Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings

[m3po]

Bouffalant from Unranked to C+

To be honest, I feel this thing is unranked because people have simply forgotten about it. It's not exactly great like it used to be but it's far from being bad. And it's not like it has only one niche. Bulky SD, Choice Band, and Assault Vest are all very viable sets to run.

Bouffalant is incredibly bulky for a sweeper. 95/95/95 defenses make it the second bulkiest SD user in the tier, losing only to Type: Null and tying with Silvally. However, its niche over Type: Null is important; it actually has decent coverage options. That being said, Bouffalant's Return + Earthquake is only resisted by Oricorio-G, Haunter, Gourgeist, and Misdreavus (and maybe some other non-relevant Ghost-types).

Also, now that Stoutland is gone, I would say it's the best Normal-type CB user in the tier. Choice Band Head Charge + Reckless literally 2HKOes (if not OHKOes) anything that isn't resistant or immune to it. Superpower and Earthquake prevents it from being totally walled by Regirock.

power

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 415-489 (110.9 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 394-465 (109.4 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Bouffalant Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 219-258 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 247-292 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO even after +1 from Stamina

bulkiness

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 16 HP / 4 SpD Bouffalant: 271-321 (80.8 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Oricorio-Sensu Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 16 HP / 4 SpD Bouffalant: 283-334 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. 16 HP / 4 SpD Bouffalant: 255-301 (76.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 16 HP / 4 SpD Bouffalant: 301-355 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Liquidation vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Bouffalant: 270-320 (80.5 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The point is, this thing can take a hit even uninvested and can hit very hard in Return . Maybe it isn't as good as it was back in its glory days of Gen 6, but I definitely believe it deserves the honor of being ranked.

 

[MZ]

I know this has been a long time coming but I hope this massive overhaul was worth the wait. We're nowhere near rearranging the VR as the new meta continues to take shape, but here's a decent stab at it after a full council inspection. We added whatever personal nominations we had while also voting on everything in the thread, including nominations which came before tier shifts and made a lot more sense back then (see: dropping Floatzel while we still had Ferro/Gastro). Also Teddeh had to sit this one out unfortunately.

All nominations

Changes that went through

Altaria ranked at A-
Qwilfish ranked at A
Scyther ranked at A-
Froslass ranked at A
Omastar ranked at A
Kingler A+ to S
Pyroar A+ to S
Aggron A- to A+
Eelektross A+ to A
Swanna A+ to A
Hitmonchan A to A-
Weezing A to A-
Lanturn A- to A
Lycanroc A- to A
Togedemaru A- to A
Type: Null A- to B+
Abomasnow B+ to B
Musharna B+ to B
Raichu-Alola B+ to B
Sandslash-Alola B+ to A-
Poliwrath B to A-
Bellossom B to B+
Mudsdale B to B+
Oricorio-Pom-Pom B to B+
Persian-Alola B to B+
Combusken B- to B
Crabominable B- to B
Silvally-Dragon C+ to B
Golem B- to C+
Mr. Mime B- to C
Carbink C+ to C
Manectric C+ to B-
Silvally-Ghost C+ to B-
Silvally-Water C to B-
Jumpluff C to C+
Munchlax C to C+
Turtonator C to C+
Stunfisk D to C
Dusknoir C- to C
Ninetales C- to D
Noctowl C- to D
Wishiwashi C- to D
Gumshoos Unranked to C-
Rampardos Unranked to D
Komala C- to Unranked
Leavanny C- to Unranked
Dusclops D to Unranked
Golem-Alola D to Unranked
Gourgeist-Small D to Unranked
Hippopotas D to Unranked
Masquerain D to Unranked
Marowak D to Unranked
Rotom-Spin D to Unranked
Sliggoo D to Unranked
Swoobat D to Unranked
Togetic D to Unranked
Zebstrika D to Unranked

Nominations that were rejected

Carracosta A to A-
Jynx A to A+
Primeape A to A+
Drampa B+ to B
Floatzel B+ to B
Haunter B+ to B
Raticate-Alola B+ to B
Probopass B to B-
Ninjask D to Unranked
Ampharos Unranked to D
Regigigas Unranked to D
Electrode Unranked to D
Farfetch'd Unranked to D
Bouffalant Unranked to D

There is no chance I can explain all of this, if any of it seems confusing or out of nowhere, feel free to ask the discord/room/SQSA thread. A lot of them are common sense with the tier shifts (Hippopotas and Alolem unranked because no more Stoutland/Ferroseed are good examples of that), metagame shifts from a while back while we weren't updating the VR during PUPL (Aggron, Watervally and Dragvally all rose multiple ranks, as did Poliwrath due to our new S rank friends), cleaning up some really bad stuff in D rank, and just general minor changes we all agreed on like raising Togedemaru slightly.
Ranking the new drops was something we all agreed on for the most part. Qwilfish and Froslass are both changing the meta significantly with Spikes and are definite contenders to rise in the future, Omastar is a very dangerous sweeper that really impacts the speed tiers teams have to hit, Altaria is a not quite outstanding but still overall solid Defogger that has become a lot easier to pressure in this new meta, and Scyther is fairly strong but has a lot of bad matchups vs very common Pokemon like Togedemaru, Regirock, and Froslass.
As for the new S ranks, just a little bit of time playing PU or spectating tournaments such as PUPL should make it fairly evident how strong both Pyroar and Kingler are. They both have very few switchins, just lost some of their best counterplay, are capable of easily switching up coverage to annoy what few checks they do have without crippling themselves, and benefit greatly from the influx of Spikes. Their offensive presence is basically the reason behind balance struggling so much, and if you want to hear more about how dominating they are, HJAD and I talk about it on this week's Untier Talk. As always, the charts of who voted for what and how strongly we feel about things is viewable here. Anyway, feel free to go ahead and start nominating things for the new meta, I know I've already got several regarding the size of A and C-.

 

[asa]

(click the sprite for the set i'm referencing.)
K, gonna try and get these new nominations started with by nominating Rotom-F to go from C+ to B- at like 3 am. In my opinion, one thing that's gonna be important in this Spikes-filled metagame is having a remover that can also pressure the setters without generating a free turn for something in the back, with a common example of this being Hitmonchan versus pretty much every spinblocker bar Golurk to some degree. Rotom-F, at least from my experience, does a rather decent job at being an offensive Defogger, with its offensive typing and Speed tier giving it the ability to capitalize on certain drops in Qwilfish, Omastar, Altaria, and Scyther to some degree; older faces that have increased in usage like Regirock to some degree (not hard to wear this down + takes a lot from Z-Blizzard), Mudsdale, Poliwrath, Kingler, and bulky Oricorio formes; and some stops like Clefairy and Hitmonchan either not being used as much or not being as good as they used to be, respectively. Although Togedemaru and Lanturn are more prominent than they were before, both lack reliable recovery, both hate switching in on a potential Will-O-Wisp (depending on the Lanturn set), the former runs Iron Barbs more often than Lightning Rod and has lackluster bulk, and the latter can be easily worn down by other things like hazards and Pyroar (ban this Pokemon btw). Rotom-F also provides teams with some decent defensive presence given its decent bulk, workable typing, and useful immunity to Ground, which is notable because of this meaning that it's a remover that's immune to Spikes.

Another thing to note is that Pain Split, while not the most reliable, is a means of recovery that allows Rotom-F to mitigate that pesky Stealth Rock weakness as well as take advantage of Pokemon like Lanturn, and let's not forget that it offers teams with an offensive pivot because of Volt Switch, which is pretty good considering the switches its typing allows it to force + the overall viability of other pivots increasing + potential residual damage racking up. To sum it up, though threats like Pyroar and Lycanroc are very common and good, the role compression Rotom-F can provide teams with while still maintaining both decent offensive and defensive presence is pretty good at the moment, and I believe it deserves a slight rise because of this.

