Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)

[DrPumpkinz]

Conkeldurr:
Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 38.682%
Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 11.149%
Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 5.248%
Adamant:72/252/0/0/0/184 3.133%
Adamant:128/252/0/0/0/128 3.008%
Adamant:76/252/0/0/0/180 2.233%

Hippowdon
Impish:252/4/252/0/0/0 33.706%
Impish:252/0/252/0/4/0 16.426%
Careful:252/0/4/0/252/0 7.944%
Impish:248/0/252/0/8/0 5.967%
Impish:252/8/248/0/0/0 3.188%
Impish:252/0/252/0/0/4 2.835%

What's this talk about Hippo switching in on Close Combat and forcing Conk out with Earthquake? A lot of Conks run speed investment, while almost no Hippos do the same. Conk is just going to blow Hippo away with Facade or a second Close Combat. And even if the Conk has no speed investment:

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. -1 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 186-220 (44.9 - 53.1%)

Sure, it hurts, but it's not a huge deal.

 

[p2]

conkeldurr without cc is cringe

 

[VeryOaty89]

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. -1 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 186-220 (44.9 - 53.1%)

Who runs 252 HP conk anymore? doesn't outspeed clef or corv

 

[VeryOaty89]

Kyurem Last month 1825+ usage at least 25% of them were modest and tho corvi is a straight 2hko , knocked off clef isn't a check without considering freeze or crit . In short every 4 kyurem in high ladder you see is a straight massacre if you ever consider using clef or corv as your kyurem check .

I would not call it a massacre
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With protect, Clef can get 2x the leftovers recovery + wish which still means it is a true counter. Of course, you still have crits and freezes, and it is your own fault if your clefable gets knocked off when there is a kyurem on the opposing team. You deserve to lose then. Once clef is in range of teleporting, it can teleport out into Hydreigon, Dragapult, etc. Also, if you bring in clef as an initial switch in, and have a Jirachi or Aegislash for example, after you see an ice beam, go straight to a steel type to force them out. Clef is a good "initial" switch in. If the Kyurem isnt modest, there shouldnt be much of a problem with it. If it is, go into a steel type, or a Snorlax, Rotom, etc.

 

[Saltytears]

I would not call it a massacre
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With protect, Clef can get 2x the leftovers recovery + wish which still means it is a true counter. Of course, you still have crits and freezes, and it is your own fault if your clefable gets knocked off when there is a kyurem on the opposing team. You deserve to lose then. Once clef is in range of teleporting, it can teleport out into Hydreigon, Dragapult, etc. Also, if you bring in clef as an initial switch in, and have a Jirachi or Aegislash for example, after you see an ice beam, go straight to a steel type to force them out. Clef is a good "initial" switch in. If the Kyurem isnt modest, there shouldnt be much of a problem with it. If it is, go into a steel type, or a Snorlax, Rotom, etc.

With how spammable knock off is from stuff like ferro clef pex toad which the best answer is your own clefable sometimes you don't have the choice it gets knocked off to your liking or not and has nothing to do with deserving to loose , anyways spedef clef isn't a true counter to even timid with lefties intact the best it does is pray till it get frozen .

 

[McCoolDude]

With how spammable knock off is from stuff like ferro clef pex toad which the best answer is your own clefable sometimes you don't have the choice it gets knocked off to your liking or not and has nothing to do with deserving to loose , anyways spedef clef isn't a true counter to even timid with lefties intact the best it does is pray till it get frozen .

Also, unless Kyurem has been chipped into range of moonblast, Clefable is forced to protect > wish > protect or be KO'd. This means that clef takes 2 ice beams every time it comes in without being able to attack, so it has a 19% chance of being frozen every time it comes in to stop Kyurem.

