightly harder than Toad but still is still pretty dead weight.
- Vaporeon feels weird. It has Wish and Heal Bell, and is reasonably bulky, but not to Lapras's degree. It also struggles justifying being a Wish user in the land of Clef. Feels really unexplored still but if they don't have a Vish it can at least try and do something.
- Don't use Lanturn.
- Toxicroak feels like another unexplored option but this Meta has a lot of Ground types and none of them really mind its attacks too much, even after a boost if it gets the right move. Again if they don't have Vish it's really hard to get in and start doing damage. Corv and Hippo utterly devour it.

Who partners well with it?
- My team used lead Specs Hatterene (which I discussed in an earlier post) to keep hazards off and blow a hole through things that could pose a problem, and works as an excellent quick pivot to keep something from being hit with status.
- SubRoost Kyurem has also been working, with Ice Beam and Earth Power it works as a great wincon after getting in.
- Vish itself. After Hat and Lapras get rid of its usual problems it's free to sweep.
- Lapras does not like Clef, even if it gets the jump on it. It also does not like HeatTom one bit. Exca hits it just... mmph! Perfect. You could also use Toxtricity, probably.

Is this set and spread optimized, or even good at all? Oh, most definitely probably not. Because guess what. I'm really really bad at this game. (Damn you crippling anxiety! Damn you to Heck and back!) Most of the games I played last night were either my opponent or myself playing really really dumb and instantly dying. You could probably swap Toxic for Scald and fix the EVs to not be so crazy, the only one you really really need is 4 SpA.

TL;DR: I feel like I'm an idiot. But this idiot has an idea! Can a non idiot give it a shot?

 

[Empress Mobile]

i figured it out.

i did it.

i (think) figured it out.


i think i got it (Lapras) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 196 HP / 248 Def / 4 SpA / 4 SpD / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Perish Song
- Substitute
- Toxic

So, why Lapras? It seems unimpressive, but it holds multiple niches that other Water Absorb Pokemon don't have. Freeze Dry, and Perish Song.

4 SpA guarantees the KO on Vish {4 SpA Lapras Freeze-Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 324-384 (100.6 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO}, which is not something other Water Absorb Pokemon can claim to do. Dracovish is not going to compromise its Atk or Spe to bulk up. That's not ever going to happen; which is where Lapras shines. Note: You're not looking for significant damage on much else. The occasional chip on a couple things is nice and it matches up pretty well against Cloyster as well. But the real beauty is below.

Vish players are not (all) dummyheads. They know to pivot. And heck, not everyone is a Vish player. Unlike Toad, who is a massive momentum sink or flat out useless if the opponent doesn't have a Vish, Lapras keeps a form of pressure on the opponent with its other ace in the hole, Perish Song. This guarantees that the opponent has to make a pivot within the next 3 turns. Say they switch into Corv, which Lapras doesn't do much damage to. Perish Song forces Corv into an unhelpful scenario, where it must either pivot or die, limiting how much it can get done. Which Lapras can continue to exploit with Substitute and (not Toxic on Corv but if they pivot away Toxic hits something on the switch that isn't a Steel/Clef). This is also why 56 Spe is used; you tie Corv and get a jump on Clef (both are base 60, and if Clef runs Spe you're still getting a Perish off).

Other Vish pivots can't claim to do the things Lapras can.
- Toad is extremely passive, only providing rocks if the opponent has no Vish. The best it can do is try to spread Scald.
- Gastro does mostly the same thing, and is even more passive. It hits slightly harder than Toad but still is still pretty dead weight.
- Vaporeon feels weird. It has Wish and Heal Bell, and is reasonably bulky, but not to Lapras's degree. It also struggles justifying being a Wish user in the land of Clef. Feels really unexplored still but if they don't have a Vish it can at least try and do something.
- Don't use Lanturn.
- Toxicroak feels like another unexplored option but this Meta has a lot of Ground types and none of them really mind its attacks too much, even after a boost if it gets the right move. Again if they don't have Vish it's really hard to get in and start doing damage. Corv and Hippo utterly devour it.

