I find that I generally try to out-think an obstacle first rather than trying to out-level it just because I enjoy making strategies. With respect to Nuzlockes, the high (permanent) risk and limited options push it away from being able to use more interesting strategies unless the extra rules are at a point where brute force is completely disabled. I usually run with themed teams, restricting enough to have a real weakness (generally lack of type diversity) while still being capable of getting around a problem instead of through it. Though there was the one time I tried a damageless playthrough because I saw one that made heavy use of overleveling and thought I could do better.
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
Challenge is not intrinsically tied to genre.
Precisely. Fortnite is to shooters like... Pokemon is to JRPGs. Also I'm convinced Arkm doesn't understand what a straw man is let alone the proper fundamentals of debating. They have earned my ever so rarely used spot in my ignore list.
As much as I'd love to play a more difficult main series Pokemon game, I've come to realise that when it comes to in-game trainer rosters, I prefer it when we get strong theming and unusual strategies, even if they compromise the overall strength of the team.
I've been playing some fangames lately and the trainers that stick out in my memory are the ones with a really fun and cohesive concept behind their team (ideally with a connection to their character and/or backstory), even if they weren't the most challenging fights to win.
I don't think you necessarily have to choose one or the other in every instance, but there's a lot of potential for indirect storytelling in these little details.
I've been playing some fangames lately and the trainers that stick out in my memory are the ones with a really fun and cohesive concept behind their team (ideally with a connection to their character and/or backstory), even if they weren't the most challenging fights to win.
I don't think you necessarily have to choose one or the other in every instance, but there's a lot of potential for indirect storytelling in these little details.
I've been advocating for this for a while now.
The problem with most major battles in Pokémon is that they're quite frankly bland and not that different from what you do the entire game. At no point in a regular run you're encouraged to try and strategize even a little.
This is why Emerald Tate and Liza is one of the best battles in the franchise despite their roster being thoroughly trash. Sure, I'd appreciate a less convoluted difficulty setting than what BW2 had to offer, even though that was mostly a grindfest, but latest games just don't have enough memorable battles.
Want an example? Let's do a show of hands here, who remembers Melony's team without checking it? The steel guy in Alola's E4? (Man, I don't even remember his name
), Diantha's? Come on, she was the Kalos Champion, someone here gotta know, right?Probably not.
Does anyone remember Raihan's gym battle though? Was that an unsurmountable challenge? Maybe mildly difficult? Nah, let's be honest, it was piss easy like the rest of SwSh.
I rest my case.
Nah I just remember him being Leon’s eternal bitch before we all came along.
I'm trying my best.Let's do a show of hands here, who remembers Melony's team without checking it? The steel guy in Alola's E4? (Man, I don't even remember his name
Probably not.
Melony has G-Max Lapras. I believe she also has Eiscue, as her son has its counterpart Stonjourner.
The Alola PC guy... let's be real, naming any PC person other than Bill feels like an impossible question, and I read Bulbapedia a lot. But I got him in Pokémon Masters, so oooooo... Alolan Dugtrio?
Diantha has *deep breath* Aurorus, Tyrantrum, Hawlucha, Average Size Gourgeist, uhhhhhh... Goodra, and Mega-Gardevoir. Where is my prize?
This is the one I must disagree on.
Despite me bitching thoroughly about Diantha's difficulty recently, I actually like her team a lot even if it isn't that strong or well-utilised. It's diverse and colourful and uses a lot of Kalos's best-designed species. It's disappointing that it reuses Grant and Korrina's signature species, but I think it's a very well-balanced lineup (though it does give her an interesting bias toward Rock* which is unusual for a Champion).
Granted, this may be because I read a theory that her team reflects different film genres:
- Hawlucha is martial arts/action
- Tyrantrum is disaster/monster
- Aurorus is fantasy/historical
- Goodra is children's/family/comedy
- Gourgeist is horror
- Gardevoir is romance
*and Dragon
Want an example? Let's do a show of hands here, who remembers Melony's team without checking it? The steel guy in Alola's E4? (Man, I don't even remember his name
Dianthea is easy ! 2 Fossils + M-Gardevoir and Goodra/Hawlucha/Gourgeist
Melony ... Has D-Lapras, and I think Frosmoth and G-Dardarmitan and Eiscue !
The Steel Guy in Alola 4 ? He's only in USUM IIRC It's Moleyne and ... Magnezone / Dugtrio / Metagross ? I forget others. And he gave us Z-Steal Crystal IIRC
Magnezone, A-Dugtrio, Metagross, Klefki, Bisharp
You have Melony's team correct.
You have Melony's team correct.
Aaaaaaaaaand we have a winner!!!
Today's prize is a wonderful hacked mon idea! Give it up for...
Pain Split + Final Gambit Shedinja!
This sounds more illegal than Lance's Dragonite with Barrier.Pain Split + Final Gambit Shedinja!
Honestly, most champion's teams are pretty good. The exception is Wallace, with arguments for Alder, Lance, or Hau also being bad. Ignoring rematches:
Blue: Pidgeot, Alakazam, Rhydon, Gyarados, Arcanine, Exeggutor(sub in starter). So good that it became his official team. Lots of powerhouses given the generation, but even now they can show up as a high-end fight and be reasonably challenging(granted, gen 1 bias for improvements helps with that).
Lance(GSC/HGSS): Gyarados, Charizard, Aerodactyl, Dragonite x3. Ugh. Thing is, this is a scary team. And the movesets are actually good. But it doesn't have Kingdra, it doesn't have Tyranitar, and it does have 4 mons weak to ice and 3 weak to electric, so you can just sweep. It's mono-flying, not mono-dragon, which is a constant Lance issue.
Steven: Skarmory, Claydol, Aggron, Cradily, Armaldo, Metagross. More a mineral specialist than a steel specialist, but they're powerful mons with good coverage and no real shared weaknesses. All bulky enough to prevent just sweeping through, and with Toxic to prevent setup spam, it's about as good as you can do with the constraints of the character.
Wallace: Wailord, Tentacruel, Ludicolo, Whiscash, Gyarados, Milotic. Just what this region needed, more water. They're all good mons, and given they share types there's plenty of ways to avoid electrics or grasses, but mono-water after the player has beaten a bunch of water routes, a water gym, Team Aqua, and Kyogre is just sad. There's not even an attempt to make a viable rain team, which would at least have been interesting.
