Only the Pokemon currently in S and A+ are being discussed :]
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
I think Lando-T should be considered for S. It has so many viable sets right now. Obviously the scarf set is legendary, so is the defensive SR one, but theres also bulky attacker with earth plate or even rock polish. It has a great ability and really good typing. For me in ORAS its almost essential to have on a team, and no matter what set it holds so many teams together. Bar Gren and M-Mence I don't think theres a better Poke in the tier right now (maybe Thundy) so unless S rank is going to be just them Lando-T should be there.
I nominate everything but Mega Salamence to drop a rank. If we're really doing this list to reflect the current Salamencite metagame... well... yeah, no fucking joke, the thing has no real counters or checks in S or A+, it's so ridiculously good it makes teams better by it's own existence, it makes just about everything less viable with it's presence and there's literally no point in using any other Mega right now so there goes every other mega's viability. Apart from Aero I think.
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Just another little argument regarding Mega Metagross: it can be checked, sure, but there's no surefire way of countering Mega Metagross and lots of S-Rankers have their own set of checks and counters: Mega Charizard X without Earthquake are usually walled by Heatran and Azumarill can often weaken it to dangerous points while resisting both of Zard X's STABs. Latios is kind of stopped by a few Fairy-types, but has a series of hardchecks depending on which coverage move it runs. Greninja, well...that thing only needs to be outsped to beat it, but it does have the smallest amount of checks/counters among S-Rankers. Keldeo is stopped cold by Azumarill and some variants of Mega Venusaur.
S-Rank hasn't been the rank of unbeatable Pokémon for quite some time and that still holds true. That is, again, why Mega Salamence should get its own rank for the time being. S-Rankers, as I see them, are simply the best Pokémon in the meta and staples on most teams. It's not like they're always banworthy or broken.
S-Rank hasn't been the rank of unbeatable Pokémon for quite some time and that still holds true. That is, again, why Mega Salamence should get its own rank for the time being. S-Rankers, as I see them, are simply the best Pokémon in the meta and staples on most teams. It's not like they're always banworthy or broken.
Dread Arceus
total cockhead
lol at Pinsir in B. Yes, Salamence is the big scary bully on the playground, but Mega Pinsir is still a dangerous sweeper in its own right. If it has to sink, B+ should be the bottom, not B-...unless you, for some reason, honestly believe it's as bad a mon as Klefki and Sylveon and a worse mon than Quagsire and Zapdos.
I'd be a little careful with that argument if I were you. 'mons such as Hydreigon, Dragonite and Kyurem-Black are diverse enough to the point where they lack a surefire counter. While the aspect of checks/counters is critical when discussing viability, these arguments are usually not strong enough to be a 'stand alone' argument.
The current S-rank 'mons are placed there not only because they are difficult to consistently counter but also because of their valuable assets that they bring to the team. Whether you think Mega Metagross has these traits is up to you.
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Here's a quick list of some changes I'd like to see for S and A+ ranked pokemon
The links to the original posts with explanations are in bold
- Keldeo
S Rank --> A+ Rank - Thundurus-Incarnate
A+ Rank --> S Rank - Landorus-Therian
A+ Rank --> S Rank - Azumarill
A+ Rank --> A Rank
People that argue that Metagross doesn't deserve S rank aren't trying to say it sucks, it just doesn't reach S standards. It really isn't levels of self sufficient like Greninja, Salamence or Charizard X. Metagross's performance is quite limited without proper team support. It does many things well, far above average in fact, but it isn't the best in any certain regard. It's very easy to check with Intimidate pokemon (Landorus-T, Salamence, Manectric, Gyarados), and quite capably revenged by common pokemon like Greninja, Scarf Lando-T, Scarf Garchomp and Bisharp. Metagross may be able to tank a hit and come out on top but without the right support that's all it can manage since it can't boost reliably or recover health or from crippling status. It screams A+ because its list of positives is LONG, but it has enough relative cons that hold it back from S rank status. Here is my interpretation.
Pros:
- Great stat spread offensive and defensively
- Good bulk and situationally useful ability before megavolving
- Great speed tier
- Good offensive ability
- Diverse offensive movepool
- Stealth Rock resistance
- Brave Bird resistance
Cons:
- Relatively poor boosting moves
- Poor offensive STAB coverage
- 4MSS
- No recovery
- Burn/Paralysis susceptible
- Pursuit/Sucker Punch weak
- Good resistances (Fairy, Dragon, Flying) compensated for with common coverage (Ground, Fire)
Pros:
- Great stat spread offensive and defensively
- Good bulk and situationally useful ability before megavolving
- Great speed tier
- Good offensive ability
- Diverse offensive movepool
- Stealth Rock resistance
- Brave Bird resistance
Cons:
- Relatively poor boosting moves
- Poor offensive STAB coverage
- 4MSS
- No recovery
- Burn/Paralysis susceptible
- Pursuit/Sucker Punch weak
- Good resistances (Fairy, Dragon, Flying) compensated for with common coverage (Ground, Fire)
Megagross is one of the best megas that have been released in ORAS, I must agree. There aren't a lot of Pokemon in the game that want to switch in on its Tough Claws-boosted attacks, and it even speed ties with the Latis, and beats the variants that run HP Fire.