Who partners well with it?
- My team used lead Specs Hatterene (which I discussed in an earlier post) to keep hazards off and blow a hole through things that could pose a problem, and works as an excellent quick pivot to keep something from being hit with status.
- SubRoost Kyurem has also been working, with Ice Beam and Earth Power it works as a great wincon after getting in.
- Vish itself. After Hat and Lapras get rid of its usual problems it's free to sweep.
- Lapras does not like Clef, even if it gets the jump on it. It also does not like HeatTom one bit. Exca hits it just... mmph! Perfect. You could also use Toxtricity, probably.

Is this set and spread optimized, or even good at all? Oh, most definitely probably not. Because guess what. I'm really really bad at this game. (Damn you crippling anxiety! Damn you to Heck and back!) Most of the games I played last night were either my opponent or myself playing really really dumb and instantly dying. You could probably swap Toxic for Scald and fix the EVs to not be so crazy, the only one you really really need is 4 SpA.

TL;DR: I feel like I'm an idiot. But this idiot has an idea! Can a non idiot give it a shot?

I think a good number of us have looked at Lapras and determined that while it's a fantastic Dracovish check it simply has too many flaws to be effective. The fact that it would even warrant consideration is a testament to Dracovish's impact on the metagame. But it's absurdly easy entry for Zeraora and Conkeldurr, among other threats you don't want coming in for free. Its lack of reliable recovery compounded by its stealth rock weakness lend it to be easily worn down while its lack of damage output means it is rarely able to make tangible use of the roughly 2-3 chances it may get to switch in. The fact it pressures Corviknight to switch out is mostly irrelevant when Corviknight's premiere sets in the metagame are defensive pivot sets. Still, I applaud your attempt to find an unconventional Vish check in this somewhat stale metagame.

 

[scorbunnys]

Hello, today I will talk about a mon that is broken

I mean, it is very debatable at the moment, but I feel that Clefable is very broken, the reason is that Clefable TeleWish stagnates and centralizes too much, because in the teambuilder you have to worry a lot about this variant of Clefable, which makes this mon very insane for the metagame, normally takes a hit and uses Teleport, as I say Ruft, Clefable is almost mandatory in balanced (unless you use Sylveon, even with this you can use Clef), I also mention that it is so versatile, that It does not have safe counters, if you use Ferrothorn, it can surprise you with Flamethrower, if you use some poison, it can surprise you with Psyshock (it is not so common, but it is usable), they use some Toxapex, you use Thunderbolt, which means that he lacks counters in his Offensive set and his Defensive set stagnates too much, I don't understand why he didn't leave, is simply broken and very centralizing, even when the DLC comes out, i don't think Clefable should come back for a long time.

And the mons who would lose / win if Clefable leaves:
Winners:

Losers:

I think if Clefable leaves, there is a mon who should leave after that.

If Clefable leaves, Conkeldurr would lack checks, because 2HKO hits the entire metagame, which means that Conkeldurr would cause a lot of pressure on the teambuilder, because the only counters he would have are Mimikyu and Zeraora, but none can take his hits, which It means that the teams would be forced to run to Weezing-G, but this would also be insane, because one mon forced to lead another, it's just crazy, maybe if you get to explore the metagame a little more, it will probably stay, but otherwise if Clefable leaves, the next to leave must certainly be Conkeldurr.

and why Dracovish should you stay?

