Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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viivian

OU's sweetheart
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wouldn't that be grounds to not ban Last Respects but to instead just kick Basculegion to Ubers with Houndstone?
if you need to rely on a pre-evolved pokemon with a STABless last respects to justify the move staying then it should not stay. houndstone clearly does not belong in OU without last respects, let alone ubers of all tiers
 
nah, last respects is broken no matter what way you slice it. even without stab, a spammable 300-power move is just silly. i also can't assume white stripe basculin will be fine and dandy with it when it's faster than both basculegion and houndstone.
Fair, fair. I was just trying to play a bit of devil's advocate is all.
if you need to rely on a pre-evolved pokemon with a STABless last respects to justify the move staying then it should not stay. houndstone clearly does not belong in OU without last respects, let alone ubers of all tiers
I thought, (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that it was policy for something like a move or ability to only be banned if ALL of it's recipients were shown to problematic with it-like the Arena Trap example earlier in the thread, where it got a blanket ban after Trapinch and Diglett started tearing the tier up with it. If (and this is indeed a BIG if, don't misunderstand me) Basculin isn't busted with it, then it'd seem consistent with previous examples of the same policy to keep the move around and just boot Basculegion too.
 
nah, last respects is broken no matter what way you slice it. even without stab, a spammable 300-power move is just silly. i also can't assume white stripe basculin will be fine and dandy with it when it's faster than both basculegion and houndstone.
I mean, Primeape has a 350 power move and it is RU even if a lot of people was saying that after Annihilape's ban that everyone was just going to use the pre-evo.
 
It seems that currently, the most contentious threats like Garganacl and Volcarona are mostly matchup sensitive threats that can win games with the difficult to predict Tera type.

we might be at the point of the metagame where it’s worth taking a step back and re-assessing if it’s worth having Tera types show at team-preview as being a suitable restriction placed on Tera.

This should preserve Pokémon that otherwise sit on the upper borderline of OU. And is especially important as we enter the next major meta shift.

there is a chance it might even allow for Annihilape to have a look back into OU, since that stands out from the rest of the banned threats as being mostly good due to the unpredictability, rather than immediate power or speed.

in regards to comments about the next major meta shift, imagine an upcoming scenario where you need to guess whether Kartana is Tera dark/electric/flying/fire/fighting/ghost/ice, versus one where you don’t. There’s more Pokémon’s that will become difficult to deal with if there is uncertainty around Tera type.
 
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The council immediately QB'd Cleopostrich after Chien-Pao, they'll probably slap Garg up immediately after this one is over. (Though y'know they're a group of living people with lives outside of Smogon and not some uniform entity that you can speculate as if it's a story)

Fair, fair. I was just trying to play a bit of devil's advocate is all.

I thought, (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that it was policy for something like a move or ability to only be banned if ALL of it's recipients were shown to problematic with it-like the Arena Trap example earlier in the thread, where it got a blanket ban after Trapinch and Diglett started tearing the tier up with it. If (and this is indeed a BIG if, don't misunderstand me) Basculin isn't busted with it, then it'd seem consistent with previous examples of the same policy to keep the move around and just boot Basculegion too.
The big thing is that during that time people were ACTIVELY using Diglett, Trapinch, Gothia, ect, for that role. Basculegion and White Striped Basculin aren't out yet, so trying to go "hm yes this is broken on paper" isn't enough evidence to determine the cause, to write a scientific theory you actually gotta fuck around first, can't go off whatever formula you wrote. So since the only pokemon that has it that IS USEABLE currently, is Houndstone, the funny doggy was banned, because for the sake of accuracy, only Houndstone has it. Redundancy is redundant.
 
The year is 2025. Although it is raining outside, the athmosphere is not that of a gloomy, boring afternoon. Rather, it is comforting. The kind of weather that makes you appreciate the small things in life. The rain carries with it a hint of the salty sea breeze.

