Salamence is Uber.

[STEELDRAGON]

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
I think the metagame will now be all about grass/fire/water cores, and not so much of the dominant steel/dragon core.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?
I think it might become a little more popular, but not that much

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
grass, fighting, and bug types(specifically Shaymin, Celebi, Breloom, Machamp, and may be even Heracross) Also Kingdra, Flygon, and Dragonite are having a party since their big brother Salamence is gone.

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
I think it is fair, and I like how it occured in a refined process.


5.How does Salamence do in ubers?

I think it will be one of those pokemon who is in the tier, but it won't get used much, like Deoxys-D. It's mostly outclassed by Rayquaza, but it will have some use when paired with Rayquaza.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor, most defintly, Weavile, Magnezone, bascailly steel types and stuff that is used to kill dragons.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?

Shaymin, Uxie, and may even Gallade or Staraptor.

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

I think it should have been banned sooner, since this generation is nearing the end, Gennearation 5 starts September 2010, and March/April 2011 in the US.

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?

It araguably didnt have any hard counters, and was like a giant wrecking ball that overcentralized the metagame, however, i don't think it will see much use in ubers, with rayquaza around. I am very happy that it finally got banned because it was clearly the dominant force, and it was too strong for OU.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?

Most def. Heatran, that thing is a beast. Like Latias, I would be a bit bummed if it did get banned to Ubers.

 

[FearZeCrawdaunt]

As for the main qeustions

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?

Opens up the door for a Jolly Dragonite to fill his role as a dancer, but the role of a MixMence will be interesting to fill. # of OU pokemon will probably see a couple additions.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?

Is waiting around ever really dominant? Mence wasn't the only thing breaking stall, I don't see why it should see a huge increase in activity.

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?

A Jolly Dragonite will enjoy filling the roles Salamence used to occupy, and will still outspeed Heatran and other steel types that are looking to take advantage of Mence's disappearance. Overall, more ingenuity in choosing your mixed sweeper will surface, and that'll be interesting. Infernape will also enjoy the limelight, though Heatran still has to worry about a very powerful earthquake from a flying type.

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

Kudos to those that voted. I think it's a fair decision.

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?

How it did before in Ubers. Ubers isn't a new, scary world that Salamence is now banished to. It was already there, and it worked rather well.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?

Scizor for sure, other steel types used to absorb dragon attacks. But not to the extent that people seem to be giving it credit for. I figure the role will be filled with Dragonite or Flygon (though Flygon is a bit on the weaker side, but it's speed tie with Salamence, and respectable attack keep it around), and the same pokemon as before will still be required to check these threats.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?

Staraptor will definitely see some action. Where it used to Speedtie Salamence, but fail only due to worse defences, it now has a place as the fastest Intimidator in OU.

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

I only really started getting serious (and I'm still nowhere near as serious as everyone here most likely) recently, but from the overall Tier-wrecking qualities that Salamence presented, I don't see why it wasn't banned sooner.

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?

Salamence was definitely overpowered in the OU tier. And just because it might be underpowered in the Uber tier, and outclassed by Rayquaza, doesn't mean it should be allowed back into OU. If you were to accurately place Salamence, I'd almost say it's a second BL tier between Uber and OU, occupying similar space to Latias and Garchomp.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?

Heatran. Though I feel like people aren't giving Dragonite the credit it deserves. Just because Salamence is gone doesn't mean Dragonite can't deliver similar results. Granted, Dragonite is slower, but it still outspeeds pokemon like Heatran. Dragonite somewhat fears Gyarados, but the max speed difference between the two is only 287 vs. 284. The new metagame is balanced, and Heatran will still have to watch out for an earthquake coming from a base 134 attack Dragon/Flying.