I think the metagame got used to it enough for Dracovish to stay, right now the Bulky Fairy + Bulky Water + Ferrothorn cores are really common and Dracovish can't break them, this implies that Dracovish is not really broken because if Well it causes some tension in the teambuilder, people already know how to handle it. I also mention that Dracovish has a great conflict with the item, if he carries Band it means that he will be slower than things like Kyurem and Hydreigon, so they can weaken him and if he carries Scarf, he can't deal with defensive cores and still can't deal with The aforementioned core does not manage to deal with Zeraora and Dragapult in any way, I think it is a good mon, but I do not think it is broken, it could have been banned before, but not now, I also need to mention that Mantine and Primarina are now options on the rise, which also damage Dracovish's viability, it is good if, but not enough to guarantee a ban, Keep Dracovish in OU for the moment.
I hope you like it

 

[zedhatool]

I think if Clefable leaves, there is a mon who should leave after that.
View attachment 239905
If Clefable leaves, Conkeldurr would lack checks, because 2HKO hits the entire metagame, which means that Conkeldurr would cause a lot of pressure on the teambuilder, because the only counters he would have are Mimikyu and Zeraora, but none can take his hits, which It means that the teams would be forced to run to Weezing-G, but this would also be insane, because one mon forced to lead another, it's just crazy, maybe if you get to explore the metagame a little more, it will probably stay, but otherwise if Clefable leaves, the next to leave must certainly be Conkeldurr.

There are many teams for which Clefable is not their defensive answer to Conkeldurr:
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 341-402 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 276-326 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
If SpDef Clefable is not at perfect health, it can't defensively check Conkeldur.
According to the Clefable 1825 usage stats, roughly 25% of Clefable are fully SpDef Calm right now. I'm not saying that you should keep your Conkeldurr in on Clefable, but most saying that Clefable leaving the metagame will mean Conkeldurr loses its only defensive check is wrong.

usage stats

Calm:252/0/0/4/252/0 12.687% | Calm:252/0/4/0/252/0 10.818% | Bold:252/0/252/0/4/0 7.739% | Calm:252/0/160/0/96/0 6.571% | Calm:252/0/232/0/24/0 2.842% | Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 2.566% | Other 56.777%

You're right that Conkeldurr would require bulkier teams to check it with a different mon. But that mon would not necessarily be Galarian Weezing. Hippowdon, Kommo-o, Weezing-G, Mew, Mimikyu, Arcanine, Corviknight, and a host of other pokemon can check Conkeldurr defensively depending on their sets and Conkeldurr's moves.

 

[scorbunnys]

There are many teams for which Clefable is not their defensive answer to Conkeldurr:
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 341-402 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 276-326 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
If SpDef Clefable is not at perfect health, it can't defensively check Conkeldur.
According to the Clefable 1825 usage stats, roughly 25% of Clefable are fully SpDef Calm right now. I'm not saying that you should keep your Conkeldurr in on Clefable, but most saying that Clefable leaving the metagame will mean Conkeldurr loses its only defensive check is wrong.

usage stats

Calm:252/0/0/4/252/0 12.687% | Calm:252/0/4/0/252/0 10.818% | Bold:252/0/252/0/4/0 7.739% | Calm:252/0/160/0/96/0 6.571% | Calm:252/0/232/0/24/0 2.842% | Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 2.566% | Other 56.777%

You're right that Conkeldurr would require bulkier teams to check it with a different mon. But that mon would not necessarily be Galarian Weezing. Hippowdon, Kommo-o, Weezing-G, Mew, Mimikyu, Arcanine, Corviknight, and a host of other pokemon can check Conkeldurr defensively depending on their sets and Conkeldurr's moves.

The problem is that all these mons eat damage
Hippowdon: Conkeldurr can 1v1 because Conk tends to be faster because he has full EVs in Speed and only eats 3HKO from Earthquake, while Hippowdon also eats 3HKO from Facade, which means that he can 1vs1.
Kommo-O: After rocks he dies from 2 Facade and does not hit him with Body Press, so he needs to be boosted with Iron Defense and at this point it is already very worn, so it is not really safe either.
Mew: I don't understand why you talk about Mew here, Mew dies from a single Knock Off and if he wears Sash, he still doesn't hit him hard, I don't understand what Mew does here.
Mimikyu: Here I have to give you the reason, but Mimikyu does not fit easily, Conkeldurr has great probabilities of holding a Play Rough and can finish him off with two Knock Offs, although having to carry Mimikyu in all teams, is not something healthy either.
Arcanine: Is also a check, but it does not go in reliably, even with Intimidate it dies from two Facade Guts, so it is not a reliable defensive answer either. It
Corviknight: Die of two Drain Punch after rocks, here is the calc:
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 195-231 (48.7 - 57.7%) - guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It is also not reliable, although it is a decent check, it is not reliable like any of the others.