However, this mon has some serious 4MSS. He wish he could run Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Bullet Punch, all the elemental punches, and Earthquake all in the same set, but he can't. It's essentially REQUIRED that you run Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt (two moves that are capable of missing, mind you) to be able to have immediate power with your STABs. If you run Bullet Punch, you sacrifice much needed coverage, despite the benefits of having a priority move. The Hone Claws sets are even worse with this, since you're only allowed one coverage move if you're running MM and Zen Headbutt. Unless you're running Grass Knot or Thunderpunch, bulky waters like Suicune and Slowbro will be a bane to Megagross. If you're not running Ice Punch, you lose a guaranteed OHKO move against Mega Mence. No EQ means you lose to Heatran.
He also wishes that he has some form of recovery, and due to the fact that he doesn't, he's somewhat easy to be worn down by constant Spikes and Stealth Rock damage. Not to mention that SD would be beautiful on Megagross, which could make him one of the fastest and strongest wallbreakers in OU.
Now, despite these negatives, Megagross is a beast. Despite the fact that his STAB coverage isn't the best, they hit tremendously hard verses anything weak or neutral to it. Not too many Rotoms want to switch in to a Zen Headbutt from this thing, especially if it's been weakened previously. His Agility set is difficult to take down without priority, and even then, Megagross has really good bulk to shrug off priority moves not named Bisharp's Sucker Punch. Being able to speed tie against Mega Diancie, Mega Gallade, the Lati twins and all the other base 110s (also outspeeding Keldeo!) is crucial for his performance.
Given the right support, this thing shreks teams, but I feel as if Megagross has too much against it to be S, which is why A+ is good for it.
People need to remember something. Saying a Pokemon shouldn't be S doesn't mean it sucks. A+ is still essentially top tier in any given tier.
However, this mon has some serious 4MSS. He wish he could run Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Bullet Punch, all the elemental punches, and Earthquake all in the same set, but he can't. It's essentially REQUIRED that you run Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt (two moves that are capable of missing, mind you) to be able to have immediate power with your STABs. If you run Bullet Punch, you sacrifice much needed coverage, despite the benefits of having a priority move. The Hone Claws sets are even worse with this, since you're only allowed one coverage move if you're running MM and Zen Headbutt. Unless you're running Grass Knot or Thunderpunch, bulky waters like Suicune and Slowbro will be a bane to Megagross. If you're not running Ice Punch, you lose a guaranteed OHKO move against Mega Mence. No EQ means you lose to Heatran.
He also wishes that he has some form of recovery, and due to the fact that he doesn't, he's somewhat easy to be worn down by constant Spikes and Stealth Rock damage. Not to mention that SD would be beautiful on Megagross, which could make him one of the fastest and strongest wallbreakers in OU.
Now, despite these negatives, Megagross is a beast. Despite the fact that his STAB coverage isn't the best, they hit tremendously hard verses anything weak or neutral to it. Not too many Rotoms want to switch in to a Zen Headbutt from this thing, especially if it's been weakened previously. His Agility set is difficult to take down without priority, and even then, Megagross has really good bulk to shrug off priority moves not named Bisharp's Sucker Punch. Being able to speed tie against Mega Diancie, Mega Gallade, the Lati twins and all the other base 110s (also outspeeding Keldeo!) is crucial for his performance.
Given the right support, this thing shreks teams, but I feel as if Megagross has too much against it to be S, which is why A+ is good for it.
People need to remember something. Saying a Pokemon shouldn't be S doesn't mean it sucks. A+ is still essentially top tier in any given tier.
Jolteon Unranked ====> C+/B-/B
Honestly this pokemon got pretty big buff in ORAS. Now it's able to outspeed almost every big threat, except M- Lopunny, M- Alakazam, M- Aerodactyl, M- Manectric and M- Sceptile. Most of the time it's even better sweeper than Mega Manectric. Here's some calcs to prove it:
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 296-352 (89.4 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 333-395 (100.6 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 312-368 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 354-416 (98.8 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 270-318 (90.9 - 107%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 304-359 (102.3 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 362-428 (91.8 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 408-484 (103.5 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 192 SpD Gliscor: 272-324 (77.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 192 SpD Gliscor: 307-364 (87.2 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Also M- Manectric can take some serious damage in turn 1 (before getting it's speed boosted) :
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 196-231 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bad things about Jolteon:
-Really frail
-Limited moveset
-His abilities are very situational
PS:It is also somehow versatile with Sub-Wish set.
Guys, I really hate to mini-mod again, but read the title. We're only dicussing the 'mon in S and A+ right now.
I'm leaning more towards M-Gross being in S rank and I don't mind some counter arguments to keep it in A+ but some of these cons are kind of exaggerated. M-Gross has a fantastic Agility set that cleans up beautifully late game and the nature of the set provides it enough bulk to sweep through even multiple priority users such as Bisharp and Tflame with ease when set up. If something has one solid boosting move that should be what's taken into account, not something subpar anyways. STAB Coverage is only an issue if there is an over dependency on it and with its optional coverage moves of Hammer Arm, Earthquake, Ice Punch, Thunderpunch, and so forth this is really not the case. In reality barring a few steel types and extremely bulky psychics like Cresselia, Metagross is unwallable and the 4MSS is really something you don't want to be scouting for when faced against M-Gross. 4MSS is a good argument in some cases but the various options M-Gross has makes it much more threatening and allows itself to fit on many playstyles in both offensive and defensive archetypes. Keldeo doesn't have recovery, Thundurus doesn't have recovery, Greninja doesn't have recovery, so that argument only holds so much weight if recovery isn't entirely a necessity for an offensive behemoth anyways. Burn susceptible yes but it threatens just about every burn inducer in some way or another. Rotom-W is 2HKO through Zen Headbutt, Heatran loses to Hammer Arm/EQ, Talonflame has such mediocre bulk that in order to even burn it you would need to run enough speed to not get demolished by Zen Headbutt. Many S rank threats are susceptible to paralysis this criteria shouldn't be established as some sort of standard. The difference here in Metagross' case is that he has STAB + Tough Claw boosted priority with Bullet Punch to mitigate this issue anyways so worse come to worse you have this to use. Once again M-Gross is still able to threaten these Pursuit and Sucker Punch users through its bulk, power, and coverage against them and if you really want to try and play the pursuit game at the risk of potentially being KO'd good luck with that. Keldeo and offensive water types is a common partner to M-Gross to begin with so handling these offensive and defensive Fire and Ground types is only a thorn on its side and is fixed by literally slapping a viable mon to handle this, M-Gross does the rest. The resistance factor is huge because this is what makes M-Gross a threat in the first place. It provides fantastic defensive synergy with common cores and builds such as Steel, Dragon, Fairy cores and the compensation between its positive and negative resistances is very minimal when you take into account the ease of building around it and handling its minor issues.