Cynthia: Spiritomb, Roserade, Gastrodon, Lucario, Milotic, Garchomp. The team and champion everyone talks about. So good they don't bother changing it for rematches. The first non-specialist champion since Blue, starting a trend of them. Good coverage, strong mons, and it tests your team in multiple ways. Perfect, no notes.
Alder: Accelgor, Bouffalant, Druddigon, Vanniluxe, Escavalier, Volcarona. All new mons is nice, the ones he chose are not. 3 bugs, no pseudo-legendary, and some baffling choices...I'm not surprised they replaced him for BW2
Iris: Hydreigon, Druddigon, Archeops, Aggron, Lapras, Haxorus. Dragon-focused, but with minimal type overlap, great coverage, strong mons, no repeats. It's not memorable, in that you're likely to remember it as Dragon spam and very offensive, but it's strong. And it actually has 2 ice resistances. Lance, learn from her.
Diantha: Hawlucha, Tyrantrum, Aurorus, Gourgeist, Goodra, Mega-Gardevoir. 5/6 mons are new to the region(and MGard is arguable), mix of physical and special offense with great coverage on each, some reasonable bulk, it's a solid team. It loses to good setup and this gen as a whole is relatively easy, but I don't think there's obvious ways to improve it.
Kuiki: Lycanroc, Ninetails-A, Braviary, Snorlax, Magnezone, Starter. Again, lots of fast powerful mons. But lots of non-Alola mons, no exploiting anything like Aurora Veil or similar, and it's mostly mons that go down fast. There's not even any subtle or strong theming to justify it. Of course, rival trainers were never the challenge of this gen. Fine, but could be better with a bit of effort.
Hau: RaichuA, Eeveeloution, Tauros, Noivern, Crabominable, Starter. It's not better. Still decent mons, no shared weaknesses, but also no theming, no major strategy, and not bulky enough to avoid being crushed. Given the higher power of the player in USUM, this is just not good enough. Needs a complete rebuild of Hau's team throughout the game to fix, though, so I get why they didn't do that. Oh well, title defense and Ultra-Necrozma are the real challenges of this game.
Leon: Aegislash, Dragapult, Haxorus, Charizard, Starter, Rando. I like this team because of what it says. This is a team you as the player might make. Pseudolegend, two broken mons, starter, Gen1 gift mon, fill out the type coverage. Going up against it, more than any rival, is supposed to be like going up against yourself. Every non-starter has perfect coverage, some of them are reasonably bulky, and there's very little way for the AI to screw it up. It can only be so challenging because Dynamax, but I really like this team.
Blue: Pidgeot, Alakazam, Rhydon, Gyarados, Arcanine, Exeggutor(sub in starter). So good that it became his official team. Lots of powerhouses given the generation, but even now they can show up as a high-end fight and be reasonably challenging(granted, gen 1 bias for improvements helps with that).
Lance(GSC/HGSS): Gyarados, Charizard, Aerodactyl, Dragonite x3. Ugh. Thing is, this is a scary team. And the movesets are actually good. But it doesn't have Kingdra, it doesn't have Tyranitar, and it does have 4 mons weak to ice and 3 weak to electric, so you can just sweep. It's mono-flying, not mono-dragon, which is a constant Lance issue.
Steven: Skarmory, Claydol, Aggron, Cradily, Armaldo, Metagross. More a mineral specialist than a steel specialist, but they're powerful mons with good coverage and no real shared weaknesses. All bulky enough to prevent just sweeping through, and with Toxic to prevent setup spam, it's about as good as you can do with the constraints of the character.
Wallace: Wailord, Tentacruel, Ludicolo, Whiscash, Gyarados, Milotic. Just what this region needed, more water. They're all good mons, and given they share types there's plenty of ways to avoid electrics or grasses, but mono-water after the player has beaten a bunch of water routes, a water gym, Team Aqua, and Kyogre is just sad. There's not even an attempt to make a viable rain team, which would at least have been interesting.
Cynthia: Spiritomb, Roserade, Gastrodon, Lucario, Milotic, Garchomp. The team and champion everyone talks about. So good they don't bother changing it for rematches. The first non-specialist champion since Blue, starting a trend of them. Good coverage, strong mons, and it tests your team in multiple ways. Perfect, no notes.
Alder: Accelgor, Bouffalant, Druddigon, Vanniluxe, Escavalier, Volcarona. All new mons is nice, the ones he chose are not. 3 bugs, no pseudo-legendary, and some baffling choices...I'm not surprised they replaced him for BW2
Iris: Hydreigon, Druddigon, Archeops, Aggron, Lapras, Haxorus. Dragon-focused, but with minimal type overlap, great coverage, strong mons, no repeats. It's not memorable, in that you're likely to remember it as Dragon spam and very offensive, but it's strong. And it actually has 2 ice resistances. Lance, learn from her.
Diantha: Hawlucha, Tyrantrum, Aurorus, Gourgeist, Goodra, Mega-Gardevoir. 5/6 mons are new to the region(and MGard is arguable), mix of physical and special offense with great coverage on each, some reasonable bulk, it's a solid team. It loses to good setup and this gen as a whole is relatively easy, but I don't think there's obvious ways to improve it.
Kuiki: Lycanroc, Ninetails-A, Braviary, Snorlax, Magnezone, Starter. Again, lots of fast powerful mons. But lots of non-Alola mons, no exploiting anything like Aurora Veil or similar, and it's mostly mons that go down fast. There's not even any subtle or strong theming to justify it. Of course, rival trainers were never the challenge of this gen. Fine, but could be better with a bit of effort.
Hau: RaichuA, Eeveeloution, Tauros, Noivern, Crabominable, Starter. It's not better. Still decent mons, no shared weaknesses, but also no theming, no major strategy, and not bulky enough to avoid being crushed. Given the higher power of the player in USUM, this is just not good enough. Needs a complete rebuild of Hau's team throughout the game to fix, though, so I get why they didn't do that. Oh well, title defense and Ultra-Necrozma are the real challenges of this game.
Leon: Aegislash, Dragapult, Haxorus, Charizard, Starter, Rando. I like this team because of what it says. This is a team you as the player might make. Pseudolegend, two broken mons, starter, Gen1 gift mon, fill out the type coverage. Going up against it, more than any rival, is supposed to be like going up against yourself. Every non-starter has perfect coverage, some of them are reasonably bulky, and there's very little way for the AI to screw it up. It can only be so challenging because Dynamax, but I really like this team.
