Lee
@ Thick Club
(I realise there is a thread about Trick Room already but this is not a discussion strictly about the move, but about the playstyle in general. Besides, I'm a mod )
Trick Room has been a controversial subject since its introduction in the 4th Generation. Ask any experienced player and he'll probably tell you it's a gimmick. A pointless strategy that should be confined to fun teams and bad players. Will this still be the case in BW? It's too early to say but lets look into it.
The discussion in this forum so far (and early playtesting notes from PO) seem to suggest that the metagame will be dominated by heavy offense. Typical 4th Gen heavy offense teams generally consist of a Stealth Rock/dual screen lead and 5 fast sweepers who usually rely on typing synergy and occasional sacrifices followed by revenge kills to deal with opposing offensive threats. It's easy to see why such a team would throw a fit against a well constructed Trick Room team. The theory is that if heavy offense does become the standard team, then Trick Room has the potential to become the perfect anti-metagame team.
How will a 5th Gen Trick Room probably look?
Honestly, probably not too different to the 4th Gen versions. See Gen Empoleon's 'A Guide to DPP Trick Room' for some extended reading. The idea has always been to have a few sturdy Pokemon to set up and refresh Trick Room and then to have a few Pokemon with sky-high offensive capabilities, poor speed and usable bulk who can take advantage of the warped dimensions.
Who learns Trick Room?
I will leave out stuff like Abra and Gastly but I'm going to mention certain pre-evolutions on account of the new item which raises the Defense and SpD of unevolved Pokemon.
Alakazam
Slowbro
Gengar
Hypno
Exeggutor
Starmie
Mr. Mime
Jynx
Porygon
Mewtwo
Mew
Xatu
Espeon
Slowking
Girafarig
Porygon2
Stantler
Celebi
Gardevoir
Grumpig
Spinda
Solrock
Lunatone
Claydol
Kecleon
Banette
Dusclops
Chimecho
Jirachi
Deoxys
Mismagius
Bronzong
Porygon-z
Gallade
Dusknoir
Uxie
Azelf
Mesprit
Dialga
Palkia
Cresselia
Arceus
Victini
Musharna (Psychic @ 116/55/85/107/95/29)
Kokoromori (Psychic/Flying @ 67/57/55/77/114)
Tabunne (Normal @ 103/60/85/60/86/50)
Erufuun (Grass @ 60/67/85/77/75/116)
Shinpora (Psychic/Flying @ 72/58/80/103/80/97)
Desukan (Ghost @ 58/50/145/95/105/30)
Gochiruzeru (Psychic @ 70/55/95/95/110/65)
Rankurusu (Psychic @ 110/65/75/125/85/30)
Burungeru (Water/Ghost @ 100/60/70/85/105/60)
Gigigear (Steel @ 60/100/115/70/85/90)
Oobemu (Psychic @ 75/75/75/125/95/40)
Shanderaa (Ghost/Fire @ 60/55/90/145/90/80)
Meloetta (Normal/Psychic @ 100/77/77/128/128/90)
Some notes...
- Dusclops is an interesting 'new' addition thanks to the Pre-Evolution Stone. Whilst holding it, and running 252 HP and 252 Def with a Relaxed nature, he sports defenses of 284/591/444.
- Porygon2 benefits from the Pre-Evolution store too. This, combined with Trace and Recover means he will likely see a lot of use on Trick Room teams.
- Slowbro, Slowking and Tabunne possess the fantastic combination of Trick Room and Regeneration allowing them to twist the dimensions and then heal 33% of their health as they switch out.
- Rankurusu seems to be created with setting up Trick Room in mind. Decent defensive stats, Magic Guard and Recover allow him to refresh Trick Room with ease. 125 SpA and 30 Spe also allow him to deal damage if he chooses to do so.
- Exeggutor's DW ability, Harvest, allows him to use a berry infinitely. Slap a Lum Berry on him, teach him Rest and you've got a sturdy, powerful Trick Room user with the perfect recovery move and immunity to all status + confusion.
- My favorite Trick Room user is:
Celebi @ Lagging Tail
Relaxed 0 Spe IV (incase of Knock Off I guess?)