Not much else I could say about other stuff besides maybe moving Omastar up to at least A, or maybe even A+, but I am too tired for that, so

e: big fan of yogibears

 

[Conor3197]

Gorebyss B- -> C
With the introduction of Omastar to the tier, I feel like Gorebyss is no longer as good a choice as a specially offensive Shell Smash sweeper as it used to be. With better bulk, a higher Speed, higher Special Attack, and a better ability in Weak Armor there is no doubt that Omastar is going to be used on times 9 times out of 10 instead of Gorebyss. While Gorebysses pure Water-typing lets it take Fighting-type priority much better than Omastar, Omastar's additional Rock-typing gives it more opportunities to switch in against Pokemon, such as Normal-, Poison-,and Flying-types, and set up on them.

Victreebel C+ -> B-
With the offense direction the meta is taking, I really fancy Victreebel's ability to sweep late game with its Z Sleep Powder Swords Dance set. On offensive builds Victreebel's DUAL typing provides a lot of resistances, letting it switch in and often take a hit before either forcing a switch or using Z Sleep Powder to begin its set up. Given that a lot of defensive Pokemon rely on Toxic to chip offensive threats, Victreebels immunity to this helps it out a lot allowing it to sometimes even set up further on these Pokemon. Overall, thanks to it's amazing DUAL typing and it's high damage output, I feel that Victrebell fits the criteria of offensive builds very nicely at the moment.

 

[MZ]

Stoutland has been added to A-
e: Hippopotas has also been re-ranked at D for now

 

[tondas]

'sup peeps, just wanted to make a quick post talking about junkmons nobody rlly ever uses:

Probopass: B -> B-/C+
this seems quite harsh but there's really just no reason to use this anymore. Its ability to trap steels is inherently absent without ferroseed, and its only real niche in the tier boils down to revenging choice-locked/taunt rocks aggron. it's just not good.

Crustle: C+ -> C
fierce competition with omastar as a lead entry hazard spammer and qwilfish as a spiker in general is a huge liability for it, as well as spikestack teams in general shifting towards a rocker/spiker/remover style for entry hazards to be up more consistently. it has okay role compression if you really need two hazards up and a lead weakened, but there will be many instances where you'll wish you'd be using something like oma or qwil + mes.

Smeargle: C+ -> C
not being able to viably run mental herb for a lead as niche and slow as this is a huge liability where a bunch of faster taunt users are becoming more prevalent, and alongside extreme predictability, smeargle is very exploitable as a lead to the point where it's almost dead weight in a handful of games.

Vigoroth: C- -> D
likewise with probopass, its ability to taunt and set up on ferroseed was a huge perk for it being a bulky wincon that could differentiate between null, and with ferro gone and teams looking for a consistent check to special breakers, vigoroth struggles a lot. doesn't help that froslass also exists as a fast taunting ghost that completely ruins its chances of sweeping.

two nominations I'd like to echo:

frostom up to b-: yeah absolutely.
won't reiterate too much but its ability to dismantle spikestack cores, defog, and generate momentum all into one slot is really valuable, and its increase in usage in pupl towards the end reflects this.

gorebyss down: sure, but maybe not to C. Its main niche right now is being able to break past poli with psychic and having a pure water typing so rain checks like vest chan can't just revenge with mach punch. this is fairly niche, but then again so is the archetype as a whole so :shrug:

 

[UberSkitty]

Haven't posted anything here in a while, welp time to change that with some big VR noms. And some less big VR noms. Also they'll probably be on the shorter side since there's so many of them. AKA I'm lazy.

Rises:

Qwilfish: A -> A+
With Spikes being so relevant in the current meta, Qwilfish stands as one of the main setters. It also has various utility options including Toxic Spikes, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Destiny Bond, and Haze which work well alongside its solid base 85 Speed. With access to Intimidate and a nice defensive typing, Qwilfish is able to switch in against various physical attackers like Hitmonchan and Scyther, giving it more opportunities to spam Spikes. Qwilfish's typing is good on the offensive side too, supplying good coverage alongside potential Burns and Poisons, making it not a complete dead weight in many situations. It can also serve as a Rain sweeper, with its ability to check Hitmonchan and access to Swords Dance making it a primary option on Rain teams.

Omastar: A -> A+
Omastar is simply a major offensive threat in PU. It has a great Special Attack and coverage, making it difficult to wall, especially after setting up a Shell Smash. Even with its low base Speed, the combination of Shell Smash and Weak Armor, or Swift Swim if serving as a Rain sweeper, make it extremely difficult to revenge kill without priority. And even priority, if not super-effective, can be an unreliable way to pick up the KO on Omastar due to its high physical bulk. This bulk alongside a solid defensive typing give it a good defensive presence too, making it all the easier to find opportunities to set up. And I haven't even mentioned its access to all three of Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes, meaning it can instead be run more defensively or as a suicide lead, if its Shell Smash set wasn't enough.

Kangaskhan: A -> A+
I nommed Kangaskhan for A a few months ago, and most still applies here. It's got good stats all around, double priority in Fake Out and Sucker Punch, Scrappy, and nice coverage options, with the main being Earthquake. So what's changed since then? First of all, Ferroseed leaving means Kangaskhan has one less threat to worry about running coverage for. Second, in the more offensive meta, its double priority is greatly appreciated, allowing Kangaskhan to revenge kill setup mons and faster threats like Kingler and Froslass. Finally, Kangaspikes is really popular right now, and rightfully so, with two great Spike setters in Qwilfish and Froslass making it easier to break through teams.

Stoutland: A- -> A
I don't know why Stoutland is lower than when it first rose to NU. If anything, its only gotten better since, with Ferroseed rising, making Frustration all the more spammable, and the hazards making it somewhat difficult for checks like Regirock to switch constantly switch in. Stoutland can even abuse Toxic Spikes, as it allows for a Banded STAB base 140 Facade. Not much more to it, Stoutland is just a really solid wallbreaker. Oh yeah and it can be a Sand sweeper. Yep.

Crabominable: B -> B+
Crabominable is a cool Assault Vest user, being one of the best switchins to Aurorus, as well as a solid blanket check for many special attackers like Lilligant and Alolan Exeggutor. It also offers a good offensive presence with its great Attack stat and near-unresisted STAB combination, alongside Drain Punch to maintain health and Earthquake to hit Qwilfish and Froslass. It can also live a hit from either Z-move or Choice Specs Pyroar from full, while OHKOing in return, so there's that.

Kabutops: B -> B+
This is the last Rain sweeper nom, I swear. But in all seriousness Kabutops offers a good offensive presence even outside of Rain, being able to run Swords Dance or Choice Scarf. This is especially nice alongside its good STAB coverage, priority in Aqua Jet, and various utility options such as Rapid Spin and Knock Off. Just an overall solid offensive threat, especially in Rain.

Tangela: B- -> B
B- is just too low for such a large defensive threat, as Tangela serves as a great switchin for so many physical threats such as Stoutland, Lycanroc, and Carracosta. It's somewhat difficult to wear down thanks to Regenerator, as well as various other means of recovery with Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Giga Drain. It also provides good utility with Knock Off, Sleep Powder, and the previously mentioned Leech Seed, or get a surprise KO with Leaf Storm on a more offensive set. While hazards do suck for a mon that depends on switching a lot, Regenerator does somewhat make up for that, giving it an edge over other physical walls like Regirock and Gourgeist-XL. Speaking of Gourgeist-XL, does it not bother anyone else that it's currently at a higher rank than Tangela? Not saying that was the whole reason for this nom, but still, lets change that.

Drops:

Clefairy: A+ -> A
While still being a solid check to many special attackers like Alolan Exeggutor, a fine Stealth Rock setter and Calm Mind user, and being immune to hazards, the meta just hasn't been nice to Clefairy. It is crippled greatly by Taunt, which has become very common on the likes of Pyroar, Qwilfish, Oricorio-Sensu, and Froslass. It doesn't help that it isn't as reliable of a switchin to certain special attackers, having a slim chance of being 2HKOed by Choice Specs Pyroar and Aurorus, and also fears utility like Trick from Choiced Mesprit and Froslass. Furthermore, it can be easily broken through via physical mons like Aggron and Stoutland, who are fairly common. It can still put in a lot of work, but it's just not A+ material anymore.