Does anyone else not like romhacks that much? They're either "kitchen sink" games with everything from older games or "challenge games" where rocket tag syndrome is at its worst.
The ROM hacks I've played have come in three varieties; comically edgy story hacks that seem to have been written by 14 year olds, "difficulty" hacks that aren't actually difficult if you have a basic understanding of the game (Drayano hacks fall into this category), and "difficulty" hacks that create the facade of difficulty by rigging the game against the player and turning it into even more of a gambling simulator than it already is (Kaizo hacks fall into this category). None of these difficulty hacks actually introduce any genuine difficulty; as someone said on one of these threads this is kind of an unavoidable flaw of turn-based RPGs; they will essentially only ever boil down to game knowledge and RNG.
I have yet to play a main series hack I genuinely consider good. I'll give a concession to Insurgence; I think it definitely has elements of all three of these categories, with an edgy plot and a janky idea of difficulty, but at least it's original compared to the others.
I've been advocating for this for a while now.
The problem with most major battles in Pokémon is that they're quite frankly bland and not that different from what you do the entire game. At no point in a regular run you're encouraged to try and strategize even a little.
This is why Emerald Tate and Liza is one of the best battles in the franchise despite their roster being thoroughly trash. Sure, I'd appreciate a less convoluted difficulty setting than what BW2 had to offer, even though that was mostly a grindfest, but latest games just don't have enough memorable battles.
Want an example? Let's do a show of hands here, who remembers Melony's team without checking it? The steel guy in Alola's E4? (Man, I don't even remember his name
Probably not.
Does anyone remember Raihan's gym battle though? Was that an unsurmountable challenge? Maybe mildly difficult? Nah, let's be honest, it was piss easy like the rest of SwSh.
I rest my case.
I feel like the gym leaders/elite four members of newer generations have just been weird. Their teams have either been
1) repetitive with popular mons over and over again (there are several trainers associated with Lucario: Maylene, Korrina, Cynthia, not counting random trainers that have it for rematches). This also is hurt by their focus on giving gimmicks to old Pokemon... like even though Galar had a few interesting Ghost-types, Allister's ace became Gengar (yet again)(same for Melony too). I think they would have been a lot more memorable if Melony's ace had been like, Frosmoth or Eiscue instead of Lapras for like the 5th time. We have seen these Pokemon so many times that it just makes the rest of their teams forgettable too.
or 2) just focusing on 1-2 mons as their signature aces with the rest of their teams being forgettable fillers that aren't totally trash. Does Nessa *really* have any Pokemon other than Drednaw? Why were there two Dark-type trainers in Galar yet none of them used Thievul? (because it's not very good probably). When I say mons that aren't trash idk if I'm just misremembering but I feel like in the past Gym Leaders had a lot more sucky Pokemon simply because they matched their type, meanwhile Kabu of course had Arcanine again instead of any Fire-type Pokemon that hasn't been featured a few times already or at all (Heatmor, Talonflame, Oricorio, toaster Rotom, etc). Like he's from Hoenn, isn't he? He should have had a Blaziken! Gordie's team I think is a good job because even though it's forgettable, at least Shuckle and Barbaracle got some spotlight. Just to put this out there, but I feel like I would be really surprised if Grusha (the new Ice-type gym leader) had mons like Delibird, Glaceon, etc... if he has any old Pokemon he's probably going to have stuff like Swinub, Snover, and/or Cryogonal (or god forbid another Lapras lol). Same for the Grass-type dude, probably no Sunflora, Carnivine, or Tropius but this dude is definitely gonna have a Roselia. If we have an Electric-type gym leader they are definitely going to have a Magnemite and/or Voltorb instead of any of the 5 Electric-types that were introduced in Galar alone but were not used by a gym leader yet obviously.
I feel like it might have something to do with the shift recently of portraying game characters as more like actual "characters" (idk how else to call this) that they can market and reuse multiple times. Do you guys remember the episodes in the anime with any of the Hoenn elite four? I sure don't. Characters would maybe show up for an episode or two then never be spoke of again (except for Ash's traveling companions). There were no merch related to them at all. Nowadays characters show up multiple times in the anime and have a lot more marketing... before Alola, only a few gym leaders would be regulars, but then all of a sudden Pokemon became more of an ensemble cast and there was constant merch for all of them. So if they have popular Pokemon or only 1-2 that they have to focus on, it's easier to bring them up repeatedly. Idk.
There are a few exceptions like Raihan having a weather gimmick that I appreciated as well... it's surprising that he is still called a Dragon-type trainer but only had 1 new Dragon-type Pokemon (and none of the fossils! and there were 6 new Dragon-types introduced this gen!) but he was still memorable.
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I played some good 386 hacks back in the day. When the only change is "We make everything available early and up most of the main opponents to a team of 6" the default result is just "standard pokemon game+", which is enough to keep things fresh.
Anything more than that, you're counting on one amateur writer/coder/game designer to make something better than what an entire team of people could do. Not saying it's impossible, but it's a tall ask. There's a reason that most mods of popular games are "I fixed this one element". Sometimes it's a big element like redesigning all castles, sometimes it's a single clipping animation, but it's a very clear focus. "I rewrote the entire main story, all dialogue, and rebalanced every fight" is not a reasonable goal for one person, and the fact that the project gets completed is honestly impressive, but the result is the usual quality level of those attempts is low.
Yeah. Again, I don't get why they don't do more gimmick gym battles. People remember Stadium Koga. Not fondly, but he's memorable. Give us weather spam, actual VoltTurn, competent Doubles, something. And if you make their ace a new mon, you cement that association in people's minds, as well as demonstrating the mon's strengths for players to see and learn from.
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Yes! Emerald Tate and Liza is the perfect example! Unfortunately my brain is filled with useless knowledge so I actually did remember all those other trainer rosters (yes, even Molayne's), but just because I remembered them doesn't make them memorable haha.I've been advocating for this for a while now.
The problem with most major battles in Pokémon is that they're quite frankly bland and not that different from what you do the entire game. At no point in a regular run you're encouraged to try and strategize even a little.
This is why Emerald Tate and Liza is one of the best battles in the franchise despite their roster being thoroughly trash. Sure, I'd appreciate a less convoluted difficulty setting than what BW2 had to offer, even though that was mostly a grindfest, but latest games just don't have enough memorable battles.