Probably a ban may seem exaggerated, but the fact that it lacks real counters makes it an overly insane mon, I understand your argument, but it does deserve a ban, even if Clefable stays, altough yeah, TeleWish Clefable It is not a reliable answer, but it can at least threaten you if you play well even if it is Calm, although Conkeldurr is broken right now, the only ''reliable answer'' is Togekiss, but It would not be healthy to take Togekiss in all the teams just to check a mon that is broken.

 

[robofiend]

I actually agree that Clef should be first in line for a suspect - the problem is not that the meta has too many offensive threats that we can't adequately prep for, it's that a single defensive core (Clef+Corvi) is nearly ubiquitous and so powerful that it's just inefficient not to use them. Nearly every mon has multiple passable defensive checks, and while Conk, Vish, and Pult might be particularly scary to face, they all have defensive shortcomings that can/should be accounted for. In fact, the meta's offensive threats are often helped MORE by the presence of Wishport Clef than hurt by it, because they can afford to repeatedly take chip, LO, hazards, and so on and regularly find ways for Clef to boost them back to 100%, usually also against a weakened or mis-matched opponent.

The problem is that mons like Clefable fulfill the same role(s) as Vap, Sylv, or other potential Wish-passers or status sinks so much better than anything else that there is almost no reason not to use it. What team out there doesn't benefit from a mon who checks myriad offensive threats without fear of entry hazards or status? Clef, along with Corvi or Excadrill, nearly completely negate hazard teams (outside of Tspikes + Hex) because of their infinite longevity in keeping hazards off the field and pressuring the opponent into bad defensive postures. And unless your status team also has a great many Taunt users, its still not guaranteed that you can actually stop Clef from passing wishes to hurt teammates. Among the other threats that Clef accentuates is Corvi itself, who loves PP stalling with Pressure and with the help of Clefable can take on additional risk and then get bailed out by a well-timed wishport.

Dracovish is checked by Pex, Toed, Ferro, Primarina (to some small degree), Vaporeon, and potentially bulky grasses (if they were to ever show up in the meta). I just can't see the argument for a ban, given the options people have to stop it. Conk or Pult I could maybe see a test for, but again, that should come after suspecting a mon that helps every other offensive threat in the meta by giving them free, full health entries with Wishport.

 

[VTMagno]

I'm surprised no one has listed Togekiss as a check to Conk yet (or maybe someone did and I just haven't seen it). It can get OHKOd by Facade but if you can switch into any other attack you can outspeed and OHKO with Dazzling Gleam or Air Slash (which doesn't have 100% chance to OHKO after burn but has 60% chance to flinch so you probably won't have to worry about that)
252 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 350-414 (99.7 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after burn damage
252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 326-386 (92.8 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 277-326 (89 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[scorbunnys]

I'm surprised no one has listed Togekiss as a check to Conk yet (or maybe someone did and I just haven't seen it). It can get OHKOd by Facade but if you can switch into any other attack you can outspeed and OHKO with Dazzling Gleam or Air Slash (which doesn't have 100% chance to OHKO after burn but has 60% chance to flinch so you probably won't have to worry about that)
252 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 350-414 (99.7 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after burn damage
252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 326-386 (92.8 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 277-326 (89 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

the only ''reliable answer'' is Togekiss, but It would not be healthy to take Togekiss in all the teams just to check a mon that is broken.