 

[GMLW]

An obvious effect of Salamence's banning is Infernape. If people thought the banning of Latias would boost Infernape's usage, he will be running rampant without some of its biggest counters there. Salamence was probably one of the biggest reasons to run HP Ice on Nape (Flygon, Dragonite, and Gliscor don't pose as much of threat as Salamence), allowing Infernape to forego it for Nasty Plot/Vacuum Wave/Mach Punch/etc, Infernape has a movepool out the wazoo. Expect a rise in Starmie and Tentacruel.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

If we bump out Dragonite, I'm gonna get me some Altaria!

 

[c l e a r]

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Less Steel types, whoop de' shit. What is it with you guys with your Infernape fetish, seriously.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?
No, because Salamence is not the only reason why stall does not work.

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Flygon, although I have been using it over Salamence since the removal of Garchomp. I liked Flygon for the Lightning immunity and not dying to SR.

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
You guys did what you did before, no complaints. The problem is...

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Nothing, outclassed by Garchomp in every way. I don't even use 4x Ice weak Dragons in ubers anymore, it's just asking for trouble.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Like before, Steel types.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
No opinion there.

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
No.

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
No, because what people don't understand is that this is not chess. You can only set the balance bar so far, and you guys have crossed it a long time ago. A good game has to have a dominant force, or it will be very boring to play.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Nothing, you guys should stop being ban happy; but know how whiny some of you people are, so I say Heatran cause you want to use more Fire attacks without getting interupted.

Note that I do not use Salamence, and have faced plenty of people who do. I should be the last person to care if he gets banned or not.

BONUS VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GYjJ1FF5xg

 

[Kurai]

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?

One less Dragon-type, of course, but that's just the beginning. I've done a fair share of Suspect, and I've definitely seen more semi-stall, and a lot less usage of offensive teams. I don't think Steel-types will go that down, since it is a good type overall, but we'll be seeing +Grass-types, imo.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?

Stall, as in pure stall, still won't be as big of a force in the current Standard metagame. Semi-stall, as mentioned before, sure. But there are other wallbreakers (none of which function as well as Mence, imo, but that's a different story), and I don't think stall is doing so hot in this late-DPPtHGSS era.

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?

...I can't think of any, atm. I wouldn't say Dragonite, since it doesn't fill the slot. Flygon is usually deligated to some sort of Choiced role. Altaria is lol, and Kingdra is just underrated but still doesn't fit the bill. I'm hoping MixDra is the next "OU Dragon", but all I can do is hope.

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

It was cool? As long as I know intelligent people made the decision, I could care less about the process.

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?

It's a faster, weaker, less bulky Rayquaza. Oh, with Intimidate. I don't think it'll be one of the most-used Ubers, but it won't fall into oblivion like... Wynaut or Deoxys-D.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?

Any sort of Ice-type revenge killer, because now the only reason to use Ice-typed revenge killers is for Dragonite and Altaria. Meaning everything will run HP Grass over HP Ice, although that isn't really a Pokemon decrease. We'll lose Weavile usage (not like we had much), and maybe ScarfTran usage? I doubt the latter, since ScarfTran is good for other things, too. But again, HP Grass > HP Ice is ever so obvious.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?

Or from BL to OU. Err... I'm not really sure on that. I don't think we'll have any more tier changes until BW comes out, but I could be wrong.

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

Timing wise, not at all. BW is coming out in two or three months now, and the metagame is going to take a backflip. And as such, Salamence will be retested. Although these two months (and possibly more until the BW metagame developes) will be some sort of "good-bye Gen IV, don't you dare use Salamence" age.

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?

I have mixed opinions on this. I think it was because it centralized the metagame and made you run some Ice-type user or else you were fucked, but I think it wasn't because it's the prime example of how residual damage kills a Pokemon.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?

Again, I said there will probably be no major tier changes until BW. But... I say Luvdisc is a good candidate. Seriously, it can do some serious shit with Rain Dance + Surf.