252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpD
- Trick Room
- Recover
- U-turn
- Leaf Storm / filler move of choice.
Lagging Tail negates the effects of Trick Room and ensures that Celebi will always go last no matter what. This allows Celebi to set up Trick Room, absorb a hit and U-turn out getting your sweeper in unscathed. This is invaluable if you're using a frail TR sweeper such as Marowak or Rampardos. Legendary bulk, Natural Cure, useful resistances and Recover allow Celebi to usually refresh Trick Room a few times throughout the match.
- Your Trick Room user needn't be so defensive (and arguably useless outside of it's primary role). Such examples are OTR Bronzong and Trick Room Slowking.
- Another example of a Trick Room user who can fulfil other roles is the Dual Screen Uxie that -Life- posted:
Hurry up and get to the new sweepers!
ok >_<
A Trick Room sweeper needs to be able to deal huge amounts of damage and have poor speed. Ideally they won't need to use a boosting move because by the time you've used Trick Room, switched in your sweeper and used your boosting move you only have 2 turns to sweep left. However, there are scenarios where boosting would be beneficial...but the best TR sweepers are the ones who aren't reliant on it. Anyway, here's a few of the new Pokemon that could see use on Trick Room teams.
Roopushin @ Flame Orb
Guts
Brave 0 Spe IV
120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SpD
- Hammer Arm
- Stone Edge
- Facade
- Payback / Mach Punch
- Flame Orb in conjunction with 140 base Atk means Roopushin is operating with 624 Atk.
- Absolute minimum speed of 85.
- Great defensive stats of 381 HP, 226 Def and 200 Special Defense.
- Can't really handle Ghosts because Payback sucks during Trick Room.
- He looks nails.
Gigaisu @ Life Orb
Sand Strength
Brave 0 Spe IV
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Heavy Bomber
- Explosion
- Should only be used if you can guarantee Sandstorm support.
- Sand Strength boosts the power of Stone Edge, Earthquake and Heavy Bomber by 30% (correct me if I'm wrong there please)
- 406 Atk, 25 base Spe makes him one of the slowest Pokemon on the game.
- With Sandstorm support you're looking at 374 HP / 296 Def / 265 SpD.
- Explosion, even with the nerf, is a good move for a Trick Room user as it helps you to dictate the flow of play. Trick Room about to end? No problem, just explode to hopefully kill something and then bring your TR user back out.
- He also looks nails.
Emboar @ Leftovers / Expert Belt
Reckless
Brave 0 Spe IV
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
- Flare Blitz
- Head Smash
- Wild Bolt
- Hammer Arm
- Reckless + 120 Atk + hits 10/17 types super effective means he has a very high damage output.
- 121 min speed. Not super-slow but enough to get the job done. Only base 40 Spe and below Pokemon will be slower.
- Dies from recoil very quickly but will hopefully have caused a whole load of damage before that happens.
- Not very bulky. There's probably a much better defensive spread but the HP investment helps with the recoil.
- Looks better from behind, don't you think?
Kurimugan @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Rough Skin
Brave 0 Spe IV
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Superpower / Fire Fang
- Not the best movepool in the world but Outrage is the main attraction.
- Choice items are usually not ideal on Trick Room teams but the idea would be to weaken your opponents Steels and then spam Choice Band Outrage later on to clean up. Choice Band STAB Outrage from 120 Atk is terrifying especially when you can't outrun it.
- 48 base Spe means he's even slower than Slowbro whilst under Trick Room.
- 358/217/216 defenses are quite impressive.
Baffuron @ Life Orb
Reckless
Brave 0 Spe IV
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
- Afro Breaker
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Wild Bolt
- Reasonaly high attack backed up by a fantastic STAB move in Reckless Afro Breaker.
- 350 Atk, 103 minimum speed.
- 394 HP / 226 Def / 226 SpD make for a very bulky sweeper.
These new fearsome sweepers will be joined by Trick Room icons such as Marowak, Rampardos, Ursaring, Rhyperior, Clamperl, Machamp and the rest of the crew. There might even be a few new faces in there (Adaptability Crawdaunt perhaps?).