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Points taken, thanks for addressing them. Mega Metagross is definitely a more versatile Pokémon than, say, Keldeo or Greninja (though Greninja can adapt its moveset to become more threatening). It can run speedy all-out sets, run Sub to evade status or use Agility with bulk investment. Sure, Mega Metagross may have 4MSS, but most of the time it'll only need STABs and Ice Punch in conjunction with a coverage move like Hammer Arm, Earthquake or Grass Knot. Heck, even priority Bullet Punch works for sniping weakened Pokémon. Its typing may give it common weaknesses, but honestly, there's a ton of useful resistances it has, too, including a double for Psychic, which is a really common typing. Mega Metagross can also come in on the Eons pretty well and maul them with Ice Punch or Meteor Mash.
So yeah, I do believe Mega Metagross has what it takes to be S-Rank.
All points duly noted. But it doesn't constitute S because all of these positives aren't exhibited at once. If you run an Agility set, a great set, you will lack coverage and find it not so hard to be revenged and/or walled. Run STABs and Hammer Arm then you're walled by Mega Slowbro. Run Grass Knot and you're walled by Heatran. Don't run Thunder Punch and you can't get past Skarmory. Other S rank mon don't have this issue. Greninja is walled by nothing. Salamence can overpower everything. Char X is walled by far less from just its two STABs. If you run a simple Jolly 4 Attacks set, then this is where you are more likely to be revenged. Recovery is a point for Metagross because people are touting its bulk, but it is far from being unable to OHKO, and Salamence and CharX do the bulky sweeper better with both having recovery and better boosting moves.
Metagross is a GREAT pokemon. A+ is no small honor. But it isn't the same as other S ranked threats. I don't think it is Salamence, Greninja, Thundurus or Char X universally amazing and useful like they are. All of these S threats to me have a level of autonomy that they are reliant on next to zero team support outside standard hazard removal, and have virtually no downsides or opportunity cost. That's the big difference between S and A to me and I just don't think Metagross meets that criteria.
Honestly, if we're talking about the meta as it stands right now, I can't see Megagross in S rank personally. An excellent Pokemon no doubt. You can run it several ways, and it's fast, bulky, and powerful, a rare combination. The thing is, the Pokemon that are currently residing in S rank, like Greninja, are so good that they dominate the meta. If we're using Greninja as an example, it's a fast hard hitter that has next to no switch ins. Thundurus-I is another Pokemon that resides in S rank, and it's on the same boat as Greninja. Right now everyone is using Mega Sweepers and Talonflame to stop those sweepers, and Thundurus thrives in this environment perfectly. What I'm trying to say is that the Pokemon in S right now are as OP as OP gets, and Megagross isn't on this boat because on every competent team I make I'll have measures of dealing with it without really trying. So yeah, I can see Megagross moving up in the future if some S ranks are kicked out, but not right now.
Well, the same logic can be used for greninja...and he is S rank. Sure, amazing speed tier that metagross doesn't have, but the later has a way to increase his speed and has disgustingly good bulk. Seriously, Metagross survives an earthquake from excadrill(full health of course, but still...).
I'm not arguing against or in favor of S or A+ rank, but i'm just pointing this out.
Greninja is S rank (and arguably broken) due to its insane movepool and coverage in tandem with its speed tier. Metagross is part of the now-crowded 110 tier, and, in spite of its ability to boost with Agility, it simply lacks the sheer coverage that Greninja has, and therefore simply isn't at the level of the current S-rank threats.
Mew just isn't as good as she used to be with these new Megas running around, and I feel as if she shoudl be dropped from A+ :c
Mew's famous stallbreaker set is completely countered by both Mega Diancie and Mega Sableye thanks to Magic Bounce blocking Taunt and and Will-o-Wisp (even though Synchronize is a thing...). Also, if SubRoost Calm Mind Stored Power Mega Latias runs enough speed EVs to outpace Mew, then she can avoid a WoW by going for Sub, and Mew's Knock Off won't break the sub when you run enough bulk.
Mew's famous stallbreaker set is completely countered by both Mega Diancie and Mega Sableye thanks to Magic Bounce blocking Taunt and and Will-o-Wisp (even though Synchronize is a thing...). Also, if SubRoost Calm Mind Stored Power Mega Latias runs enough speed EVs to outpace Mew, then she can avoid a WoW by going for Sub, and Mew's Knock Off won't break the sub when you run enough bulk.
