Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!

[lordkira]

He said Avalanche, for god's sake. Learn to read the bloody post first.

In any case:

319 Atk vs 226 Def & 358 HP (120 Base Power): 244 - 288 (68.16% - 80.45%)

Which is a 16 Atk Gyarados against standard YacheChomp. Throw away the Yache and Chomp is dead, run Life Orb and Chomp is dead, run max Attack and Chomp is dead.

Running avalanche just for Garchomp? That's a waste of a slot for just one pokemon. There may be some other uses but seriously how can one argue that running avalanche over ice fang is overall more effective? Please do explain.

I think this post is starting to apply again.

Mence has no surefire "counters" only checks in the form of CB Scizor, ScarfLatias ect. yet he is not uber. He is not uber because of common battle conditions limiting his setup. I believe that Garchomp, though, has plenty of chances to set up in the given metagame and can do significant damage to an opponents team. For example, Scizor's bullet punch only does around 50% to Garchomp while it can OHKO Salamence after, which severely dents Salamence's usage, while Garchomp can fire fang back for an EASY ohko (assuming it doesn't have outrage). Garchomp also has a few more setup oppurtunities. Don't forget Garchomp has better defensive stats than Swampert, and much better resists than Mence does (including the resistance to stealth rock). This makes a garchomp sweep easy to pull off. And for the final nail in the coffin, Garchomp fits the support characteristic because of his limited checks. Garchomp requires Specs Latias / Steel types to be on your team or otherwise, he will sweep you easily. Some Garchomp sets (EM's Bulky Haban, SD Life Orb) have the potential to beat these counters (Skarm is generally SD oriented and Bronzong is 2hkod by life orb fire fang while he can not ohko garchomp back). This opens up sweeps for pokemon that enjoy these pokemon being removed... such as Salamence for example.

So that is why I now think Garchomp is Uber.

mostly agreeing with this post

 

[Atticus]

I did run calculations (libelldra), I must have entered it incorrectly as I somehow got max 93%, my apologies

 

[Mr.E]

Avalanche is slightly less bad than Ice Fang if you don't need the Speed, such as on Swampert or defensive Gyarados. It's no more "for Garchomp" than Ice Fang, Ice Punch, or Ice Beam are... unlike HP Electric, which is pretty much exclusively "for Gyarados." :/ gyarados causin' dat vaporeon overcentralization oh yeah, ban it

Not getting myself back into the Garchomp discussion too deep at the moment so I'm just going to condescendingly reply to the latest anti-Garchomp hook you people have grabbed on to. YTP, why is Garchomp the Uber one there and not Salamence if the latter is the one sweeping? Why couldn't Salamence open things up for Garchomp? What about Intimidate or Salamence's Ground immunity? You just said Garchomp requires using Steel-types to beat? Seriously? The Steels everyone is already using anyway because of "lolbulletpunch" and the fact all STAB Dragon attacks are broken as fuck? Oh yeah, Garchomp is causing some huge centralization there, it's not like Steels don't already make up half the current OU top ten in usage or anything.

 

[lordkira]

On DDGyarados who really does enjoy the speed boost from DD, I wouldn't say avalanche is very useful.

 

[Sheshi]

Running avalanche just for Garchomp? That's a waste of a slot for just one pokemon. There may be some other uses but seriously how can one argue that running avalanche over ice fang is overall more effective? Please do explain.

The fact that if you run avalanche just for one Pokemon IE Garchomp, shows its ability to overcentralize the entire game.

Mr.E, pray tell me what magic Pokemon has the ability to switch into Garchomp's STAB Outrage and pose an immediate threat. I seem to recall that once Garchomp's SD has been used that nothing can switch in.

Salamence has the intimidate ability fine. It has a ground immunity fine. Garchomp has the sand veil ability, which means it has a 20% easier time to knock its checks/counters (if they can even be called counters or checks) off. It also has a lightning immunity (much better in my opinion). The ability to avoid potential revenge kills is great for anyone. The lightning immunity is great too. Electivire and Zapdos can't use their STABS on it like they can with Salamence.

Mr.E, HP electric is not only for Gyarados. Its for Vaporeon and Suicune, any flying type Pokemon (apart from Gliscor). Its not an exclusive thing as you so put.

Mr.E, the only reason why there aren't more Dragons is because there aren't that many to begin with. You saw how much trouble they (gamefreak) had in RBY making Lance's team. Steels are very popular because of their resistances.

Throw away the Yache and Chomp is dead, run Life Orb and Chomp is dead, run max Attack and Chomp is dead.