A door opens. Footsteps. A man sits down at his desk, opens his laptop, and puts a mug filled with rich, aromatic coffee on the desk. "Best Leader Ever" is printed on the mug, though the print is slowly starting to wear down.

After many, many metagame shifts for SVOU thanks to the various DLC updates, HOME additions and monthly pokemon releases into the official game, generation 9 will be ending soon. It has been one crazy generation, even wilder than the one before it. The constant influx of new pokemon has been both a blessing and a curse. Sometimes, a pokemon would fit nicely into the metagame, carving a niche for itself and making the Overused meta fresh again. Sometimes, the new addition would simply be lower tier material. But there were occasions where tiering action was needed. Be it a Quickban or a Suspect Test, new mons often had to be acted on rather quickly.

But throughout all this change, one thing remained constant.

Garganacl.

But today will change that. After dodging suspect tests for the entirity of Scarlet & Violet, it's time has finally come. As the generation draws to a close and people focus on the soon-to-be-released Pokemon Astra & Terra, there is just enough time to fit a proper suspect in. In a parallel to generation 8, a golem made from seemingly inanimate material will be the final decision made in Scarlet & Violet

The man stretches his fingers, opens a text editor and starts typing. The words appear effortlessly on the screen, describing the reasoning behind the suspect test. Jokes are woven into the description and, after having written so many of these suspect briefs, the entire text is condensed effectively into a few paragraphs. There's just one more thing to add. He opens youtube, and types in "Ava Max - Salt". Perhaps a bit unconventional, but certainly a fitting header for the forum post. Everything is copied over onto the already opened browser window, the title filled in the day before: np: OU Suspect Process, Round 12: Salt. One click, and the thread is posted.

It doesn't take long for others to start commenting, expressing their thoughts about the salted golem. The man leans back in his chair, takes a sip of his coffee - cold by now - and stares at the screen for a few minutes. He closes his laptop, content with his final actions for the Scarlet & Violet Overused metagame. With the weather having cleared up now, he decides to go for a walk. The man grabs his jacket from the wardrobe. A small print is visible on it, reading "Smogon Loves Stall". A cruel contradiction, really. He dons the jacket, and heads for the front door.

But just before he leaves, his iphone 17 lights up. A Discord Notification. Curious, the man opens it.

The phone falls onto the ground. A fist is slammed against a wall. Soon after, the 11th suspect thread is locked and archived.

On the phone screen, a news article is visible

"Arriving soon: Pokemon MANSION
After years of players being angry at Gamefreak about the "Dexit", Nintendo has just announced the return of the full Pokédex to Pokémon Scarlet & Violet!"
 
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G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
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1. I've never been a fan of EBooster Valiant. It's a wasted item slot, thus I'd rather have Scarf on it over EBooster.
2. Various people run Scarf Valiant. I used to run it to beat Chien Pao when it was still legal. (Yes, call me bad if you want, at least I'm having fun going against the grain and trying to be creative rather than just sitting on a stump and refusing to adapt.)
3. Moon forces it out, yes. But it doesn't want to come in on a Draco Meteor. Draco smashes Moon if you're greedy enough to hard switch into it.
4. Azu does well enough against it. Also where tf are you getting 2HKO after rocks???
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 124 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill in Sun: 99-117 (29 - 34.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 124 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill in Sun: 74-87 (21.7 - 25.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
tf are you on, Corvi?
I don't get this though. It doesn't matter if YOU personally dislike a set, it's the standard set, and suggesting things that are deemed less effective overall just to check this thing is not it. You claiming that yeah I ran Scarf Valiant to check Chien Pao is not the boost to your argument you think it is.
 
where is this hate for gholdengo
aids mon
you know what, this gen has too many scrubmons

donbozo (mega suicune), walking wake (rom hack suicune), clodsire, minecraft man who spams zero drawback ghost-Curse, and Ultimate Spinblocker: Status Wonder Guard™ all in the same gen :pikuh:
Imagine still complaining about Dozo in March 2023.

