Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Dreadfury]

--> A
Similarly to Clefable, in my opinion protean greninja has taken a slight hit in viability and the rest of A+ has gotten better. Greninjas utility as a offense attacker has gotten punished by the rise of pokemon such as Reuniclus which give its sets a tiny annoyance, and Celesteela, which also gives it trouble. Along with that, its speed tier is no longer what it used to be and Ice Beam Ash-Greninja's rise shadows Protean Greninja. While usage is not my only argument, Protean Greninja has lost some usage to its ash form, and similarly to Clefable, is FAR from a bad pokemon.

I'm gonna have to hard disagree with this nomination, although I kinda agree with your other two (I'm not 100% keen on Clefable dropping either way but I definitely think Bulu has more than proven itself worthy of A+ at this point, and Lax is still godlike). Its Speed tier is still incredibly good (crucially beating Tornadus-T, which is fantastic, and everything below), and it still has the movepool to deal with both Reuniclus and Celesteela should those prove too problematic. Taunt and Dark Pulse - neither of which are options I'd call particularly "niche" - can give Reuniclus a serious headache, and Life Orb variants can frequently 2HKO Celesteela after Stealth Rock with HP Fire. I would argue that its speed tier is still very much what it used to be, outside of Ash-Greninja being a little better, and it hasn't actually gotten worse in any sense. Greninja, much like its own ability, is very protean in nature: it has the tools to deal with many of the metagame trends that would be a little annoying for other conventional sets, and it doesn't have to really give much up to do so. Ash-Greninja just got better than it used to be is all, and it for one absolutely deserves to be in A+. I've elaborated a bit about this in the Discord server if anyone's curious, but I'm really not on-board with this thing dropping. It's still amazing as ever and I think that A+ getting a little stronger overall is just pointing fingers at a certain green snake thing being a bit too powerful to stay in A+ and raise the bar by that much.

In terms of my more in-depth thoughts about Clefable... I dunno, honestly. It's definitely not as splashable as it was a couple months ago, and Zygarde continuing to tear through this tier like a wrecking ball by showing how truly godlike its extremely specialized movepool is has been able to develop considerable counterplay for this thing on its own, but it's still good at what it does. I could go either way on this one, but I'm leaning very slightly towards a drop to A, although this is heavily dependent on what ends up rising and dropping (if Zygarde rises to S - and considering I haven't seen a single good argument in favor of it not rising to S it absolutely should - I can still realistically see it staying in A+).

 

[xapx]

First time ever posting in this thread.

→A
To put it shortly, Tangrowth is just so good at what it does and is a cut above the rest of A-.

→A
Literally anyone who has ever seen my builder knows I spam this blob. I really think that Clefable has gotten worse. This isn't the same metagame where you face Clefable balance every other match where you click Wish to heal up your Heatran and claim a life, it's a lot more of Reuniclus, Mega Mawile etc. all of which Clefable has a hard time dealing with, and doesn't want to create free turns for in general. This claim isn't to say that Clefable is bad by any means, but it's not on the level of the rest of A+ and should drop.

→Ranked
I'm not actually going to nom this to get ranked myself but I'd like to start a bit of discussion on it. Slowbro has qualified for OLT on Kory's team, and is quite a legitimate Pokemon, it's very similar to Mega Slowbro which has slowly started to gain a bit of traction for its ability to answer a bunch of threatening Pokemon such as Zygarde, Mega Medicham, and pretty much any other physical attacker. Considering how similar Slowbro and Mega Slowbro are in terms of what they do, I believe it could get ranked as well, possibly alongside Mega Slowbro. If you want to see some replays of Slowbro in action just go here and search for "lt52ek kory".

I agree with every nomination on this one. Tangrowth is just damn good at what it's supposed to do, the PhysDef set stopping Zygarde, Kartana and non-SSSS Gyarados, and the SpDef set just eating up hits ranging from Koko to Ash-G and is still able to eat up hits from Zygarde and Kartana. There's even this weird mixed set which is PhysDef EVs + AV? I'm not sure since I've never used it.

Tangrowth: A- ---> A (agree)

Tangrowth Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 171-202 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 172-203 (42.6 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 311-366 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth in Grassy Terrain: 349-411 (86.6 - 101.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery (This one is a little bit scary)
252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 104-124 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 225-265 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 264-312 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 136-162 (33.6 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 118-140 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 6.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 159-187 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Latios-Mega Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 170-202 (42 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Clefable really is dropping in usage and really isn't as good as it used to be. Zam destroys it, Tran traps and kills it, Greninjas are bringing Gunk Shot, and even Zygardes are running Iron Tail. It's not a bad Pokemon, just that the Pokemon it's supposed to check are having new sets that actually beat it easily.