Rises:
| A+ → S |
Some others have pointed this out, and I agree with them; Mega Gallade needs to rise to S. Simply put, it is one of the most dangerous sweepers in the metagame, with sky-high Attack, good Speed, great natural bulk, and access to boosting moves such as Swords Dance and Agility. It has the ability to tear apart both offensive and defensive teams, and only has a couple of reliable switch-ins, where the most viable ones are Mega Sableye and Unaware Clefable. However, outside of these, there is not much stopping Mega Gallade, due to its amazing stats. Even the sturdiest physical walls struggle to take it on, as they simply can't handle the raw power Gallade has. After a Swords Dance, even Skarmory has a chance of being OHKOd after damage from Stealth Rock. Checking Gallade offensively is also very hard, as its bulk allows it to take even the harder hits. All in all, it is a low risk, high reward kind of Pokemon, and in my opinion, it is deserving of being in the S rank.
| A+ → S |
Mega Metagross is one of the best Mega Evolutions, if not the best (bar Mega Salamence). Its stats are completely ridiculous; 145 / 105 / 110 on the offense, which allows it to outspeed the likes of Keldeo, Terrakion, Garchomp, and Mega Charizard, and tying with other Base 110s, while hitting incredibly hard with STAB Meteor Dash coming off of a Base 145 Attack, further boosted by Tough Claws. Its bulk is also amazing, with 80 / 150 / 110 defensive stats. This allows in to come in on Mega Gardevoir, Azumarill, and Lati@s, which is quite the feat. Mega Metagross's movepool is also great, having a great selection of coverage moves, such as Ice Punch, Earthquake, Thunder Punch, Pursuit, Grass Knot, and Hidden Power, access to priority, in form of Bullet Punch, and access to utility and boosting moves, such as Agility, Hone Claws, Stealth Rock, and Magnet Rise. All in all, this is another low risk, high reward Pokemon, and it's gonna be a metagame defining threat.
| A+ → S |
With all the Mega Salamences, Mega Beedrills, Mega Metagrosses, Mega Gallades and Greninjas running rampant, having priority Thunder Wave is more valuable than every. As the metagame shitfed its focus away from Thundurus in late XY, having Thunderbolt + Hidden Power Ice is generally enough it act as a great wallbreaker. The introduction of Mega Sceptile is a problem for Thundurus though, as it can't freely spam Electric-type attacks, but as it is pretty uncommon, I don't think it's enough to prevent Thundurus from rising. Sand Offense is another thing Thundurus doesn't like, but at the moment, with Mega Salamence rampaging through the entire metagame, I think Thundurus is one of the most important Pokemon on offensive teams. Thus, I think it should rise.
| A+ → S |
This change is something I think should've happened at the end of XY, and I still think it should happen. Both the Scarf and the Defensive set is really good right now; the former is great for revenge-killing a lot of top tier threats such as Greninja and Mega Metagross, and the latter being amazing for checking non-Ice Punch Mega Gallade, Mega Salamence, Excadrill, non-ce Punch Mega Metagross, Mega Beedrill, Mega Lopunny, and the list goes on. While you might say it doesn't check Salamence, you have to look away from the standard SR + EQ + SE + U-turn set. Toxic sets Salamence on a timer, while Rock Tomb is a cool option for ensuring Salamence doesn't get any Speed boosts. Landorus-T is really good, mabye even to the point where I'd say it's better than it has ever been.
Drops:
| A+ → A- |
With the introduction of Mega Salamence, Pinsir is pretty much outclassed in every way, as Salamence is stronger, faster, much bulkier, has better typing, better movepool, and access to a surperior boosting move. There is not really much to say here, as Mega Pinsir just isn't as good as it used to be. The fact that Rotom-W and defensive Landorus-T have gained a lot of popularity doesn't help Pinsir's case, either. I saw Albacore suggesting it to drop all the way down to B, but I honestly think that is too drastical. Even though it is completely outclassed, it's still a good Pokemon, just not as good as it used to be.
| A+ → A |
Latias is another case of being outclassed; with Mega Latias being introduced, Latias is outclassed as a tank, and with all the Magic Bounce users around, creating hazard control, Defog isn't as useful as it was in the XY metagame. ORAS is also a case where raw power is preferred over bulk, and Latios is the one being the surperior option here. In my opinion, Lati@s's best set is the Choice Scarf set, which Latios does ever so much better than Latias. Don't get me wrong, Latias is still a great counter to Keldeo, Landorus and, Mega Charizard Y, but Mega Latias and Latios does most of its jobs better in one way or another, which is why I think Latias should drop to A.
Some others have pointed this out, and I agree with them; Mega Gallade needs to rise to S. Simply put, it is one of the most dangerous sweepers in the metagame, with sky-high Attack, good Speed, great natural bulk, and access to boosting moves such as Swords Dance and Agility. It has the ability to tear apart both offensive and defensive teams, and only has a couple of reliable switch-ins, where the most viable ones are Mega Sableye and Unaware Clefable. However, outside of these, there is not much stopping Mega Gallade, due to its amazing stats. Even the sturdiest physical walls struggle to take it on, as they simply can't handle the raw power Gallade has. After a Swords Dance, even Skarmory has a chance of being OHKOd after damage from Stealth Rock. Checking Gallade offensively is also very hard, as its bulk allows it to take even the harder hits. All in all, it is a low risk, high reward kind of Pokemon, and in my opinion, it is deserving of being in the S rank.