Misdreavus: B- -> C+
Misdreavus is another mon who just lost its main niche with the drops. Having served as a fast Ghost-type and spinblocker, setting off fast Will-O-Wisps and Taunts, it now faces large competition in Froslass. It does have some niches, with its immunity to Spikes, and Eviolite alongside a better defensive typing that gives it a better matchup against mons like Stone Edge Hitmonchan, but that just isn't enough to justify using it over Froslass a large amount of the time. This is especially when you consider the various other advantages Froslass has over Misdreavus, with its larger versatility, greater offensive presence, and access to Spikes.

Gumshoos: C- -> D / Unranked
This one was pretty obvious, since it was pretty much just a placeholder for Stoutland as a Normal-type wallbreaker. Now that Stoutland is back, it doesn't have much reason to be used, outside of some small niches in U-turn and a couple good abilities in Stakeout and Adaptability. So if its so obvious, why bother to make the nom? So I can take all the credit, duh.

Previous Noms:
I'm fine with pretty much all the noms made so far, but these two I wanted to "touch up" on.

Gorebyss: B- -> C
While Gorebyss does have a couple niches like not being weak to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, I just don't find it that justifiable over using Omastar, so I'm gonna have to side with Conor here. Also Poliwrath doesn't completely wall Omastar due to Z-Hyper Beam, so that kinda deflates that niche.

Crustle: C+ -> C- / D
Pretty much the same case as Gorebyss, except I find it to have even less niches over Omastar than Gorebyss, which is why I'd say it should drop further than C.

Also I hope to make a certain nom sometime in the future, but I need to get a few replays with battles in which I'm not screwed over by hax or some random Trick user, so be excited for that I guess. Assuming VR noms excite you.

 

[jklioe]

Omastar, Kangaskhan, and Qwilfish are all independently strong presences of whom I've always felt had a pull on the metagame to the extent that they have an extraordinarily defining presence surrounding it, and so I give my 100% personal backing with it. Qwilfish in the hazard stacking department has an astounding level of versatility for teams and this set, as well as the offensive set for rain teams, carve it a niche that gives it integral roles as a team player. It's probably the single most consistent player in the hazard game the tier has with loads of defensive utility, whose ability in checking Gurdurr, Kingler, and even Aggron to an extent are alone enough of an excuse to use it. Its presence for Rain teams is very influential as it's a functional sweeper and breaker that can absorb Toxic Spikes, break past traditional checks to specific rain sweepers, and even offer Spikes support for those archetypes also. Kangaskhan is one of the offensive centerpiece of an intently structured hazard stack builds and does a great job of capitalizing on the offensive metagame with its dominant blanket checking ability, with enough firepower to function reasonably well as an attacker that can break through a variety of bulky Pokemon with the hazard support involved. Omastar is just incredible in general, with so many options for customization as an offensive and defensive threat in general and is quite possibly the single most threatening dedicated sweeper in the tier with plenty of immediate presence between powerful Z-moves, utility in Weak Armor, and ability to fit in Rain. Defensive hazard and Lead sets are vastly underrated too with plenty of noteworthy strengths including its bulk and typing, not being passive, ability to stack up multiple hazards reliably in a way that's unprecedented, and ability to beat Defoggers with the appropriate coverage option. These Pokemon have so much mileage out of their use and are at the level in which they define the meta in ways that makes them totally suitable for A+, so I support.

Two nominations I've wanted to make:

A ---> A+
With the ability to prey on essentially the vast portion of the offensive metagame by virtue of its natural Speed threatening many offensive staples like Pyroar, Scyther, and Froslass, this Pokemon is absolutely phenomenal right now and is one of the most dominating offensive threats in recent times. Not only that, but most forms of defensive counterplay have notably fallen considerably out of favor, due to the combination of metagame shifts providing it a huge spark in viability and how many defensive options like Tangela and Pyukumuku require an immense amount of support to avoid being overwhelmed by popular Spikes-centric archetypes and VoltTurn abusers. Gurdurr and Hitmonchan (though Mach Punch doesn't OHKO while boosted Z Move OHKOs it, so eh) are still relevant threats, also they also have their own work cut out with valuable team players to Lycanroc like Scyther and Qwilfish invalidating their presence throughout the match, and defensive Pokemon that can naturally live a boosted Splintered Stormshards already have their work cut out by needing to keep themselves healthy to avoid being obliterated outright. Furthermore, it has prominent options for forms of priority, even impeding the efforts of Choice Scarf Togedemaru or Mesprit with a boosted Sucker Punch. Lycanroc as an offensive Pokemon probably also has the best overall match up against opposing offensive Pokemon and playstyles (threatening the aforementioned offensive Pokemon, exerting a lot of pressure to KangaSpikes builds, teams with Pokemon reliant of certain Choice Scarf Pokemon that succumb to its priority, etc), and as such is a very legitimate threat worth building around.

A- ---> A
I'm rather biased on this one thanks to my personal fondness for using it, hatred of playing against it, and the good showcasing it has had in tournaments so far. Other than that, the main thing that Scyther has going for it is being the focal key player in a lot of offensive teams for generating a large amount of momentum, and this is further cemented by its amazing synergy with a lot of offensive Pokemon that capitalize on the metagame such as Pyroar, Kingler, Primeape, Omastar, Aggron, offensive hazard stackers, and many more. Not only that, its offensive sets have varying degrees of solid offensive presence and defensive utility with its typing and ability to run Eviolite, allowing it to reliably capitalize on every relevant Grass-type as well as metagame staples like Gurdurr, Mesprit, and Hitmonchan. Its great speed also attributes to the massive amounts of momentum it can generate, as it can force a lot of Pokemon to play on the defensive and allow its team players to actively keep hazards off the field or apply pressure themselves. Speaking of hazards, Its notable Stealth Rock weakness can be worked around just fine, especially when you consider the natural sense of preparation in a Spikes-centric metagame and Scyther's own ability to check deterrents such as Primeape reasonably well. I would say that Scyther's main big flaw is that Rock-types such as Regirock and Omastar are big threats to it in practice, with Regirock needing to be worn down consistently for Scyther to do anything besides U-Turn and Omastar basically using it as set up fodder if it comes in a 1v1 scenario. Other threats I feel are less of an issue with practice, as Togedemaru, Pyroar, and Froslass have difficulties in forcing direct interactions with Scyther due to U-Turn pivoting and Aerial Ace being good at constantly chipping them. For these reasons, Scyther is in my eyes a strong consideration for moving up.

As for things moving down, I'll discuss them later once I'm more certain, but I think Gurdurr and Spiritomb are in a weird spot that makes them feel a tad underwhelming with the new threats they have trouble dealing with, so I'm interested in hearing where you guys stand with them.

 

[LordST]

Weird timing for a VR post in the middle of two suspects with the meta shifting constantly but here it comes buckle up bitches.

Spiritomb A+ --> A
This thing was top spinblocker for awhile in Ferroseed meta, but I feel it has fallen out of favor a bit in this more offensive meta. It faces competition with Froslass on spike stacking squads a lot, Primeape usage has dropped which was one of the most popular mons Tomb takes advantage of, and having something so slow can be a disadvantage in a meta full of strong wallbreakers like Aggron. It's still a solid mon with a place in the meta, but it no longer defines the spinblocking meta and it's niche has gotten smaller.

Eelektross A --> A-
I've been one of the biggest Eel defenders in the past as it always got a lot of hate in metas past, but I finally feel like its time for it to drop. Yes Qwilfish coming back does help it as its immunity to spikes makes it a decent abuser of qwil offense, but it suffers from the same problem Spiritomb does. Eel is generally used as part of a defensive core on bulky offensive type builds, but because of its atrocious speed the strong wallbreakers of the tier can too easily take advantage of it. In addition, with SD Scyther here now it can't really just be splashed on teams as your only flying check anymore. It can still be a nice abuser of balance cores that rely on Eviolite walls like Clef and Type Null as their special walls, but those kinds of teams are much less common in this meta.

