The arguments are really getting bad again
Mr.E said:
Toxic Spikes doesn't hit it so, while it may consistently get worn down by SR most every battle, it's also not completely neutered when the opponent uses this less common entry hazard, making Salamence more consistently successful.
So basically because Garchomp is hit by the "less common" entry hazard while Salamence is hit by the most common entry hazard, Salamence is more consistently successful? What? And why is Garchomp is losing 12% a turn from the 6% of teams that run TSpikes (its a bit closer to 6 than 10, although I'm not that good at calculating) compared to DDMence who is ALWAYS losing 10% every time it attacks on top of SS which is -much- more common than TSpikes, and "SR".
Pray tell what that extra two base Speed allows it to outspeed that Salamence does not. Wait, I already did that many times in the past couple months. The answer is ...other Salamence and Garchomp. Basically, all you're doing is asserting that Swords Dance is better than Dragon Dance, which has been repeatedly shown to be misleading and incorrect. DDMence/Dragonite can't be revenged by Latias or Starmie and Kingdra can beat even fast Scarf users under rain. (Scarf Gengar, Scarf Flygon, Scarfchomp... *cough*) How can you possibly sit there and assert that Garchomp's extra base Speed makes such a huge difference (even though it doesn't) and then turn around and claim the Speed boost provided by Dragon Dance is worthless?
Its useless because they don't get the +2 that really fucks everything over. Because... shit can actually survive a +1 LO Salamence... and even if it can't you're trading the ability not to get revenge killed by Latias/Starmie etc by the ability to be worn down easily by SR and SS. And yeah, that actually matters. Not to mention that Kingdra's sweep is a lot easier to end if you aren't a stupid player (and it has lots of counters, most certainly more than Garchomp or Salamence).
Anyways Mr.E, I have no problem with your adamant support of Garchomp being OU, but statements like:
Oh, there's another pokémon looking to counter Gyarados: Manaphy! HP Electric? Manaphy actually learns Energy Ball and Grass Knot! Sure, Energy Ball hurts other Manaphy more, Starmie, Vaporeon, nearly OHKOs Swampert but no, we have to get Gyarados! Man, it sounds like that dreaded overcentalization again! We better ban Gyarados before it destroys OU as we know it!
really don't help your case I think. I think this is something Tangerine would call a strawman, but I'm really not experienced in arguing, nor am I good with semantics, but clearly you're just trying to provoke some negative response. I'm not even sure if you're being sarcastic with the message behind your comment (although I assume you are since obviously people would run HP [Elec] as it still buttfucks the pokemon that you mentioned after a TG or two anyways except for Swampert who is hit plenty hard by Surf. Obviously the ability to hurt Gyarados is worth more than nabbing a quick OHKO on Swampert(/etc) to most teams since Gyarados can fucking wreck them while Swampert can't).
Sheshi said:
I am saying that HP Electric doesn't HAVE to be used soley for Gyarados. It does have applications beyond the narrow Gyarados view.
HP [Elec] on Vaporeon is primarily and almost solely for Gyarados. There should be no arguing of this. It's pretty much like arguing that HP [Fire] on Celebi has other uses besides hitting Scizor 'because it helps against Lucario'.
I'm leaning very much towards Garchomp being Uber at this point, but statements like
Salamence has the intimidate ability fine. It has a ground immunity fine. Garchomp has the sand veil ability, which means it has a 20% easier time to knock its checks/counters (if they can even be called counters or checks) off. It also has a lightning immunity (much better in my opinion). The ability to avoid potential revenge kills is great for anyone. The lightning immunity is great too. Electivire and Zapdos can't use their STABS on it like they can with Salamence.
are kind of dumb and I don't want the Garchomp->Uber argument to be made up of a bunch of silly statements. A Ground-immunity is much better than an Electric-immunity... because EQ is the most common move in the game (among other miscellaneous reasons).
Though I'm going to try and stay out of this whole Avalanche/Ice Fang and HP [Elec] thing anyways.
ChristovaOnIce said:
In addition to what RaikouLover and deluge pointed out, I would also like to add that Garchomp is vulnerable to Spikes and Toxic Spikes in ways that many other OU pokemon (scizor, mence, gyara, latias, metagross, flygon) are not.
If anything isn't this a good thing? If many other OU pokemon are immune Toxic Spikes/Spikes, there is much less of a reason to use them (other than primarily for Garchomp... and if doing so is a waste against other OU pokemon then it shouldn't be worth it!). I would never user Spikes/Toxic Spikes just for one pokemon if it means I compromise my ability to deal with other OU threats. Granted, you can still use SR, but you are still wasting a moveslot for otherwise unnecessary entry hazards.
lordkira said:
While this statement of Garchomp's vulnerability to spikes and tspikes is true, I don't find this too troublesome against Garchomp. I don't find tspikes and spikes too worrisome as they aren't as effective as SR. SR, whether it is super effective against one or not, hits all and the other two do not.
While I agree with you (clearly), your opinion isnt a valid argument. Just because 'you' don't find [toxic] spikes worrisome doesn't mean the rest of the competitive battling community does not. It would be better to state how Spikes and toxic Spikes aren't as widespread nor as effective as SR (which you did briefly touch on, but only _briefly_).
Anyways, I hate this topic so don't expect to get into a quote war with me (especially not the people I want to agree with!)