We did it guys! The hazard setter:remover ratio is now 11:3 instead of 12:3!
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Big Ho™ strikes again
Worth noting - Banning Gholdengo, while possibly necessarily, is going to make this problem exponentially worse. It's an omni-useful mon, but is also putting a large number of possibly problematic mons in check. There's more than a couple of mons that can fairly reliably be filed under 'possibly actionable, but suppressed by gholdengo'.
The applies to nearly every action btw. Tera gets banned, now have 5 new problems now that you can't tera reverse uno card them. Kingambit goes, creates some new problems on it's way out (probably dragapult, maybe a couple others). Wellspring and Sneasler while problmatic don't actually fix anything besides themselves by getting banned, it just reduce format threat density a little. Action on hazard stacking, now we end up with 5 other problems. I'm kind of expecting that at some point as we proceed down the list, we're just randomly gonna have a big full stall resurgence because we took out just the right pieces and now something's gonna have to be done about that.
The tier's in a no-win spot right now. It's a dumpster fire, but it's a dumpsterfire balanced like a jenga tower - every piece that gets taken out either only affects itself or just makes the overall picture worse at least in the short term. Either you accept that this is your life from now on, or you start pulling pieces out and hope at some point it rights itself. If there was a 'one action fixes all' solution, it probably would have been done right now. Banning Tera is probably the single greatest thing we could do to fix the format, but even that creates 5 brand-new problems.
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Ideally, the meta will be given a week or so to resettle now that Gliscor is gone, since there's a couple of significant follow-on changes to the hazards game:
1) Great Tusk can go back to using Knock Off instead of Ice Spinner (though the latter is still great to deal with Rillaboom teams), which improves the matchup versus Gholdengo and, thus, hazard removal in general.
2) Cinderace was helpless into standard Gliscor, since he'd stack spikes back up if you Court Changed and it didn't pose a threat thanks to Gliscor's physical bulk. When you can wear down the opponent's spikes setters, flipping the hazards becomes much viable.
3) Samurott-H and Ting-Lu are not fans of Rillaboom teams, so there's a good chance we see a different spread of spikes setters now than before Gliscor entered the scene.
That said, if the council doesn't want to wait, for the love of God please do not suspect Gholdengo before Sneasler. We just removed one of Sneasler's better checks, let's not toast a second one without first giving the metagame some time.
1) Great Tusk can go back to using Knock Off instead of Ice Spinner (though the latter is still great to deal with Rillaboom teams), which improves the matchup versus Gholdengo and, thus, hazard removal in general.
2) Cinderace was helpless into standard Gliscor, since he'd stack spikes back up if you Court Changed and it didn't pose a threat thanks to Gliscor's physical bulk. When you can wear down the opponent's spikes setters, flipping the hazards becomes much viable.
3) Samurott-H and Ting-Lu are not fans of Rillaboom teams, so there's a good chance we see a different spread of spikes setters now than before Gliscor entered the scene.
That said, if the council doesn't want to wait, for the love of God please do not suspect Gholdengo before Sneasler. We just removed one of Sneasler's better checks, let's not toast a second one without first giving the metagame some time.
> Great Tusk can go back to using Knock Off instead of Ice Spinner
This message brought to you by the Tera Flying Kingambit Political Action Committee.
>That said, if the council doesn't want to wait, for the love of God please do not suspect Gholdengo before Sneasler.
I'm actually a huge fan of booting Gholdengo beforehand because then it means Snealser just gets quickbanned instantly and saves us time on the suspect. Obviously if Gholdengo doesn't catch the bus then we suspect test Sneasler anyways, but I'm a really big fan of efficiency in suspect testing. If you have something that's like 90% chance to get banned, but banning something else that's like 60-70% to ban it makes it quickbannable, then why not go for the 60% first and save the time.
This message brought to you by the Tera Flying Kingambit Political Action Committee.