Therefore, Clefable A+ ---> A (agree)

Clefable Calcs

+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 331-391 (84 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 390-458 (98.9 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Heatran Inferno Overdrive (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 321-378 (81.4 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Magearna Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Slowbro is actually a pretty interesting mon, since it's able to check stuff like Landot, Gliscor, and Zygarde, as well as nail Fighting-types like Mega Lop or Medi. It also has pretty good all-around stats, decent offensive presence, and reliable recovery from Regen and Slack Off. Although it loses to really common stuff like Tangrowth, Koko, Mega Zam or Ash-G, I think it's a really solid pick for a physical wall. It also has good coverage like Scald, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Psychic, Psyshock and Grass Knot.
I'm not sure if this is good enough to set up Calm Mind, since there are a lot of special attackers that can kill it even at +1 or +2, but we'll have to see.

This mon definitely deserves at least C or C+

Some Bro Calcs

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro: 123-144 (31.2 - 36.5%) -- 67.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- 48.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro: 250-296 (63.4 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Serperior could use a rise to B+. It's seen a lot more usage during OLT and really has proven how deadly Glare can be, crippling most of its would-be switch-ins. While it did receive a rise recently if I recall correctly I think B+ is more suited for it, considering the big surge in usage and viability it recently got.

Hydreigon really should rise to B-. It's received a lot of usage in OLT as an offensive check to the likes of Heatran, Ash-Greninja, and Reuniclus. It was used in both Kickasser and Kory's qualifying teams and it's, in general, a solid breaker by virtue of its typing. It can even force out the likes of Clefable and weakened Tapu Bulu after Stealth Rock and keep itself healthy with Roost, very reliable offensive Pokémon really.

Serperior got a huge rise in usage because of the robopoke RMT, and furthermore used in BanDisnDatnMe's Glare team, which I think is one of the main reasons the Glare set got popular. While Contrary Leaf Storm isn't the best, since it can get PP stalled easily, has a chance to miss, and a lot of mons like AV Mag or Torn resist it can the latter can revenge it, combined with Glare this thing is definitely very annoying to deal with, only having to spam Glare and Leaf Storm and basically leaving a big hole torn in the opposing team. Some checks aren't really that affected by Paralysis tbh, like Ferro, since it can eat up any attack from Serp and they don't really bring HP Fire anymore, Moltres, which uses Substitute to prevent Glare, and AV Mag, which really doesn't mind getting an even slower Volt Switch out after this thing is gone. And then there are those SubSeed + Glare, which is super hard to deal with, since you're basically guarnteed to have 1 mon glared and weakened. Overall, I think this mon has the moves and utility to back it up to B on the VR.

B ---> B+ (agree)

Serperior Calcs

+4 200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 224 HP / 216+ SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu in Grassy Terrain: 161-189 (47.7 - 56%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 152-179 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 132-156 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

Hydreigon didn't see much use until the recent OLT, and I think it definitely showed its true powers since then. Being immune to Ground-type attacks, resistant to Fire, Grass and Electric-type attacks and a great check to Ash-G, this mon definitely deserves a better rank. It's also one of the reasons why Ash-G are running Ice Beam (and why I'm running Dazzling Gleam on Koko). Just the fact that it checks Ash-G and Heatran should already be a huge factor for his rise.

~~I'm doing the rest next morning, really sleepy rn~~

 

[BodaciousT]

I’ve been ghosting this thread for literally months, time to give my own feedback.



Agree with Mega Slowbro C —> C+ or B-

This thing is really valuable in a meta where Zygarde reigns supreme. The standard 3 Attacks + Slack Off set works nicely, but I like running a CM Slack Off set with Scald and Ice Beam to take out Zygarde. Despite Weavile growing in usage, Slowbro can still take a Knock Off if you need to. Slowbro also enjoys Heatran being so prominent, as it can shrug off most attacks (besides Z-Solarbeam) and only fears the Toxic. Despite Mega Alakazam becoming amazing and Shadow Ball 2HKOing, Slowbro can also check Mega Latios, especially since Draco is the only thing that deals over half, while you just heal off the damage right afterward. Overall, having a Zygarde answer is always valuable, and meta trends are favoring Mega Slowbro, so rise.



Agree with Weavile B+ —> A-

Don’t wanna say too much since it’s already been covered, but everyone knows that meta trends are favoring it, with the new psychics running around with Reuniclus and Lati@s, and having the STAB Icicle Crash is always nice for those rising Tangrowths, and Knock Off is just a bonus. Rise please.



Disagree with Greninja-Ash A+ —> S

What has changed for Ash to suddenly rise up to S? I know, versatility doesn’t equal viability, but even compared to previous S- mon Kartana, it didn’t have the capabilities that Kartana had to set up and start sweeping, or to just scarf it and late game clean. Seeing Ash up there with Heatran, Lando-T, potentially Zygarde and Clef doesn’t really add up to me. About Zygarde and Clef...



Agree with Zygarde A+ —> S,

Don’t have an opinion on Clef A+ —> S

Agree with Zygarde rising. It’s so damn good, not much else to say. While more things are rising to check it, Zygarde keeps adapting to its checks, and we all know that it picks its checks and counters. Overall, I hate playing against Zygarde, and love using it. Rise it to S.

Clef, I’m not so sure about. I would honestly be fine if Clef stayed A+, but it’d be cool if Clef rose to S. Not saying too much, just gonna add that Lucha usage has dropped off a cliff, and that could slightly impact Clefs viability.