I had already mentioned it, but taking Togekiss in all teams would be too insane for the metagame, because it means that you cannot carry other fairies and if you carry spam fairy, you have to build on this core to count the steels and have to doing something like this just for Conk is certainly not the example of a healthy metagame.

 

[Pokedom10]

I think a good number of us have looked at Lapras and determined that while it's a fantastic Dracovish check it simply has too many flaws to be effective. The fact that it would even warrant consideration is a testament to Dracovish's impact on the metagame. But it's absurdly easy entry for Zeraora and Conkeldurr, among other threats you don't want coming in for free. Its lack of reliable recovery compounded by its stealth rock weakness lend it to be easily worn down while its lack of damage output means it is rarely able to make tangible use of the roughly 2-3 chances it may get to switch in. The fact it pressures Corviknight to switch out is mostly irrelevant when Corviknight's premiere sets in the metagame are defensive pivot sets. Still, I applaud your attempt to find an unconventional Vish check in this somewhat stale metagame.

Thanks for the feedback! I think I'm going to still try to find some optimization to Lapras, as its qualities really appeal to me. The set I posted is probably the most "testing the waters (get it)" possible, and maybe some more crafting is needed to secure the win. Lapras also has more potential support moves like Roar and Heal Bell, and a lot of the stuff mentioned that keeps Lapras down makes Exca really good. I will keep you updated!

Onto more pressing matters:


Clef is... interesting. On the one hand, I think Balance should indeed be the dominant playstyle in a healthy meta. HO focus means there's a level of power that is hard to match, and Stall is... Stall. So I'm not opposed to WishPort Clef, in principle. If you're gonna do role compression, do it like Clef. Clef was designed to be the "create your own Pokemon" Pokemon, as evidenced by the appearances it has as a starter throughout Pokemon media, and further backed up by its sheer versatility. Clef will always, always be good. WishPort is dominant because it's what the Meta needs right now, but remember that Clef has proven to have multiple viable sets, from offensive to full support to any number of other options. To me at least, Clef screams OP not because it has one single set that runs the Meta right now. It screams OP because even if there were to be a complex TeleWish ban, Clef has like 3 or 4 things left up its stubby little sleeves. I believe that Clef, in this current Pre-DLC Meta, will always just adapt to whats working and exploit it, and should be at least suspected. Honestly even after DLC it could still be too much, because it can always just adapt around whatever is new. TeleWish is its best set because it's the most consistently great, but the fact that it can run any other set and still be great pushes it over the edge.

 

[JTD783]

A major trend I've observed in the past month and a half is that almost all Clefable sets are specially defensive and that the other lards it gets paired with, such as Ferro Pex and Toad, are always physically defensive. Clefable can check most special attackers but any that can get past it are really potent right now. Here's a list:

Can be taken advantage of because it's choice-locked, but Specs Overheat 2HKOs.

+2 LO Flash Cannon does 86.5% minimum (12.5% chance to OHKO) but Modest does 94.9% minimum (68.8% chance to OHKO). Pretty spicy.

Calm Mind variants set up easily and 2HKO with +2 Psychic. Psyshock flattens Clef but makes other matchups harder.

Sludge Wave always cleanly 2HKOs, even on sets without Nasty Plot or a boosting item.

Just skill through it with NP + Air Slash.

Usable again since Arena Trap is gone. Specs Boomburst and Sludge Wave 2HKO easily and stomp defensive cores.

SubCM, CM 3 Attacks, Expert Belt, etc all laugh at Clefable.

As a bonus, most of these can easily deal with Corviknight, regardless of the bird's set. Honorable mentions go to Specs Keldeo, SubCM Primarina, Reuniclus, and Salazzle for being good options too, but with somewhat worse matchups with Clefable or the meta in comparison to the mons listed above.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

The only ''reliable answer'' is Togekiss, but It would not be healthy to take Togekiss in all the teams just to check a mon that is broken.