>That said, if the council doesn't want to wait, for the love of God please do not suspect Gholdengo before Sneasler.
I'm actually a huge fan of booting Gholdengo beforehand because then it means Snealser just gets quickbanned instantly and saves us time on the suspect. Obviously if Gholdengo doesn't catch the bus then we suspect test Sneasler anyways, but I'm a really big fan of efficiency in suspect testing. If you have something that's like 90% chance to get banned, but banning something else that's like 60-70% to ban it makes it quickbannable, then why not go for the 60% first and save the time.
Stop complaining about ho and instead get some hos irl.
Ok I made my joke. I'm divided between sneasler and gholdengo on the chopping block next. Sneasler is an immediate threat right now without gliscor to stop it, and the rilla-sneasler core became even more insufferable to deal with. I run this coupled with screens which makes sneasler survive a lot of hits it shouldn't and sweep almost uncontested.
The main things that stops it rn is dozo (which hates rilla), mandibuzz (which tbf can shit on this core pretty well with an ID set), and corvi (hates getting knocked by rilla and cc or low kick can 2hko it. If it doesn't have brave bird its a sitting duck and if it does then it just pushes sneasler to tera which is almost never a bad thing unless it's tera-ing into dying to a gambit sucker).
Moltres is a decent stop with flame body but if you don't proc that it's kinda dire, unless you run wisp. heatran can do flame body stuff too but it hates being in front of a sneasler with cc/low kick.
You also don't have to let sneasler fight until it dies either. While losing the def boost is pretty meh, it can still function when bringing it again later in the game. Sneasler is great at blowing holes into the team for other mons like iron val, dragapult, even rilla itself to clean, as a late game cleaner or, even nastier, a mon that 6-0s you right out of the gate.
You've heard 20 pages of ghold arguments, I'm not making you read them again.
Sidenote but I don't think ghold is a great check for sneasler rn, I'm seeing a lot of shadow claw/lash out. If it doesn't have those then yeah, not sure whats the usage % tho
Ok I made my joke. I'm divided between sneasler and gholdengo on the chopping block next. Sneasler is an immediate threat right now without gliscor to stop it, and the rilla-sneasler core became even more insufferable to deal with. I run this coupled with screens which makes sneasler survive a lot of hits it shouldn't and sweep almost uncontested.
The main things that stops it rn is dozo (which hates rilla), mandibuzz (which tbf can shit on this core pretty well with an ID set), and corvi (hates getting knocked by rilla and cc or low kick can 2hko it. If it doesn't have brave bird its a sitting duck and if it does then it just pushes sneasler to tera which is almost never a bad thing unless it's tera-ing into dying to a gambit sucker).
Moltres is a decent stop with flame body but if you don't proc that it's kinda dire, unless you run wisp. heatran can do flame body stuff too but it hates being in front of a sneasler with cc/low kick.
You also don't have to let sneasler fight until it dies either. While losing the def boost is pretty meh, it can still function when bringing it again later in the game. Sneasler is great at blowing holes into the team for other mons like iron val, dragapult, even rilla itself to clean, as a late game cleaner or, even nastier, a mon that 6-0s you right out of the gate.
You've heard 20 pages of ghold arguments, I'm not making you read them again.
Sidenote but I don't think ghold is a great check for sneasler rn, I'm seeing a lot of shadow claw/lash out. If it doesn't have those then yeah, not sure whats the usage % tho
The fact that Snealser has to pivot from otherwise useful moves specifically to cover Gholdengo is exactly what makes it a good check, and why it's not a counter. Not only is your coverage limited, but you can also just get blasted by a tera switch from gholdengo because you had to click your subpar anti-Go move.
This is why banning Gholdengo might be overall problematic for the tier in the short term. There's a lot of stuff carrying coverage specifically to deal with Gholdengo that gets unleashed with it's ban. In Snealser's case specifically, if you can run acro instead of shadow claw/lash out, now you can answer a Great Tusk instead of having to rely on tera and giving up one or the other.