Not running Yache Berry on Chomp completely defeats the purporse of using a Yache Berry Chomp. Also, if Garchomp has LO, it takes 10% each turn. IT takes 10 turns for Chomp to die to LO assuming that nothign attacks it, which is very likely. Give me a great team that can survive a +2LO Chomp assault and still have at least 2 Pokemon left to work with. Running max attack on Chomp? It happens anyway, so thiat last point is quite crap.

 

[RaikouLover]

The fact that if you run avalanche just for one Pokemon IE Garchomp, shows its ability to overcentralize the entire game.

Oh give me a break.. what about RestTalk Dragon Dance Gyarados? No one mentions it yet on Suspect (yeah I'm revealing my team) I run a Gyarados with Impish and 223 Speed. I Dragon Dance while Outrage locks in chomp and fails to kill me (or he can Dragon Claw for less damage). Then I just waterfall.. and +1 Waterfall is a 2HKO with a chance of Flinch omg a 20% counter!!!!! But seriously, Defensive Gyarados gives chomp a run for its money.. all you need is something faster on your team to revenge Chomp if it loses (hell, at that point, Bullet Punch from Scizor is a KO). Seriously, why don't you guys TRY to counter it before labeling it "uncounterable" :-/

 

[deluge]

Mr.E, HP electric is not only for Gyarados. Its for Vaporeon and Suicune, any flying type Pokemon (apart from Gliscor). Its not an exclusive thing as you so put.

It's mainly for Gyarados.

HP Electric does less than 50% damage to opposing Vaporeon who can always wish it away.
Offensive Calm mind variants of Suicune aren't too bothered by HP Electric and they often carry it themselves to hit fellow water types.
Mono attacking Suicune will probably have to switch with or without HP Electric as it is walled by Vaporeon.

Anyway, HP Electric can hit those water types but it is not enough to warrant giving up Ice Beam's higher base power and superior coverage (Grass, Dragon, FLYING *wink, wink*, including Gliscor for 4x) if it were not for Gyarados.
Against Vaporeon and Suicune you just switch to appropriate counters; their threat is not so immediate.

However, Vaporeon can hit Gyarados for essentially 280 Base Power while being immune to its STAB and not being hit SE by most things it carries.
It doesn't make sense for much else than Gyarados so I think Mr. E's point stands: there is precedent for running moves to combat specific threats.

Notice no one even tried to argue that he was not right about this before.

 

[Delta 2777]

For the whole "Avalanche just for Garchomp over Ice Fang is overcentralizing!!" hype, I personally think that Avalanche is better than Ice Fang 99% of the time; 5 more accuracy in exchange for 5 base power, and does double the damage when you use it on a switch/get outsped.

Anyway, I thought I'd list a few pokemon who generally do well against Garchomp in general, just to show how easy it is to make a "chomp-proof" team.

Pokemon who do well against Garchomp 1 on 1 (Not switching in).
A * will be listed next to the pokemon's name if it needs to resort to HP [Ice].

Abomasnow
Celebi
Cloyster
Froslass
Skarmory
Bronzong
Infernape*
Zapdos*
Shaymin
Manaphy
Suicune
Vaporeon
Swampert
Starmie
Latias
Rotom-A
Cresselia
Dusknoir
Gyarados
Donphan
Forretress
Gengar*
Steelix
Hippowdon
Machamp
Mamoswine
Weavile
Walrein
Scizor
Raikou*
Total: 29

And I didn't even count Delibird.
In addition to all these, have you ever heard of lures? There are plenty of pokemon that, with the proper type-resist berry, can retaliate against Garchomp for the surprise KO. Garchomp isn't the only poke that can hold a Yache/Haban berry.

Shuca Metagross
Haban Salamence
Shuca Jirachi
Haban Dragonite
Shuca Mawile
Shuca Tyranitar
Shuca Electivire*
Shuca Empoleon
Shuca Omastar
Shuca Lucario
Haban Kingdra
Total: 10

And then, of course, you have the things that will also beat Garchomp if you just so happen to have a pokemon out that doesn't like Garchomp much.

Prediction
A revenge killer

...

Now, obviously, you probably won't have 6/6 pokemon beating Garchomp 100% of the time, and with proper support, he will be sweeping teams. Here's the thing: that's normal. He's a pokemon with access to swords dance, but in all honesty pretty much all pokemon with access to Swords Dance (even Skarmory) can sweep. What I'm trying to say is that Garchomp isn't something that you can easilly eliminat effortlessly, but its not something that will be constantly sweeping teams, unless you are not prepared for it at all.