As for Ghold. No doubt its the mon that it had the biggest influence on the metagame. Making OU revolve around the hazard v hazard removal game. However its influence does not restrict teambuilding like other broken threats we’ve seen. It has in fact been a beneficiary, being able to fill multiple roles from a defensive check to several mons, a breaker, a scarfer, etc. Its best to treat Ghold like ADV Ttar. Its amazing at multiple roles and its presence alone warps the meta around it without being broken itself. Like ADV Ttar, it didn’t have true counters, but had many checks. Gambit, Clod, Tera Water Skele, Chomp, Treads, Volc, Moth, etc.

DPP OU and BW NU did not even have the luxury of a spinner like Tusks. Peeps got too comfortable with clicking Defog brainlessly throughout Gen 8 and now they have to actually think when dealing with hazards.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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I look forward to the monthly OU addition from GF that will keep putting off a feasible Garg Test until Home drops.

(Disclaimer, this is not a jab at the council, just hilarity given the timing of Walking Wake showing up just as Salt was potentially gaining action support)
I agree it's unfortunate but it's like a wake up call to realize the metagame was in a really good place from offensive threats in general until Suicune's brother came to mess it all up.

And to counterpoint the random mons that get dropped off whether every month or whatever the frequency is like Greninja or Cinderace just really help balance other mons. Like Cinderace dropped during the Tera Suspect but it really helped with keeping Gholdengo spam in check, so sometimes when Gamefreak decides to drop something on a raid it can actually be beneficial to the meta as a whole.
 
where is this hate for gholdengo
aids mon
you know what, this gen has too many scrubmons

donbozo (mega suicune), walking wake (rom hack suicune), clodsire, 350 Base Power Knightmare Dog, Mr. "imma ignore Baton Pass Clause", Actual Fakemon: Cleopatra, minecraft man who spams zero drawback ghost-Curse, and Ultimate Spinblocker: Status Wonder Guard™ all in the same gen :pikuh:
Clodsire is like the glue that's been holding this weird pre-Home metagame together. Like, more than one of the mons you're complaining about here are answered reliably by it. Wake is literally about to be suspected and Garg is next on the chopping block. Gholdengo, sure, everyone's entitled to their opinion even if I think it's dumb. Dondozo, even more dumb but also an opinion thing. But Clodsire? The Clod? That's one of the big issues of this generation to you, right up there with actual week one Ubers bans?
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
>defog is brainless xd
>brainlessly switches in fakemon immune to all status and all forms of hazard removal

Dang i got outskilled, guess ur 18 layers of hazards are staying up unless i run the meme mouse...ggs
If Gholdengo is consistently blocking your hazard removal in March 2023 to the point you are trying to run Maushold, then yeah, nothing more than a skill issue on your end tbh.
 
Granted it's partially for this reason, but Great Tusk is literally the most common Pokemon in OU right now, and as a Spinner most of his sets have moves that shit on Gholdengo switching in to Spinblock.

I hate Aegislash 2: Return of Jafar a lot, but it's more a combination of things than any one aspect being busted or broken like Spin-blocking or Sweeping.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Top Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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I guess my thoughts about the inevitable Suspect Test regarding Walking Wake is that its well deserved.

I'm very excited to partake and really solidify my initial thoughts about it. Anyone keeping up with the discussion can see that I'm pretty anti-Walking Wake in the current meta. I think the meta was in a really good place, where there wasn't really anything jumping out that seemed broken.

usage =/= brokeness but lets take the most 2 common Pokemons averaging 50% usage or there about. Great Tusk hasn't ever been in the discussion of being tracked on the radar because it can easily be beat, decent speed tier but it gets outspeed by a lot of things, the Booster Energy set / Choiced sets / Bulk Up set is what allows it shine offensively. It isn't ever "too much to handle", if you look at Gholdengo (Good as Gold) has always been in the discussion of potentially being meta restricting but the majority of people are fine with it because Gholdengo isn't the toughest thing to take down and with Tusk running at a higher usage rate, it will always outspeed [if max speed] and really hurt Gholdengo if it's not scarfed / if it doesn't tera. Obviously you have other checks / counters for Gholdengo like Clodsire, Kingambit, Volc, bulky waters etc.