Want an example? Let's do a show of hands here, who remembers Melony's team without checking it? The steel guy in Alola's E4? (Man, I don't even remember his name
Probably not.
Does anyone remember Raihan's gym battle though? Was that an unsurmountable challenge? Maybe mildly difficult? Nah, let's be honest, it was piss easy like the rest of SwSh.
I rest my case.
I don't even mind when the strategy of a team is so convoluted, low-impact, or barely-there that it's practically pointless. Gardenia's Turtwig knows Reflect and Sunny Day in Platinum, which together can make Roserade and especially Cherrim pretty tough to take down... but only for a couple of turns at most. I still think it's neat that there was an attempt at synergy there, even if so many of the other design choices for that battle are highly questionable.
(personal wishlist-y sidenote: they should've given Roserade Weather Ball over Poison Sting. It'd be a potential nasty surprise for players who sweep through her team while Sunny Day is still active, while also doubling as the neutral coverage her team so desperately needs outside of Sun)
FRLG Lorelei's another example where I like what they were doing but they could've pushed it further. In her first battle Dewgong and Cloyster know Hail, which does very little for her team besides allowing her Cloyster to stall for chip damage with Dive and Protect (none of her mons even know Blizzard). In the rematch Hail is gone and now Cloyster knows Rain Dance, which helps her Ice mons defensively, buffs her Surfs and gives Lapras a perfectly accurate Thunder (provided it comes out while it's still raining). It definitely doesn't make the battle crazy-difficult or anything, but it really provides a sense of progression between the two rosters.
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And the ways a lot of ROMhacks try to buff mons are so uncreative and boring. Everything vaguely reptilian is now a Dragon-type! Everything with a connection to magic or healing or beauty is now a Fairy-type! Every final evolution is boosted to minimum 500 BST! Everything gets a busted ability!
The devs of these games also seem deathly afraid of having the tension of their big bad boss battles undermined by cheese strats, so they end up either making up absurd additional mechanics to protect their precious creation or they funnel the player down a narrow corridor so they don't have enough options to creatively break the boss fight.
There are basically only two fangames (one ROMhack and one RPGmaker game) that I've properly enjoyed, and even then the ROMhack had some very obvious AI issues that made the game way easier than I think was intended.
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Huh, I'm seemingly of the opposite opinion of most people in this thread when it comes to romhacks (though I guess this is the unpopular opinions thread...) I much prefer romhacks of the original games, to the point where I genuinely can't go back to the original versions of the game for some of them. The problem is that, like with many things, the vast majority of romhacks are pretty poor. I don't fault the creators of these romhacks for this - many are just people, usually high school or college kids, trying out romhacking with some of their favorite childhood games. Also, as has already been pointed out, something made by one person as a hobby usually is going to pale in comparison (or at least, production value) compared to a professional game studio.
Instead of continuing to vomit words about romhacking as a whole, I'll just talk about some of my favorite romhacks in particular and why I enjoy them so much.
Instead of continuing to vomit words about romhacking as a whole, I'll just talk about some of my favorite romhacks in particular and why I enjoy them so much.
- Crystal Clear: I think this is one of the most popular romhacks, and deservedly so - experimenting with a fully open-world Kanto-Johto, while still maintaining compatibility with Stadium 2 and Bank, is a pretty remarkable feat. It's far from a perfect game - in particular, the level curve is a bit awkward, which is further exacerbated by how easy it is to travel from gym to gym - but given the hardware and goal of the game, I'd say it's one of the most ambitious romhacks and is definitely worth experiencing, even if you're skeptical about the concept.
- FireRed Throwback: The intention with this romhack is very simple, but very effective: Catch 'em all. All of the first 250 Pokemon are available in the wild for you to capture, and that's it. This is a nice and simple hack that lets you undertake the original adventure of FRLG with a fresh, yet familiar coat of paint. It also features some neat QoL additions, but overall it's a pretty vanilla hack- and sometimes, good old vanilla is the flavor you're gonna want!
- Drayano's hacks: I bundle Drayano's hacks all in one because his design philosophy is pretty consistent across all of them, just improved over time. His romhacks are often described as challenge hacks, but I thin that's a pretty poor descriptor. It is true that the game is made more difficult via improved teams, but the AI itself is untouched and it's still pretty simple if you know what you're doing. The intention is more to revitalize the experience of the vanilla games by adding in QoL features, implementing the Fairy type where applicable, and not only making every 'mon in that generation available, but making adjustments where necessary to make them more fun to use. (There's also a patch that turns off any changes to the 'mons themselves, if you don't like that!) Personally, if a Drayano hack (or a hack by Buffel Saft, a similar creator) exists for a game, I'll pretty much always stick to it over the vanilla game just because it's a more polished and well-tuned experience overall.
- Radical Red: This is one of two highly notable romhacks at the moment, and has earned a reputation for being extremely challenging. This is definitely true on Hardcore mode, but it's also gained a bit of an intimidating reputation when it's not really warranted - there is an easy mode and normal mode offered for more casual players, after all. I think the best way to describe this hack is like a boss rush - training Pokemon is extremely easy thanks to the DexNav and various QoL features, but the only hurdle is building a team to handle the next gym. It's certainly not for everyone, but if you're in the mood for a challenge with 8 generations' worth of Pokemon to work with (and around), this might be up your alley.
- Unbound: Along with the aforementioned Radical Red, this is developed via the very powerful CFRU engine, which has allowed romhackers to absolutely revolutionize GBA romhacking - yet, unlike Radical Red, this game takes place in an entirely new region called Borrius. There are no fakemon, but there's a vast Pokedex and a brand new region out there that provides a fresh experience. To get this out of the way: yes, the story is hilariously edgy, and I advise either skipping it or reading it for laughs, but outside of that, it's an amazing experience. The Mission system in particular adds a lot to the game, with many more hours of sidequests and content to complete. It's an extremely well-made game, and I'd say it's the most unique romhack out there right now.