Lilligant A --> A+
Losing Ferroseed really did make this thing insanely good. Without needing HP Fire, Lilligant is much harder to prep for now with all the potential options it can use. Between HP Rock, HP Ice, Z Hyper Beam, Z Sleep Powder, or even Specs, Lilligant has the ability to break past almost any of its traditional checks. This makes prepping for it in teambuilder incredibly difficult. Most people just slap Scarf Togedemaru on and call it a day, but unless Lilligant has already been chipped down to 60, it still has a chance to muscle past Toge pretty easily by either just Quivering a second time on the Toge and killing it with +2 Bloom Doom or LO HP Fire. For me personally, this mon is easily the most obnoxious threat to prep for, even more so thanPyroar and the late Kingler, and I feel like its severely underused. It would only get better if we lose Pyroar. Would love to hear more opinions on this guy.

Floatzel B+ --> A-
This mon is just straight up really good in this meta. Fast offensive metas favor Floatzel, especially ones where it can abuse Spikes to turn 2hkoes into ohkos. So many teams don't run very sturdy water resists anymore with most teams just relying on Qwilfish or Eelektross as their water resists with Kingler gone now. Lanturn can be a good stop but easily gets worn down by partners other offensive partners like Pyroar or just hazard stack. Its amazing speed tier makes it a great way to revenge Pyroar. Even if Pyroar is banned I can see it still getting better with less incentive to use Lanturn. Just a great pick in the meta rn.

Kabutops B --> B+
Can't really speak to it on rain because I still think rain is ok at best, but Scarf Kabu is really nice role compression. Being a Pyroar + birb check as well as emergency spin makes it a great option for teams with ways of dealing with Lilligant(as Kabu can't revenge it). Similar to Scarf Aurorus, it also destroys standard rain teams as it outspeeds everything and gets boosted Liquidations. Again don't think rain is very good but ladder likes to spam it so its a great pick there. I find myself more comfortable fitting this on teams over the former king Hitmonchan more often lately and just feel like B kinda undersells its capabilities.

Musharna B --> Shadow Realm (C+)
Poor Mush just can't catch a break. This is just the absolute worst meta for it. Skunk is as popular as ever(special sets too making it even worse for Mush), Spikes run the meta which Mush hates, Aggron is top tier, SD Scyther is a thing that counters it even if rocks are up, I could go on. The only reason I could ever see using this is wanting an incredibly solid Gurdurr counter, but on the teams as passive as they would have to be to accomodate Musharna i'd probably just use Pyukumuku anyways. Delete this thing. Remember when we almost banned it lol

Rotom-Frost C+ --> B
C+ is severely underselling this guy. it takes huge advantage of a lot of the tiers most common hazard setters, especially our spikers. Having a favorable matchup vs Qwilfish, Froslass, and Weezing is huge. Even vs the common rockers of the tier it can put a lot of pressure on with Z Blizzard(doing about 65 to both Mesprit and Regirock). Its unique typing + ground immunity paired with some respectable bulk even uninvested means it can also provide some crucial defensive utilty as a solid ice + some birds resist. The main stays of Blizzard and Defog are great but there's also a plethora of options to run in the rest of it's slots. Between Tbolt, Volt Switch, Willo, Hp Fighting, Pain Split, etc. Rotom is not only unpredictable but also able to tailor well to a teams specific needs. When I look at a lot of the mons in B then at Rotom it feels like a no brainer that it should be there in the current meta.

Agreeing/Disagreeing with things

Dont really have any strong feelings one way or the other for Kanga and Qwil to A+. Can see the arguments for both ways would love to see some more discussion on these two in particular.

Hard disagree with Oma to A+. Disregarding the fact that I don't really think its enough of a meta factor compared to the rest of A+, I don't even think it's that good to begin with. Sure its one of the best wallbreakers in the tier after it sets up and its guaranteed a kill most of the time when it gets a SS up, but splashing checks to it is quite easy. Mach Punch is quite reliable especially considering you the Oma might be -1 or even -2 Def if you aren't running White Herb. Chipping it into Mach range isn't very hard considering Oma's terrible defensive typing. Scarf Toge is also the most widely spammed scarfer in the tier which can always revenge it unless you're dumb with weak armor. It's certainly a strong threat but not quite on the level of A+.

I could see it rising back to A, but honestly I haven't seen it used once since it dropped back from NU. I'd like to see a few results first because there are a few points to be made for why its worse than when it was last here. Helmet Qwil in general can be a nuisance. Regirock also gets spammed a lot thanks to Pyroar.

Agreed. AV is platinum good.

Agree with dropping Clef. There is so much Taunt in this meta which cripples Clef immensely. Being immune to hazards is great, but with so many strong physical breakers like Aggron to abuse Clef's passive nature Magic Guard becomes less useful.

Agree with rising this. This mon is an absolute menace to any team without a Gurdurr or Mudsdale. The recent Sucker Punch adaptation also makes a traditional hard check in Scarf Togedemaru no longer so. In a similar vein to Floatzel, Lycanroc just abuses the current meta trends of offensive teams and spike stacking so well.

Resident #1 Scyther Supporter here! Rise this thing don't let propaganda from the likes Anty tell you its bad they're just fake news.

I'd love to see more discussion and nominations here the meta is rapidly changing these days.

 

[m3po]

Aurorus from A+ to S

Aurorus is undeniably a top tier threat with only Hitmonchan (and a few other niche ones like Bronzor and Wormadam Trash) being reliable counters. Specs Blizzard + Hail damage can 2HKO almost everything that doesn't resist, barring stuff like Clefairy and the aforementioned counters. Also, it has HP Rock, Freeze Dry, and Earth Power to kill checks like opposing Aurorus, Lanturn, and Probopass.

Abomasnow from B to B+

In my opinion, B is a little too low for Aboma. Yes, Aurorus is better than it in nearly every possible way but it's still pretty terrifying to see one of these late game. In addition to outspeeding Aurorus, Abomasnow has it niche due to its coverage moves and Ice Shard. It can run a viable mixed LO set, Scarf set, or Swords Dance set to circumvent its checks and counters. It can also 2HKO Gurdurr on the switch with Blizzard without fearing Mach Punch as much as Aurorus.

Mr. Mime from C to B-

Mr. Mime @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Focus Blast / Substitute

Due to the prevalence of Hitmonchan, Gurdurr, Spiritomb, and Weezing, this thing is pretty good. It's a great Nasty Plot sweeper as a +2 Twinkle Tackle OHKOes Skuntank and Mesprit. It is a fantastic stall breaker and comfortably sets up on passive walls like defensive Mesprit, Audino, and Clefairy. It also has Focus Blast to deal with would-be checks (Aggron, Togedemaru, Probopass, etc.)

Poliwrath from A- to B

Poliwrath is a solid niche pokemon but just isn't as useful now that Kingler is gone. Scyther and Qwilfish aren't helping it either. Here are its pros

• Can check physical Rain sweepers (and Omastar)
• Has Circle Throw
• Can run a decent special set (Waterium Z, Fightinium Z, specs)

Besides the things listed above, it doesn't do anything that Gurdurr and Hitmonchan can't do. Poliwrath usually requires extensive support and can get worn down quickly. It's not like Gurdurr or Hitmonchan, who can easily be slapped onto a team as a blanket check. Nevertheless, I think Kingler's ban is the main reason Poli shouldn't be A-.

 

[Darkinium]

The Aurorus one is the only nomination I really disagree with that I'm going to address in this post (Poli could perhaps drop to B+, but I've never used it and I'm told it's great glue so I won't touch that. Not really motivated to argue against Abomasnow and Mr. Mime, either, since the fact that they were dropped in a recent shift makes the general opinion on that rather clear.)

So, Aurorus is, without a doubt, one of if not the best wallbreakers in the tier. However, the reasoning is, to be honest, rather barren for such a major, and controversial, nomination, and does little to address the flaws surrounding it that prevent it from rising to S. Yes, it's strong. But it's also slow. Its defensive typing is awful. It's vulnerable to Rocks, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. Once it picks up a kill, it's nothing short of complete bait for a Primeape, Togedemaru, or what have you, and in turn bouncing the momentum back to the opponent. Even Pokemon such as Qwilfish can revenge kill a weakened Aurorus with Liquidation, forcing it out and making for an easy (Toxic) Spike. It struggles against offensive builds because it has a hard time catching a break with the aforementioned poor typing, speed, and durability.