Mega Metagross is one of the best Mega Evolutions, if not the best (bar Mega Salamence). Its stats are completely ridiculous; 145 / 105 / 110 on the offense, which allows it to outspeed the likes of Keldeo, Terrakion, Garchomp, and Mega Charizard, and tying with other Base 110s, while hitting incredibly hard with STAB Meteor Dash coming off of a Base 145 Attack, further boosted by Tough Claws. Its bulk is also amazing, with 80 / 150 / 110 defensive stats. This allows in to come in on Mega Gardevoir, Azumarill, and Lati@s, which is quite the feat. Mega Metagross's movepool is also great, having a great selection of coverage moves, such as Ice Punch, Earthquake, Thunder Punch, Pursuit, Grass Knot, and Hidden Power, access to priority, in form of Bullet Punch, and access to utility and boosting moves, such as Agility, Hone Claws, Stealth Rock, and Magnet Rise. All in all, this is another low risk, high reward Pokemon, and it's gonna be a metagame defining threat.
With all the Mega Salamences, Mega Beedrills, Mega Metagrosses, Mega Gallades and Greninjas running rampant, having priority Thunder Wave is more valuable than every. As the metagame shitfed its focus away from Thundurus in late XY, having Thunderbolt + Hidden Power Ice is generally enough it act as a great wallbreaker. The introduction of Mega Sceptile is a problem for Thundurus though, as it can't freely spam Electric-type attacks, but as it is pretty uncommon, I don't think it's enough to prevent Thundurus from rising. Sand Offense is another thing Thundurus doesn't like, but at the moment, with Mega Salamence rampaging through the entire metagame, I think Thundurus is one of the most important Pokemon on offensive teams. Thus, I think it should rise.
This change is something I think should've happened at the end of XY, and I still think it should happen. Both the Scarf and the Defensive set is really good right now; the former is great for revenge-killing a lot of top tier threats such as Greninja and Mega Metagross, and the latter being amazing for checking non-Ice Punch Mega Gallade, Mega Salamence, Excadrill, non-ce Punch Mega Metagross, Mega Beedrill, Mega Lopunny, and the list goes on. While you might say it doesn't check Salamence, you have to look away from the standard SR + EQ + SE + U-turn set. Toxic sets Salamence on a timer, while Rock Tomb is a cool option for ensuring Salamence doesn't get any Speed boosts. Landorus-T is really good, mabye even to the point where I'd say it's better than it has ever been.
Drops:
With the introduction of Mega Salamence, Pinsir is pretty much outclassed in every way, as Salamence is stronger, faster, much bulkier, has better typing, better movepool, and access to a surperior boosting move. There is not really much to say here, as Mega Pinsir just isn't as good as it used to be. The fact that Rotom-W and defensive Landorus-T have gained a lot of popularity doesn't help Pinsir's case, either. I saw Albacore suggesting it to drop all the way down to B, but I honestly think that is too drastical. Even though it is completely outclassed, it's still a good Pokemon, just not as good as it used to be.
Latias is another case of being outclassed; with Mega Latias being introduced, Latias is outclassed as a tank, and with all the Magic Bounce users around, creating hazard control, Defog isn't as useful as it was in the XY metagame. ORAS is also a case where raw power is preferred over bulk, and Latios is the one being the surperior option here. In my opinion, Lati@s's best set is the Choice Scarf set, which Latios does ever so much better than Latias. Don't get me wrong, Latias is still a great counter to Keldeo, Landorus and, Mega Charizard Y, but Mega Latias and Latios does most of its jobs better in one way or another, which is why I think Latias should drop to A.
I'm not proposing to move greninja down, i just used him as an example because he can't cover everything in one set. If he lacks extrasensory, megasaur checks/counter. If he lacks HP fire then ferrothorn can check him etc. Like Metagross, you can't cover everything ever
Here's the sprites we have for the new Megas so far (ripped from ones available in the demo). Saw that the first post didn't have them. (If a mod thinks this post is unnecessary here feel free to delete or whatever is needed.)
S Rank
Charizard (Mega-X)
Greninja
Keldeo
Latios
Salamence (Mega)
Changes because OR/AS:
Mega Charizard X should drop to A+. Even though it's a great pokemon that has a lot of positive traits, Salamence gives competitions as a Dragon Dancer. When Salamence is out of OU, MCharizard will be again the best Dragon Dancer and I think should return to S.
Greninja: Stay in S because Gunk Shot is even reducing the already very few checks to this pokemon.
Keldeo: 108 Speed Tier is slower in the OR/AS metagame than it's in OU and the presence of (specially) Salamence, Gallade, Metagross and Diancie. It should drop to A+ because it's not the best pokemon of the metagame.
(Standard) Latios: It should drop to A+ because the competence is really tough. About Mega Latios: there's so little diference (apart of a secondary DD set) that given the importance of the mega slot (only 1 per team) it's not worth it. Of course, Mega Latios is as good as Latios. This is why Mega latios is not A+.
Salamence: Honestly, it should go up to Star (or Salamence) Tier. It's so insanely powerful, it doesn't have counters and very few checks (and mainly unreliable). Comapring Salamence to the rest of the S tier is insane.
A+ Rank
Azumarill
Bisharp
Charizard (Mega-Y)
Clefable
Gallade (Mega)
Garchomp
Gardevoir (Mega)
Gengar
Heatran
Landorus-T
Landorus
Latias
Metagross (Mega)
Mew
Pinsir (Mega)
Scizor (Mega)
Talonflame
Thundurus
Venusaur (Mega)
Proposed changes:
Azumarill: Drop to A. The presence of new Megas like Metagross and Slowbro and the addition of Gunk Shot on greninja's moveset is not doing any favors. I recommend dropping a single tier.