I'd also like to point out that my main interest is Fire Emblem, which has one of the most robust and vibrant romhacking communities I've ever seen for video games, so my perspective on romhacks might be a bit different from the 'average' Pokemon fan. But I do think that romhacks in the Pokemon community get a pretty bad rep, largely as a result of stinkers like Snakewood, Clover, and the Kaizo hacks giving them a reputation for edginess and BS difficulty. I'm not saying this thread falls into those assumptions, but if anyone reading this hasn't checked out romhacks before, maybe try one from the list and see what you think!
even among ppl who agree with me that gen5 newmons set is worst or second worst, gen5 newmons set is overrated
even among ppl who agree with me that gen7 newmons set is pretty good, gen7 newmons set is underrated
i'll add some more elucidated thoughts so i'm not just listposting, but for the lists 1) i spent like 5 mins on them but 2) i tried to be objective-ish for vague "best for the franchise" type energy, eg i dislike lurantis and like heatmor but chose keep lurantis and remove heatmor. 3) im not really focusing on competitive scene implications here
explaining every single pick would take 10 hours to satisfy nobody, but more generally in this exercise, i found the gen5 mons to be even more derivative-ish than i thought. everyone knows about gigalith golem, swoobat crobat, etc, but what caught my eye is how replacable mons like jellicent and seismitoad felt. (side note: im not tryin to say "remove" mons are Unworthy of existing or saying you're Bad Taste if you dislike a "remove" mon. they have their advantages. i'm just looking at character bloat and trying to call it as i see it re: weight franchise advantage to keeping it vs franchise advantage to leaving more room for more mons.)
i hesitate to directly call mons like jellicent and seismitoad "derivative" because, even tho jellyfish and toad pokemon exist, they have clearly different vibes, typings, aims, etc. yet, mons like the above just didn't feel like they contribute that much. is pokemon that much worse if jellicent doesn't exist? i'd be hard pressed to say so. but for tentacruel, i'd be more inclined to. why? besides being a gen1 mon and having legacy factor, tent has this subtle energy to it. jellicent has cool edgy dex entries, sure, but plenty of mons do and can. maybe im missing something, but tentacruel feels more intricately put together in a way that lets it shine. this might help explain: tentacruel, in a literal sense, suffers from "this is a real-world animal" syndrome, it is a jellyfish, but i actually think jellicent is more afflicted by the syndrome.
tentacruel depends on its jellyfish anatomy features to create its menacing energy. its cap hiding those lurking eyes, its poised tentacles–these are integral. the design utility provided by these jellyfish body parts masks the fact that, you know, it's a real animal in pokemon. however, jellicent feels like... a ghost spirit taking the form of a jellyfish for the sake of taking the form of a jellyfish. how do jellicent's tentacles help its design? i dont know! i forget they exist! they prevent it from being SO top-heavy, i guess, but that top doesn't feel super effective either. any menacing energy from "its just this gaping blob of liquid... staring at me inhumanly" feels blunty by the goofy eyes and (especially) by the goofy mustache. the mustache also robs surface area that could contribute towards creepy empty water / empty space visualization.
talking about jellicent (i actually typed "jellyfish" by accident the first time... lol) also bleeds into my next less-immediately-obvious critique of gen5 dex: concept shallowness.
galvantula's species name is the elespider and thats what it is. its an electric spider. neat. is this concept shallowness unique to gen5? fuck no. but it feels more pervasive there. why am i picking on one individual pokemon to talk about a systemic problem? to explain more what i mean by "conceptual shallowness" by contrasting it with mimikyu, which i consider conceptually richer for reasons that may not be obvious. mimikyu basic concept is "ghost disguising as pikachu." maybe you look at that and think "that's barely more complex than galv!"
mimikyu has another concept dimension though: being a lovable loser! this concept dimension is continually strengthened throughout its design and beyond. let us count the ways:
1) its disguise is of flimsy, familiar, everyday cloth, and not some spooky ghost magic or ectoplasm or something
2) the disguise is of endearingly low physical quality, with different coloring from pikachu / crayon-like marks / busted mode
3) the disguise has endearingly low "spatial quality"; it erratically shifts and sways in-model, it doesnt move around like pikachu, and it has "busted" mode. it doesn't "idle behave" much like pikachu, in addition to not looking much like it
4) it tries to imitate pikachu, an immensely popular pokemon, a childlike yet relatable sentiment that inspires a caring instinct in players
5) it has a large head, short height, and large forward facing eyes, echoing a child
do you see all these varyingly subtle touches!? do you get how, for example, mimikyu's design would actually be worse and less effective if it was more pikachu-yellow colored?
what else does galvantula's concept and execution have going for it? ive heard some things, but nothing that's really struck me as compelling or greatly executed. i remember hearing something about its fur, static charge, and electricity generation? that's a neat starting point for further development, but i don't think it's executed super well. it's fairly shallow in galv (why should i care that it generates electricity one way vs another?), and the fur is unintuitively/artificially placed and ugly.
another one i remember is something about joltik needing to feed on electricity, but galvantula being the stronger and doing the opposite, outputting electricity to use in attacks. if i remember right, a neat detail, but nothing as strengthened and compelling as mimikyu's example. nothing i can tell about galvantula's design, or even its abilities and moves, paint it as eg protective towards joltiks or willing to share electricity with them. nothing about joltik's morphology seems to suggest a more thoughtful and rich change in electricity manipulation and feeding than "the electricity absorbing tick magically became the electricity outputting spider." maybe galvantula IS protective, and maybe it DOES have some rich morphological connection with joltik that i missed. but i would not have been able to notice without you telling me, which kind of indicates the problem. a trait to me is so much stronger, more interesting, and more impactful when it bleeds through the pokemon and is something you expect to naturally and organically discover by accident, not "oh someone on the internet told me an easter egg" or "i went hunting for nuggets," even if your easter egg is very cool.
happy to take questions on any of this / on placements / whatever. sorry for rantyness/confusingness
even among ppl who agree with me that gen7 newmons set is pretty good, gen7 newmons set is underrated
i'll add some more elucidated thoughts so i'm not just listposting, but for the lists 1) i spent like 5 mins on them but 2) i tried to be objective-ish for vague "best for the franchise" type energy, eg i dislike lurantis and like heatmor but chose keep lurantis and remove heatmor. 3) im not really focusing on competitive scene implications here
explaining every single pick would take 10 hours to satisfy nobody, but more generally in this exercise, i found the gen5 mons to be even more derivative-ish than i thought. everyone knows about gigalith golem, swoobat crobat, etc, but what caught my eye is how replacable mons like jellicent and seismitoad felt. (side note: im not tryin to say "remove" mons are Unworthy of existing or saying you're Bad Taste if you dislike a "remove" mon. they have their advantages. i'm just looking at character bloat and trying to call it as i see it re: weight franchise advantage to keeping it vs franchise advantage to leaving more room for more mons.)