To get back to the point of Walking Wake, it has a couple of checks or counters Gastro / Clodsire (Water Absorb), I'm sure a new tech could be added to beat certain counters since that's what tera blast is made for. To beat the Water Absorb brothers you can go with a Draco Meteor and hope to chip both down, but realistically both are solid counters (No Tera Blast included). Walking Wake has a very limited moveset, you don't have a lot of options of moves, if you're running it under Sun (Which is much easier to abuse than running it under Rain) you're not running Hurricane for example. Chien Pao was hard countered by Tauros Paldea but people didn't want to run Tauros Paldea on their team over better options. It's the same idea here with Walking Wake. Slowking and Toxapex both do a solid job as well of countering, generally any bulky water can take it on but the issue is the opposing team will be suited to take popular Walking Wake counters.

So whatever you have "a lot counters", now what? Protosynthesis.

:Walking Wake:
Walking Wake @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 12 Def / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Steam
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Hydro Pump

1678003235973.png


This is where my problem with this Pokémon comes in, under Sun this thing is a bit "too much to handle". It's a low effort mon much like Chien Pao, smack a Choice item and go to town. You have roughly 520 Special Attack and 522 Speed, so outside of Iron Valiant with Booster Energy / Roaring Moon under Sun / Booster Energy you're outspeed almost everything that doesn't have priority. Incredible speed tier to say the least, and then you have 520 Special Attack with a move that does 120 BP (under sun) + STAB = 180 total, it really puts a hole into a lot of things and that's not with Tera Water slapped onto it (Very reminiscing of Chi-Yu + Tera Fire).

[I can slap calcs if people are interested but I know people don't like calc arguments so I won't post it here unless someone's curious]

This really puts a restriction on team building, could the meta stay like this with Walking Wake? Absolutely.
Will people get used to it and stop complaining? Probably.
Is it unhealthy to the metagame? No doubt.

Lastly I want to touch on its bulk and type overall which is understated a lot these last couple of days. Off the bat it's weak to only Dragon / Fairies, so if your opponent switches into something that is trying to kill it, easy play is to stay in and Tera Water to avoid the probable OHKO. Now regarding its bulk 339 HP no investment is a nice base to build around 221 Defense [12 EVs] invested + 202 Special Defense means you can take on hits from walls for days so you cannot easily take it down unless you plan on hitting it neutrally with something that has a Choice Band / Choice Specs (Shoutout to CB Great Tusk OHKOing it with Headlong Rush). My opinions can change in the next 2 weeks, but so far I have a lot of arguments for banning it vs keeping it in the meta, I'm interested to hear everyone's thoughts about Christopher Walking Wake.
 
Haven't found Wake to be too big of a problem so far, but its tango partner, Roaring Moon, can be kinda annoying since it can put a lot of pressure on Wake's answers and create some dangerous 50 / 50s with U-Turn or DD. So far, I've been using Azumarill as my main Wake answer + have Iron Valiant in the back to revenge it, which Roaring Moon can somewhat exploit. I'm wondering what people have been using to handle this Combo of Roaring Moon + Wake?
 
Haven't found Wake to be too big of a problem so far, but its tango partner, Roaring Moon, can be kinda annoying since it can put a lot of pressure on Wake's answers and create some dangerous 50 / 50s with U-Turn or DD. So far, I've been using Azumarill as my main Wake answer + have Iron Valiant in the back to revenge it, which Roaring Moon can somewhat exploit. I'm wondering what people have been using to handle this Combo of Roaring Moon + Wake?
Water Absorb Clod + Corviknight
 
I hate to admit it, chien pao's ban did more good than harm to the metagame.
multyple pokemon from lower tiers climbed to OU now that it is gone.