Also, a few points that I'd like to make;
1) If Flygon was on 80% of all teams, I'd bet the game would end quite often with a Flygon speed tie.
2) Sand Veil is simply an ability that helps Garchomp avoid a hit 20% of the time. Now, I know, this can be annoying (it has even infuriated me very often, Scizor's Bullet Punch missing followed by my own Garchomp's Outrage missing), but if this one ability is such a defining factor in Garchomp's "Uberness," then I feel the need the need to nominate Gliscor and Cacturne for Ubers.



Edit: So I'm coming under fire for what I said about Sand Veil on Garchomp, I'm not entirelly sure why, I was just trying to make a point. SD Gliscor and SD Cacturne do play differently from Garchomp, but they benefit from it equally as much. If you've ever faced a SubBaton Pass boosting Gliscor in sand you would know.

also,

Mr.E, pray tell me what magic Pokemon has the ability to switch into Garchomp's STAB Outrage and pose an immediate threat. I seem to recall that once Garchomp's SD has been used that nothing can switch in.

First of all, I don't see why you would EVER need to switch something into a +2 Garchomp's Outrage. Anyway, two things off of the top of my head. Mawile with Ice Punch and Sucker Punch. A FUCKING MAWILE. Also Aggron with Ice Punch.

 

[Tangerine]

Next person who brings up "overcentralizing" as an argument without solid backup on why the "overcentralizing" is bad (apply it to characteristics of uber, for example) will be infracted. Seriously, let's go somewhere with these discussions.

 

[mudkip72]

2) Sand Veil is simply an ability that helps Garchomp avoid a hit 20% of the time. Now, I know, this can be annoying (it has even infuriated me very often, Scizor's Bullet Punch missing followed by my own Garchomp's Outrage missing), but if this one ability is such a defining factor in Garchomp's "Uberness," then I feel the need the need to nominate Gliscor and Cacturne for Ubers.

But Sand Veil is not the reason for Chomp's uberness. Sand Veil is just the icing on the cake that allows for another advantage over other pokemon, and Gliscor and Cacturne's stats and typing just don't compare to Garchomp.

And on Ice Fang/Avalanche, its preference, I'd use Ice Fang just because of the power boost and Flinch/Freeze chance (but personally I use Stone Edge instead on Gyarados instead of an Ice move...).

 

[Mr.E]

DD Gyarados obviously wouldn't be using Avalanche. However, it's also using Ice Fang because of Celebi and Breloom as much or even more than because of Garchomp.

Mr.E, pray tell me what magic Pokemon has the ability to switch into Garchomp's STAB Outrage and pose an immediate threat. I seem to recall that once Garchomp's SD has been used that nothing can switch in.

The obvious answer is "Steel pokémon." Who can switch into Salamence and Dragonite and Kingdra's Outrages? Those same Steels. Which pokémon have a higher Special Attack to better deal with those primarily physically bulky Steels? Salamence and Dragonite and Kingdra. And then there's Latias...

Salamence has the intimidate ability fine. It has a ground immunity fine. Garchomp has the sand veil ability, which means it has a 20% easier time to knock its checks/counters (if they can even be called counters or checks) off. It also has a lightning immunity (much better in my opinion). The ability to avoid potential revenge kills is great for anyone. The lightning immunity is great too. Electivire and Zapdos can't use their STABS on it like they can with Salamence.

Cool, thanks for proving my point. I would actually admit that Garchomp has a better overall set of resists but you can't dismiss what Salamence has because they're different. Ground immunity is as huge as its Rock weakness. Fighting resist and a 4x Grass resistance are pretty nifty, as is its Water resist, all of which Garchomp lack. Toxic Spikes doesn't hit it so, while it may consistently get worn down by SR most every battle, it's also not completely neutered when the opponent uses this less common entry hazard, making Salamence more consistently successful.

Mr.E, HP electric is not only for Gyarados. Its for Vaporeon and Suicune, any flying type Pokemon (apart from Gliscor). Its not an exclusive thing as you so put.

Neutral Surf is stronger than 2x HP Electric. Ice Beam hits most every other Flyer harder, except Gyarados, and also hits those other types which resist Water. (Dragon, Grass) HP Electric isn't doing jack shit to another bulky Water pokémon, the only other thing it could even be remotely useful against is Starmie. Solely for Gyarados.

Sand Veil is simply an ability that helps Garchomp avoid a hit 20% of the time. Now, I know, this can be annoying (it has even infuriated me very often, Scizor's Bullet Punch missing followed by my own Garchomp's Outrage missing), but if this one ability is such a defining factor in Garchomp's "Uberness," then I feel the need the need to nominate Gliscor and Cacturne for Ubers.