i hesitate to directly call mons like jellicent and seismitoad "derivative" because, even tho jellyfish and toad pokemon exist, they have clearly different vibes, typings, aims, etc. yet, mons like the above just didn't feel like they contribute that much. is pokemon that much worse if jellicent doesn't exist? i'd be hard pressed to say so. but for tentacruel, i'd be more inclined to. why? besides being a gen1 mon and having legacy factor, tent has this subtle energy to it. jellicent has cool edgy dex entries, sure, but plenty of mons do and can. maybe im missing something, but tentacruel feels more intricately put together in a way that lets it shine. this might help explain: tentacruel, in a literal sense, suffers from "this is a real-world animal" syndrome, it is a jellyfish, but i actually think jellicent is more afflicted by the syndrome.
tentacruel depends on its jellyfish anatomy features to create its menacing energy. its cap hiding those lurking eyes, its poised tentacles–these are integral. the design utility provided by these jellyfish body parts masks the fact that, you know, it's a real animal in pokemon. however, jellicent feels like... a ghost spirit taking the form of a jellyfish for the sake of taking the form of a jellyfish. how do jellicent's tentacles help its design? i dont know! i forget they exist! they prevent it from being SO top-heavy, i guess, but that top doesn't feel super effective either. any menacing energy from "its just this gaping blob of liquid... staring at me inhumanly" feels blunty by the goofy eyes and (especially) by the goofy mustache. the mustache also robs surface area that could contribute towards creepy empty water / empty space visualization.
talking about jellicent (i actually typed "jellyfish" by accident the first time... lol) also bleeds into my next less-immediately-obvious critique of gen5 dex: concept shallowness.
galvantula's species name is the elespider and thats what it is. its an electric spider. neat. is this concept shallowness unique to gen5? fuck no. but it feels more pervasive there. why am i picking on one individual pokemon to talk about a systemic problem? to explain more what i mean by "conceptual shallowness" by contrasting it with mimikyu, which i consider conceptually richer for reasons that may not be obvious. mimikyu basic concept is "ghost disguising as pikachu." maybe you look at that and think "that's barely more complex than galv!"
mimikyu has another concept dimension though: being a lovable loser! this concept dimension is continually strengthened throughout its design and beyond. let us count the ways:
1) its disguise is of flimsy, familiar, everyday cloth, and not some spooky ghost magic or ectoplasm or something
2) the disguise is of endearingly low physical quality, with different coloring from pikachu / crayon-like marks / busted mode
3) the disguise has endearingly low "spatial quality"; it erratically shifts and sways in-model, it doesnt move around like pikachu, and it has "busted" mode. it doesn't "idle behave" much like pikachu, in addition to not looking much like it
4) it tries to imitate pikachu, an immensely popular pokemon, a childlike yet relatable sentiment that inspires a caring instinct in players
5) it has a large head, short height, and large forward facing eyes, echoing a child
do you see all these varyingly subtle touches!? do you get how, for example, mimikyu's design would actually be worse and less effective if it was more pikachu-yellow colored?
what else does galvantula's concept and execution have going for it? ive heard some things, but nothing that's really struck me as compelling or greatly executed. i remember hearing something about its fur, static charge, and electricity generation? that's a neat starting point for further development, but i don't think it's executed super well. it's fairly shallow in galv (why should i care that it generates electricity one way vs another?), and the fur is unintuitively/artificially placed and ugly.
another one i remember is something about joltik needing to feed on electricity, but galvantula being the stronger and doing the opposite, outputting electricity to use in attacks. if i remember right, a neat detail, but nothing as strengthened and compelling as mimikyu's example. nothing i can tell about galvantula's design, or even its abilities and moves, paint it as eg protective towards joltiks or willing to share electricity with them. nothing about joltik's morphology seems to suggest a more thoughtful and rich change in electricity manipulation and feeding than "the electricity absorbing tick magically became the electricity outputting spider." maybe galvantula IS protective, and maybe it DOES have some rich morphological connection with joltik that i missed. but i would not have been able to notice without you telling me, which kind of indicates the problem. a trait to me is so much stronger, more interesting, and more impactful when it bleeds through the pokemon and is something you expect to naturally and organically discover by accident, not "oh someone on the internet told me an easter egg" or "i went hunting for nuggets," even if your easter egg is very cool.
happy to take questions on any of this / on placements / whatever. sorry for rantyness/confusingness
From what I remember, when the Mega Kanto Starters were revealed, while some people felt it was odd they were pushing the Kanto Starters and not the Kalos Starters (this was the beginning of GF pushing of Gen I nostalgia so didn't has that much of a heavy backlash), all of them were generally liked. This includes MCY, since it looked like what an evolution of a Charizard would look like. But then when they revealed MCX via the Origins special, it received some backlash not only cause Charizard was being treated special (which was sort of a thing before then) but also because it didn't look that much different from a normal Charizard. Of course, when the games were released, MCX became the popular Charizard as it just generally played better while MCY was more a niche (sad for me as I like MCY more than MCX).
M-Lucario's got some criticism as it looked like a Lucario going through an "edgy" phase, but it was one of the early Mega shown so got a pass. Salamence was the 2nd wave of Mega and it didn't really receive much buzz I think because it was "sorta" expected (then again we also expected a Mega Milotic but that never came to fruition).
Let's be honest, a lot of Mega Pokemon was mainly a popularity contest or they had a "good idea/cool design" for a Mega Pokemon (which is probably where the few odder choices came from). Absol, Charizard, Lucario, and Salamence were all popular with Absol and Charizard needing it to become competitive; and Absol alone to be relative.
Hm, that could be an interesting idea. And depending on what Regi is fuses with it can alter its stats too:
Regigigas: 110/160/110/80/110/100//670
w/ Rock: 80/160/200/50/110/50//650
w/ Ice: 80/50/110/160/200/50//650
w/ Steel: 80/120/140/120/140/50//650
w/ Eleki: 80/135/50/135/50/200//650
w/ Draco: 200/135/50/135/50/80//650
Not sure what Ability it would have, I would agree the Hidden Abilities of the other titans but Steel would be getting the short end of the stick as they gave it Light Metal (yeah, because I'm sure Registeel was really worried about getting Low Kicked; which, BTW, would only decrease Low Kick from doing 120 Power to 100 Power, SO worth not having something like Filter or Bulletproof). Then again I guess it isn't any worse off than Regidraco who they gave 200 HP to but kept its defenses at 50 each; why?