 

[ToF]

I'm sick of most people in this thread making judgments about how the council made the incorrect choice yada yada yada. If you all wanted to apply for the council and actually make an impact in the tiering of Salamence you would have stopped being lazy asses, got on the standard and suspect ladders, and done something about it. If all you can do is talk and don't have the battling prowess or experience to back it up, you aren't qualified to make anything but passing judgments anyway because you're missing the most important credential in a vote like this, experience. Theorymonning will only get so far. So please, before any of you criticize the council and their reasoning for voting, you should criticize yourselves for either being lazy and not bothering to apply or solely theorymonning without any practical evidence.

The suspect ladder wasn't exactly difficult to climb either, so really there's no reason to complain. Team variety was high as well so no one team was dominant and won consistently either.

 

[Gairyuki789]

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?

Stall will become more popular, even if people are sugarcoating it by saying it won't.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?

Of course, people will find counters to Infernape, Tyranitar and the other remaining Stallbreakers and once thier gone Stall will reign.

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?

I don't know cause I don't play the synergy game.

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

Should've been done sooner if it was going to happen.

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?

Terrible.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?

Skilled Players will adapt and keep using what thier using no matter the change.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?

Dunno.

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

No, it should've been sooner.

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?

I don't see why it was sent to ubers, people can come up with these "perfect paper scenarios" all they want but in a battle anything can happen and is left up to chance and luck, skill is used as well but if you can't accept all three as battle aspects you don't deserve to battle.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?

Blissey.

 

[Human]

I'm sick of most people in this thread making judgments about how the council made the incorrect choice yada yada yada. If you all wanted to apply for the council and actually make an impact in the tiering of Salamence you would have stopped being lazy asses, got on the standard and suspect ladders, and done something about it. If all you can do is talk and don't have the battling prowess or experience to back it up, you aren't qualified to make anything but passing judgments anyway because you're missing the most important credential in a vote like this, experience. Theorymonning will only get so far. So please, before any of you criticize the council and their reasoning for voting, you should criticize yourselves for either being lazy and not bothering to apply or solely theorymonning without any practical evidence.

The suspect ladder wasn't exactly difficult to climb either, so really there's no reason to complain. Team variety was high as well so no one team was dominant and won consistently either.

The only complaint I have personally is how I personally would like to know what was happening there and what was being discussed. What goes to make the final decision. I did not mind much how the final decision went as I tried to make my team without Mence when I actually began playing because I would rather be prepared no matter how the vote went, although I am not that great in the first place.

 

[Man On The Moon]

I agree with human i would like to know what was discussed.maybe post what was written by the council without names of course to avoid the voters being hassled.

 

[Curtains]

I'm sick of most people in this thread making judgments about how the council made the incorrect choice yada yada yada. If you all wanted to apply for the council and actually make an impact in the tiering of Salamence you would have stopped being lazy asses, got on the standard and suspect ladders, and done something about it. If all you can do is talk and don't have the battling prowess or experience to back it up, you aren't qualified to make anything but passing judgments anyway because you're missing the most important credential in a vote like this, experience. Theorymonning will only get so far. So please, before any of you criticize the council and their reasoning for voting, you should criticize yourselves for either being lazy and not bothering to apply or solely theorymonning without any practical evidence.

The suspect ladder wasn't exactly difficult to climb either, so really there's no reason to complain. Team variety was high as well so no one team was dominant and won consistently either.

I don't understand your frustration. Whether or not Salamence went to ubers or not still does not take away from the fact that the process was flawed, but im not going to sway more into that. Also i'm not feeling the way that you basically bashed the majority of users here who do care about what happens and believe it or not *gasp* have some idea what the fuck there talking about in lue of how many battles they play on the very laggy server.We have the right to criticize because believe it or not we don't know why you guys made the decisions that you made. In my humble opinion the suspect ladder was stupid. Taking out a pokemon is not really testing it. The real "testing" went on on the standard ladder because we can actually see the sprite. I played about 4 battles on suspect ladder and all the teams were extreme stall teams. Stall + laggy smogon server = boring and annoying, im not doing it.


tl;dr : Playing on ladder and in random tournament does not make you anymore of a viable candidate for a "experienced battler" than people who just play non rated games for fun with friends shoddy or wifi (battle me thread) .