If anything, you should be nominating Tyranitar and Hippowdon because of Sand Stream. In the land where Hail blows and the other weather pokémon are banned, Sand Stream is fucking retarded. This ability is far more "overcentralizing" than any actual pokémon could ever be and it's also the only reason Sand Veil isn't as useless as Keen Eye or Sturdy in our standard metagame. Tyranitar itself is pretty overpowered anyway, since its ability combined with Sandstorm's buff to Rocks in DPP essentially gives it uber-level base stats, it "guarantees" kills in a way that Salamence or Garchomp can't even do (trapping), and it has as much versatility as anything... but sorry Hippowdon, shoulda had a different ability. ;(

IT takes 10 turns for Chomp to die to LO assuming that nothign attacks it, which is very likely.

...

 

[Sheshi]

The obvious answer is "Steel pokémon." Who can switch into Salamence and Dragonite and Kingdra's Outrages? Those same Steels. Which pokémon have a higher Special Attack to better deal with those primarily physically bulky Steels? Salamence and Dragonite and Kingdra. And then there's Latias...

But which of the Dragons (bar Chomp) can double their attack in one turn? Chomp doesn't need speed as much as the others since he is 2 base points higher than all base 100 speed pokemon.

Also as an aside, I never said Avalance over Ice Fang. I did however, say that if you used Avalance for just one Pokemon, then that would be leading towards overcentralizing.

Cool, thanks for proving my point. I would actually admit that Garchomp has a better overall set of resists but you can't dismiss what Salamence has because they're different. Ground immunity is as huge as its Rock weakness. Fighting resist and a 4x Grass resistance are pretty nifty, as is its Water resist, all of which Garchomp lack. Toxic Spikes doesn't hit it so, while it may consistently get worn down by SR most every battle, it's also not completely neutered when the opponent uses this less common entry hazard, making Salamence more consistently successful.

Pray explain why Salamence dropped in usage from no.2 to no.6. If Garchomp was OU, it would be number one, scizor 2 etc. Salamence has not been consistently more succesful because of Stealth Rock. If SR is up, Mence loses 25% of its HP. In gravity, it has the chance of losing a further 25% HP to spikes and becomes poisoned. Then it has to worry about Sandstorm on top of that. Garchomp loses at most 37% to entry hazards, is poisoned and gains an evasion boost from Standstorm.

Neutral Surf is stronger than 2x HP Electric. Ice Beam hits most every other Flyer harder, except Gyarados, and also hits those other types which resist Water. (Dragon, Grass) HP Electric isn't doing jack shit to another bulky Water pokémon, the only other thing it could even be remotely useful against is Starmie. Solely for Gyarados.

I am saying that HP Electric doesn't HAVE to be used soley for Gyarados. It does have applications beyond the narrow Gyarados view.

If anything, you should be nominating Tyranitar and Hippowdon because of Sand Stream. In the land where Hail blows and the other weather pokémon are banned, Sand Stream is fucking retarded. This ability is far more "overcentralizing" than any actual pokémon could ever be and it's also the only reason Sand Veil isn't as useless as Keen Eye or Sturdy in our standard metagame. Tyranitar itself is pretty overpowered anyway, since its ability combined with Sandstorm's buff to Rocks in DPP essentially gives it uber-level base stats, it "guarantees" kills in a way that Salamence or Garchomp can't even do (trapping), and it has as much versatility as anything... but sorry Hippowdon, shoulda had a different ability. ;(

Sand Stream has no effect on steel types, rocks and ground pokemon. So, please explain how exactly this 'overcentralizing' Sandstorm works. Tyranitar normally has max attack and speed. It rarely invests in SPD. Since a standard DDtar has no SPD EV's then Focus Blast from Gengar can OHKO it. So much for raising it to uber-level stats. T-Tar does not guarantee kills like Garchomp can. T-Tar is countered easily by Scizor. But as an aside, all pseudo-legendary Pokemon have very large movepools.

 

[shrang]

| Manaphy | Item | Leftovers | 68.2 |
| Manaphy | Item | Life Orb | 13.7 |
| Manaphy | Item | Other (4) | < 5.1 |

Hm, not many people using ScarfManaphy?? It's actually quite effective, Surf/Ice Beam/HP Electric/U-Turn checks heaps of threats pretty nicely, namely Gyara, non-CM Manaphy, HabanChomp (Can use another check for YacheChomp, like ScarfChomp). You can U-Turn out if need be, and unlike similar revenge killers like Starmie, Manaphy is not weak to Pursuit and is very bulky.