Agree with Reuniclus B+ —> A-

God, I love this mon. I’ll acknowledge that rising dark types to trap the Lati@s are a problem, however the fancy Acid Armor CM set can PP stall those dark types. It’s just a really solid pick right now, and while meta trends aren’t really helping it rise, I think it’s current rank doesn’t reflect its viability correctly.



Agree with Bulu A —> A+

I actually thought Bulu was already A+. At any rate, Bulu is a fantastic pick right now, and while Heatran, Weavile, and mons that carry coverage just for Weavile are everywhere, I think that just a testament to how Bulu could be an A+ mon.

I’ve broken my ghosting streak just to post this, see you all in about a year.

 

[Finchinator]

Slate will be going to the VR Council sometime tonight; this thread will be dead until we all vote and I can compile the changes. Expect us back in business later this week and also expect a fairly big shake-up given recent OLT and Snake developments! Hope you all have a good day

 

[Finchinator]

this will be up either tonight or tomorrow afternoon (gmt-4)

stop fucking PMing me about it

 

[Finchinator]

Been super busy between Snake, IRL, and a few other things, so the explanations will be brief here. Feel free to message me personally for more in-depth explanations!

full slate we voted on and discussed

Rises (30)
Zygarde from A+ to S
Greninja-Ash from A+ to S
Mawile-Mega from A to A+
Tapu Bulu from A to A+
Celesteela from A to A+
Chansey from A- to A
Tangrowth from A- to A
Reuniclus from B+ to A-
Tyranitar-Mega from B+ to A-
Excadrill from B to B+
Serperior from B to B+
Rotom-Wash from B to B+
Hippowdon from B- to B
Blacephalon from B- to B
Hydreigon from C+ to B-
Charizard-Mega-Y from C+ to B-
Crawdaunt from C to C+
Slowbro-Mega from C to C+
Buzzwole from C- to C
Moltres from C- to C
Avalugg from C- to C
Shaymin, Klinklang, Xurkitree, Crabominable, Swellow, Snorlax, Empoleon, Kommo-O, Slowbro from UR to C- (just list which, if any, you wish to rank)

Drops (16)
Tapu Koko from A+ to A
Kartana from A+ to A
Clefable from A+ to A
Tornadus-T from A+ to A
Greninja from A+ to A
Tyranitar from A to A-
Lopunny-Mega from B+ to B
Suicune from B to B-
Mantine from B- to C+
Quagsire from B- to C+
Terrakion from B- to C+
Kingdra from B- to C+
Skarmory from C+ to C
Manectric-Mega from C to C-
Shuckle from C- to UR
Azelf from C- to UR

rises:
Mawile-Mega from A to A+: Pretty universally agreed upon. Mega Mawile has been gaining steam for a while and it is one of the biggest threats to balance and stall in the metagame now.
Tapu Bulu from A to A+ - Actually pretty split, but SDef SD Tapu Bulu has been catching on (and BU sets even), so it should not be shocking.
Tangrowth from A- to A - The spaghetti monster is gaining popularity again as the ability to check so many things with a convenient defensive typing and Regenerator is very valuable.
Reuniclus from B+ to A- - Reuniclus is another Pokemon that has picked up a ton recently, especially the Acid Armor variant.
Tyranitar-Mega from B+ to A- - One of the better Stealth Rock setters in this tier and just a generally effective Pokemon when you can fit it; also, it can get them up against stall, which is neat.
Excadrill from B to B+ - Suicide lead set and conventional Sand teams both seeing an uptick in usage.
Serperior from B to B+ - Just carryover from OLT waves and also the fact that it fucks with non-Moltres stall.
Rotom-Wash from B to B+ - Great pivot that has been underrated for a while now and is finally seeing some usage.
Hippowdon from B- to B - Stall use and just general defensive presence due to the increase in stuff like Mega Mawile.
Hydreigon from C+ to B- - Been seeing more and more of it lately ever since that team that used it to qualify for OLT.
Charizard-Mega-Y from C+ to B- - This thing has always been borderline B-/C+ and it finally got the votes to move up this time.
Slowbro-Mega from C to C+ - Slowbro's niche is just finally coming out as it is a great blanket check to Mawile, Hawlucha, Zygarde, etc. on the physical side.
Moltres from C- to C - Slowly becoming a common stall option.
Avalugg from C- to C - Slowly becoming a common stall option.
Slowbro from UR to C- - Similar to Mega Slowbro, but a bit less common; still, it has seen some usage in tournaments lately and it definitely is a viable pivot that should see more consistent usage or at least gain consideration from time to time.