 

[Tayla]

Utterly ridiculous. Salamence is no more Uber than Heatran. --

I am not "lazy" for not applying to the council. Some people actually have other affairs they must deal with before becoming buried in battling on a Pokemon simulator. However, I played enough battles in both Suspect and Standard to know that Salamence is very powerful, and a good stall breaker, but it has weak points that are very easily taken advantage of. Suspect was a slow, utterly boring tier that, in my opinion, is not as involving as Standard was at that time.

But that's just me and my "lazy" opinion.

 

[Game Freak201]

After reading this thread, I've learned that Salamence apparently sucks in Ubers even though I've played that metagame often enough with a Wobbuffet-Salamence-Rayquaza core winning a good amount of battles. Know about the metagame before you make comments about it. Of course, I know that these words will go in vain and will be seeing the same thing stated in the next page.

For those of you complaining about the process used in this suspect test, it's not really all that different from the others. The only notable differences I can see are a smaller voting pool and a faster test which would've likely gave us the same result anyway. If you're saying that this process is flawed, then the other process is also flawed.

 

[drcossack]

For the people who have said Mence is going to suck in Ubers, as well as the ones who are likely to echo that sentiment, I present to you Theorymon's Salamence Analysis for Ubers

For the ones who won't read that link: if you don't play Ubers, don't comment on how Mence will do there.

 

[RaikouLover]

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?

Breloom and Lucario will be dicks.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?

No. Salamence wasn't the end all force of stall breakage. At all.

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?

Breloom. Machamp will be more of a dick now since I can't draco that motherfucker.

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

Bullshit. I don't mean disrespect, but the mentality here is "ban first, ask questions later."

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?

It sucks.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?

Scizor probably a bit.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?

Good question, that is to be determined.

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

Nope. Its never a good time to ban.

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?

It wasn't because it made people have to think and predict. But hey, now I can make a mindless team that works like clockwork. Time to whore triple fighting.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?

See, a trend. Lets ban everything! I nominate Breloom since I'm forced to sacrifice a pokemon to sleep to get something else in.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Just want to quickly address some recurring arguments I saw in the first couple of pages. For those people who feel the council process was unfair and that the council members were just the 'popular moderators', have a good read of this thread. Have a look at the effort put into the applications, and in particular take a look at the successful ones. Then ask yourself, do these users not have the credentials that entitle them to vote? These users are the among the best battlers smogon has to offer, as shown by the extensive tournament lists demanded of each. They are all respected users, and they have allowed us to have a quick and efficient suspect test that I far prefer to some of the messes we've got ourselves into in the past.

Those people who keep on saying that 'Gen 5 will be released in just a couple of months, why ban Mence now!?' need to realise that Gen 4 needs to be balanced regardless of whether or not a new gen is coming. Gen 4 has been incredibly popular and there will always be a largish number of people who will want to continue to play it. Also, while BW are being released quite soon, we have no idea what mechanics changes there will be, and so getting an accurate simulator up will definitely take many many more months after that. Even if there are no mechanics changes, simply adding new Pokemon, moves and abilities will take time. So really, there is definitely a point to striving towards this balanced gen 4 metagame.