 

[Azule]

Hm, not many people using ScarfManaphy?? It's actually quite effective, Surf/Ice Beam/HP Electric/U-Turn checks heaps of threats pretty nicely, namely Gyara, non-CM Manaphy, HabanChomp (Can use another check for YacheChomp, like ScarfChomp). You can U-Turn out if need be, and unlike similar revenge killers like Starmie, Manaphy is not weak to Pursuit and is very bulky.

I've tried Scarf Manaphy on one of my teams, it served a similar role to Starmie, yet lost a little coverage for a bit more staying power and doesn't get crushed by Ttar's pursuit. It netted a few kills simply because of the surprise factor over anything, people don't count of Manaphy out speeding their NonScarf Garchomps and Gyardos.
It's not as beastly as the Sub-Tail Glow set though, in my view. CM set can be outdone by Suicune if not done under rain, but +4 is really easy to get with it's bulk, and +4 Surf's really start to hurt.

Latias isnt a bother to me, it's been OU for a while, and fits there. Garchomp gets checked by my team, so whilst it can net one or two kills per match, once I know what item it has, I can counter/check it easily.

 

[Mr.E]

Oh, there's another pokémon looking to counter Gyarados: Manaphy! HP Electric? Manaphy actually learns Energy Ball and Grass Knot! Sure, Energy Ball hurts other Manaphy more, Starmie, Vaporeon, nearly OHKOs Swampert but no, we have to get Gyarados! Man, it sounds like that dreaded overcentalization again! We better ban Gyarados before it destroys OU as we know it!

...

But which of the Dragons (bar Chomp) can double their attack in one turn? Chomp doesn't need speed as much as the others since he is 2 base points higher than all base 100 speed pokemon.

Pray tell what that extra two base Speed allows it to outspeed that Salamence does not. Wait, I already did that many times in the past couple months. The answer is ...other Salamence and Garchomp. Basically, all you're doing is asserting that Swords Dance is better than Dragon Dance, which has been repeatedly shown to be misleading and incorrect. DDMence/Dragonite can't be revenged by Latias or Starmie and Kingdra can beat even fast Scarf users under rain. (Scarf Gengar, Scarf Flygon, Scarfchomp... *cough*) How can you possibly sit there and assert that Garchomp's extra base Speed makes such a huge difference (even though it doesn't) and then turn around and claim the Speed boost provided by Dragon Dance is worthless?

Pray explain why Salamence dropped in usage from no.2 to no.6. If Garchomp was OU, it would be number one, scizor 2 etc. Salamence has not been consistently more succesful because of Stealth Rock.

I'm not saying that Salamence is consistent because of SR, I'm saying it's consistent despite SR. People can generally expect it to take 25% upon switching in. Despite limited opportunities, it still wrecks house and consistently kills 1-2 pokémon a match. Where Garchomp doesn't see this kind of residual damage as often, it's also completely ruined by TSpikes. So maybe the 10% of opponents you see using TSpikes, Garchomp is nearly worthless in those battles... and Gravity, seriously?

Sand Stream has no effect on steel types, rocks and ground pokemon. So, please explain how exactly this 'overcentralizing' Sandstorm works.

Sand Stream forces people to use more Rock, Steel, and Ground type pokémon, duh? As if Steels aren't already overused enough as it is because STAB Dragon attacks are overpowered and they're the only type to resist those too. ;/ Sand Stream also makes Focus Sash non-viable on non-R/S/G pokémon and makes the weather-based recovery moves unusable in OU, which hurts Cresselia in particular very badly.

Tyranitar normally has max attack and speed. It rarely invests in SPD.

That was my point. Not many people use T-Tar as a special tank of sorts, so it's not usually actually equipped to "counter" Latias as many people claim it always does.

T-Tar does not guarantee kills like Garchomp can.

You're right, it doesn't, because T-Tar actually guarantees kills. With Pursuit, it is guaranteed to kill susceptible targets. Magnezone and Dugtrio do the same thing, as do other Pursuit users. Garchomp isn't actually guaranteed to kill anything, it's just very likely to do so because it's pretty fast and strong with great type coverage (lol STAB Dragon).

 

[Avira]

If SR is up, Mence loses 25% of its HP. In gravity, it has the chance of losing a further 25% HP to spikes and becomes poisoned. Then it has to worry about Sandstorm on top of that. Garchomp loses at most 37% to entry hazards, is poisoned and gains an evasion boost from Standstorm.

Gravity 0.01%
...

 

[deluge]

I really don't see the Salamence vs Garchomp arguement going anywhere to helping us anywhere to see if Garchomp is Uber. For example, if there was a pokemon exacterly like Rayquaza, but had 1 less base stat in everything, it would still be uber. It would just be outclassed by rayquaza, and never used. (also Flygon, who is mostly outclassed by Salamence, is still OU, but just underused compared to Salamence.) Salamence and Garchomp are too different to compare like that, and even if they were similar, it doesn't help the arguement.