Bisharp: I don't know well this case but given how everyone is seeing that Bisharp is very good in the OR/AS meta, it should stay in that A+ rank.
Charizard Y: 100 Speed is not that good. Mega Salamence is an almost counter to it. And even has to use a Mega Slot. It should drop to A- rank. If/when Salamence is banned I see thsi thing return to A rank.
Gallade: It's not fast enough (specially 1st turn), his main STAB is resisted by many things, has 3 weakness (two of them being common), doesn't have the bulk to have an easy set up (68/95/115 is not bulky, specially uninvested and without Leftovers)
Clefable: I don't know how to thing. I see dropping to A or even staying, depending of the placement of another Fairy types (Altaria and Diancie) and another things like Mega Sableye.
Garchomp: Drop to A. Salamence is a serious check, Metagross is another, another Megas (Altaria and Diancie) check it.
Mega Gardevoir: Drop to A. Comeptence for the Mega Slot. It's not strictly outclassed by anything but the competence is so huge right now that has to be reflect on his viability ins ome way.
Gengar: I don't know this case well. I see staying in A+ because it can check various Megas, but I see dropping to a ecause it's outspped (or speed tie, which is dangerous) for many Megas.
Heatran: Staying in this rank. for now. Maybe drop to A because EQ Salamence, Earth power Diancie and etc, but I see staying here.
Landorus-T ti's very good,very flexible ut I don't see (specially in OR/AS) getting the requirement of S rank.
Landorus: Stay in A+.
Latias: I see dropping to A and staying in A+ for various reasons. I think that both Latias and Mega Latias I see Mega latias in A+ with no problem) are equally viable. Mega Latias is clearly better than Latias but the competence is so huge that in many teams normal Latias is worth it over Mega latias
Meta Metagross: I will say stay in A+ but I see this pokemon going up to S rank. It has his few prolems, but this thing is insane and has very few checks, all of them depending of the moveset. I think it should be A+ (basically for the Mega Slot limitation).
Mew: Drop to A-. Saleye is a way better Stallbrekaer than in Mega form has immunity of many moves, thing that mew doesn't have. Also many new pokemon don't help him.
Mega Pinsir: Drtop to B (if Salamence is banned go up to A). Salamnece's comeptence is so huge that viability has been reducing a lot. Pinsir still ahs the niches of CC and Quick Attack being still viable.
Mega Scizor: Drop to A: The Mega Slot competence is huge that even though I see it equally viable, having to ahre the Mega Slot is huge.
Talonflame: I see dropping to A because it looks like having a hazard remover is tough in this meta. And OR/AS has beinging up new Mega who resist their STABs (metagroos, Diancie) or has high defense (Salamence). If Salamence gets banned, it should return to A+ rank.
Thundurus: Priprity RThunder Wave is as good asever and 111 base is specially tolling in this Metagame. It could see going tup to Sna dstaying in A+ although I'm decanting for the former (it's already one of the best A+Pokemon right now).
Venusaur: Drop to A-: Too much competition for the Mega Slot and many of the additions are Psychic nd flying types which don't help Mega Venusaur at all. IfSalamence gets banned, I see in A rank, but now drop two tiers.
About the other OR/AS Megas:
I see various things a bit rare:
I think Altaria should drop one rank because competitions.
Mega Latias and Mega Slowbro should be A+
Mega Sableye should be higher.
I see Mega Swampert being more viable than B+ (and I see Swampert 100% viable outside rain, although with rain is clearly better)
Mega Camerupt is too high to be B rank. mega Latios should be B+ at worst (it doens't have a handicap, unlike Mega Garchomp).
And Steelix and Audino should be unranked (it has no place in OU, specially when you can only have 1 Mega).
One note: the part of the post in italic means that it won't be ranked yet unless emergency. ut I still think some of the Megas should change positions.
Greninja
Keldeo
Latios
Changes because OR/AS:
Mega Charizard X should drop to A+. Even though it's a great pokemon that has a lot of positive traits, Salamence gives competitions as a Dragon Dancer. When Salamence is out of OU, MCharizard will be again the best Dragon Dancer and I think should return to S.
Greninja: Stay in S because Gunk Shot is even reducing the already very few checks to this pokemon.
Keldeo: 108 Speed Tier is slower in the OR/AS metagame than it's in OU and the presence of (specially) Salamence, Gallade, Metagross and Diancie. It should drop to A+ because it's not the best pokemon of the metagame.
(Standard) Latios: It should drop to A+ because the competence is really tough. About Mega Latios: there's so little diference (apart of a secondary DD set) that given the importance of the mega slot (only 1 per team) it's not worth it. Of course, Mega Latios is as good as Latios. This is why Mega latios is not A+.
Salamence: Honestly, it should go up to Star (or Salamence) Tier. It's so insanely powerful, it doesn't have counters and very few checks (and mainly unreliable). Comapring Salamence to the rest of the S tier is insane.
A+ Rank
Bisharp
Garchomp
Gardevoir (Mega)
Gengar
Mew
Scizor (Mega)
Thundurus
Proposed changes:
Azumarill: Drop to A. The presence of new Megas like Metagross and Slowbro and the addition of Gunk Shot on greninja's moveset is not doing any favors. I recommend dropping a single tier.
Bisharp: I don't know well this case but given how everyone is seeing that Bisharp is very good in the OR/AS meta, it should stay in that A+ rank.