I'm surprised no one has listed Togekiss as a check to Conk yet (or maybe someone did and I just haven't seen it). It can get OHKOd by Facade but if you can switch into any other attack you can outspeed and OHKO with Dazzling Gleam or Air Slash (which doesn't have 100% chance to OHKO after burn but has 60% chance to flinch so you probably won't have to worry about that)
252 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 350-414 (99.7 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after burn damage
252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 326-386 (92.8 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 277-326 (89 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

I don't think that Togekiss is a reliable answer to Conk, except in terms of revenge killing. Reliable is the key word there because potentially losing what is likely one of your best offensive presences (or at least taking 89% and possibly being in Mach Punch range) because you switched into a Facade is not reliable. That's like saying that ghosts such as Aegislash, Dragapult, and Gengar are checks to Conk because they're all immune to 3 of his 4 attacks. Knock Off OHKOs all of them, so if you predict wrong on the switch, you lose a mon. I don't think that constitutes a reliable check. Sure having ghosts or Togekiss to sometimes switch into Conk can pay off and it's better than nothing, but it's not going to be consistent enough as a check to Conk. Although, Mach Punch on Conk also makes it harder for things like Kyurem and Hydreigon to revenge kill it, so having options that don't care about Mach Punch to revenge kill/threaten it out can be important.

Knock Off in particular makes switching in against Conk even harder. Without megas or Z crystals to absorb Knock Off, it's arguably the best attacking move in the meta and often Conk can click it with impunity. If you're running Boots on something like Arcanine or Togekiss and switch them into a Knock from Conk, it becomes much harder to switch them in again later if Rocks are up.

To the best of my knowledge, the only mon that can repeatedly and reliably switch into Conk is Neutralizing Gas Galarian Weezing, and Facade still does a respectable 33.8-39.8%. I may be missing something, but seriously, that's the only thing I can think of. I love Galarian Weezing and that alone gives it some sort of a niche, but using it over things like Rotom-Heat or Corviknight just for Conk usually isn't worth it and opens you up to being weaker to other threats. You can also speed creep Conk with Corviknight or Clef and hit it hard with Brave Bird/Moonblast, but they're likely going to take a lot of damage from Conk in the process, so often you end up risking a very important mon to take down Conk. Trying to stall-out Conk with Pex might be your best bet right now, but again, getting knocked off makes it hard for Pex to repeatedly switch in against Conk. I guess that Hippo can beat it too if Conk is running Drain Punch, but I think that Close Combat is much better to use on Conk, especially when paired with Wish-Teleport Clef. CC from Conk 2HKOs max phys Def Hippo 96.1% of the time even with leftovers, so Hippo is better off just running Rocky Helmet against Conk anyway.

I also want to point out that I'm not completely anti-Conk. Conk fills an important role of being an excellent breaker in a meta that has become more defensive and also provides insurance against getting swept by stuff like Cloyster, Excadrill, and Bisharp, and sometimes Kyurem and Hydreigon. I also feel like safely letting Conk be out for a turn so that his Flame Orb can kick in isn't always as easy as it sounds and is something that a lot of the time isn't considered, but Teleport from Clef helps a lot with that. I'm not entirely sure what the repercussions would be for banning Conk, but I don't think it would help much if he was removed while other things like Clef and Kyurem remained. I just want to point out how ridiculous Conk is offensively, as before I don't think he was discussed enough with other more controversial mons like Clef and Dracovish being at the center of attention, but lately at least Conk has been talked about more.

 

[VeryOaty89]

The problem is that all these mons eat damage
Hippowdon: Conkeldurr can 1v1 because Conk tends to be faster because he has full EVs in Speed and only eats 3HKO from Earthquake, while Hippowdon also eats 3HKO from Facade, which means that he can 1vs1

I think you are forgetting the fact that Hippo has slack off. The only recovery that Conk has is drain punch. If the user with Hippo plays right and slack offs at the right time, the Hippo will win almost every time.