One of the most broken things about specs Kyurem is its ability to hax past its counter without much of a downside.

conkeldurr without cc is cringe

This is correct. Speedy conk does not* need drain punch's recovery as much in the telewish clef meta. CC allows conk to smack down many of the things that would otherwise pretty easily check it. Hippo, for example, is really not terribly threatened by facade if it's full health.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 170-201 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

But it's absolutely blown away if it tries to come in to CC.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 219-258 (25 - 29px) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Edit to add this part:

Who runs 252 HP conk anymore? doesn't outspeed clef or corv

That's kind of irrelevant to his point.

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 186-220 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and burn damage

Not only does it not significantly change the calculation, the whole scenario isn't good for hippo. If hippo clicks earthquake versus a -1 conk, the only way it survives that (barely) is if it came in on facade. Conk remains alive and handily finishes hippo if it stays in, so hippowdon is forced to swap and become death fodder, as it's so low on health that even a weak attack will finish it. Conk would have done its job by breaking the wall for your sweeper to finish, would still be alive, and would be in a prime position to punish with a coverage move.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

I would not call it a massacre
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With protect, Clef can get 2x the leftovers recovery + wish which still means it is a true counter. Of course, you still have crits and freezes, and it is your own fault if your clefable gets knocked off when there is a kyurem on the opposing team. You deserve to lose then. Once clef is in range of teleporting, it can teleport out into Hydreigon, Dragapult, etc. Also, if you bring in clef as an initial switch in, and have a Jirachi or Aegislash for example, after you see an ice beam, go straight to a steel type to force them out. Clef is a good "initial" switch in. If the Kyurem isnt modest, there shouldnt be much of a problem with it. If it is, go into a steel type, or a Snorlax, Rotom, etc.

The thing is that since Clef pretty much has to just Wish/Protect and hope that Kyurem doesn't freeze it, and considering that Ice Beam and Freeze-Dry both have a 10% chance to freeze, it's a very real possibility that Clef gets frozen at some point and blown through by Kyurem. Sure you could switch to an Ice-resist after switching Clef into an Ice Beam or Freeze-Dry, but then you're just letting something else get chipped and also running the risk of that getting frozen as well. Kyurem is also pretty fast and even though things like Rotom-Heat and Aegislash resist Ice Beam, they still take a lot (34.2-40.4% against 252 HP / 0 SpDef Rotom-Heat and 31.4-37.1% against 0 HP / 0 SpDef Aegislash), so they both need to have a significant amount of health to not get 2HKOed by Kyurem. Aegislash and Rotom-Heat don't have reliable forms of recovery either, so letting them get chipped hurts. You also talked about Clef Teleporting out against Kyurem, but if you do that after switching in to Kyurem, you're guaranteeing leaving your Clef at really low health, which usually isn't worth it just to force out Kyurem. The last thing that's annoying about Kyurem, and I don't think that it's considered too often, is that it has Pressure for its ability. This means that even if you can stall-out an onslaught of Ice Beams without getting frozen or crit, Clef is going to sacrifice the majority of its Wish PP in the process.

Conk should never run CC. The stat drops will allow it to get ko’d by Hippo with EQ. Drain punch is perfectly fine, getting (somewhat) reliable recovery and still hits hard with Stab+Guts boost. Facade is there to hit harder and Facade also does NOT have the negative stat drops, allowing it to beat things like Togekiss and Clef

Also, regarding what you said about Conk, I actually think that Conk should always run CC (unless maybe if you don't have Wish-Teleport Clef on your team as well). Conk is arguably the best wallbreaker in the tier, so why would you diminish his ability to break through defensive mons (notably Hippowdon) just for a little more longevity, especially when Clef can often heal him up reliably anyway? Run max attack/max speed Adamant Conk, click Knock Off a few times early on switches, and then nuke everything with CC and Facade. Clean up late or force stuff out with Mach Punch if necessary, but Conk's role is for punching holes in the opposing team, and he does so much better with CC than Drain Punch. Drain Punch obviously isn't bad and Conk is still good with it, but I can't see it being better than CC when you pair Conk with Wish-Teleport Clef.