Choice Scarf sets can certainly alleviate the offense matchup. Except, most if not all offensive builds carry some form of special glue, be it Hitmonchan, who's the best remover for Spike-based teams, Lanturn, who keeps the momentum flowing with Volt Switch, and Eelektross, who does the same but is harder to beat defensively. Without Choice Specs, Aurorus is suddenly so much easier to switch into, with the aforementioned tanks, Clefairy, and even offensive picks like Togedemaru.

Essentially, Aurorus' downfall is its speed and awful defensive typing. Yes, it's good at picking up kills, but it's easy to revenge kill, double switch around, or just wear down even with extensive hazard control support. Although a bit old now, this Untier Talk episode also highlights the flaws that prevented, and still prevents, Aurorus from meriting a suspect test, as well as rising to S. If someone agrees with the original nomination and wants to back it up with a response to this post, feel free to do so, but without addressing the flaws of the Pokemon in question, changing the general opinion on an Aurorus rise is going to be rough.

 

[SergioRules]

Poliwrath from A- to B

Poliwrath is a solid niche pokemon but just isn't as useful now that Kingler is gone. Scyther and Qwilfish aren't helping it either. Here are its pros

• Can check physical Rain sweepers (and Omastar)
• Has Circle Throw
• Can run a decent special set (Waterium Z, Fightinium Z, specs)

Besides the things listed above, it doesn't do anything that Gurdurr and Hitmonchan can't do. Poliwrath usually requires extensive support and can get worn down quickly. It's not like Gurdurr or Hitmonchan, who can easily be slapped onto a team as a blanket check. Nevertheless, I think Kingler's ban is the main reason Poli shouldn't be A-.

Since Darkinium hit the Aurorus point, I guess I'll hit Poliwrath since I've used it a ton.

The pros you listed are very niche at best and don't even begin to describe what Poliwrath does at all. Water Absorb makes it a check to rain teams but rain is a very niche playstyle in a tier with two very good auto hail setters, Circle Throw isn't generally considered standard, and offensive sets are not what Poliwrath is used for unless you're using it on a rain team.
Poliwrath is a glue mon that checks several big threats. Kingler was one of the main things it beat in the past, but its not like that was the only thing it checked. Here's a short list of all the things it can check or outright beat taken straight from the existing VR.

Poli isn't bad, you guys are just mean

S-Rank

• Skuntank

A-Rank

A+

• Aggron
• Aurorus
• Regirock
• Spiritomb

A

• Carracosta
• Froslass
• Lycanroc
• Omastar

A-

• Poliwrath
• Sandslash-Alola

B-Rank

B+

• Drampa
• Dugtrio-Alola
• Floatzel
• Mudsdale
• Persian-Alola
• Pinsir
• Raticate-Alola
• Sableye
• Type: Null

B

• Absol (non-Play Rough)
• Audino
• Combusken
• Crabominable
• Golurk
• Gourgeist-Super
• Kabutops
• Probopass

B-

• Gorebyss
• Liepard
• Pyukumuku
• Silvally-Water

That list is just mons B- and above. Poliwrath is a super good check to a lot of stuff and its added Water-typing gives it a lot of resistances that Gurdurr and Hitmonchan don't have. In fact, SubToxic makes Poliwrath worth using on almost any team as it greatly improves your matchup against stall. Gurdurr and Hitmonchan can't beat Pyukumuku and Gourgeist-XL, and neither can beat things like Mudsdale.

So to refute your claims: Poliwrath actually does a lot that Gurdurr and Hitmonchan can't do; Poliwrath doesn't require that much support because it likely is the support; Gurdurr cannot be slapped on a team as a blanket check since it's a wincon, not meant to outright check things and Hitmonchan is a specially defensive tank while Poliwrath is better for physical hits; while Poliwrath was mainly used to check Kingler, imo the ban actually helped it because now it doesn't even have to worry about random SD Superpower sets that would have destroyed it and can instead focus more on taking on other physical threats.

PS: sorry if this comes off as rude, I just don't like people talking shit about my boy Poliwrath since I was one of the first people to nominate it for a rise (after yogi)

 

[m3po]

The Aurorus one is the only nomination I really disagree with that I'm going to address in this post (Poli could perhaps drop to B+, but I've never used it and I'm told it's great glue so I won't touch that. Not really motivated to argue against Abomasnow and Mr. Mime, either, since the fact that they were dropped in a recent shift makes the general opinion on that rather clear.)

So, Aurorus is, without a doubt, one of if not the best wallbreakers in the tier. However, the reasoning is, to be honest, rather barren for such a major, and controversial, nomination, and does little to address the flaws surrounding it that prevent it from rising to S. Yes, it's strong. But it's also slow. Its defensive typing is awful. It's vulnerable to Rocks, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. Once it picks up a kill, it's nothing short of complete bait for a Primeape, Togedemaru, or what have you, and in turn bouncing the momentum back to the opponent. Even Pokemon such as Qwilfish can revenge kill a weakened Aurorus with Liquidation, forcing it out and making for an easy (Toxic) Spike. It struggles against offensive builds because it has a hard time catching a break with the aforementioned poor typing, speed, and durability.

Choice Scarf sets can certainly alleviate the offense matchup. Except, most if not all offensive builds carry some form of special glue, be it Hitmonchan, who's the best remover for Spike-based teams, Lanturn, who keeps the momentum flowing with Volt Switch, and Eelektross, who does the same but is harder to beat defensively. Without Choice Specs, Aurorus is suddenly so much easier to switch into, with the aforementioned tanks, Clefairy, and even offensive picks like Togedemaru.

Essentially, Aurorus' downfall is its speed and awful defensive typing. Yes, it's good at picking up kills, but it's easy to revenge kill, double switch around, or just wear down even with extensive hazard control support. Although a bit old now, this Untier Talk episode also highlights the flaws that prevented, and still prevents, Aurorus from meriting a suspect test, as well as rising to S. If someone agrees with the original nomination and wants to back it up with a response to this post, feel free to do so, but without addressing the flaws of the Pokemon in question, changing the general opinion on an Aurorus rise is going to be rough.

I agree with everything you said but let’s not forget that Hail is a another reason Aurorus shines. When one builds a team, one of the main questions is whether that team can beat hail.

Aurorus + Alolan Sandslash puts so much pressure on the current meta and is one of the big reasons Hitmonchan is so common. You mentioned that Aurorus has many checks (Togedemaru, Primeape, Clefairy, etc.) but I’d like to say that AlolaSlash deals with almost all of them.

It’s very easy to put Aurorus and AlolaSlash on the same team even if the rest of your team has nothing to do with hail. Snow Warning is just an amazing ability that can facilitate an AlolaSlash sweep at any given time. In other words, you could be completely backed into a corner, but you’re fine since Aurorus and AlolaSlash can just pick off the remaining threats late game.

I know this may be against popular opinion, but I’ve felt very restricted when it comes to teambuilding. I just think that hail is almost broken with the main issue being Aurorus (not to mention its specs set).

Overall, I completely understand where youre coming from but I just wanted to put my two cents in as to why I think Aurorus is more than good.

 

[Katy]

Lilligant A --> A+
Losing Ferroseed really did make this thing insanely good. Without needing HP Fire, Lilligant is much harder to prep for now with all the potential options it can use. Between HP Rock, HP Ice, Z Hyper Beam, Z Sleep Powder, or even Specs, Lilligant has the ability to break past almost any of its traditional checks. This makes prepping for it in teambuilder incredibly difficult. Most people just slap Scarf Togedemaru on and call it a day, but unless Lilligant has already been chipped down to 60, it still has a chance to muscle past Toge pretty easily by either just Quivering a second time on the Toge and killing it with +2 Bloom Doom or LO HP Fire. For me personally, this mon is easily the most obnoxious threat to prep for, even more so thanPyroar and the late Kingler, and I feel like its severely underused. It would only get better if we lose Pyroar. Would love to hear more opinions on this guy.

I agree with a Lilligant rise. It will become much better, when Pyroar leaves and one enemy of Lilligant is gone. Lilligant puts pressure on Offense after +1 QD Boost. This monster is capable of putting other mons to sleep with sleep powder and sets up on it.