Personally, I'm quite glad to see Salamence go. I was on the fence for a really long time because like most people I love the feel of the thing, but I think it really will increase metagame diversity. It is Salamence's Speed that broke it. The fact that it possessed such firepower is fair enough, but when it outsped or speedtied the vast majority of the metagame, it forced the metagame to adapt through a bottleneck in order to check it. Salamence probably had this coming for a long time. I had a proper 'holy shit' feeling the first time I used DD outrage mence after platinum's release, but the fact that it coincided almost perfectly with Garchomp's ban, Scizor's Bullet Punch, and all the Shaymin-S Latias and Stage-3 stuff, it kind of fell out of the limelight for a while. For those who feel they will miss mence too much though, you need to remember that Dragonite can play very similarly, but it is a much more fair pokemon I feel since it while it does pack a ton of destructive power it still allows for a much wider range of Pokemon to act as checks for it.

And Chou, if you've not done so already, I recommend you give LO Sceptile a try :D. It really lives up to all the hype it's been getting, and it fits your playstyle pretty perfectly. One seriously cool gecko right there :D.

Well this pretty much wraps things up.

I personally was (am) against Salamence's ban, but as an original proponent in PR for a faster council-based plan, I am proud to accept the decision made. That said, I think it could have been done even faster with less regard for obsessiveness in deliberation, and hopefully will be done faster for generation 5.

For those who are looking to Gen 5 as the next big step for the metagame, keep in mind that the suspects of 4th gen will most likely have to be re-evaluated for 5th, though there are some that probably ought to remain uber *cough*Garchomp*cough*.

When Flygon is a top 10 pokemon of the suspect meta, I think it's safe to say Garchomp is just . . . yeah . . .

Anyway Legacy, I'd have to say that any value Sceptile has comes from it having awesome speed and special attack, and not so much from it being a grass type. If it were a pure water type, I'd say it would have a lot more going for it offensively.

. . . though I've been more into spiking semi-stall to Flygon or Lucario sweep than pure offense lately. ;)

 

[deluge]

Here's the issue. Out of the two camps as far as "determining what deserves to be banned" is concerned, the "only ban broken things" camp completely dropped the ball a long time ago. Nobody has articulated why this community specifically shouldn't mercilessly ban every Pokemon that has an appropriately (i.e. "capable of being articulated in just about any way at all") negative impact on the metagame. It just hasn't been done.

So why should anyone be surprised that the "make a good metagame, who cares if we ban a lot of stuff" camp has gained such momentum? It's certainly appealing. I mean, everyone wants a "good metagame" (whatever that means), and many people even enjoy the lengthy testing process. It's also virtually unopposed, with most arguments amounting to halfhearted, insufficient reiterations of Sirlin articles, or worse-- people who hold the same "let's design a metagame" viewpoint, and merely have a different opinion of what that metagame should be. Those people are ultimately in complete philosophical agreement with all of Smogon's recent bans whether they know it or not, so I wouldn't even really classify them as "opposition" in the first place.

Anyway, I see this thread isn't really about Smogon's current banning philosophy, so I guess I'll stop there. Salamence was definitely an irritating, stressful Pokemon to deal with, and though none of that makes him "broken" by any stretch of the imagination, I'm excited that this change will likely result in much more manageable, skill-based individual games.

You articulated that response perfectly well.
I fall firmly and unflinchingly in the "only ban broken stuff" camp, as you termed it. I beleive that most Pokemon should be free to be used if at all possible.
Yet it is clear to me that the attitude of banning stuff with the hope of stumbling on this undefined "perfect metagame" is the ascendant philosophy.

While the Uber characteristics provide a facade of objectivity wrt to the Pokemon's actual effect, they have been successfully massaged to fit a steady march of Pokemon.
As far as I recall every "suspect" has been banned even if it required multiple votes to accomplish it.
[In the light of the above, the council process is entirely appropriate. Cut the show and just decide! The "suspect" designation is an implicit decision.]

But, I am not complaining.
Because with recognition of the fact that I have not just a difference of opinion wrt to each suspect but a difference in viewpoint wrt to the whole process comes an acceptance of the conclusion that the game the majority of Smogon wants is simply not the game I want.
I can live with that!