Edit: I didn't see that McCoolDude made a post essentially saying the same exact thing while I was writing this post. I'll leave mine to show my own reasoning, but I endorse everything they said. Also I'm sorry VeryOaty89, I don't want you to feel like you're being ganged up on.

 

[Martin]

Hey, just thought I'd post about two mons that I've used sporadically recently that I think are pretty neat. Obviously they're both sorta team structure dependent, but regardless they're worth looking into if you're having difficulty with some of the nuttier wallbreakers in the format+wanna use something different for a change.

Set

Steelix @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 24 Def / 188 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Body Press
- Iron Defense / Toxic

I was looking through the list of available Ground-types and this is the only one available which can actually switch into every move Zeraora can throw at it. The one thing that always bugs me when using the (generally superior) Hippo is that certain builds, especially those that don't give it many Plasma Fists targets regardless (think stuff like Ferro+Hippo+Rotom-H balance etc.), will have a somewhat awkward (note: not hard) time trying to deal with Grass Knot Zeraora. The listed EVs guarantee that Steelix will always survive 2 Expert Belt Close Combats after 1 layer of Spikes and guarantee that Earthquake will OHKO 4 HP Zera with EQ after Stealth Rock. Beyond this, it has a very good matchup against Corviknight (both BU and Defog vars just lose to ID+BP) and it doesn't invite Excadrill in (takes just over 50% from EQ and OHKOs back with Body Press). It's just a consistent physical sponge thanks to its collossal Defense stat. Of course, the drawbacks of using this over Hippo are large—it's setup fodder for Rotom-H, so builds with this are often pigoenholed into running stuff like Gastrodon which can take it on reliably, and its weakness to Fighting opens up a huge weakness to Conkeldurr (though it's worth noting Steelix can actually survive Band Terrakion's CC from full health+KO back with Body Press, which is really fucking impressive). Additionally, it lacks reliable recovery, so you'd better have Clef and/or another Wish user on lock if you want to check Zera throught the match. There are lots of reasons to not run this frankly, but it's pulled it's weight for me.

Set

Cofagrigus @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic Spikes / Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off / Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Body Press

Another mon largely useful thanks to its collossal Defense stat. Cofag is actually a pretty interesting 'mon at the moment—it takes next to nothing from anything Zeraora can throw at it, it counters Conkeldurr thanks to Mummy (Colbur is necessary btw—as much as Helmet would otherwise be 100x better, running it or w/e else gives Conk a chance to KO with Knock Off after SR—even with Mummy), and it has plenty of utility options at its disposal to pile pressure onto more passive builds. Frankly, the fact you can run Colbur Berry on this is more than enough reason for me to think this is a better Pokemon than Cursola. You could also run Runerigus if you wanted, but keep in mind that its elec immunity+access to SR/STAB EQ come at the cost of not a having Pain Split/Knock Off and being weak to Ice+Grass+Water, which IMO is not worth it most of the time, especially given that Kyurem+Dracovish are Pokemon that exist and Zeraora often runs Grass Knot anyway. Sorta faces competition from Jellicent (takes on Dracovish etc.) as a defensive ghost, but being able to take Conk on if you switch directly into Knock Off is such a massive boone—there aren't really a whole lot of usable ghosts that are so heavily weighted towards their physical defense.

Other things that I've seen mentioned ITT/elsewhere or theorymonned that I like the sound of but haven't had the chance to use yet include:


Happy gaming!

 

[VeryOaty89]

another thing about cc conk...
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 336-396 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after burn damage

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 357-420 (92.9 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after burn damage

cc conk can defeat a bulkier conk with enough speed for clef at a 50% rate. Personally, I wouldn’t take 50% as a “good” chance, and I’m sure many other players wouldn’t either. If you would take a 50% chance go ahead, I’m not stopping you. Also, if you don’t get the ko with cc, defensive conk drains that hp that it lost back, and will ko

Sometimes I even see 252 hp conk

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 357-420 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after burn damage

this is a rare scenario, but I see some every now and then.

