Resource Stall in ORAS

[Shruggy]

Im not sure how many people have read this post:
Creative and Underrated Sets: ORAS Edition (NO SHITTY GIMMICKS, Read Post #419)

But i think Curse Swampert should be added under stallbreakers as literally nothing on stall can handle this guy. His bulk is 100/110/110 and with max hp/SpD investment along with curse nothing on stall can 3hko him. He can beat all trappers, doesnt care about status and hits hard even with uninvested 150 base attack. The only things that wall him are grass mons (e.g. amoong and venu) and unaware mons, baring them he has the potential to beat a stall team on his own and when paired up with say something like lo+taunt gengar or sd talonflame they can dismantle most common stall cores with ease.

Here is the set for those who want it:

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Waterfall
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Very potent and not much you can do to prepare for it either.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Im not sure how many people have read this post:
Creative and Underrated Sets: ORAS Edition (NO SHITTY GIMMICKS, Read Post #419)

But i think Curse Swampert should be added under stallbreakers as literally nothing on stall can handle this guy. His bulk is 100/110/110 and with max hp/SpD investment along with curse nothing on stall can 3hko him. He can beat all trappers, doesnt care about status and hits hard even with uninvested 150 base attack. The only things that wall him are grass mons (e.g. amoong and venu) and unaware mons, baring them he has the potential to beat a stall team on his own and when paired up with say something like lo+taunt gengar or sd talonflame they can dismantle most common stall cores with ease.

Here is the set for those who want it:

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Waterfall
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Very potent and not much you can do to prepare for it either.

except most competent stall teams have an unaware mons or a grass type...

 

[Shruggy]

except most competent stall teams have an unaware mons or a grass type...

Considering that of the 4 stall teams displayed on the first page only 1 has a grass type im not sure thats entirely correct. Besides it can beat quagsire it will just PP stall it out but yes it can struggle slightly which is why i suggested pairing it with a more conventional partner such as gengar or talonflame.

 

[PK Bash]

Hell, that might actually make a good wincon for Stall.
You'd deal with that as you would a CroCune. You can use a Grass Type, or a (P)Hazer, or Taunt and keep it pressured with hazards, hit it hard on the unboosted defence stat and stuff like that. Team 1 may have a few issues with it but could play round it with Skarmory and Quagsire, team 2 has Taunt on Gliscor and Talonflame and an Unaware Clefable, team 3 has an easy way around it with Togekiss + Ferrothorn, and team 4 has that kickass Slowking set, as well as an encore Clefable to screw it over. That team Snow posted earlier in the thread doesn't care about it at all. (incidentally Analytic is there any reason why this team isn't on the sample team section? It looks pretty damn good to me!) Going through my own teams, I've got Suicune, Mega Latias(w/ Roar), Amoonguss, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and Clefable (not all on one team obviously) which don't have a problem with it.
Curse Mega Swampert can be dangerous to Stall, but saying there's not much you can do to prepare for it is not correct. In an actual battle scenario it won't beat a Stall team on it's own even if it is a pain. I mean I'm not entirely against it being listed somewhere as a threat but it's not a Stallbreaker and - whisper it - it's not that relevant. I personally won't worry about it much.

 

[Analytic]

KidMagic is a genius for suggesting this.

Every Monday, I will pick a pokemon that gives trouble to stall/pokemon found on stall. Players can nominate threats to the wall / walls to threat and then voting can take place for the nominees, I'll alternate between a wall and a wall/stall breaker each week. Winner will be added to HoF.

Week 1:

Kyurem-B is an excellent wall breaker and often gives bulkier teams a lot of problems. Discuss pokemon that can deal with Kyurem-B on (semi)stall teams.

 

[GnralLao]

Love that idea! Let me have the first crack at it by nominating a very cool win-con:

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 44 Def / 200 SpD
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off

Unless Kyurem-B carries HP Fire, it won't be able to 2HKO M-Scizor (even after SR!) and will simply become complete setup fodder when facing it. On M-Scizor's side, a single SD is sufficient to OHKO Kyurem-B with Bullet Punch.