 

[Chou Toshio]

Oh, and:

I find it weird how people say things like "Grass is a bad type". What is a good or bad type is dependent upon the metagame. Like in UU, Grass is quite a good type. Roserade, Shaymin and Venusaur have all been #1 on the UU ladder, for example.

You cannot look at strength in UU without keeping in perspective the context of OU. Remember that the pokemon who are allowed in UU are those who could not succeed in OU.

In other words, fire and grass types are weak, so the result is a lot of fire and grass pokemon who otherwise have terrific base stats and move pools find themselves in UU for no other reason than that their typing hold them back.

Pokemon like Venusaur, Uxie, Articuno, Arcanine and Moltres all have terrible competitive typing. Looking at many of our BLs like Honchkrow and Yanmega, you see the continuation of this trend. Even Raikou is weak in OU because pure electric is simply not good enough offensively or defensively.

Despite bad typing though, these pokemon are all exceptional when it comes to some combination of base stats, move pools or abilities. Those strengths in other categories make them dominate in the overall weaker UU game despite their weakness in OU. Just because fire or grass types succeed in the weaker metagame, do not make the mistake of seeing that as strength of the typing itself.

How do you know if a type is good or bad? Look at weaknesses/resistances, check for weakness to Bug, Rock or Dark (U-Turn, SR, and Pursuit respectively), look at coverage. That's how you can see if a type is innately good or not, since those aspects are all that is innate to a typing.

 

[nesan]

No we won't. salamence has been playable in ubers since ADV, and the fact that he is now banned in OU will not affect his playability in ubers one bit. Comments like this really piss me off as they are extremely common and show an absolute ignorance towards the tiering system. We already know how salamence performs in ubers. He is mostly overshadowed by rayquaza but is still powerful and can work for a double dragon strategy.

Not everyone started playing competitive battling since ADV honey.

 

[bigfoots]

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Less base 100+ scarfers, less reliance on priority

2.Will stall be a dominant force?
Not while Heracross is still here...

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Shaymin, Kingdra

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Nice that it didn't take 4 months

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Don't care

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor, Mamoswine

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Shaymin, Arcanine (Give it a try)

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
Why not.

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
It was by far the strongest threat in standard once Latias was banned

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Uhh...if I had to pick Tyranitar

 

[ToF]

I don't understand your frustration. Whether or not Salamence went to ubers or not still does not take away from the fact that the process was flawed, but im not going to sway more into that. Also i'm not feeling the way that you basically bashed the majority of users here who do care about what happens and believe it or not *gasp* have some idea what the fuck there talking about in lue of how many battles they play on the very laggy server.We have the right to criticize because believe it or not we don't know why you guys made the decisions that you made. In my humble opinion the suspect ladder was stupid. Taking out a pokemon is not really testing it. The real "testing" went on on the standard ladder because we can actually see the sprite. I played about 4 battles on suspect ladder and all the teams were extreme stall teams. Stall + laggy smogon server = boring and annoying, im not doing it.


tl;dr : Playing on ladder and in random tournament does not make you anymore of a viable candidate for a "experienced battler" than people who just play non rated games for fun with friends shoddy or wifi (battle me thread) .

You're complaining about lag and then saying you deserve to be on the council. I'm sorry, that's just pathetic. Everyone has the same problem with 'lag' and made it out just fine, that's a fairly weak excuse to start off your counterargument with.

Secondly, there's a reason the process involved playing on the STANDARD LADDER in conjunction with the SUSPECT LADDER. I don't think you even read the process for becoming a voter fully, so again you didn't deserve to vote.

Yeah, I won't rely on people that play the game for fun on 'wifi' lol to decide the tiering of a competitive Pokemon. Completely different metagame anyway.

Utterly ridiculous. Salamence is no more Uber than Heatran. --

I am not "lazy" for not applying to the council. Some people actually have other affairs they must deal with before becoming buried in battling on a Pokemon simulator. However, I played enough battles in both Suspect and Standard to know that Salamence is very powerful, and a good stall breaker, but it has weak points that are very easily taken advantage of. Suspect was a slow, utterly boring tier that, in my opinion, is not as involving as Standard was at that time.