 

[Ruft]

another thing about cc conk...
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 336-396 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after burn damage

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 357-420 (92.9 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after burn damage

cc conk can defeat a bulkier conk with enough speed for clef at a 50% rate. Personally, I wouldn’t take 50% as a “good” chance, and I’m sure many other players wouldn’t either. If you would take a 50% chance go ahead, I’m not stopping you. Also, if you don’t get the ko with cc, defensive conk drains that hp that it lost back, and will ko

Sometimes I even see 252 hp conk

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 357-420 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after burn damage

this is a rare scenario, but I see some every now and then.

This is such an incredibly weird argument. First, how commonly does your Conkeldurr have to beat another Conkeldurr from full? Why are you bringing in a wallbreaker to deal with the same wallbreaker (that somehow has taken 0 prior chip damage despite holding a Flame Orb) rather than a revenge killer like Dragapult, Aegislash, Togekiss, etc.? Sure, it can be forced to happen but it's not like this is a common scenario. More importantly, most Conkeldurr (and honestly they all should) have 252 Speed EVs to outspeed some of the most common Pokemon in Clefable, Corviknight, and Seismitoad, missing out on these makes a bulkier spread honestly not worth using at all. This means Close Combat is better than Drain Punch in this scenario since it cleanly OHKOs other Conkeldurr (given Flame Orb activation), but according to you this is somehow an argument against Close Combat? Very puzzling to me.
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 357-420 (101.7 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[McCoolDude]

another thing about cc conk...
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 336-396 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after burn damage

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 357-420 (92.9 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after burn damage

cc conk can defeat a bulkier conk with enough speed for clef at a 50% rate. Personally, I wouldn’t take 50% as a “good” chance, and I’m sure many other players wouldn’t either. If you would take a 50% chance go ahead, I’m not stopping you. Also, if you don’t get the ko with cc, defensive conk drains that hp that it lost back, and will ko

Sometimes I even see 252 hp conk

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 357-420 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after burn damage

this is a rare scenario, but I see some every now and then.

I'm really not sure why you're on a multi-post crusade grasping at straws to justify your anti-CC conk position. Conk is rarely used to counter or even check opposing conk. Even when it is, it's usually after conk has taken several turns of burn damage and rocks, chip and sand damage. With even 6% chip damage on a max-HP conk (the bare minimum for a conk burned before the conk vs conk matchup), it's a 50% chance for speedy CC conk to OHKO opposing conk. With 12% (stealth rocks + 1 turn of burn damage), it's 87.5%. So in that rare situation where a conk vs conk would happen, CC conk wins most of the time. If the opposing conk doesn't have max HP, it wins all the time.

Dropping CC for drain punch on conk is trading raw damage output for survivability. That's fine for using conk as a tank, but conk's best set is a wallbreaking set. Without CC, conk won't break hippowdon. It doesn't 2HKO defensive corviknight. It doesn't OHKO ferrothorn.

If you desperately need conk to heal itself because you're not using Clefable, I could see making that trade. With telewish Clefable on the team, though, conk should run CC.

 

[zedhatool]

This thread is getting a little redundant (I'm a culprit in this as much as anyone), so I'd like to discuss one of the mons that became potentially viable after the arena trap ban.

Sample set

Toxtricity @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Boomburst
- Sludge Wave

Toxtricity is a powerful breaker—the ability Punk Rock boosts the power of its sound-based moves. While it has mediocre stats across the board, Choice specs allows it to hit comparatively harder, especially with a Modest nature. In the early days of the metagame, like, first few days when real sprites weren't even a thing yet, this thing was an absolute terror. Playing with it in this metagame, I can definitively say that it is not the menace it was in the early meta. However, I think this still has considerable potential. With a little bit of prediction, it can devour common Pex/Clef/Corv/Toad balances, and is a hard counter to Bulk Up Corviknight.
Toxtricity has significant drawbacks. With the release of Pokemon home, the meta has gotten faster, making it dead weight against many more offensive teams. Moreover, failing a 50/50 read can make this a huge momentum sink, accidentally clicking Volt Switch into an incoming Seismitoad instantly puts you on the back foot.
There was some discussion earlier in the thread of shift gear sets, but I maintain that a specs breaker is this mon's best set, and I think it warrants a little more discussion.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

This thread is getting a little redundant (I'm a culprit in this as much as anyone), so I'd like to discuss one of the mons that became potentially viable after the arena trap ban.