drops:
Tapu Koko from A+ to A - Tapu Koko is obviously a great pivot and Defogger, but the more threatening sets have taken a back seat for a while now and it simply isn't consistent or near potent enough to remain A+.
Kartana from A+ to A - Kartana actually has seen a refreshing amount of usage recently, specifically the Scarf set when paired with Magnezone on a number of balances, but the conventional Choice Band and Swords Dance variants hardly exist in tournaments anymore and that is cause for concern. All things considered, the effectiveness and potent nature of Kartana simply isn't what it once was.
Clefable from A+ to A - Highly controversial one here as it was on the verge of S for the longest time, but the overwhelming nature of the metagame extremes and things like Heatran, SD Bulu, and Mega Mawile all doing ridiculously well against Clefable just made it much harder to slap onto every balance team. All things considered, this is one of the more drastic departures the metagame has had, but it shows how the status quo can change when cheese/extreme archetypes are hastily integrated into the metagame and how reactionary teambuilding trends truly are in the modern day, thus preventing the metagame from becoming stagnant.
Hawlucha from A to A- - Luchador is not near its peak anymore, but it's still good. A slight drop fits the bill.
Mantine from B- to C+ - ass
Terrakion from B- to C+ - ass
Skarmory from C+ to C - ass

Discussion points:
- nuke S: nothing really stands out a ton as top tier in the eyes of some. lando-t no longer rules the tier like it once did, but many can still argue that it and heatran are still the clear-cut best pokemon out there, so this is worth discussing.
- Tornadus-T to A: perhaps got raised too quickly too high as it is now plateauing a bit, but perhaps A+ suits it nevertheless.
- Kommo-O to C- and Slowbro to C: pokemon that have seen usage lately (tours and ladder) that should be discussed
- Sableye-Mega to A-: stall is seeing more and more usage and m-sableye is close to a staple on effective stalls

 

[Finchinator]

If the discussion point about the state of S rank becomes too much, I will not hesitate to infract, delete, and blacklist the topic. Consider this your first and only warning!

 

[Aurella]

Ash-Greninja and Zygarde promotions to S rank are well deserved. Lando, on the other hand, is far from S rank worthy.

No one is shitting themselves when 99% of the time they can spot scarf Lando right at team preview (popular scarf defog reducing its threat coverage & potential even more), or better yet when encountering a standard bulky helm support variant. The overall rise of Zygarde has promoted a conscientious preparation for offensive ground type mons, and therein Lando has suffered as a result.

Lando is a neat and handy teambuilding tool/option, but until players go back to utilizing aggressive meta-capitalizing strategies with Lando (outside of rocks boom) the S-ranking will just seem out of place, so long as it remains a predictable, unthreatening glue mon that most balanced and offensive teams don't fear.

It doesn't hold a candle to the pair of Zygarde and Heatran, each with its own myriad of threatening and viable sets against all playstyles. It doesn't hold a candle to the threatening amount of momentum Ash-Ninja generates.


Though this idea of nuking tran off S -rank is just absurd IMO.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Regarding S/What What Should be in it

I think it should stay. Heatran is still an insane threat that’s better than pretty much everything else (except zygarde). And this superiority should be stated with that rank. Speaking of Zygarde, I really feel that, though for the past 2 slates it’s been neglected, it should raise to S with heatran for the reasons we’ve put so many times that it isn’t worth putting here. We have earlier parts of the thread reguarding that. Heatran and Zygarde have proven to be the clear top cut threats and S is necessary in my opinion to reperesent that. If landorus drops, I wouldn’t mind though I don’t mind if it stays S either. Would probably expect a drop though seeing as it’s it’s pretty predicatable and easy to counter (assuming S stays). Also, I still don’t think ash greninja is worthy of S. It isn’t on the level of Heatran or Zygarde, though its still very good and a top cut of A+.

Others:
Torn-t, I feel is still a great mon and easily worth A+ cause of its great qualities, mainly defog and u turn with a poweful type. With koko declining a bit and grasses better than ever before, this thing is only gotten more worthy of A+ imo.

Kommo-O is something that can rise but I feel will probs not be used too much with
OLT done and HO probs dropping in use again.

Mega Sableye is something I don’t really have a prefrence for it’s placement between B+ and A-. If it rises, great I see why. If not, that’s also fine and I see why it doesn’t.

Sorry if this post seemed half assed, but I wanted my thoughts out quick.

 

[revelations]

Lando has definetley dropped a lot I agree I think that it should drop but dont really care if it stays. The metagame hasn't been kind to it and probably will continue to not. I agree with VerlisifySetsSuck that zygarde has been neglected and should rise thanks to its unpredictability,versatility, and ability to do a variety ot things. Regarding nuking S, this should't happen when one of the greatest threats in the meta,Zygarde (and heatran)should be up there. Agreeing with what Aurella said about Lando's predictability, you can almost always see what set it is at team preview, Zygarde on the other hand has the ability to be nearly anything. Sub, DD, Double Dance, coil etc.