Another idea with Slow Start. Honestly, 670 is just 10 one under the other uber Legendaries (and the same BST as Kyogre and Groudon). Yet they don't get a debilitating Ability, so if they're going to keep Slow Start on Regigigas I say buff it. Okay, so it starts with half Speed, Attack, and Special Attack. BUT, instead of it wearing off depending on the number of turns, it wears off if Regigigas is attacked. And that's where the fun begins, cause one attacked Regigigas wakes up and it's Speed, Attack, and Special Attack INCREASES by 50%. However it can be returned to its "Slow" state if switched out, put to Sleep, or Frozen.
I can't help but feel this might not be the best example to use.
Actually, to some, the Pikaclones would be a good example that slapping on an extra Type to a design for the sake of it doesn't always work. While each have their fans I'm sure, the extra Type doesn't really help rise them above mediocrity the Pikaclones are known for. Heck, the most notable Pikaclone in recent years was one of the pure Electric-types (and not for being an Electric-type; Pachirisu just so happened to fill the niche of being a bulky Follow Me user)!
And they might have taken that lesson to heart as Pawmi is a pure Electric-type
Let's agree to disagree.
I personally think its alright, if anything it makes the Berries more exotic. So the Pokemon world does have normal food, and it makes sense we really didn't see any of it because up till now the player had no need of them. Real food was only introduced in order to create different Curry flavors, and we still used the Berries as a flavor/effect enhancer (infact each Berry flavor has its own description).
FUN FACT I LEARNED TODAY:
So, before Gen V, in addition to a generic bag description, Berries also have a Tag Description which gave a bit more flavor text about them. This is where those Legendary descriptions above came from. However, they stopped doing the Tag Descriptions in Gen V, so when they introduced new Berries in Gen VI (Roseli, Kee, and Maranga) we had no idea how they were like, used, or any other trivia about them.
... BUT I just learned that, to show just how bizarrely indepth they went with the Curry mechanic, GF had given all Berries an additional description during Curry making! Finally we now know a bit more about the Roseli (has a rich sweetness, elegant fragrance, & used to make herbal tea), Kee (it first starts out burning spicy, and then becomes extremely bitter), and Maranga (peel is very bitter but flesh tastes like a sweet drink); Granted it's mostly about their flavors but that's something. Of course all other Berries got a description, let's see what the Legendary Berries say:
Liechi: A slightly rare Berry. When you eat it, its spicy flavors clash in your mouth.
Ganlon: A slightly rare Berry with unique flavors. Its intense dry and bitter flavors are loved by some and hated by others.
Salac: A slightly rare Berry. The flesh underneath its bumpy skin is incredibly sweet and sour.
Petaya: A slightly rare Berry. It's eye-poppingly spicy and bitter, but it's packed with nutrients.
Apicot: A slightly rare Berry. Its blue part has a very dry flavor and its green part has a very sour flavor.
Starf: A Berry that's considered a myth. It's said to have extremely strong power. Its delicious flavor is otherworldly.
Hm, Petaya and Starf are interesting though sadly the others are generic. Oh well, some Berries do refer back to their old Tag Descriptions, it's a shame they didn't try with all of them.
Just gonna skip over the "A slightly rare Berry" part.
Liechi: Its clashing spicy and sweet flavors causes the mouth to salivate profusely.
Ganlon: Its intense dry and bitter flavors can cause dehydration so must be used carefully.
Salac: It's incredibly sweet and sour flesh numbs the tongue making it feel like you're chewing air.
Apicot: The dry blue half and sour green half cancel each other out so no on knows how to cook it.
Liechi: Its clashing spicy and sweet flavors causes the mouth to salivate profusely.
Ganlon: Its intense dry and bitter flavors can cause dehydration so must be used carefully.
Salac: It's incredibly sweet and sour flesh numbs the tongue making it feel like you're chewing air.
Apicot: The dry blue half and sour green half cancel each other out so no on knows how to cook it.
There, each Berry now references its old Tag Description to make a fun Curry Ingredient description!
Or, instead of thinking how to give a "airborne" status to Pokemon which are capable of flying/floating, maybe we should re-think how Ground-type Moves work.
Like, instead of it just them strictly using the ground & dirt to do damage, what they're actually doing is releasing tectonic particles into the air. Flying-type Pokemon can remain immune to them as they're naturally air/wind elementals so they have an air current circling around them which redirects the tectonic particles causing them to fall back down (meanwhile particles like powder, pollen, and spores, while still resisted, are light enough to remain airborne so eventually make their way through the air current).
That way we explain why Pokemon which fly and float can be hit by Ground-type moves, why Flying-types (and Levitate users, no reason we can't keep the Ability) aren't affected by the projectile Ground-type moves, and GF don't feel like they need to give a non-Flying-type winged Pokemon hovering in the air Levitate (and maybe can give Levitate users a second & Hidden Ability; also spread Levitate to other Pokemon they may have originally been hesitant too because they don't want it to be that Pokemon's sole Ability).
Oh, and they also won't feel like they have to make every Flying-type and Levitate user hovering in the air. "Hey, Charizard is standing there, use Earthquake! Huh? It didn't work? Oh, right, its Flying-type so has the air current around it protecting it from the tectonic particles, silly me!".
(TBC)
I'm sympathetic towards this line of thinking (Gen 5 is the only generation with a design I actually hate), but I think it's extremely unfair to pick Mimikyu as a benchmark for comparison haha, since Mimikyu is basically Design As Storytelling: The Pokemon. Virtually no other Pokemon has the level of depth to its design as Mimikyu, and honestly thank god for that. As great as it is on its own, making the entire dex full of mons like Mimikyu would kill any sense of immersion for me. Imo Pokemon works best when the roster of mons strikes the appropriate balance between an ecosystem of creatures and a cast of characters, and tbh I'd rather it favoured the former over the latter overall.even among ppl who agree with me that gen5 newmons set is worst or second worst, gen5 newmons set is overrated
View attachment 454314
even among ppl who agree with me that gen7 newmons set is pretty good, gen7 newmons set is underrated
View attachment 454315
i'll add some more elucidated thoughts so i'm not just listposting, but for the lists 1) i spent like 5 mins on them but 2) i tried to be objective-ish for vague "best for the franchise" type energy, eg i dislike lurantis and like heatmor but chose keep lurantis and remove heatmor. 3) im not really focusing on competitive scene implications here
explaining every single pick would take 10 hours to satisfy nobody, but more generally in this exercise, i found the gen5 mons to be even more derivative-ish than i thought. everyone knows about gigalith golem, swoobat crobat, etc, but what caught my eye is how replacable mons like jellicent and seismitoad felt. (side note: im not tryin to say "remove" mons are Unworthy of existing or saying you're Bad Taste if you dislike a "remove" mon. they have their advantages. i'm just looking at character bloat and trying to call it as i see it re: weight franchise advantage to keeping it vs franchise advantage to leaving more room for more mons.)