Sample set

Toxtricity @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Boomburst
- Sludge Wave

Toxtricity is a powerful breaker—the ability Punk Rock boosts the power of its sound-based moves. While it has mediocre stats across the board, Choice specs allows it to hit comparatively harder, especially with a Modest nature. In the early days of the metagame, like, first few days when real sprites weren't even a thing yet, this thing was an absolute terror. Playing with it in this metagame, I can definitively say that it is not the menace it was in the early meta. However, I think this still has considerable potential. With a little bit of prediction, it can devour common Pex/Clef/Corv/Toad balances, and is a hard counter to Bulk Up Corviknight.
Toxtricity has significant drawbacks. With the release of Pokemon home, the meta has gotten faster, making it dead weight against many more offensive teams. Moreover, failing a 50/50 read can make this a huge momentum sink, accidentally clicking Volt Switch into an incoming Seismitoad instantly puts you on the back foot.
There was some discussion earlier in the thread of shift gear sets, but I maintain that a specs breaker is this mon's best set, and I think it warrants a little more discussion.

Why is Specs superior to Life Orb? I always had success with LO over Specs on Toxtricity, especially since all its STABS(Electric, Poison and """Normal""") have immunities.
Also I don't like the idea of Modest Toxtricity getting mauled by Adamant BrokVish. But if Modest is important feel free to correct me.

Calculation Ideas between Specs and LO

- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 342-403 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 296-350 (71.4 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- - -
Both 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 324-385 (81 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 374-439 (93.5 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
- - -
Max SDef Corvi is a point for Specs Toxtricity - if you predict correctly. If Corvi is chipped even slightly it doesn't matter. If Substitute was used it doesn't matter.

- - -
252 SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Corviknight: 460-547 (115 - 136.7%)
Non-SDEF Corviknight always lose to Overdrive.

252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 354-416 (84.2 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 306-362 (72.8 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hippo with no Special Defense investment(no Set) can at full always come in both Toxtricity.

- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -

 

[ReadTheMango]

I agree, Kyurem is very difficult to change (the only pokes that change it are Sylveon and AV Snorlax), but it is stopped by Dragapult in most scenarios and it is also stopped by Sylveon in all (and I mean all) scenarios

Add Bronzong to that list my friend.

Also Goodbye & Thanks glad to hear you're feeling the G-Weezing love!

Why is Specs superior to Life Orb? I always had success with LO over Specs on Toxtricity, especially since all its STABS(Electric, Poison and """Normal""") have immunities.
Also I don't like the idea of Modest Toxtricity getting mauled by Adamant BrokVish. But if Modest is important feel free to correct me.

Your point about LO being able to switch moves is very fair, it does feel pretty bad mispredicting on specs Toxtricity, because then you're just stuck. Timid is also the recommended set on SmogDex, and is generally recommended from what I have seen. Timid Specs is nice for added wallbreaking power > LO, but I can see a valid argument for either. I would also definitely be running Timid on LO, for sure. However, in my experience, the added power you get from Modest Specs just adds up to some important potential KOs. Which is a fair tradeoff if you're like me and run 2 Vish counters on every team. I'll add them to your calc ideas list below. I like to use this set with spikes btw, because you hit a lot of OHKOs as a result.