Lilligant to A+ AGREE

Aurorus from A+ to S

Aurorus is undeniably a top tier threat with only Hitmonchan (and a few other niche ones like Bronzor and Wormadam Trash) being reliable counters. Specs Blizzard + Hail damage can 2HKO almost everything that doesn't resist, barring stuff like Clefairy and the aforementioned counters. Also, it has HP Rock, Freeze Dry, and Earth Power to kill checks like opposing Aurorus, Lanturn, and Probopass.

I Agree here too, Aurorus and AlolaSlash especially is scary to face. This monster is kinda similiar to Pyroar. Many Sets you have to scout for. Aurorus is one very dominating mon in the current metagame. And checks are not always a check, when u scout the set wrong or your opponent predicts right and gets an EPower off on Togedemaru.
It can run Icy Rock too to give AlolaSlash more turns to double it's Speed and nothing really switches into the Specs set besides Probopass. But checks as Lanturn and other waters get reverse checked by a strong Freeze-Dry. Also they get worn down by Stealth Rocks and the permanent pressure to come in on this mon.

Aurorus to S AGREE

 

[Sir Pin]

Abomasnow from B to B+

In my opinion, B is a little too low for Aboma. Yes, Aurorus is better than it in nearly every possible way but it's still pretty terrifying to see one of these late game. In addition to outspeeding Aurorus, Abomasnow has it niche due to its coverage moves and Ice Shard. It can run a viable mixed LO set, Scarf set, or Swords Dance set to circumvent its checks and counters. It can also 2HKO Gurdurr on the switch with Blizzard without fearing Mach Punch as much as Aurorus.

Hear, hear! Seeing as Fire types won't be nearly as prominent when Pyroar leaves Abomasnow will have a chance to shine. It also fits nicely on hail teams which are common and strong this meta.

Edit: Concerning Pyroar

Now Pyroar is gone I thought I'd nominate some unranked Fire mons that many believe to be successors. I may or may not edit this post in the future to add more of said nominations, but for now I'll start with my favourite.

oops wrong picture

Heatmor from Unranked to D/C-

Heatmor @ Firium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Giga Drain / Solar Beam
- Sunny Day

Heatmor already has the highest HP and Sp. Atk stats of all PU Fire-types, and perfect type coverage to back it up. With Z-Sunny Day, it also outspeeds every other Fire-type in the tier as well as most of the current metagame, including non-scarfed Scyther. This allows Heatmor to become a powerful late-game cleaner, hitting incredibly hard with a sun-boosted Fire Blast or baiting Water/Rock switch-ins like Kabutops and killing with Giga Drain. What's great about Z-Sunny Day is that it also gives Heatmor a chance to use Solar Beam, which gives it more power but less sustain. Alternatively, the Firium Z can be saved for a one-time nuke, capable of OHKOing defensive Mesprit. A handy ability in Flash Fire also gives Heatmor the opportunity to switch into Fire attacks, boosting it's Fire Blast to insane levels.

What I love about Heatmor is it's tools. It (and only it) gets Fire Lash, which diminishes walls to dust after a few turns. It gets Sucker Punch, which allows it to revenge kill despite it's low speed. Taunt and Will-O-Wisp can help against cripple mons. Hah, even a Gluttony/Recycle set can be fun. This versatility allows Heatmor to both surprise the opponent and fit onto various different teams. This mon is amazing.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-800244040
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-800260272

Simisear from Unranked to D/C-

Simisear @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Grass Knot

Simisear's big shining quality is it's access to Nasty Plot, which helps it to boost it's Sp. Atk to levels capable of sweeping teams. To compensate for it's lack of bulk, it has a brilliant speed tier, allowing it to outspeed common threats such as scarfed Aurorus. Due to this ability to setup and sweep, Simisear makes for a great wallbreaker if you can pull off a Nasty Plot. An ability like Blaze is useful as if Simisear does survive a hit, it's Fire Blast hits back like a truck. It gets access to decent coverage moves too, most notably Grass Knot which allows it to OHKO special walls like Claydol which would otherwise be difficult to kill.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simisear Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Regirock: 460-543 (126.3 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simisear Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Regice: 416-491 (138.2 - 163.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-800617984
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-800620962

 

[asa]

I'm not really in favor of raising Hitmonchan right now, at the very least not up to A+. Being able to serve as an offensive check to threatening special attackers like Aurorus, Omastar, and Ludicolo is still great; as is the access to priority allowing you to snipe hail cores, ability to remain decently healthy with Drain Punch, and spin away hazards while still fitting on offensive teams. However, you're forced to pick between one of Stone Edge, Thunder Punch, or Ice Punch to deal with Pokemon like Froslass, Qwilfish, and Altaria, and when you consider that two of those are (quite common) entry hazard setters, the former of which also spinblocks, that it can't beat without the appropriate coverage move, it really prevents Hitmonchan from being as reliable or good at removing as you make it out to be. The fact it can't remove as reliably as it wants against these examples, as well as others like Mesprit, Mudsdale, and Golurk (2xTheTap reminded me about this last one. Use this Pokemon btw, really good rn.), also sort of limits its ability to reliably check certain special attackers given that it's prone to being worn down and completely reliant on Drain Punch for recovery. Physical threats that can overwhelm it like Kangaskhan and Scyther also becoming more common is also problematic, and I've found that Choice Scarf Kabutops is more consistent as a spinner because of its ability to actively threaten most hazard setters, although it doesn't possess the same defensive utility that Hitmonchan does. Though Weezing hasn't been used as much and there's been a slight decline in Ghost-types bar Froslass, I don't feel like Hitmonchan deserves the rise atm.

 

[EviGaro]

The problem with the Golurk matchup isn't that it cannot do damage to it, though Golurk always live a hit from the bulkier variants even without a berry, it's that it really cannot hit both Golurk and Froslass - and Qwilfish - if you want to keep its moveset somewhat consistent, and for an hazard remover, lack of consistency is a massive problem. As such, you always need a backup plan when using Hitmonchan if you want to run a team that relies on removal to perform well. A Skuntank for example, since TSpikes also kill Hitmonchan's ability to perform, but then you are compromising a lot on a fighting type that is decent but seriously not exceptional compared to a Gurdurr just to... run double removal? A decent special sponge that can just really keep dangerous threats in check but offers little in giving you momentum in return?

 

[Dazzling Gleamstar]

Skuntank from S --> A+

So this has been bugging me for a little while, and IDK how controversial this statement is, but I really think skuntank needs to drop from S rank. A little while ago, I found myself noticing that skuntank just really felt a lot weaker than it had a while ago. It feels to me like Skuntank has remained in S tier as long as it has because of how long Mesprit has remained in S tier, and Skuntank has in the past been able to consistently defog and pursuit trap vs mesprit. But I started really looking into thinkgs and it really feels to me like skuntanks time in the spotlight is really nearing its end. The main thing for me is that it no longer is a very consistent defogger. Apart from mesprit, it loses to almost every hazard setter in the tier, some noteworthy mentions being Regirock (who just became ever more useful thanks to scyther dropping a while back), Qwilfish, Omastar, even something like froslass can pretty easily come out on top by wisping if defensive or layering up spikes, taunting the defog, and then destiny bonding if suicide lead to trade the hazard setter for the enemy hazard remover. This plus the fact that it's still pretty threatened by some big threats like Aggron and Aurorus, especially Aggron who can switch into physical Skuntank very easily. The specially offensive set is picking up more traction, but even that set struggles to even 2hko qwilfish, and loses out on a lot of the utility skuntank has in the past been sought after for, with pursuit or priority for checking things like Ghosticorio, Jynx, or setup sweepers like Omastar or Lilligant who have started boosting their speed. And as a special attacker (or tbh, even the physical set) it faces problems against Hitmonchan who has been very popular as a spinner (now that pyroar is gone this might not be "as" prominent but due to the lack of spinners it's still going to be an issue for skuntank in the future), Poliwrath who seems to be gaining more traction, as well as once again Regirock. I'm not here to call Skuntank bad, dropping from S to A+ hardly classifies a mon as bad. But honestly S tier just feels like a bit of a stretch to me.