Conclusion:
Zygarde to S: Strongly Agree
Nuking S: Strongly Disagree
Lando-T to A+ : I dont really care, it has a reason to be in S and also a reason to drop.
(Ill do more vr posts now ig)

 

[Felixx]

: Torn-T to A from A+ : Disagree

Torn-T should definitely not drop, it's still the most consistent Defogger that keeps multiple layers of Spikes/Toxic Spikes off the field, and its ability to check all of the common Grass-types such as Tapu Bulu, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Kartana, and even Serperior is still incredibly useful, as most teams carry atleast 1 of these, and the fact that it forces certain mons such as Heatran, Celesteela, Rotom-W, and Toxapex to get knocked off is nice since it makes them much easier to break through w/o Lefties/Black Sludge. Not to mention, Taunt Z-move Tornadus has an incredible match-up versus Stall builds as it's able to knock off Zapdos and w/ repeated attacks it can force it to Roost but you catch it w/ Taunt leaving it chipped, pair it w/ well played pursuit trappers and it can actually break down most Stall builds, you just need to play the long game, and Regen helps a lot w/ that. Furthermore, Tapu Koko usage has been falling a little bit in both ladder and general tournament play, and Roost sets were a big nuisance. I've also been seeing some Torn run Heatwave for M-Mawile, Exca, Ferrothorn, and Celesteela, so it can easily catch them off guard and force big damage on them, crippling them for the rest of match for teammates to take advantage of.

TLDR: Role compression w/ Defog, checking common Grass-types, Stall breaking capabilities, Heatwave and Knock Off crippling checks, these qualities all make Tornadus-T worthy of a spot alongside the titans of A+.

 

[cityscapes]

regarding a potential lando drop:

i don't think comparing it to zyg is fair here. despite sharing a typing they literally don't run any of the same sets, with lando running defensive/scarf/sd and zyg running cb/a spectrum of boosting sets with dd or coil.

considering the viability of lando itself, i'm honestly not sure. looking at the rises from this slate nearly all of the mons that rose have a good matchup against lando. tang/bulu counter all variants lacking flyinium z (although scarf uturn is a pain), stall beats every variant besides sd (and even that can lose to pyuku iirc), special wallbreakers like hydra and zardy can potentially take advantage of it being in.

i'm not 100% in favor of a drop because lando is still doing the same things it always has. get sr if defensive, get momentum, check threats with intimidate. that being said, it's certainly in a more awkward spot than it was previously.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Idk why but yall are sleeping on snorlax and empoleon. like its fine idc that much but I really wanna reiterate mine and vso 's points. I know yall dont actually use these mons and in general are basically going off previously contrived notions and viewpoints and all but like i really really just wanna circle back to those 2 mons especially .snorlax is hella good and really dangerous if ur not prepared and empoleon is lit af and a staple on my squads. if ur defensive empo ur in general just an annoyance and spreading around status - which is actually what all of u do anyway on ur quads with other mons but empo has that unique type

 

[ReadTheMango]

Still genuinely surprised that Zygarde didn't move up to S tier. I'm relatively new to following the VR so I don't have as much experience to go on here. However, I believe it was versatility and consistency that defined an S ranked pokemon; which I feel Zygarde has in spades. At this point, I feel like some clarification on what being an S rank actually means is needed on the viability rankings itself. I personally don't think a nuke is necessary or even desirable as we have mons that are clearly a cut above right now (heatran and zygarde rule in USUM). Having a ranking which accurately reflects their dominance is a good thing. Furthermore, I have to disagree with Aurella about a Lando drop. It has been the go-to glue mon for so long. It's consistent and it can run enough different sets that it fits within teams in a plethora of ways. Thanks for opening up the floor for discussion on the S tier though Finch.

On a personal note I am glad to see Mega-Maw and especially Bulu get some love in A+ (Try a full sp def Bulu bulk up set people)

While I am not happy to see stall becoming more common, it's pretty clear that M-Sable is a staple yet again on it. So I could see it moving to A- and perhaps higher as people work out how best to use it in a hazard stacking filled meta. I feel at some point fairy coverage will become even more valuable for teams in dealing with this menace.

Felixx raised all the points I wanted to about a Torn-T drop. I use Koko a lot, but every time I don't, I sincerely regret not putting it on there due to this mon, which just ruins my day. Disagree with a drop at this stage, especially with how prevalent grass types are in this meta.

Glad to see Slowbro get more usage, I'm going to be building around it to see what works. Tours have certainly peaked my interest, as is the case with Hydreigon which I think will rise even further.

 

[Taptricity]

It feels like almost a crime that Zygarde has been kept out of S rank in each and every slate. The fact that Tangrowth is gaining usage just because Zygarde isn’t usually using the Dragonium set which beats Tangrowth says a lot about the viability of it. I do know that other factors are involved with Serperior’s claim to fame and bulky grasses overall just rising in usage but Zygarde has been denied its spot to S every single time. It is one of the most dominating threats in the metagame that has like 50 viable sets atm. Enough has been said about Zygarde though so I’ll shift over to the discussion points.

Felixx hit the nail on the head with this one. Torn-T is definitely one of the best defoggers in the tier combined with being a stellar defensive pivot. It also appreciates the slight drop of Koko and the rise of bulky grasses. Torn-T still has a lot of things going for it so don’t drop it.

(Idgaf about the size of this Kommo-o image)
Please rank Kommo-o. It definitely won’t be the most used thing in the world but it has two viable sweeping sets that can both be used effectively. We have both Kommonium-Z and the SubSalac set who are both decent wincons. It also has the niche of Clangorous Soulblaze and Clanging Scales being both sound moves which allows Kommo-o to bypass Serp and Zyg’s subs. It is an issue that its abysmal defensive typing gives it less set up opportunities in the meta especially with Bulu’s much larger presence currently but when done right a Kommo-o sweep is a good sweep.