Calculation Ideas. Modest vs Timid Specs and Timid LO

- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 376-442 (90.8 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after a spike)
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 342-403 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 296-350 (71.4 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- - -
Both 2HKO (Not Modest Specs baby)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 408-484 (102 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 324-385 (81 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 374-439 (93.5 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
- - -
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 387-456 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after a spike)
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 354-416 (84.2 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 306-362 (72.8 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hippo with no Special Defense investment can, at full, always come in on both Toxtricity. (Unless it's Modest Specs)
- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
Other Important Calcs
252+ SpA Choice Specs Toxtricity Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 360-426 (91.3 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Toxtricity Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 326-386 (82.7 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Toxtricity Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 283-338 (71.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- - -
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 374-445 (123 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 283-338 (93 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after a spike)
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 343-406 (112.8 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 265-312 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 297-355 (97.6 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 226-274 (74.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
---
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Mandibuzz: 413-486 (97.4 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Mandibuzz: 374-445 (88.2 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Mandibuzz: 328-389 (77.3 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Calcs are always a part of a vacuum etc, etc. But I feel that netting these OHKOs is a solid tradeoff for not outspeeding LORD VISH (which can be jolly or scarfed anyway and beat you).

Agreeing with zedhatool that Tox is solid in this metagame, but will always be extremely prediction reliant with a specs set (which gives me the big dopamine hit when I correctly predict).

 

[scorbunnys]

Add Bronzong to that list my friend.

Added bro!, thanks

 

[Scenic]

This thread is getting a little redundant (I'm a culprit in this as much as anyone), so I'd like to discuss one of the mons that became potentially viable after the arena trap ban.

Sample set

Toxtricity @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Boomburst
- Sludge Wave

Toxtricity is a powerful breaker—the ability Punk Rock boosts the power of its sound-based moves. While it has mediocre stats across the board, Choice specs allows it to hit comparatively harder, especially with a Modest nature. In the early days of the metagame, like, first few days when real sprites weren't even a thing yet, this thing was an absolute terror. Playing with it in this metagame, I can definitively say that it is not the menace it was in the early meta. However, I think this still has considerable potential. With a little bit of prediction, it can devour common Pex/Clef/Corv/Toad balances, and is a hard counter to Bulk Up Corviknight.
Toxtricity has significant drawbacks. With the release of Pokemon home, the meta has gotten faster, making it dead weight against many more offensive teams. Moreover, failing a 50/50 read can make this a huge momentum sink, accidentally clicking Volt Switch into an incoming Seismitoad instantly puts you on the back foot.
There was some discussion earlier in the thread of shift gear sets, but I maintain that a specs breaker is this mon's best set, and I think it warrants a little more discussion.

Honestly I just find toxtricity really hard to justify over any of the other electrics like zeraora/rheat (dracozolt is pretty decent too imo). It's prediction reliant nature weighs it down heavily and the fact that all of the moves it wants to go for have immunities make it especifically frustrating. This lends to having a more mu reliant nature I believe where it harshly punishes teams which lack/recklessly dispose of their ghost/ground or scarcely has a chance to do much. Though I do still agree that its best set is still specs bc of just how much it does when it gets the opportunity to. When it comes to modest vs timid, I feel modest doesn't really lose out on any important speed tiers other than well big vish himself.

 

[expurement]

Top 3 that make the meta unhealthy from my perspective
1. Dracovish
The metagame for balance play is like 2 men duel with sword and shield turn by turn, the shield blocks the attack and creates space for the sword to counter back
But the dracovish is like the gun, once you don't have the bulletproof you're done.
Suspect is inevitable for this broken thing in my opinion. Dracovish is truly the problem
2. King's rock Cloyster
A set since gen5 but you will know the power when removing 500+ pokemon from the game. Sometimes you just need a good rng and whole game ends. But manageable due to its fragile SpD and weaks to rocks and mach punch.
3. Zeraora
Because we have so many toad/pex, Zeraora find its place of being able to hit these 4+2 anti-dracovish included balance hard.
More and more ladder games Zeraora has the knot prepared. May not be a problem after remove the Dracovish and release the team building

 

[VeryOaty89]

I see now, cc conk is better.