Charizard Y: 100 Speed is not that good. Mega Salamence is an almost counter to it. And even has to use a Mega Slot. It should drop to A- rank. If/when Salamence is banned I see thsi thing return to A rank.
Gallade: It's not fast enough (specially 1st turn), his main STAB is resisted by many things, has 3 weakness (two of them being common), doesn't have the bulk to have an easy set up (68/95/115 is not bulky, specially uninvested and without Leftovers)
Clefable: I don't know how to thing. I see dropping to A or even staying, depending of the placement of another Fairy types (Altaria and Diancie) and another things like Mega Sableye.
Garchomp: Drop to A. Salamence is a serious check, Metagross is another, another Megas (Altaria and Diancie) check it.
Mega Gardevoir: Drop to A. Comeptence for the Mega Slot. It's not strictly outclassed by anything but the competence is so huge right now that has to be reflect on his viability ins ome way.
Gengar: I don't know this case well. I see staying in A+ because it can check various Megas, but I see dropping to a ecause it's outspped (or speed tie, which is dangerous) for many Megas.
Heatran: Staying in this rank. for now. Maybe drop to A because EQ Salamence, Earth power Diancie and etc, but I see staying here.
Landorus-T ti's very good,very flexible ut I don't see (specially in OR/AS) getting the requirement of S rank.
Landorus: Stay in A+.
Latias: I see dropping to A and staying in A+ for various reasons. I think that both Latias and Mega Latias I see Mega latias in A+ with no problem) are equally viable. Mega Latias is clearly better than Latias but the competence is so huge that in many teams normal Latias is worth it over Mega latias
Meta Metagross: I will say stay in A+ but I see this pokemon going up to S rank. It has his few prolems, but this thing is insane and has very few checks, all of them depending of the moveset. I think it should be A+ (basically for the Mega Slot limitation).
Mew: Drop to A-. Saleye is a way better Stallbrekaer than in Mega form has immunity of many moves, thing that mew doesn't have. Also many new pokemon don't help him.
Mega Pinsir: Drtop to B (if Salamence is banned go up to A). Salamnece's comeptence is so huge that viability has been reducing a lot. Pinsir still ahs the niches of CC and Quick Attack being still viable.
Mega Scizor: Drop to A: The Mega Slot competence is huge that even though I see it equally viable, having to ahre the Mega Slot is huge.
Talonflame: I see dropping to A because it looks like having a hazard remover is tough in this meta. And OR/AS has beinging up new Mega who resist their STABs (metagroos, Diancie) or has high defense (Salamence). If Salamence gets banned, it should return to A+ rank.
Thundurus: Priprity RThunder Wave is as good asever and 111 base is specially tolling in this Metagame. It could see going tup to Sna dstaying in A+ although I'm decanting for the former (it's already one of the best A+Pokemon right now).
Venusaur: Drop to A-: Too much competition for the Mega Slot and many of the additions are Psychic nd flying types which don't help Mega Venusaur at all. IfSalamence gets banned, I see in A rank, but now drop two tiers.
About the other OR/AS Megas:
I see various things a bit rare:
I think Altaria should drop one rank because competitions.
Mega Latias and Mega Slowbro should be A+
Mega Sableye should be higher.
I see Mega Swampert being more viable than B+ (and I see Swampert 100% viable outside rain, although with rain is clearly better)
Mega Camerupt is too high to be B rank. mega Latios should be B+ at worst (it doens't have a handicap, unlike Mega Garchomp).
And Steelix and Audino should be unranked (it has no place in OU, specially when you can only have 1 Mega).
One note: the part of the post in italic means that it won't be ranked yet unless emergency. ut I still think some of the Megas should change positions.
I don't think we should drop every old Mega one rank, which is something I picked up on reading through that post. Just because there's more competition for the Mega slot doesn't mean every old Mega should automatically drop a rank or two. Mega Scizor particularly stood out, yeah it has more competition for the Mega slot, but it also happens to check/counter 80% of the newer Megas in some form or another. Some other XY Megas also either stayed the same or got better in the new meta, Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Manectric have both gotten better in the shift for example. Mega Venu also holds point in the new meta imo. It did pick up some new threats and bulky Psychic types are more common now, but it also serves as an excellent answer to the new Fairy type Megas as well as Mega Sceptile, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Swampert all in one slot. I've seen some people saying it should drop to A and maybe it should, but A- seems a little bit much.S Rank
Charizard (Mega-X)
Salamence (Mega)
Changes because OR/AS:
Mega Charizard X should drop to A+. Even though it's a great pokemon that has a lot of positive traits, Salamence gives competitions as a Dragon Dancer. When Salamence is out of OU, MCharizard will be again the best Dragon Dancer and I think should return to S.
Greninja: Stay in S because Gunk Shot is even reducing the already very few checks to this pokemon.
Keldeo: 108 Speed Tier is slower in the OR/AS metagame than it's in OU and the presence of (specially) Salamence, Gallade, Metagross and Diancie. It should drop to A+ because it's not the best pokemon of the metagame.
(Standard) Latios: It should drop to A+ because the competence is really tough. About Mega Latios: there's so little diference (apart of a secondary DD set) that given the importance of the mega slot (only 1 per team) it's not worth it. Of course, Mega Latios is as good as Latios. This is why Mega latios is not A+.
Salamence: Honestly, it should go up to Star (or Salamence) Tier. It's so insanely powerful, it doesn't have counters and very few checks (and mainly unreliable). Comapring Salamence to the rest of the S tier is insane.