I don’t have much of an opinion on Mega Sableye but raise the Bro.

 

[Lil Infant Tylenol]

Alright for the nuke S Rank Ill split it up into the current/potential S ranks
S-> A+ disagree: I understand why some people feel this way, but I still believe that it should be S rank. It has no safe switch-ins and amazing defensive typing. Definitely should stay S rank.

S->A+ strongly agree- Alright, I actually wanted to make a post about this, but was too scared to do. Defensively, it is worse than gliscor. Gliscor has great passive recovery and reliable recovery while lando does not have either. Also, Gliscor is also arguably a better wall breaker for teams (does not require Z move), and without a doubt better stall breaker. On top of that, gliscor also has the option of going sp def to deal with non z heatrans. It is still a top 3 scarfer, but it cant outspeed volcarona after a plus one boost. Z moves nuke basically everything, but Lando-t big selling point was versatility and it is less versatile than ever.

A+->S strongly agree- Zygarde should 100% be in S. Its 2 counters are mega slowbro and avalugg. Those do not fit on any style except stall. For every other pokemon in the game, zygarde has a set that can beat it.
So yeah if it was not obvious, I have a strong disagree for nuking the S tier

A+-> A agree- I think we did overate because people underrated this thing. Still a great pokemon and one of the best defoggers, but I feel A is better home for it.

UR-> C- agree- I think it proved its worth in OLT. I think time will tell if it was just a gimmick or if it will actually work.

C--> C agree Slowbro is proving its worth once again. It is a great check to suff like Tran, Zygarde, Lando- t, Mega medi, Lop, etc. Definetly deserving to go up a rank.

B+->A- strongly agree: This thing and chansey are staples on stall. And now, stall has gotten even better. Having sableye go to A- (or even higher) should reflect that.

Now I would like to make a nom of my own nom

B- -> B- IMO, this thing is much better than everything else on B- and would fit in much better in B. Specs is tough to switch in on and its also one of the few offensive ash gren checks. It is really good on offensive teams and should get another bump. Also, scarf is pretty good set that I think people are sleeping on.

 

[HeartfulKitty]

So I'm kind of confused; why is the nuking of S a discussion point? Even if we discount the Zygarde and Gren-ash stuff, I understand that Lando-T may be underwhelming to people now and might deserve a drop, but that doesn't mean that Heatran got any worse. It still does something on pretty much every match no matter what set it is, and is almost always doing something pretty damn good when it does something. It's clearly a cut above the entire rest of the tier so dismantling S seems like a bad idea since it implies that Heatran is at the same level as stuff like Torn-T, Ferro, and protean Gren. They're still pretty damn great, but Heatran seems like it's much better at filling the wide array of roles it can fill.

 

[xapx]

I agree with most of these nominations, and Felixx has taken the words out of my mouth.
Here's a few changes I absolutely do not agree with:

Ash-Greninja ---> S
Ash-Greninja has so much counters tbh, Hydreigon, Tapu Bulu, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, etc. I do think it has the potential for S before, but with the amount of specially defensive Grass-type Pokemon and counters for this Pokemon rising up the VR, I don't think it deserves S right now.

Greninja ---> A
This one really doesn't deserve the drop. Since Ash-G got so much new counters, Greninja actually threatens all of the above threats I mentioned. It has Low Kick for Hydreigon, Gunk Shot/Ice Beam for Bulu and Tangrowth and HP Fire for Ferro. It even has the rare Z-Dig for the Magearna and Toxapex. TBH I think this mon should actually have risen because of the amount of Ash-G checks rising.

Kommo-o deserves to get ranked at least C, it's Z-Move gives it +1 stats all around and gives it a niche in late-game sweeping.

I also think nuking S is a good idea. Like Finch said, nothing really stands out, and I think the current S rank Pokemon have not shown what it takes to be an S-rank Pokemon, and that Landorus-T and Heatran don't really rule the tier anymore.

E: I put HP Ice for Ferro, what a dumbass

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

I also think nuking S is a good idea. Like Finch said, nothing really stands out, and I think the current S rank Pokemon have not shown what it takes to be an S-rank Pokemon, and that Landorus-T and Heatran don't really rule the tier anymore.

Heatran still is ruling the tier as the best mon in it besides zygarde, idk where u got the idea it isnt anymore. Sure, its being prepped for more but that goes to show how strong it is. Heatran and Zygarde are really above the rest of the tier and that needs to be displayed with the S rank. Don’t forget this is also a resource for new players so keeping S would help them see how much better they are when they’re building and learning the tier. As for lando dropping, tbh, I’d rather see it drop. It isn’t what it was in SM or early USM and has become too predictable with its lead set being mostly exclusive to HO, the z SD set becominging rarer, and scarf being so common, identifiable, and easy to counter for teams to where I don’t see it as an S mon anymore.