i hesitate to directly call mons like jellicent and seismitoad "derivative" because, even tho jellyfish and toad pokemon exist, they have clearly different vibes, typings, aims, etc. yet, mons like the above just didn't feel like they contribute that much. is pokemon that much worse if jellicent doesn't exist? i'd be hard pressed to say so. but for tentacruel, i'd be more inclined to. why? besides being a gen1 mon and having legacy factor, tent has this subtle energy to it. jellicent has cool edgy dex entries, sure, but plenty of mons do and can. maybe im missing something, but tentacruel feels more intricately put together in a way that lets it shine. this might help explain: tentacruel, in a literal sense, suffers from "this is a real-world animal" syndrome, it is a jellyfish, but i actually think jellicent is more afflicted by the syndrome.
tentacruel depends on its jellyfish anatomy features to create its menacing energy. its cap hiding those lurking eyes, its poised tentacles–these are integral. the design utility provided by these jellyfish body parts masks the fact that, you know, it's a real animal in pokemon. however, jellicent feels like... a ghost spirit taking the form of a jellyfish for the sake of taking the form of a jellyfish. how do jellicent's tentacles help its design? i dont know! i forget they exist! they prevent it from being SO top-heavy, i guess, but that top doesn't feel super effective either. any menacing energy from "its just this gaping blob of liquid... staring at me inhumanly" feels blunty by the goofy eyes and (especially) by the goofy mustache. the mustache also robs surface area that could contribute towards creepy empty water / empty space visualization.
talking about jellicent (i actually typed "jellyfish" by accident the first time... lol) also bleeds into my next less-immediately-obvious critique of gen5 dex: concept shallowness.
galvantula's species name is the elespider and thats what it is. its an electric spider. neat. is this concept shallowness unique to gen5? fuck no. but it feels more pervasive there. why am i picking on one individual pokemon to talk about a systemic problem? to explain more what i mean by "conceptual shallowness" by contrasting it with mimikyu, which i consider conceptually richer for reasons that may not be obvious. mimikyu basic concept is "ghost disguising as pikachu." maybe you look at that and think "that's barely more complex than galv!"
mimikyu has another concept dimension though: being a lovable loser! this concept dimension is continually strengthened throughout its design and beyond. let us count the ways:
1) its disguise is of flimsy, familiar, everyday cloth, and not some spooky ghost magic or ectoplasm or something
2) the disguise is of endearingly low physical quality, with different coloring from pikachu / crayon-like marks / busted mode
3) the disguise has endearingly low "spatial quality"; it erratically shifts and sways in-model, it doesnt move around like pikachu, and it has "busted" mode. it doesn't "idle behave" much like pikachu, in addition to not looking much like it
4) it tries to imitate pikachu, an immensely popular pokemon, a childlike yet relatable sentiment that inspires a caring instinct in players
5) it has a large head, short height, and large forward facing eyes, echoing a child
do you see all these varyingly subtle touches!? do you get how, for example, mimikyu's design would actually be worse and less effective if it was more pikachu-yellow colored?
what else does galvantula's concept and execution have going for it? ive heard some things, but nothing that's really struck me as compelling or greatly executed. i remember hearing something about its fur, static charge, and electricity generation? that's a neat starting point for further development, but i don't think it's executed super well. it's fairly shallow in galv (why should i care that it generates electricity one way vs another?), and the fur is unintuitively/artificially placed and ugly.
another one i remember is something about joltik needing to feed on electricity, but galvantula being the stronger and doing the opposite, outputting electricity to use in attacks. if i remember right, a neat detail, but nothing as strengthened and compelling as mimikyu's example. nothing i can tell about galvantula's design, or even its abilities and moves, paint it as eg protective towards joltiks or willing to share electricity with them. nothing about joltik's morphology seems to suggest a more thoughtful and rich change in electricity manipulation and feeding than "the electricity absorbing tick magically became the electricity outputting spider." maybe galvantula IS protective, and maybe it DOES have some rich morphological connection with joltik that i missed. but i would not have been able to notice without you telling me, which kind of indicates the problem. a trait to me is so much stronger, more interesting, and more impactful when it bleeds through the pokemon and is something you expect to naturally and organically discover by accident, not "oh someone on the internet told me an easter egg" or "i went hunting for nuggets," even if your easter egg is very cool.
happy to take questions on any of this / on placements / whatever. sorry for rantyness/confusingness
I definitely think Joltik's design is stronger than Galvantula's, but they both work pretty well for me. Ticks and spiders are both arachnids, so I don't think there needs to be much more of an explanation for how one becomes the other, at least by Pokemon standards. It's also a transition from parasite to predator, which to me is enough of a reason why the switch from feeding on electricity to generating it feels like a natural progression. I also don't see why Galvantula needs to have a particular protective relationship with Joltik.
In general I'm leery of the idea that a Pokemon's design needs to have much depth to begin with, and especially of the idea that any such depth needs to be obviously and immediately communicated to me through its design alone.
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I know Rattata is sometimes mocked for being "just a rat".
Early rodents and birds generally tend to look generic, at least in their first stage. Pidgey, Taillow, and Bunnelby are good examples.
There are, however, not-so-generic designs among these as well, such as Hoothoot (stands on one foot, clock motif).
There needs to be a balance imo. Sometimes simple designs are much more effective than those with deep lore.
I also am very cynical of mimikyu because I just find it like it was designed to be a marketing ploy first, a pokemon later, and I hate hate hate when that happens (I am looking at you, wooloo and yamper)
I also am very cynical of mimikyu because I just find it like it was designed to be a marketing ploy first, a pokemon later, and I hate hate hate when that happens (I am looking at you, wooloo and yamper)