Calcs

(Specially based mixed attacker)
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 110-130 (32 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(Physically based mixed attacker)
252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 44+ Def Mega Scizor: 125-148 (36.4 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

In return,
16 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 206-246 (52.6 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 16 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 414-488 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[p2]

Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off

Mega Slowbro can stand up to standard KyuB pretty well, as long as it doesn't crit though Shell Armor and as long as it doesn't run into Choice Band or Choice Specs KyuB, which are both very uncommon.

56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 112-133 (28.4 - 33.8%) -- 94.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Slowbro: 155-182 (39.4 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Slowbro: 177-209 (44.9 - 53%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[yuruuu]

unfort HP Fire Kyurem-B is getting a little too common for my liking..

granted trying to switch into Kyurem-B is limited to like Porygon2, Cresselia, Mega Slowbro...but I suppose

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell
- Toxic

beats kyurem-b without outrage.

24 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 242-285 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
24 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 200-237 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

 

[Ramses]

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Bards
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Def / 168 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Stealth Rock

Unless KyuB has HP Fire it can't 2/OHKO Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn can retaliate with a Gyro Ball which OHKOes KyuB.

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 342-404 (87.4 - 103.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 152-179 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

EDIT: I agree with Sketch Up

 

[SketchUp]

I disagree with adding a set for the nominated wall/stallbreaker. The thing that makes Kyurem-B so dangerous against stall is that it can beat nearly all its counters with coverage moves besides some fat mixed walls like Porygon2. When you add a set, I could just pick a counter for that one set (Clefable for example) but in real matches Clefable can be surprised by Iron Head or physical based sets. That being said, Kyurem-B is not extremely hard to deal with after you know its coverage moves in comparison with pokemon like Mega Heracross or Diggersby. Chansey only loses to the very uncommon physical based set, which has troubles with bulky steel types. It is not really hard to scout for its moves, but there is still a chance your Chansey gets surprised by a 252+ Fusion Bolt and has to switch out so it is left with 40% HP after Stealth Rock and that's the real danger of Kyurem-B against stall. Chansey is in my opinion the most splashable pokemon on stall to handle Kyurem-B (did I just say Chansey was splashable?) and even when your against the uncommon 252+ set, you have pokemon like max def clef with protect, mega scizor, ferrothorn and mega sableye, who are very good checks to it.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

SPD Jirachi is a decent option to take it on:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Toxic/Thunder Wave/Body Slam
- Wish
- Protect

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 190-226 (47 - 55.9%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 155-182 (38.3 - 45%)
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 192-228 (49.1 - 58.3%)

Depending on kube set can tank some hits then threaten to para flinch it and wish heal.

should we be posting sets too?

 

[Analytic]

should we be posting sets too?

Yeah that'd be nice

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

So how are stall users coping with hoopa?

I've personally been using signal beam gothitelle, while it doesn't kill:
Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 212-252 (70.4 - 83.7%) it puts hoopa in a compromising position.

 

[yuruuu]

So how are stall users coping with hoopa?

I've personally been using signal beam gothitelle, while it doesn't kill:
Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 212-252 (70.4 - 83.7%) it puts hoopa in a compromising position.

sac and pursuit trap

 

[Clair]

Im not sure how many people have read this post:
Creative and Underrated Sets: ORAS Edition (NO SHITTY GIMMICKS, Read Post #419)

But i think Curse Swampert should be added under stallbreakers as literally nothing on stall can handle this guy. His bulk is 100/110/110 and with max hp/SpD investment along with curse nothing on stall can 3hko him. He can beat all trappers, doesnt care about status and hits hard even with uninvested 150 base attack. The only things that wall him are grass mons (e.g. amoong and venu) and unaware mons, baring them he has the potential to beat a stall team on his own and when paired up with say something like lo+taunt gengar or sd talonflame they can dismantle most common stall cores with ease.