 

[NotInMyChristianServer]

About nuking S rank: Please don't

I think that VerlisifySetsSuck already pointed out a good argument, which I agree. Heatran & Zyg (yes I know that Zyg isn't S rank, but it is in my heart, ok?) are a lot better than everything in the tier, so erasing the S rank would be not the best idea.

Landorus-T from S to A+: Sorta agree

We all agree that good ol' Lando isn't the same Lando from SM or early USM, since bulky grasses are becoming better and better thanks to Zyg, which also outclasses him on the offensive side, and Gliscor on the defensive side. If the S- rank is brought to existance again, then Landorus-T would fit there like a glove imo, because the versatility he still has.

Tornadus-T from A+ to A: Disagree, a bit

The current meta trends are a mixed bag for him, since Heatran, MMaw & Zygarde doesn't have problems beating him outside of Magma Storm missing, but the influx of bulky grass types (bar Ferrothorn) is probably the best thing that could happen to him, since they cover Ash Gren, while he can pressuring them thanks to Hurricane/Supersonic Skystrike. Also, with Protean Gren dropping in viability & usage helps Torn-T a lot.

Mega Sableye from B+ to A- : Why didn't happened before? (Agree)

Well, Chansey rising should explain it quickly. Stall is gaining traction, so one of the best 'mon in the archetype rising in the VR should reflect it. It hates some current meta trends, yes, but that isn't so important since stall has been adapting to them pretty swiftly (Avalugg & Moltres stall, for example).

 

[Egor]

My own nom:

C+ => C

Fuck, why Araquanid is ranked higher than Ribombee? Both have the same niche but Bee does its task better because of superior Speed allowing it to set up webs before Taunt from the likes of Heatran and Torn, ability to bypass Fake Out flinch and cripple common anti-lead in M-Lop with Stun Spore, and ability to threaten M-Sableye, especially if Bee runs QD. Araqianid often struggles against Taunt users due to low Speed tier, loses to M-Sableye and, while able to set webs against M-Lop, hasnt any way to threaten it.

My thougts about some noms:

B+ => A- : Agree

With some new options like Moltres, Hippowdon, Avalugg stall becomes more diverse and effective playstyle. Utility that M-Sableye brings into stall teams is definitely great. Alongside Chansey, M-Sableye is a staple on stall teams rn, so it deserves a rise.

C- => C: Agree
shiny bro is cool
Ability to check some threatening attackers like Zygod, M-Medi, M-Lop, and Tran while not being very passive is really great. Although it isnt as bulky as its Mega forme, Bro is still solid physical wall and defensive pivot. The main difference from MBro is having a passive recovery and Regenerator troughout all battle at the cost of many bulk. C is fine for Bro.

B- => B: Disagree
shiny hydra is also cool
Hydra isnt as great as B mons like M-Cross, Alomomola and Mamo, for example. The main Hydra's problem is lacking of firepower and Speed. 125 SpA and 98 Spe, while not being bad, arent really great. Yeah, Scarf and Specs help to imrove its stats, but lack of Roost wont allow to consistently check Ash-Gren, which is one of the main Hydra's perks. I dont say that Hydra is bad, Hydra is pretty good, but not enough to be in B.

A+ => A: Disagree

Torn still is one of the best Defoggers in the tier, with consistensy provided by Regenerator, great role compression, being a stallbreaker with Taunt, both offensive and defensive pivot, check to the likes of Kart and great switch-in on U-turn with bulk spread and Rocky Helmet. Torn's Speed tier is solid, being faster than M-Latis, Kart, M-Diancie, etc. Ability for threaten Grasses is also great, and Torn benefits from Koko slightly dropped. Definitely A+.

 

[Vengeance417]

I really, really don't understand why Zygarde hasn't been listed as an S rank mon when it has been unanimously agreed on for several months that it's basically the best mon in the tier next to Heatran. I'd at least like an explanation from someone in the VR team concerning why Zygarde has continued to remain in A+ for all this time.

That being said, I also agree with Araquanid dropping to C. I honestly think Ribombee's much better at getting webs up than it due to better Speed, support options like Stun Spore for Flying-types and Levitate mons, can actually threaten Kartana with Hidden Power Fire, and successfully scare out Mega Sableye thanks to Moonblast.

 

[Katy]

I disagree with a Drop of Tornadus Therian from A+ since Grass Types such as Bulu and Tang are rising in popularity and this mon does a great job in checking them.
It has access to some of the best Coverage Options such as Heat Wave to catch the likes of Steela and Ferrothorn and also has access to Superpower/Focus blast to catch Tyranitar and Heatran.
A great STAB Hurricane paired with a powerful z Fly to hit extremely hard.
It also can run Rocky Helmet physdef set to check Kartana, Bulu etc and wear them down.
The access to fast Taunt also helps in nullifying defensive threats and it's also solid for gaining Momentum with the help of U-turn.
Tornadus Therian: A+