I mostly don't disagree with this and would rather avoid the Salamence comparisons myself.
However, when people say that Garchomp is Uber because nothing can switch into a +2 SDChomp (3 attacks) without risk and OHKO every time
it really begs the question of what can switch into +1, +1 DD Salamence without risk and whether it is Uber by the same measure.
So I think comparing with other Pokemon can sometimes be a kind of touchstone for the validity of certain claims.
But I do agree that any simplistic comparison of different Pokemon is not a firm basis for a decision on Uber status and can lead to absurdities.

Also I agree with RaikouLover, in theorymon Garchomp looks quite tough, "only" taking 6.25% from SR, 50% from scizor's BP with no Def evs, unresisted coverage, etc... But when you actually play matches, and prediction, double switching, random attacks build up, Garchomp isn't as uber as it would seem with pure theorymon. In fact from what I've seen, people play Garchomp too aggressively because ""it only takes 6.25% from SR and blah blah blah"". Garchomp is counterable.

I agree.
His moves all let in something and he dislikes intimidate.
In real play, he is a bit more vulnerable than he appears on paper.

 

[BaldWombat]

Real quick for those of you talking about Avalanche for Gyrados. In-Game, Avalanche is a negative priority move and only doubles in power when you are hit with an attack. It does not work like Payback does which doubles in power when you move last, which includes your opponent switching. I've never tried it on Shoddy to see if the mechanics are right or not. All of that being said, it would really only work on a defensive based Gyra which prolly has better moves to use anyways.

 

[Force Majeure]

In addition to what RaikouLover and deluge pointed out, I would also like to add that Garchomp is vulnerable to Spikes and Toxic Spikes in ways that many other OU pokemon (scizor, mence, gyara, latias, metagross, flygon) are not.

 

[lordkira]

@Llewellyn: I agree to what you said for the most part. I have never liked comparing Garchomp and Mence as the "same" category of pokemon. (even Flygon, he's more of a scout than Garchomp and a very good one at that). While it is also true that Garchomp shouldn't be TOO aggresively abused (going in and out such as the playstyle of bulky offense), I have been seeing a lot of teams going back to the old ways of DP and using balanced team with Garchomp as the physical sweeper or as a finisher in other teams. Garchomp with the power it has (obviously it is extremely powerful esp after SD), it can do a lot of damage in the endgame and I am sure most people will agree to that regardless of their standpoint towards Garchomp's standing in the tiers. He seemed a lot more UBER before Latias was in OU but with her Garchomp's effectiveness has decreased I feel like (Scizor as well but I personally see Latias as the check for Garchomp at this point). While that being true, I am leaning towards Garchomp being UBER at this point (my reasons have been stated in the much earlier posts of the threads and I agree with some of the arguments for Garchomp to be in UBER in the earlier posts as well).

In addition to what RaikouLover and deluge pointed out, I would also like to add that Garchomp is vulnerable to Spikes and Toxic Spikes in ways that many other OU pokemon (scizor, mence, gyara, latias, metagross, flygon) are not.

While this statement of Garchomp's vulnerability to spikes and tspikes is true, I don't find this too troublesome against Garchomp. I don't find tspikes and spikes too worrisome as they aren't as effective as SR. SR, whether it is super effective against one or not, hits all and the other two do not.

 

[Elevator Music]

The arguments are really getting bad again

Toxic Spikes doesn't hit it so, while it may consistently get worn down by SR most every battle, it's also not completely neutered when the opponent uses this less common entry hazard, making Salamence more consistently successful.

So basically because Garchomp is hit by the "less common" entry hazard while Salamence is hit by the most common entry hazard, Salamence is more consistently successful? What? And why is Garchomp is losing 12% a turn from the 6% of teams that run TSpikes (its a bit closer to 6 than 10, although I'm not that good at calculating) compared to DDMence who is ALWAYS losing 10% every time it attacks on top of SS which is -much- more common than TSpikes, and "SR".

Pray tell what that extra two base Speed allows it to outspeed that Salamence does not. Wait, I already did that many times in the past couple months. The answer is ...other Salamence and Garchomp. Basically, all you're doing is asserting that Swords Dance is better than Dragon Dance, which has been repeatedly shown to be misleading and incorrect. DDMence/Dragonite can't be revenged by Latias or Starmie and Kingdra can beat even fast Scarf users under rain. (Scarf Gengar, Scarf Flygon, Scarfchomp... *cough*) How can you possibly sit there and assert that Garchomp's extra base Speed makes such a huge difference (even though it doesn't) and then turn around and claim the Speed boost provided by Dragon Dance is worthless?