So this thread is for everybody to discuss Trick Room in the 5th Gen, post TR orientated sets, share their experiences with Trick Room or explain why you feel Trick Room is a gimmick if you're that way inclined. What about the possible relation between weather teams and Trick Room? Trick Room seems to be a death sentence to a Rain Dance team and makes Doryuuzu dead weight on a Sandstorm team. And could a Weather-based Trick Room team work?
Oh and one last thing - I know that there's no Damp Rock equivalent for Trick Room. I don't need to be reminded of it in every single post. ;p
note: that's the 4th gen description and I believe the mechanics have remained unchanged going into the fifth gen. There were a few rumors but it seems that's all they were. It's also worth noting that I will be discussing DW abilities in this thread so bear that in mind.Smogon said:For 5 turns, slower Pokémon move before faster ones, thus reversing the normal turn order. However, the turn Trick Room is used counts as a turn and thus the effects will be usable only for the next four turns. However, the user of Trick Room will not always go first, as until it is used, normal circumstances apply. This does not affect priority—higher priority moves will still be used before lower priority ones. Pokémon with Full Incense, Lagging Tail, Quick Claw, or Stall completely ignore Trick Room. Using Trick Room when Trick Room is already in effect will remove Trick Room.
Trick Room has been a controversial subject since its introduction in the 4th Generation. Ask any experienced player and he'll probably tell you it's a gimmick. A pointless strategy that should be confined to fun teams and bad players. Will this still be the case in BW? It's too early to say but lets look into it.
The discussion in this forum so far (and early playtesting notes from PO) seem to suggest that the metagame will be dominated by heavy offense. Typical 4th Gen heavy offense teams generally consist of a Stealth Rock/dual screen lead and 5 fast sweepers who usually rely on typing synergy and occasional sacrifices followed by revenge kills to deal with opposing offensive threats. It's easy to see why such a team would throw a fit against a well constructed Trick Room team. The theory is that if heavy offense does become the standard team, then Trick Room has the potential to become the perfect anti-metagame team.
How will a 5th Gen Trick Room probably look?
Honestly, probably not too different to the 4th Gen versions. See Gen Empoleon's 'A Guide to DPP Trick Room' for some extended reading. The idea has always been to have a few sturdy Pokemon to set up and refresh Trick Room and then to have a few Pokemon with sky-high offensive capabilities, poor speed and usable bulk who can take advantage of the warped dimensions.
Who learns Trick Room?
I will leave out stuff like Abra and Gastly but I'm going to mention certain pre-evolutions on account of the new item which raises the Defense and SpD of unevolved Pokemon.
Alakazam
Slowbro
Gengar
Hypno
Exeggutor
Starmie
Mr. Mime
Jynx
Porygon
Mewtwo
Mew
Xatu
Espeon
Slowking
Girafarig
Porygon2
Stantler
Celebi
Gardevoir
Grumpig
Spinda
Solrock
Lunatone
Claydol
Kecleon
Banette
Dusclops
Chimecho
Jirachi
Deoxys
Mismagius
Bronzong
Porygon-z
Gallade
Dusknoir
Uxie
Azelf
Mesprit
Dialga
Palkia
Cresselia
Arceus
Victini
Musharna (Psychic @ 116/55/85/107/95/29)
Kokoromori (Psychic/Flying @ 67/57/55/77/114)
Tabunne (Normal @ 103/60/85/60/86/50)
Erufuun (Grass @ 60/67/85/77/75/116)
Shinpora (Psychic/Flying @ 72/58/80/103/80/97)
Desukan (Ghost @ 58/50/145/95/105/30)
Gochiruzeru (Psychic @ 70/55/95/95/110/65)
Rankurusu (Psychic @ 110/65/75/125/85/30)
Burungeru (Water/Ghost @ 100/60/70/85/105/60)
Gigigear (Steel @ 60/100/115/70/85/90)
Oobemu (Psychic @ 75/75/75/125/95/40)
Shanderaa (Ghost/Fire @ 60/55/90/145/90/80)
Meloetta (Normal/Psychic @ 100/77/77/128/128/90)
Some notes...