Here is the set for those who want it:

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Waterfall
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Very potent and not much you can do to prepare for it either.

Yep nothing walls this set except Skarmory, Unaware Fable, Quagsire, M-Slowbro, Suicune, Gastrodon and every Grass type ever.

Look, I made it to ~1650 recently with a CursePert stall and it's just pretty bad. Even against offense, it can't do anything until RockyChomp goes down, which is on half the ladder teams at the moment. Its damage calcs are really impressive, but the loss of Leftovers is horrible. On the defensive side of things, I would never use this over the comparable Gastrodon (Water and Scald immune, good recovery, gets Scald). Offensively, Suicune is a million times better thanks to Scald. Overall, Swampert is just a really mediocre choice for a team.

Speaking of Gastrodon, the specially defensive set is a really nice choice in this meta. You wall every standard Kyu-B set, stuff like RD Manaphy which is arguably the best stallbreaker in the meta, CM Clefable, and the obvious stuff like Electric mons.

 

[moods]

cleanerthatrotom-wash's team auto looses to mgyara (taunt and even sub) dont know if it should be a sample

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

sac and pursuit trap

Whats your pursuit trapper? scarf ttar?

 

[teamsnickers]

I dont play stall that much but just wondering what, if anything it has for hoopa u.

 

[Blazikarados]

I dont play stall that much but just wondering what, if anything it has for hoopa u.

I highly doubt stall will have anything that can switch in 100%. Between its insane stats, incredible coverage, powerful stabs, bulky teams are going to be hard to pull off and stall probably has to rely on it not having the right coverage and/or threatening it with its faster pokemon. This is why many teams have shifted to a very offensive style in the immediate aftermath of the genie's release.

 

[h20phreak]

Mandibuzz is a potential check to Hoopa-U. It only fears t-bolt and +2 focus blast while hitting back hard with foul play.

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 259-306 (85.7 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (uninvested attack for hoopa).

 

[Blazikarados]

Mandibuzz is a potential check to Hoopa-U. It only fears t-bolt and +2 focus blast while hitting back hard with foul play.

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 259-306 (85.7 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (uninvested attack for hoopa).

I'm not sure where you got the calc from-- when I was screwing around with the calc I got this (I'm using fsibapt.github.io if that matters):
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
after adjusting Hoopa's typing, base attack to 160, base def to 60, and stuff.

It's still a lot but Mandibuzz is going to have a rough time coming in on Focus Blast even when not at +2:

Hide

252+ SpA Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 164-194 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 213-252 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 213-252 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Tbolt is 1.5x stronger so that's nasty too, like you said.

Mandibuzz can definitely slow it down but it doesn't look clear-cut.

 

[Analytic]

Week 2:

Discuss pokemon that can deal with Manaphy
Manaphy is a pokemon that can run various sets to threaten stall teams. TG+Rest, TG+3 Attacks, CM+Rest, are all sets that Manaphy can run. Not to mention how good its coverage is, making it a huge threat to stall overall.

 

[Clair]

Week 2:

Discuss pokemon that can deal with Manaphy
Manaphy is a pokemon that can run various sets to threaten stall teams. TG+Rest, TG+3 Attacks, CM+Rest, are all sets that Manaphy can run. Not to mention how good its coverage is, making it a huge threat to stall overall.

Nice choice :) Anyway I've been wanting to make an anti-Manaphy resource for a while so this sounds like a good opportunity:

Universal Counters
Mons which can switch into any Manaphy set and wall it:

Technically, Unaware Clefable is an option here, as it beats even TG + RD Manaphy with heavy special defense investment (or moderate investment + Calm Mind). Running so much SDef makes it incapable of handling physical boosters, however, and is helpful against relatively few other threats (LO Kyu-B being the big one). Another reason Unaware Clefable is a poor option is the illegality of Soft-Boiled; so either your 8pp Moonlight will be stalled out by RD sets, or you run, Wish/Tect, making you shaky against RD Manaphy due to the threat of Scald burns.