 

[zedhatool]

3. Zeraora
Because we have so many toad/pex, Zeraora find its place of being able to hit these 4+2 anti-dracovish included balance hard.
More and more ladder games Zeraora has the knot prepared. May not be a problem after remove the Dracovish and release the team building

If I understand correctly, you make the claim that Dracovish's restriction on teambuilding makes Zeraora more unhealthy. I'd like to show why that isn't the case.

I don't think Zeraora will get any better after a hypothetical Dracovish ban. Right now, Zeraora must pick its coverage moves. It needs Plasma fists for STAB/beating Corviknight, bulky waters, etc; it needs Close Combat* to beat steel types like Excadrill and Ferrothorn that would wall its STAB; it wants Knock Off for Dragapult, Ghost types, and general utility; and then it must pick its last move. It can be:
- Play rough: Zeraora without Play rough is walled by Kommo-o
- Grass knot: Zeraora without grass knot is walled by Seismitoad and Hippowdon
- Bulk Up: Zeraora can boost its mediocre offenses and physical defense to sweep
- Something else: check the 1825 stats. I don't really think things like fake out or volt switch are particularly viable but I could be convinced otherwise**
If Dracovish leaves the tier, that means a drop in Seismitoad and other bulky waters. Seismitoad in particular is a huge momentum sink whose popularity is directly linked to Dracovish's pervasiveness. With one of its most important checks gone, Zeraora will be free to pick between its other coverage moves, enabling it to more consistently beat its checks. I think that Dracovish leaving the tier will only make Zeraora better, not worse.

1825 Moves Usage

Plasma Fists 97.452% | Close Combat 85.230% | Knock Off 68.461% | Grass Knot 45.237% | Play Rough 34.846% | Bulk Up 30.272% | Volt Switch 11.154% | Drain Punch 6.598% | Fake Out 3.345% | Other 17.404%

*On some sets, drain punch is used over close combat for longevity.
**I think I might be missing a coverage move, but I'm not sure.

 

[expurement]

If Dracovish leaves the tier, that means a drop in Seismitoad and other bulky waters. Seismitoad in particular is a huge momentum sink whose popularity is directly linked to Dracovish's pervasiveness. With one of its most important checks gone, Zeraora will be free to pick between its other coverage moves, enabling it to more consistently beat its checks

You haven't considered the potential usage raise up of the ground type pokemon like Rhyperior, Steelix, Sandaconda
They are smashed by Dracovish currently, but if the post dracvish-ban game has the Zeraora dominance, these ground type mons will surely come to the stage

 

[damien the genius]

You haven't considering the potential usage raise up of the ground type pokemon like Rhyperior, Steelix, Sandaconda
They are smashed by Dracovish currently, but if the post dracvish-ban game has the Zeraora dominance, these ground type mons will surely come to the stage

I feel like Steelix and Sandaconda are still very outclassed by Hippo really, not having their own recovery (unless you count shed skin rest) makes it more difficult for them to check the mons Hippo checks as easily.

In the case of a Vish ban, Toad could likely still see some use even if it drops significantly, it’s still fodder for Clef wish passing, but it’s water immunity and typing still gives it a pretty notable niche over Hippo, especially as it can check the rotom forms and block volt switching much more reliably than other grounds, even if it’ll be a lot less desirable as a pick.

 

[Scenic]

I feel like Steelix and Sandaconda are still very outclassed by Hippo really, not having their own recovery (unless you count shed skin rest) makes it more difficult for them to check the mons Hippo checks as easily.

In the case of a Vish ban, Toad could likely still see some use even if it drops significantly, it’s still fodder for Clef wish passing, but it’s water immunity and typing still gives it a pretty notable niche over Hippo, especially as it can check the rotom forms and block volt switching much more reliably than other grounds, even if it’ll be a lot less desirable as a pick.