 

[Anty]

Qwilfish and Frosslass should go to A+

It should be evident to anyone watching the seasonal lately how dominant Spikes are in this metagame since almost every game in these latest rounds have involved Spikes which shows how spikes completely dominate this metagame. For example:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-798359217
This game Spikes puts Tangela in range of continental and kabutops in range of Jet which really sealed the deal for pilz

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-793898434
This kinda shows the main offense builds here where both spikers are staples on each team, with spikes pretty much defining the game

Even when Spikes don't do too much in games you can see how the game is played with Spikes involved to the point where from a teambuilding aspect you have to deal with Spikes as importantly as any big threat. The tier is very grounded with pretty much every defensive mon aside from clefairy/weezing/mes being vulnerable Spikes, not to mention how some of our best removal (chan and silvallys) are severely hindered by it. The support it provides for Pokemon like Kangaskhan and Lycanroc is immense as it has the ability to put most of their offensive checks (notably scarfers) into range of their priority while heavily chipping their defensive checks which lack recovery (such as Regirock and Gurdurr).

What makes Froslass and Qwilfish so amazing too is that they provide great support outside of Spikes. Lass' fighting immunity is invaluable in allowing it to pivot in and make fighting types question going for a fighting move, and Will-o-Wisp is incredibly useful for ruining phys skunk wanting to check teammates such as lilligant. Lass' offensive capabilities also shouldnt be underrated as we've seen with Z being able to lure Pokemon like Aggron, and WispHex being extremely annoying for teams without Clefairy by weakening their special pivots like lanturn. Qwilfish again provides a great fighting check, except you can actually switch into Fighting types, and is one of the few Pokemon which heavily punishes opponents which stay in with weak attackers with Rocky Helmet and the threat of Spikes. Similar to Lass, its really isn't passive beyond spiking as it can Taunt anything setting up and STAB liquidation provides a threat to breakers such as Auroras. Both mons also have some ability to reset spikes which is pretty nice given some of the best removers dont have recovery (silvally chan skunk), and they provide different support, and though they usually compete for a teamslot often Qwilspikes and Lasspikes teams look a bit different for that reason. Lastly both mons are reasonably flexible, with not all lass' running spikes (ive seen a few tricks set) and can have different coverage moves and Z's, while qwilfish fits on proper defensive teams like stall and is a staple on rain

 

[Idkidc]

Skuntank from S --> A+

So this has been bugging me for a little while, and IDK how controversial this statement is, but I really think skuntank needs to drop from S rank. A little while ago, I found myself noticing that skuntank just really felt a lot weaker than it had a while ago. It feels to me like Skuntank has remained in S tier as long as it has because of how long Mesprit has remained in S tier, and Skuntank has in the past been able to consistently defog and pursuit trap vs mesprit. But I started really looking into thinkgs and it really feels to me like skuntanks time in the spotlight is really nearing its end. The main thing for me is that it no longer is a very consistent defogger. Apart from mesprit, it loses to almost every hazard setter in the tier, some noteworthy mentions being Regirock (who just became ever more useful thanks to scyther dropping a while back), Qwilfish, Omastar, even something like froslass can pretty easily come out on top by wisping if defensive or layering up spikes, taunting the defog, and then destiny bonding if suicide lead to trade the hazard setter for the enemy hazard remover. This plus the fact that it's still pretty threatened by some big threats like Aggron and Aurorus, especially Aggron who can switch into physical Skuntank very easily. The specially offensive set is picking up more traction, but even that set struggles to even 2hko qwilfish, and loses out on a lot of the utility skuntank has in the past been sought after for, with pursuit or priority for checking things like Ghosticorio, Jynx, or setup sweepers like Omastar or Lilligant who have started boosting their speed. And as a special attacker (or tbh, even the physical set) it faces problems against Hitmonchan who has been very popular as a spinner (now that pyroar is gone this might not be "as" prominent but due to the lack of spinners it's still going to be an issue for skuntank in the future), Poliwrath who seems to be gaining more traction, as well as once again Regirock. I'm not here to call Skuntank bad, dropping from S to A+ hardly classifies a mon as bad. But honestly S tier just feels like a bit of a stretch to me.

I second this. Skuntank has felt too underwhelming for the S Rank. It's bulk and damage output can feel very mediocre at times. It can't beat most hazard setter and doesn't even reliably counter Mesprit. Offensive Mesprit 2hkos at least and a Pursuit won't do much to defensive colbur berry. It's still a very reliable defogger and it has many viable sets making me think it's A+ material.

 

[MZ]

I'm not against Skunk dropping per-say, but it's hard to exactly figure out S rank at the moment. I feel like there is a rift with Skuntank, Mesprit, Aggron and Sensu being better than the rest of A+, but I'm also not sure that they are so much better that any of them are really meta-dominating, S rank Pokemon. This is something I'm just gonna have to think about a lot and work out before our next VR update (probably mondayish), just wanted to throw it out there that Skunk is still good and I don't think Mesprit as a solo-S rank would be entirely right.

The worse Pokemon in A+ and most of A rank are also pretty close, personally what I'd do is drop Clefairy and Spiritomb and raise Froslass, Qwilfish, and Lilligant. Neither Clefairy nor Spiritomb really benefit from where the meta is right now and even just usage in tours should reflect how they aren't at the dominating level they might've been pre-tier shift. The 3 rises also got talked about and I agree with the reasoning above, it's also worth considering moving Kanga and Lycan up but I don't /quite/ think they're there yet.

Stoutland should go up to A next to Kangaskhan, both are just really really good breakers with one doing better vs balance and one doing better vs offense, I don't think Kangaskhan is that much better that it should stay a subrank ahead. Carracosta can drop to A-, I still think it's scary as hell but Omastar is clearly the superior smasher and rocker. Moving down, Crabominable can still rise to B+ because it's crab and we were being conservative with the first jump to B.

I'd like to see Ludicolo bumped to B rank, it neatly sidesteps the typical Omastar prep of "grab a scarfer or Mach Punch" and is generally great because of how focused people are on different water types. Spoke about Ludi on Untier Talk a bit with HJAD, much better than it used to be. Watervally also should be right next to Dragon and Fairy, I'd rank them all as equal right now and just fine at filling whatever resistances you needed. I'd drop Gourgeist-XL from B though, having something with so little reason to ever touch it right next to the far better fat grass Lurantis just looks really bad.

Oh and let's unrank Gumshoos now that Stoutland is back thanks.

 

[jklioe]

I fundamentally disagree with the prospect of dropping Skuntank as while the metagame can adapt to it, Skuntank can also adapt back in ways that any other A+ rank Pokemon could ever dream. Its utility is insane and always have shaped portions of the meta (tspikes aborbing, defogging, trapping, mesprit/sensu check, aftermath utility, etc. have and will always be valuable no matter what), and much of its counter play and disadvantageous match ups are often overcome by simply adjusting its set; common Spikers, mons like Aggron/Weezing/Omastar coming in, etc., all are capable of being exploited by special sets, it can blanket lure/pressure Fighting-types/Kanga/Physical attackers with Rocky Helmet, CB offsets its middling power by actually breaking and forcing damage on phys def mons to not be overly pressured, Assault Vest is amazing at checking special attackers, the list goes on. That combination of utility, ability to adapt, and variable role compression is what always set it apart from the rest of the crowd, and nothing has changed here.

As for A+, I think Aggron/Sensu/Gurdurr/Qwilfish/Froslass make up the slot as the top 5 in the rank, with regi/lilli/lycanroc/oma (s/o to HJAD for recently taking an interest in def oma and agreeing with me that it's a strong af set)/aurorus/kanga (potentially) being right below them but still sharing the rank. Oh yeah and I support Stoutland A.

As for Aggron/Sensu's S rank, there's potential but unsure. Aggron I feel suffers from Aurorus syndrome, where a lot of how we go about adapting to it involves exploiting its Speed tier or typing in some way to maintain offensive pressure (things like Lanturn/Hitmonchan/Omastar/Golurk have room to creep it, stuff like Regirock, Kanga, Mesprit, Alolan Sandslash can run coverage to deal with it, etc.). It has very few switch ins much like Aurorus, but they're still existent and somewhat prevalent in Gurdurr, Regirock, Poliwrath, even opposing Aggron to name a few. Sensu with its premier set have defined portions of the meta especially with Taunt greatly affecting how it is addressed, but it's prone to being a momentum loss with Rocks on its side of the field and has some 4MSS issues. It's either running Taunt and risking letting certain checks in for free throughout the match (esp toge and aggron), or running Rev Dance and thus making it more prone to defensive counterplay from Toxic users and inhibiting its ability to break down bulky Pokemon and stall due to not running Taunt. I'll think about this more, but for these reasons I feel they have considerably more flaws than Mesprit and Skuntank overall.