Its useless because they don't get the +2 that really fucks everything over. Because... shit can actually survive a +1 LO Salamence... and even if it can't you're trading the ability not to get revenge killed by Latias/Starmie etc by the ability to be worn down easily by SR and SS. And yeah, that actually matters. Not to mention that Kingdra's sweep is a lot easier to end if you aren't a stupid player (and it has lots of counters, most certainly more than Garchomp or Salamence).

Anyways Mr.E, I have no problem with your adamant support of Garchomp being OU, but statements like:

Oh, there's another pokémon looking to counter Gyarados: Manaphy! HP Electric? Manaphy actually learns Energy Ball and Grass Knot! Sure, Energy Ball hurts other Manaphy more, Starmie, Vaporeon, nearly OHKOs Swampert but no, we have to get Gyarados! Man, it sounds like that dreaded overcentalization again! We better ban Gyarados before it destroys OU as we know it!

really don't help your case I think. I think this is something Tangerine would call a strawman, but I'm really not experienced in arguing, nor am I good with semantics, but clearly you're just trying to provoke some negative response. I'm not even sure if you're being sarcastic with the message behind your comment (although I assume you are since obviously people would run HP [Elec] as it still buttfucks the pokemon that you mentioned after a TG or two anyways except for Swampert who is hit plenty hard by Surf. Obviously the ability to hurt Gyarados is worth more than nabbing a quick OHKO on Swampert(/etc) to most teams since Gyarados can fucking wreck them while Swampert can't).

I am saying that HP Electric doesn't HAVE to be used soley for Gyarados. It does have applications beyond the narrow Gyarados view.

HP [Elec] on Vaporeon is primarily and almost solely for Gyarados. There should be no arguing of this. It's pretty much like arguing that HP [Fire] on Celebi has other uses besides hitting Scizor 'because it helps against Lucario'.

I'm leaning very much towards Garchomp being Uber at this point, but statements like

Salamence has the intimidate ability fine. It has a ground immunity fine. Garchomp has the sand veil ability, which means it has a 20% easier time to knock its checks/counters (if they can even be called counters or checks) off. It also has a lightning immunity (much better in my opinion). The ability to avoid potential revenge kills is great for anyone. The lightning immunity is great too. Electivire and Zapdos can't use their STABS on it like they can with Salamence.

are kind of dumb and I don't want the Garchomp->Uber argument to be made up of a bunch of silly statements. A Ground-immunity is much better than an Electric-immunity... because EQ is the most common move in the game (among other miscellaneous reasons).

Though I'm going to try and stay out of this whole Avalanche/Ice Fang and HP [Elec] thing anyways.

In addition to what RaikouLover and deluge pointed out, I would also like to add that Garchomp is vulnerable to Spikes and Toxic Spikes in ways that many other OU pokemon (scizor, mence, gyara, latias, metagross, flygon) are not.

If anything isn't this a good thing? If many other OU pokemon are immune Toxic Spikes/Spikes, there is much less of a reason to use them (other than primarily for Garchomp... and if doing so is a waste against other OU pokemon then it shouldn't be worth it!). I would never user Spikes/Toxic Spikes just for one pokemon if it means I compromise my ability to deal with other OU threats. Granted, you can still use SR, but you are still wasting a moveslot for otherwise unnecessary entry hazards.

While this statement of Garchomp's vulnerability to spikes and tspikes is true, I don't find this too troublesome against Garchomp. I don't find tspikes and spikes too worrisome as they aren't as effective as SR. SR, whether it is super effective against one or not, hits all and the other two do not.

While I agree with you (clearly), your opinion isnt a valid argument. Just because 'you' don't find [toxic] spikes worrisome doesn't mean the rest of the competitive battling community does not. It would be better to state how Spikes and toxic Spikes aren't as widespread nor as effective as SR (which you did briefly touch on, but only _briefly_).



Anyways, I hate this topic so don't expect to get into a quote war with me (especially not the people I want to agree with!)

 

[lordkira]

I was thinking about explaining it further but then I realized there is a spikes/tspikes thread already and people can go look into that I feel like. And yeah I haven't really posted anything too much in detail for a while. I just want to see the voting process go on now. I was talking to my Japanese friends for a while (yep in Japan at the moment and have been for a while now will stay until my senior year) and they were actaully interested in this result as well. lol

On the side note, I'd like to start the discussion on Manaphy.
While it would be great to have the rain support (more like freaking awesome), I found out that rain support is often ripped apart by (esp) SS effects -_-----------;
Still I have found TGManaphy with HP-electric or energy quite useful.
Latias is freaking annoying though I have to say.