Eh, Steelix and Sandaconda both function differently than hippowdon. With Steelix and Sandaconda both having their own means of setup due to Iron Defense for Steelix and coil for Sandaconda. For Steelix this makes for a mon that not only walls physical mons well like Hippo does, but also can strike back with its enormous defense stat piling up with ID and hit with body press. On the other hand, Sandaconda's access to glare and shed skin, makes it a tricky mon to deal with as it sets up coils, even against mons it doesnt deal well with, it just paralyzes them. Also with this wish dependent metagame, I think lacking recovery doesn't hurt these mons too much. Though an important thing to note is that all of them get 2hkod by grass knot without spdef investment though the chance is much lower for steelix(5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery).

 

[damien the genius]

Eh, Steelix and Sandaconda both function differently than hippowdon. With Steelix and Sandaconda both having their own means of setup due to Iron Defense for Steelix and coil for Sandaconda. For Steelix this makes for a mon that not only walls physical mons well like Hippo does, but also can strike back with its enormous defense stat piling up with ID and hit with body press. On the other hand, Sandaconda's access to glare and shed skin, makes it a tricky mon to deal with as it sets up coils, even against mons it doesnt deal well with, it just paralyzes them. Also with this wish dependent metagame, I think lacking recovery doesn't hurt these mons too much. Though an important thing to note is that all of them get 2hkod by grass knot without spdef investment though the chance is much lower for steelix(5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery).

I don’t disagree that these mons have cool benefits to them that can be used very occasionally but there’s a reason people are currently running Hippo as their defensive ground over them 99% of the time. Hippo’s utility and chip provided by sand is huge, and compared to Steelix, Hippo is much more capable of switching in on Conk, Exca, Cinderace and Terrakion than Steelix is and similarly does better against Terrak and Conk then Sandaconda, who also can struggle with being easier to chip into range of other threats thanks to not having it’s own recovery.

I know wishing has never been easier, but it’s still a lot more difficult to stall out chip on something like Conk when you can’t slack off the damage and don’t have the benefit of sand to increase the chip and as well as that not being reliant on Clef is still a plus in terms of staying power in general

I don’t really think that a ban on Vish will give people much reason to use either of these mons over Hippo that they don’t have already at the very least.

 

[Éric]

Nobody asked but I’m gonna give my two cents about the metagame rn.
I think there are only two Pokémon that are in need of a suspect test atm:
This thing is a nightmare. It is the single most influential Pokémon when building a team. You HAVE to use either Seismitoad (or any inferior Water Absorb for that matter) or a HO in order to not be destroyed by this thing in team preview. No, physdef Toxapex doesn’t help much.

Banded/scarf in rain

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery.
It has to be at full HP and without rocks or Black Sludge to have a chance to survive

This is without a doubt the best and most defining Pokémon of this tier. It checks half the metagame, can have multiple checks to do a billion things like set rocks up, knock things off and paralyze them, be a breaker with Life Orb or a wincondition with Calm Mind, etc. And that would be fine... but yeah it has the Wish Teleport set which is what puts it over the edge imo. It has already been touched in this thread so I’m not gonna say too much, but it’s what allows every breaker a free switch and an infinite lifespan. I really believe it is too much for OU to handle.

Then there are other Pokémon that could seem broken, like , and , but I don’t think they would pose quite the same level of threat without the help of the endless free health and switch in given to them by Clefable, and there may be counterplay not yet found/worse in this metagame with this level of teambuilding restriction (like Vileplume checking Zeraora, Dracovish, Clefable, Seismitoad and Toxapex at once, or Sylveon, which easily takes on Kyurem, Dragapult and Hydreigon but why would you not use Clef).

TL;DR: ban Clefable and Dracovish

 

[Leo]

Please remember that this is the metagame discussion thread, any inquiries or suggestions with regards to possible tests should be PMd to council members directly. Also, in general it’d be great to focus on the current metagame as opposed to theoretical future metagames should x element be removed from the tier