I know that people are complaining about volcarona, and they do make some good points, but I think that shed tail should be banned first before we move on banning volcarona. if she is still broken after a shed tail ban then I am okay with banning her.
 
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Lastly I want to touch on its bulk and type overall which is understated a lot these last couple of days. Off the bat it's weak to only Dragon / Fairies, so if your opponent switches into something that is trying to kill it, easy play is to stay in and Tera Water to avoid the probable OHKO. Now regarding its bulk 339 HP no investment is a nice base to build around 221 Defense [12 EVs] invested + 202 Special Defense means you can take on hits from walls for days so you cannot easily take it down unless you plan on hitting it neutrally with something that has a Choice Band / Choice Specs (Shoutout to CB Great Tusk OHKOing it with Headlong Rush). My opinions can change in the next 2 weeks, but so far I have a lot of arguments for banning it vs keeping it in the meta, I'm interested to hear everyone's thoughts about Christopher Walking Wake.
First off, I agree with your entire post here, you've got a really good way of saying the things I already agree with but written very well and detailed. I wanna go into more detail about this main issue of bulk though, since you've already done a great job explaining why its offense is so great. Only being weak to Dragon and Fairy is pretty amazing when OU only has three Fairy types in it at present and none of them deal with Wake particularly well. Iron Valiant can OHKO if it outspeeds, but Wake can use Protosynthesis for a Speed boost a lot easier than Valiant can (Choice Scarf isn't the best option on it and Booster Energy is a one time use that you have to commit to). Both Valiant and Hatterene are too frail to actually be switch-ins to Wake, requiring a sacrifice to get on the field against it even without sun in the equation. Azumarill can actually switch in and take Hydro Steam in sun, Flamethrower, and Dragon STAB, but Wake just has to switch out and try to get in later against it. As long as it and Torkoal are able to keep coming back in, Wake can just keep wearing down Azumarill every time it tries to come in, since it has no real recovery option.

And, y'know, if you really want to:
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Poison Walking Wake Tera Blast vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 458-540 (123.7 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For non-Fairies running coverage, that's basically just Meowscarada's Play Rough and anyone using Fairy Tera Blast. Meow loses unless it's scarfed or has an intact Focus Sash, and Tera Fairy is basically a purely defensive typing that you aren't using to combine with Tera Blast. Maybe Volcarona after a Quiver Dance or two? Blech.

So, since Dragon beats itself and Wake counters dragons that can OHKO it just the same it does them, that leaves us with neutral hits to work. Math time. What can hit this thing back when it's got 500+ Speed before getting OHKO'd? For reference, I'm assuming you're switching one of these in against Wake for free, and it's the usual set of Proto-Speed plus Specs.

252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Tera Poison Walking Wake: 105-124 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Walking Wake: 235-277 (69.3 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 306-362 (94.7 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Walking Wake: 172-204 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 428-504 (163.9 - 193.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Walking Wake: 207-244 (61 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 326-384 (88.3 - 104%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

So, in essence, this Wake set under sun has one actual counter in Water Absorb Clodsire, and two-three Pokemon capable of revenge killing it as long as they've got a Choice Scarf or a Focus Sash. That's messed up. There's the argument that only this specific Wake set is this powerful, but I think that's kinda dumb. The fact that there is any set at all where this is not only possible, but consistent and possible to fish for multiple times in a match, is a huge problem.

Gosh I hope I didn't get out all my good writing now before the suspect thread actually opens

Edit before a certain nameless Gastrodon enthusiast brings it up:
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 379-447 (88.9 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 333-394 (71.9 - 85%) -- not a KO
 
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I hate to admit it, chien pao's ban did more good than harm to the metagame.
multyple pokemon from lower tiers climbed to OU now that it is gone.

I know that people are complaining about volcarona, and they do make some good points, but I think that shed tail should be banned first before we move on banning volcarona. if she is still broken after a shed tail ban then I am okay with banning her.
This I agree with. Shed tail needs to go. Not to mention pairing up orthworm with h-zoroark for mind games lol
 
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