- Dusclops is an interesting 'new' addition thanks to the Pre-Evolution Stone. Whilst holding it, and running 252 HP and 252 Def with a Relaxed nature, he sports defenses of 284/591/444.
- Porygon2 benefits from the Pre-Evolution store too. This, combined with Trace and Recover means he will likely see a lot of use on Trick Room teams.
- Slowbro, Slowking and Tabunne possess the fantastic combination of Trick Room and Regeneration allowing them to twist the dimensions and then heal 33% of their health as they switch out.
- Rankurusu seems to be created with setting up Trick Room in mind. Decent defensive stats, Magic Guard and Recover allow him to refresh Trick Room with ease. 125 SpA and 30 Spe also allow him to deal damage if he chooses to do so.
- Exeggutor's DW ability, Harvest, allows him to use a berry infinitely. Slap a Lum Berry on him, teach him Rest and you've got a sturdy, powerful Trick Room user with the perfect recovery move and immunity to all status + confusion.
- My favorite Trick Room user is:
Celebi @ Lagging Tail
Relaxed 0 Spe IV (incase of Knock Off I guess?)
252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpD
- Trick Room
- Recover
- U-turn
- Leaf Storm / filler move of choice.
Lagging Tail negates the effects of Trick Room and ensures that Celebi will always go last no matter what. This allows Celebi to set up Trick Room, absorb a hit and U-turn out getting your sweeper in unscathed. This is invaluable if you're using a frail TR sweeper such as Marowak or Rampardos. Legendary bulk, Natural Cure, useful resistances and Recover allow Celebi to usually refresh Trick Room a few times throughout the match.
- Your Trick Room user needn't be so defensive (and arguably useless outside of it's primary role). Such examples are OTR Bronzong and Trick Room Slowking.
- Another example of a Trick Room user who can fulfil other roles is the Dual Screen Uxie that -Life- posted:
-Life- said:Uxie @ Light Clay
Levitate
Jolly 252/0/4/0/0/252
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Trick Room
- U-Turn
Basically throw up an appropriate screen against something slower, TR, and U-Turn out to a sweeper. The speed EVs are necessary to get in a slow U-Turn under TR and throw up screens quickly outside of it. I don't think I need to mention how useful screens are for set-up and sweeps with Trick Room.
Hurry up and get to the new sweepers!
ok >_<
A Trick Room sweeper needs to be able to deal huge amounts of damage and have poor speed. Ideally they won't need to use a boosting move because by the time you've used Trick Room, switched in your sweeper and used your boosting move you only have 2 turns to sweep left. However, there are scenarios where boosting would be beneficial...but the best TR sweepers are the ones who aren't reliant on it. Anyway, here's a few of the new Pokemon that could see use on Trick Room teams.
Roopushin @ Flame Orb
Guts
Brave 0 Spe IV
120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SpD
- Hammer Arm
- Stone Edge
- Facade
- Payback / Mach Punch
- Flame Orb in conjunction with 140 base Atk means Roopushin is operating with 624 Atk.
- Absolute minimum speed of 85.
- Great defensive stats of 381 HP, 226 Def and 200 Special Defense.
- Can't really handle Ghosts because Payback sucks during Trick Room.
- He looks nails.
Gigaisu @ Life Orb
Sand Strength
Brave 0 Spe IV
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Heavy Bomber
- Explosion
- Should only be used if you can guarantee Sandstorm support.
- Sand Strength boosts the power of Stone Edge, Earthquake and Heavy Bomber by 30% (correct me if I'm wrong there please)
- 406 Atk, 25 base Spe makes him one of the slowest Pokemon on the game.
- With Sandstorm support you're looking at 374 HP / 296 Def / 265 SpD.
- Explosion, even with the nerf, is a good move for a Trick Room user as it helps you to dictate the flow of play. Trick Room about to end? No problem, just explode to hopefully kill something and then bring your TR user back out.
- He also looks nails.
Emboar @ Leftovers / Expert Belt
Reckless
Brave 0 Spe IV
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
- Flare Blitz
- Head Smash
- Wild Bolt
- Hammer Arm
- Reckless + 120 Atk + hits 10/17 types super effective means he has a very high damage output.