 

[MZ]

Well it's been a month and 2 bans, but we're back to to change the VR! You can see how individual members voted (except Teddeh who was busy) here, just don't forget to click the link on the page to actually get to the graphs. Also Sandslash and Silvally-Poison aren't on there (weren't discussed until after Sandslash dropped, after I sent out the vote) and there are a couple of slight errors, like on Spiritomb.

Rises

Qwilfish A to A+
Kangaskhan A to A+
Froslass A to A+
Lilligant A to A+
Lycanroc A to A+
Stoutland A- to A
Scyther A- to A
Dugtrio-Alola B+ to A-
Mudsdale B+ to A-
Crabominable B to B+
Kabutops B to B+
Golurk B to B+
Tangela B- to B
Ludicolo B- to B
Rotom-F C+ to B
Victreebel C+ to B-
Sandslash Unranked to C
Simisear Unranked to D
Silvally Poison Unranked to D

The meta has become centralized around a particular group of threats, and we felt a large A+ rank was the best way to represent that. It's hard to deny that any of the rising Pokemon aren't hugely influential and threatening at the moment. Ground types are also on the rise, with Alolan Dugtrio, Mudsdale, and Golurk all getting much better recently. Mudsdale I think people know about but the other two tend to be really underrated as powerful threats with neat set variations and solid customization. Rotom-F gets the biggest bump of the update, but we also got 3 new additions to the rankings who deserve a mention. Sandslash is back, it wasn't good and doesn't seem to be especially good now, but Assault Vest is still a remover in a meta that could really use more of those so for now it's starting in C. Simisear is by no means great, but it is a notable Pyroar replacement and gives Ninetales some competition by not needing to set up to hit harder than a wet paper bag. Silvally Poison is probably a surprise since it didn't come up in the thread, but it's found its way onto quite a few stall builds recently as a fat defogger that can absorb Toxic Spikes and has a bit more utility than Skuntank thanks to Parting Shot. Like Simisear it's incredibly niche, but we felt it stood out enough with its consistent use on stall to warrant a rank. Shiinotic fans, I await your hatemail.

Drops

Spiritomb A+ to A
Clefairy A+ to A
Carracosta A to A-
Eelektross A to A-
Poliwrath A- to B+
Probopass B to B-
Musharna B to B-
Gourgeist-XL B to B-
Misdreavus B- to C+
Smeargle C+ to C
Crustle C+ to C-
Vigoroth C- to D
Gorebyss B- to Unranked
Gumshoos C- to Unranked

Spiritomb, Clefairy, Eelektross, Probopass and Musharna got a fair amount of discussion as just not living up to past meta potential, so I suppose that's one theme here. The other is being outclassed by new drops, as Carracosta has taken a large loss as only the second best Water/Rock type smasher, Misdreavus is no longer that one Ghost that can annoy Skuntank with Wisp and Dbond, Crustle faces heavy competition from Omastar as a lead with both Stealth Rock and Spikes, Vigoroth keeps being a worse Type: Null, Gumshoos was only ranked because we lost Stoutland for a hot second, and Gorebyss is really just bad Omastar. There's also Poliwrath, who's still really good because Aggron and Lycanroc are things, but without the 2 major things it checked it's harder to ignore just how weak it is.

Rejected

Skuntank S to A+
Aurorus A+ to S
Aggron A+ to S
Omastar A to A+
Hitmonchan A- to A
Abomasnow B to B+
Sableye B+ to B
Silvally-Water B- to B
Pinsir B+ to B
Mr. Mime C to B-
Shuckle C to C-/D
Heatmor Unranked to D

As for S rank, the council is in wait and see mode. There hasn't been an awful lot of PU since the Pyroar ban and moves to drop Skuntank or raise Aggron or Aurorus just feel premature and may not seem like good ideas a week or two from now. In particular, Skuntank is still really good and people seem to devalue just how solid special, scarf, AV, helmet, and band are in favor of hating on your basic physical defog utility. Most of the rest aren't too controversial, although the rest of council wasn't as sold on Silvally-Water's utility in a post-Pyroar and Kingler metagame. If you want something more in-depth about why the other nominations failed, or why above nominations went through, feel free to ask on discord, in the SQSA thread, or in my PMs. If I messed up moving around a Pokemon from the update though, please just tell me in PMs.

I'm going to start doing discussion points again, people didn't really respond to them a lot which is why they stopped the first time but maybe these will go over better. They're pretty much just things I or someone else on the council would like to see more opinions on. The same questions about S rank still hold. Also, Mudsdale A- to A, Zangoose B+ to B, Drampa B+ to B, and Crustle C- to Unranked.

 

[jklioe]

B+ to B - Sure. Offensive sets lack the aspect of what makes Stoutland and Kangaskhan so good to begin with, which is by functioning as threats with similar levels of wallbreaking potential but without the need to dedicate themselves to predicting the Ghost-type switch in, a key point given the increased use of them thanks to their spinblocking utility in a hazard-based meta. Belly Drum sets can still be threatening but suffer from that same issue of Ghost-type prevalence and often require a lot more support than the other two Normals. It's hard to justify using Zangoose outside of specialized playstyles and support that enhance its play (Webs, Memento, Scrreens, etc.).

B+ to B - Disagree, sort of. I feel Drampa's in a decent spot rn thanks to Clef's decline, ability to function as a fairly dependable check to Lilligant, a breaker that takes advantage of some mainstream defensive Pokemon like Mesprit / Qwilfish / Mudsdale, and overall a mon whose defensive checks are operating less actively in the metagame than checks to Aurorus (stuff like av crab / spd slash / lanturn are way worse vs this than aurorus) or even Aggron on teams lately. It's also one of the few Choiced attackers that can completely fuck over stall, with little more support required aside from hazards. Pretty slept on, I'd say.

C- to Unranked - Yeah, Omastar just does the multi-hazard stack thing better than this and everything else thanks to its much greater immediate presence, better overall defog match up, and better match up against common leads barring maybe Mesprit. Shell Smash sets... yeah, same deal (at least with Gorebyss it and Omastar shares similar threat level and not being weak to Mach Punch can be occasionally useful, so if this is getting the UR Crustle can too).

A- to A - I feel that its lack of recovery kind of makes its blanket physical attack checking job a little harder than what it could be otherwise, but it checks a lot of relevant top threats and takes advantage of the most common scarfer in the tier (Togedemaru), as well as the second most splashable rocker in the tier (Regirock). Otherwise, in terms of EVs, moves, and items, Mudsdale is variable with what it can offer for teams, to the extent that it can even function as lures in match ups like Aurorus or Omastar with berries. Overall this gives it great functionality and is gradually allow it to act as a staple in the PU metagame. So, yeah, works for me.

On other things, Alolan Sandslash and Oricorio-Pom Pom could stand to move up a subrank from their current ranks due to what they contribute for role compression and threat level. AloSlash is obviously a big part of what makes Hail Offense a strong playstyle, and the Specially defensive set has gotten more traction thanks to its solid hazard-based utility and great function as a check to special attackers like Aurorus, Oricorio-G, and Mesprit. Pom has similar offensive presence and defensive utility to Oricorio-G that trades the ability to spinblock and do slightly better vs certain defensive Pokemon and Lilligant (and by that, Z-Hyper Beam being a factor) for a better Scyther and Oricorio-G match up.

Also let's stop the Sableye hate :[ it's much better than it's often given credit for.

 

[New Light]

Just gonna quickly nom Gorebyss for D. I know, it's generally a worse SSer than Omastar but it sets itself apart by having Psychic to bust through Poli and by not being weak to Mach Punch/ Vacuum Wave.