This is why banning Gholdengo might be overall problematic for the tier in the short term. There's a lot of stuff carrying coverage specifically to deal with Gholdengo that gets unleashed with it's ban. In Snealser's case specifically, if you can run acro instead of shadow claw/lash out, now you can answer a Great Tusk instead of having to rely on tera and giving up one or the other.
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i like how corv has inexplicably managed to be a sorta-answer to every mon we've suspected post-dlc so far. it was one of the closest things we had to a bloodmoon check, the id set could in theory beat some roaring moon sets, it walled gliscor, and now it's one of the few semi-workable things we have against sneasler. never a perfect answer, far from the best, but always something to consider. it's like the burger king of ou
That mostly speaks to its type than anything else. Steel/Flying is one of the best types in the games and if Skarm is coming back (I can't remember if it was confirmed) I'm curious how the OG metal birb will fair.
Snealser going is a matter of 'when' and not 'if', but Ghold going is definitely more important. It's going to absolutely make things worse for a short awhile, but ultimately the stranglehold it has is too heavy I feel. Gambit should have never survived, but at least we've gaslit ourselves that the 100+ pages of discussion about how problematic these two are goes out the window cuz GNC Snealser whooped us good. 
Take out all three so I can mash knock off with Meowscarada on Pult for awhile longer before it eventually goes with them.
Take out all three so I can mash knock off with Meowscarada on Pult for awhile longer before it eventually goes with them.
Swapping out acro for shadow claw is not the best option imo. Fighting/flying/dark or ghost is the best option for sneaslers moveset to me, as while you do miss dire cheese, you're hitting the most checks you can like this. This set doesn't like clef, hat and zapdos, but clef is a smaller annoyance and hat can't do much coming in. The zapdos matchup is kinda ass without dire claw, but I think it's a worthy sacrifice compared to what you can hit
I can't say I disagree with that. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when Bax was terrorizing the tier who was our hero? Who walled and killed knockless Gliscor? Who is offense's only Sneasler check? Gholdengo even makes Kingambit more balanced despite losing to it because its presence forces Kingambit to come out early and get chipped. But unfortunately offense is just too strong and the equilibrium must be repaired.
Particularly disgusting about Gholdengo is how it engages with webs. Spinblocking for webs is very valuable of course but the fact that it also benefits from the webs offensively to a ridiculous degree pushes it over the line imo. With the addition of Ribombee and the many powerful webs benefactors like Manaphy this team style is too powerful - let's knock it down a peg.
Now the cascade of bans can continue
- chop up sneasler, ghold still controversial
- Take out ghold, more attention goes to Ogerpon/kingambit
- Once ogerpon and gambit get the axe, manaphy is too overwhelming
- Manaphy gets cut out of OU, major discourse around booster energy is re-discussed, with valiant the hot topic
- Surprise cresselia suspect due to no more gambit, ghold, etc.
- OU community collectively realises what we were saying all along: keeping blind tera means banning 10+ Pokémon in a domino effect
- eventually we reach the “stale” point in the meta, where wall breaking is limited and defensive teams can pick a Tera to optimise for most offensive structures. Stall usage increases.
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in one day we decided to go straight for sneasler despite the discussion of ghouldengo all week. honestly just QB both at this point why waste time. qb king too. and ogrepom. and manaphy. whoever else the council in their wisdom think will pop up next. cresselia sure idc.
but keep tera. bc its fun and people stopped playing gen8 due to its generation mechanic being banned. the bans may never end, but thats fine. OUBL/uubers is inevitable.
but keep tera. bc its fun and people stopped playing gen8 due to its generation mechanic being banned. the bans may never end, but thats fine. OUBL/uubers is inevitable.
your train of thought is literally 'broken checks broken' which is smogon blasphemy. please atone.
I feel like it will fare worse than corvi is but probably will still be viable as a spiker.
Probably a UU Mon again but one that can be used here to fine effect.