A+ Rank
Azumarill
Charizard (Mega-Y)
Clefable
Gallade (Mega)
Heatran
Landorus-T
Landorus
Latias
Metagross (Mega)
Pinsir (Mega)
Talonflame
Venusaur (Mega)
Proposed changes:
Azumarill: Drop to A. The presence of new Megas like Metagross and Slowbro and the addition of Gunk Shot on greninja's moveset is not doing any favors. I recommend dropping a single tier.
Bisharp: I don't know well this case but given how everyone is seeing that Bisharp is very good in the OR/AS meta, it should stay in that A+ rank.
Charizard Y: 100 Speed is not that good. Mega Salamence is an almost counter to it. And even has to use a Mega Slot. It should drop to A- rank. If/when Salamence is banned I see thsi thing return to A rank.
Gallade: It's not fast enough (specially 1st turn), his main STAB is resisted by many things, has 3 weakness (two of them being common), doesn't have the bulk to have an easy set up (68/95/115 is not bulky, specially uninvested and without Leftovers)
Clefable: I don't know how to thing. I see dropping to A or even staying, depending of the placement of another Fairy types (Altaria and Diancie) and another things like Mega Sableye.
Garchomp: Drop to A. Salamence is a serious check, Metagross is another, another Megas (Altaria and Diancie) check it.
Mega Gardevoir: Drop to A. Comeptence for the Mega Slot. It's not strictly outclassed by anything but the competence is so huge right now that has to be reflect on his viability ins ome way.
Gengar: I don't know this case well. I see staying in A+ because it can check various Megas, but I see dropping to a ecause it's outspped (or speed tie, which is dangerous) for many Megas.
Heatran: Staying in this rank. for now. Maybe drop to A because EQ Salamence, Earth power Diancie and etc, but I see staying here.
Landorus-T ti's very good,very flexible ut I don't see (specially in OR/AS) getting the requirement of S rank.
Landorus: Stay in A+.
Latias: I see dropping to A and staying in A+ for various reasons. I think that both Latias and Mega Latias I see Mega latias in A+ with no problem) are equally viable. Mega Latias is clearly better than Latias but the competence is so huge that in many teams normal Latias is worth it over Mega latias
Meta Metagross: I will say stay in A+ but I see this pokemon going up to S rank. It has his few prolems, but this thing is insane and has very few checks, all of them depending of the moveset. I think it should be A+ (basically for the Mega Slot limitation).
Mew: Drop to A-. Saleye is a way better Stallbrekaer than in Mega form has immunity of many moves, thing that mew doesn't have. Also many new pokemon don't help him.
Mega Pinsir: Drtop to B (if Salamence is banned go up to A). Salamnece's comeptence is so huge that viability has been reducing a lot. Pinsir still ahs the niches of CC and Quick Attack being still viable.
Mega Scizor: Drop to A: The Mega Slot competence is huge that even though I see it equally viable, having to ahre the Mega Slot is huge.
Talonflame: I see dropping to A because it looks like having a hazard remover is tough in this meta. And OR/AS has beinging up new Mega who resist their STABs (metagroos, Diancie) or has high defense (Salamence). If Salamence gets banned, it should return to A+ rank.
Thundurus: Priprity RThunder Wave is as good asever and 111 base is specially tolling in this Metagame. It could see going tup to Sna dstaying in A+ although I'm decanting for the former (it's already one of the best A+Pokemon right now).
Venusaur: Drop to A-: Too much competition for the Mega Slot and many of the additions are Psychic nd flying types which don't help Mega Venusaur at all. IfSalamence gets banned, I see in A rank, but now drop two tiers.
About the other OR/AS Megas:
I see various things a bit rare:
I think Altaria should drop one rank because competitions.
Mega Latias and Mega Slowbro should be A+
Mega Sableye should be higher.
I see Mega Swampert being more viable than B+ (and I see Swampert 100% viable outside rain, although with rain is clearly better)
Mega Camerupt is too high to be B rank. mega Latios should be B+ at worst (it doens't have a handicap, unlike Mega Garchomp).
And Steelix and Audino should be unranked (it has no place in OU, specially when you can only have 1 Mega).
One note: the part of the post in italic means that it won't be ranked yet unless emergency. ut I still think some of the Megas should change positions.
You are still thinking about Special Greninja. In ORAS, mixed Greninja with a set of Gunk Shot / Low Kick / Ice Beam / (U-turn?) is the best set, as it beats most of Greninja's previous checks. The special set is okay, but at the moment, the better set is Greninja's mixed set.
As far as viability goes, the Mega Evolutions who have viable pre evo forms oughta drop a rank because of the competition for the mega slot. Mons who only have viability in their mega forms should stay where they are at. Scizor and Gyarados are good examples of Mons whose viability is not affected solely because of the Mega slot. If their viability changes because of some other factor, like fairy type walls becoming less prominent, or speed tiers becoming more important, then feel free to propose a change in tier.
Tl;dr the mega slot should not be the only factor in changing viability.
Tl;dr the mega slot should not be the only factor in changing viability.
No, I'm not. I know of mixed greninja, i play the ORAS metagame on pokemonshowdown and I use him lol. If the last move from your example is not extrasensory, mega venusaur checks him. Greninja's checks are VERY limited, but they do exist and depends of your moves.
Megasaur is quite rare right now as it is destroyed by M-Mence, M-Gallade and M-Metagross (not to mention Mega Gardevoir) since all of them have stab super effective hits.
The ORAS meta is not kind to mega venusaur at all and that is why Mega Venusaur should drop to A-
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