 

[deluge]

The arguments are really getting bad again

Its useless because they don't get the +2 that really fucks everything over. Because... shit can actually survive a +1 LO Salamence... and even if it can't you're trading the ability not to get revenge killed by Latias/Starmie etc by the ability to be worn down easily by SR and SS. And yeah, that actually matters.

That's not what the damage calcs I ran say, unless I'm thoroughly mistaken:

394Atk Garchomp (Adamant with 252 EVs) at +2 Outrage versus 252HP/252Def Relaxed Swampert = 89.11% avg damage, 58.97% chance to OHKO with SR

400Atk Salamence (Naughty with 232 EVs) and +1 LO Outrage versus 252HP/252Def Relaxed Swampert = 87.87% avg damage = 53.85% chance to OHKO with SR

This is obviously not a huge difference in damage output and one of the above is running about with 448 Speed.
A speed stat of 394 is the max for base 130s so good luck revenging w/o base 100+ scarfers or priority. :)

BTW, if Salamence had run max attack the damage percentage would be *exactly* the same as Garchomp - providential eh?
However, sparing a few EVs for SpA allows it to do the below:

394Atk Garchomp (Adamant with 252 EVs) at +2 Fire Fang versus 252HP/252Def Impish Skarmory = 57.49% avg = 2HKO
[Garchomp's Fire Blast also 2HKOs due to its lower SpA]

262SpA Salamence (Naughty with 24 EVs) at +0 LO Fire Blast versus 252HP/252SpD Impish Skarmory = 108.38% avg = 100% chance to OHKO

[Standard SalaBoost uses LO and standard GarBoost uses TR berry so the calcs are as shown.]

I think the confident but incorrect assumption that Garchomp's boosting set is significantly more powerful than Salamence's reveals more about how strong the Garchomp *myth* is than how much it needs to be Uber.

Obviously, they are different Pokemon and have to be dealt with somewhat differently but what they present in terms or raw offense is similar.

DDMence hits just about as hard as SDChomp and has fewer, even moderate, switchins due to defensive Skarmory being OHKOed and fewer revenge killers due to DDs speed boost. OTOH, Salamence is a bit more frail which is the usual trade-off in the Pokemon world.

So we say Sala and Chomp are different and shouldn't be compared but how can one ignore the blatant and inconsistent difference in *PERCEPTION* that seems stubbornly unscathed by FACT?

 

[Elevator Music]

Except the difference is that if I switch my Swampert into Salamence while it DD's, I can actually OHKO it next turn with Ice Beam. I can't do that to Garchomp (well I suppose I can crit but even then its a moot point as if its running Yache I still cannot). Even 0 SpAtk Swampert has a 15% chance of OHKOing Salamence (obviously with SR/LO/SS makes this even higher). That's the difference, that to get the power that Garchomp has at +2, Salamence has to further decrease its already lacking longevity.

I should have clarified that, my bad. Either way though, I think the point that Salamence doesn't have to worry about Skarmory is a good one (although it worries slightly more about Bronzong, if any pokemon can actually do that... and a bit of emphasis on slightly)

 

[lordkira]

Even with DD/SD, they won't be 1HKOing Pert (I will assume it is the mixed variant). Thus, it will 1HKO back. Also, even WITHOUT yache Garchomp (standard SD set) isn't OHKO'd by the standard MixPert's ice beam while the standard DDMence is always OHKO'd by it after SR.

Swampert's Ice Beam to Garchomp: 206 Atk vs 206 Def & 358 HP (95 Base Power): 272 - 324 (75.98% - 90.50%)

Swampert's Ice Beam to Salamence: 206 Atk vs 196 Def & 331 HP (95 Base Power): 288 - 340 (87.01% - 102.72%)

That's not what the damage calcs I ran say, unless I'm thoroughly mistaken:

BTW, if Salamence had run max attack the damage percentage would be *exactly* the same as Garchomp - providential eh?
However, sparing a few EVs for SpA allows it to do the below:

394Atk Garchomp (Adamant with 252 EVs) at +2 Fire Fang versus 252HP/252Def Impish Skarmory = 57.49% avg = 2HKO
[Garchomp's Fire Blast also 2HKOs due to its lower SpA]

262SpA Salamence (Naughty with 24 EVs) at +0 LO Fire Blast versus 252HP/252SpD Impish Skarmory = 108.38% avg = 100% chance to OHKO

I don't see the Skarmory example TOO appealing to the discussion of Garchomp's tier standing when Skarmory can't really do anything to the either pokemons (whirlwind yes but nothing else).