Reliable Universal Checks
Basically, things which can switch in against any coverage and force out any Manaphy set more than once. The difference between these and the blanket counters is that, given the opportunity, Manaphy can eventually break through these mons; so limiting its switchin opportunities is key.

Manaphy virtually never runs max speed so base 100 Grass mons with (close to) full Speed investment work fine in practise. SDef Empoleon and Gyara can't be 2HKO'd at +3, but can only phaze Rain Dance Manaphy so another counter to that set is necessary.
There are a few random Scarfers and other things which can also fit here, such as Scarf Rotom-C or W, SDef Whimsicott and so on, but they're not especially relevant. The big one is Kyu-B, which tanks any attack at +3 and threatens to OHKO offensive sets with LO Fusion Bolt, but its vulnerability to Scald stops it reliably checking Manaphy. Lati@s should also get a mention, switching in fairly comfortably and outspeeding, but even Specs Latios has only a tiny chance to OHKO, so as Manaphy checks they're more suitable for offensive teams.


TG 3-Attacks Universal Counters

Chansey is actually somewhat underrated in this meta I feel, at least pre-Hoopa - walling the two biggest balance-breakers in Kyu-B and non-Rest Manaphy. AV Amoonguss tanks any +3 hit comfortably and can respond with Spore or Clear Smog.

As suggested by user moods, AV Tangrowth is an acceptable, but flawed, counter, considering it needs prior damage to OHKO Manaphy, and takes upwards of 70% in return.

Without HP Fire

Without Psychic

Without Energy Ball

Rain Dance Universal Counters

M-Venusaur was left off because in Rain, it can't break a +1 CM Manaphy. Seismitoad, Vaporeon and Poliwrath come with the caveat that they'll actually lose one-on-one's against the CM set via pp stall (barring the use of otherwise highly sub-optimal moves), while Celebi must run a boosting set to avoid the same fate.

Even without resorting to one of these specialised counters, any significant offensive pressure in combination with an alternative weather inducer will usually be enough to win out against RD Manaphy.

Anyway, I hope this will be helpful for some people struggling to cope with Manaphy. Let me know if there are any mons I've forgotten to mention! :)

 

[moods]

i think you could run av tangrowth tho leaf storm does max 99 and you have to recover via regen

 

[SketchUp]

TG+RD+Rest is one of the biggest threats to stall because it can boost very quickly and can recovery health+status in one turn. The lack of coverage makes pokemon like CM Slowking, Ferrothorn, CM Clefable, Mega Venusaur and Haze Mega Altaria great switchins. TG 3 Attacks has nice coverage that helps it past pokemon like Slowking and Celebi, but it still struggles with Ferrothorn, Chansey, Unaware Clefable (even with scald burns because Scald is weaker without rain) and Mega Venusaur. CM sets are easier to delay because of a lack of power and phazers and hazers like Haze Tentacruel, Roar Mega Latias and Perish Song Celebi do a great job. Gastrodon, Amoonguss, CM Slowbro and CM Unaware Clefable are good counters.
The best counter on stall teams is Unaware Clefable in my opinion, as it always wins against 2 / 3 sets (CM and TG 3 Attacks) and also does pretty well against TGRD. Mega Slowbro, Mega Latias and Mega Venusaur are also really good checks, as the former two can CM against Manaphy and only fears Energy Ball / Ice Beam and the latter only fears Psychic. They also all can stay healthy with Synthesis / Slack Off / Roost. If you're desperate you can try Gothitelle + Chansey which also gets rid of every Manaphy set.

Latias @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Refresh / Substitute
- Stored Power

Great wincon on stall that also beats Keldeo, Zard Y, Heatran, Reuniclus without Focus Blast and NP Thundurus. Not that splashable because it costs the mega slot but with an immunity to spikes and only one weakness to Manaphy's coverage moves, it is a pretty safe switchin against Manaphy.