I feel like Ribombee should rise 1 sub rank, because it is better than Araquanid as a Webs Setter imo and it has much more versatility to offer. It can run a wide range of Moves like Moonblast Quiver Dance HP ground/HP fire to catch Heatran, Kartana and Ferrothorn and also Stun Spore to cripple opposing mons.
It's high Speed prevents it from being Taunted by most of the common Taunt Users.
Ribombee from C to C+

 

[Srn]

View attachment 134551

I feel like Ribombee should rise 1 sub rank, because it is better than Araquanid as a Webs Setter imo and it has much more versatility to offer. It can run a wide range of Moves like Moonblast Quiver Dance HP ground/HP fire to catch Heatran, Kartana and Ferrothorn and also Stun Spore to cripple opposing mons.
It's high Speed prevents it from being Taunted by most of the common Taunt Users.
Ribombee from C to C+

I disgree with ribombee rising because I think it isn't better than araquanid as a web setter. While its true that it has moves like stun spore to cripple torn-t and has high speed, its not fast enough for screens koko, which can just lead vs you, taunt you, and do its thing. At least araquanid can threaten a magic coat and not auto lose the lead matchup, and considering the potency and popularity of dual screens HO, its a very big advantage araquanid has over ribombee.

I also disagree with the general consensus that seems to be forming here that lando-t has lost its shine or something. I think thats totally wrong, and people seem to be thinking that lando-t is easy to handle just because scarf is the most common and easiest to fit. The fact remains that lando-t does not care about bulky grasses, it does not care about torn-t, and it does not care about frankly any defensive answers because SD z-move sets have zero counters. I think the lack of tour usage suggests lando-t is not the beast it once was, but lando-t with SD z-move sets are still just as threatening as any heatran and zygarde. There have even been sets like z-fly eq defog u-turn run before bc thats the kind of role compression and versatility that lando-t can offer. Moreover, I dont think that scarf lando-t being easy to handle is a terrible thing, regardless its still the best scarfer in the tier and I think its weird to punish lando-t for that. Just because your torn or your tang happens to handle lando-t 90% of the time because its scarf, its that 10% z-fly that should be scary enough to make you think twice. Sash lead is so effective at doing its job that its the most popular suicide rock setter and users like robopoke have literally resorted to using shit like gourgeist in the past bc they're so sick of it.

 

[xapx]

My own nom:

C+ => C

Fuck, why Araquanid is ranked higher than Ribombee? Both have the same niche but Bee does its task better because of superior Speed allowing it to set up webs before Taunt from the likes of Heatran and Torn, ability to bypass Fake Out flinch and cripple common anti-lead in M-Lop with Stun Spore, and ability to threaten M-Sableye, especially if Bee runs QD. Araqianid often struggles against Taunt users due to low Speed tier, loses to M-Sableye and, while able to set webs against M-Lop, hasnt any way to threaten it.

My thougts about some noms:

B+ => A- : Agree

With some new options like Moltres, Hippowdon, Avalugg stall becomes more diverse and effective playstyle. Utility that M-Sableye brings into stall teams is definitely great. Alongside Chansey, M-Sableye is a staple on stall teams rn, so it deserves a rise.

C- => C: Agree
shiny bro is cool
Ability to check some threatening attackers like Zygod, M-Medi, M-Lop, and Tran while not being very passive is really great. Although it isnt as bulky as its Mega forme, Bro is still solid physical wall and defensive pivot. The main difference from MBro is having a passive recovery and Regenerator troughout all battle at the cost of many bulk. C is fine for Bro.

B- => B: Disagree
shiny hydra is also cool
Hydra isnt as great as B mons like M-Cross, Alomomola and Mamo, for example. The main Hydra's problem is lacking of firepower and Speed. 125 SpA and 98 Spe, while not being bad, arent really great. Yeah, Scarf and Specs help to imrove its stats, but lack of Roost wont allow to consistently check Ash-Gren, which is one of the main Hydra's perks. I dont say that Hydra is bad, Hydra is pretty good, but not enough to be in B.

A+ => A: Disagree

Torn still is one of the best Defoggers in the tier, with consistensy provided by Regenerator, great role compression, being a stallbreaker with Taunt, both offensive and defensive pivot, check to the likes of Kart and great switch-in on U-turn with bulk spread and Rocky Helmet. Torn's Speed tier is solid, being faster than M-Latis, Kart, M-Diancie, etc. Ability for threaten Grasses is also great, and Torn benefits from Koko slightly dropped. Definitely A+.

I don't agree with dropping Araquanid, since it hits pretty hard with Liquidation and has decent defensive typing, cant be burnt and is a pretty solid option over ribombee if you aren't running Sticky Web HO.

Hydreigon rose not because of the choice sets. If you have read curiosity's OU Victim of the week or even the OU chat room, a set like this would have popped up: (Idk if the Analysis for that is up yet)

set

Hydreigon (M) @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 244 SpA / 32 SpD / 232 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Roost

This set allows Hydreigon to check non-Modest SteelZ Tran and Ash-G pretty well while hitting hard with DarkZ. Modest still allows it to outspeed Adamant Zygarde.

Edit: I think Srn explained the araquanid thing better than me, and Landorus is still a pretty threatening, albeit well prepared for, Pokemon in the OU tier