- 121 min speed. Not super-slow but enough to get the job done. Only base 40 Spe and below Pokemon will be slower.
- Dies from recoil very quickly but will hopefully have caused a whole load of damage before that happens.
- Not very bulky. There's probably a much better defensive spread but the HP investment helps with the recoil.
- Looks better from behind, don't you think?
Kurimugan @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Rough Skin
Brave 0 Spe IV
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Superpower / Fire Fang
- Not the best movepool in the world but Outrage is the main attraction.
- Choice items are usually not ideal on Trick Room teams but the idea would be to weaken your opponents Steels and then spam Choice Band Outrage later on to clean up. Choice Band STAB Outrage from 120 Atk is terrifying especially when you can't outrun it.
- 48 base Spe means he's even slower than Slowbro whilst under Trick Room.
- 358/217/216 defenses are quite impressive.
Baffuron @ Life Orb
Reckless
Brave 0 Spe IV
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
- Afro Breaker
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Wild Bolt
- Reasonaly high attack backed up by a fantastic STAB move in Reckless Afro Breaker.
- 350 Atk, 103 minimum speed.
- 394 HP / 226 Def / 226 SpD make for a very bulky sweeper.
-----CPU said:
Shibirudon @ Life Orb
Levitate
Brave/Quiet 0 Speed IV
252 Attack, 252 Special Attack
-Wild Bolt/Thunderbolt
-Flamethrower
-Grass Knot/Dragon Claw/Crunch
-Grass Knot/Dragon Claw/Crunch
Shibirudon's a beautiful Mixed Attacker in Trick Room. Though it's not incredibly slow, only reaching 94 Speed, its Attacking stats and Movepool make it quite a threat. Wild Bolt or Thunderbolt are fairly self-explanatory; whichever one you pick is the premier STAB move. Flamethrower hits Grass, Steel, Ice (lol), and Bug Pokemon hard. Coverage is next. Grass Knot is recommended, as it hits the common Ground switch-ins to Shibirudon fairly hard, since they're usually heavy. Dragon Claw, naturally, nails the Dragon Pokemon that resist both Electric and Fire attacks, whereas Crunch hurts Ghosts and Psychic Types. Some other weaker coverage moves that it gets are Rock Slide, Brick Break, Flash Cannon, and U-turn.
Oobemu @ Life Orb
Synchronize
Quiet 2 Speed IV, 30 all else
252 Special Attack, 120 HP, 136 Defense
-Psychic/Psycho Shock
-Thunderbolt
-Energy Ball/Shadow Ball
-Hidden Power [Fighting]
The weird EVs are there for Hidden Power Fighting, which is necessary for coverage. Its high Special Attack allows it to hit quite hard, and not many things are going to outspeed it. Psycho Shock is an option so that Oobemu's not entirely walled by Specially Defensive Pokemon. There's not much too this set except to hit hard and prey on weaknesses. Psychic moves hit Fighting and Poison types; Thunderbolt hits Flying and Water; Energy Ball will also hit Water Types, but also hurts Ground and Rock Pokemon. Shadow Ball hits Ghosts and other Psychic types. Hidden Power Fighting rounds the set, and hits Pokemon such as Sazandra that would otherwise wall you.
These new fearsome sweepers will be joined by Trick Room icons such as Marowak, Rampardos, Ursaring, Rhyperior, Clamperl, Machamp and the rest of the crew. There might even be a few new faces in there (Adaptability Crawdaunt perhaps?).
So this thread is for everybody to discuss Trick Room in the 5th Gen, post TR orientated sets, share their experiences with Trick Room or explain why you feel Trick Room is a gimmick if you're that way inclined. What about the possible relation between weather teams and Trick Room? Trick Room seems to be a death sentence to a Rain Dance team and makes Doryuuzu dead weight on a Sandstorm team. And could a Weather-based Trick Room team work?
Oh and one last thing - I know that there's no Damp Rock equivalent for Trick Room. I don't need to be reminded of it in every single post. ;p