Just because something is fun in the short term doesn't make it fun long term, this meta is a very good example of that
Sap Sipper H-Goodra:
Yeh no. Casual players stopped. Competitive did not.
Unless the hazard issue improves with reintroduced defog distribution, skarmory will be a better wall and thus a better Pokemon. Since it throws spikes up it actually accomplishes stuff while Corv is forced to turn on dengo.
Sneasler is WAY more broken than Gholdengo, especially now that Gliscor is banned and was one of its major roadblocks along with Gholdengo. Even without Dire Claw, it’d still be borderline broken, but it can always cheese wins no problem because Dire Claw can always screw your check over. It honestly even warrents discussion about sleep clause too.
KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
We JUST banned something
Give the meta a fucking week. This whole damn situation could've likely been avoided had we given the damn tier a week's rest every fuckin test. Yeah, you can predict shit on paper, but paper and reality are two different things, so put shit to the test before you come clamoring back for more fucky wuckies.
Give the meta a fucking week. This whole damn situation could've likely been avoided had we given the damn tier a week's rest every fuckin test. Yeah, you can predict shit on paper, but paper and reality are two different things, so put shit to the test before you come clamoring back for more fucky wuckies.
You know that bit in the climax of Fate/Zero where it's pointed out that, taken to their logical conclusion, Kiritsugu's ideals of sacrificing the few to save the many would ultimately just result in people continuing to die until there was no one left?
I kinda feel like we're enacting that in Pokemon form.
i don't think this part is accurate.
first of all, we'll never reach that point before dlc2 and then we have an entirely new mess to clean up
second, most of our bans haven't actually had much to do with tera—volc, espathra and eleki were explicitly banned because of it, but everything else we've kicked out is some flavor of stupid without the mechanic:
might honestly have needed some more time because we hadn't figured out exactly how proto/quark worked yet, but this thing is dumb as shit and sun made it dumber than shit, no tera needed
last respects is bullshit
box-legendary stat spread with virtually nothing holding it back, strong priority, insanely strong stab in wave crash, bulk up, drain punch for longevity, access to taunt to stop the few things that could defensively answer it, this thing had everything going for it
ridiculous speed tier, unresisted stab thanks to freeze-dry, inexplicably good physical bulk
goes without saying
sure, some people said tera was to blame, but they were lying. it's got almost unresisted stab, a power-scaling move that scales way too fast, and enough bulk to use said move with incredible effectiveness. tera was never the problem here
shed tail is bullshit
everything dumb about weavile last gen was taken up to 11 with this thing, except instead of triple axel and knock off and beat up it got sacred fucking sword and free extra damage on everything
a million different sets, the best defensive typing in the game, fucking spikes
fully fledged box legendary
they gave it swords dance
very easy to set up and equally hard to stop, immune to burn, almost-consequence-free outrage as a signature move, obscenely good under veil/hail
yes, she did have intrepid sword when she tera'd, but she was broken enough without it—mold breaker was actually better in a decent number of situations. swords dance did more footwork in that regard
absurdly high spa, almost unwallable stab combo, ridiculous physical bulk, calm mind, could launch a nuclear fucking bomb every other turn, had priority for no damn reason, and had recovery on top of all that
dragon dance on something already really strong and pretty fast, knock off made it way too easy to force progress, booster energy + acrobatics was great even without tera
this one's recent enough that i don't need to explain, just read the suspect thread
third, cresselia? really? that's the mon you're thinking we're gonna be gunning for after all the current things on the radar are taken care of? just use taunt
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Oh that's why everyone talks shit about it.
Sticky Barb Clefable is no mere joke, it's pretty legit. I don't know if it's a fad, or the lower mid ranks haven't caught on, but it causes pain. My favorite part about it is when I completley forget that I ever equipped the thing at all, then we both get to share in the surprise of their hp dropping lol.
Bro really missed the “Unwallable Tera Aura STAB”
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