But that's just me and my "lazy" opinion.

Heatran being Uber, that's a new one....

Who said the council members don't have a life? I didn't whore out battles 24/7 either. 2-3 battles a day suffices on both ladders, I'd hardly say that is difficult.

All the complains about suspect being slow must be because you played too many stall teams. On a new ladder, that's bound to happen obviously, because Stall is one of the most reliable playstyles. Nonetheless, other playstyles were arguably more popular, including the FWG core that almost every offensive player utilized to success. Hardly 'boring' in my opinion. If you think that's boring, you're playing the wrong game.

I feel like most people here are just bitter that the council members happen to be good battlers and more prominent members of the community. Well guess what - I didn't see an application to the council from any of you that seem to be attacking my criticism now did I? How can you claim you aren't lazy when you didn't even apply to an OPEN THREAD where anyone that played was welcome to apply. Again, don't hate on the people that actually applied and earned there way onto the council. Put blame on yourselves for literally showing no effort. I could understand if you applied to the council and then made judgments, but again none of the people I'm replying to did.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Not everyone started playing competitive battling since ADV honey.

That was not his point, but rather that you should/could have known by now that Salamence is usable in DPPt Ubers.

 

[Misa]

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Similar to suspect. Scizor will lose his top spot and things like Flygon and Infernape will rise. Heatran will be a pain-in the ass.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?
Once you lose a wallbreaker, you gotta create new ones. Dragonite does an excellent job of breaking down stall with his nice 134/100 in both Att/SpA stats. Maybe SD Infernape could pop up and start breaking down Bulky Waters!

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Outspeeding Rayquaza is rather important, but as far as I know, Rayquaza mostly outclasses Salamence in almost every aspect except for speed.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Shaymin, Raikou, Staraptor?

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
With B/W around the corner, I think this was a bad idea because there didn't seem to be any reason that Salamence should be banned. Maybe B/W would make Mence less broken.

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
Salamence was not a good candidate for ubers because he had a crippling weakness to stealth rock as well as Life Orb draining his damage even further. Most of the things in OU could 2HKO Mence, which could hamper Mence's ability to dominate the metagame.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Jirachi for its stupid Iron-head flinch. Mayyyyyyyyyybe Lucario

 

[OmegaForte]

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Well I will be seeing a rise in Dragonite, and now my Gallade can sweep teams easier with that thing out of the way
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
The def. Heatran+Vaporeon+def. T-tar is always happening on wi fi, now more stall will haunt me.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Like I said before, Gallade and Dragonite.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Not necessary because it wasn't that hard to bring down.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Not sure but I know what it won't be doing well with Ray+chomp around.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor, Weavile, Mamo, (I even think I never see these guy anymore), and maybe Flygon.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Registeel? It isn't bad in the OU area and might be used a lot more now.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
No.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
Outclassed perhaps? Obvious, no?
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Maybe Heatran or Jirachi. Both are very unpredictable. (Yes, I had face even torment trans)

 

[Despotar]

Hey, all you guys saying these things like Tyranitar, Jirachi, Luke, etc should be banned, think. Does the metagame revolve around then? Are they was overpowered? If the answer is no, it shouldn't be suspect'd. This metagame is balanced.

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Usage in things such as Zapdos, Ape, Starmie, etc with jump for a while, then probably fall back down to things like Nite.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?
Not to much. I played a lot of suspect, and as much as it was good, there are plenty of wallbreakers without Mence. A.K.A Gliscor.

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Infernape Zapdos Starmie

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
I like it.

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
It needs a team to utilize it, but it can do well.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Mence. Lol jk. HP ice gengar, stuff like that.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Probably quite a few. Mence countered a lot.

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
Yes.

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
The metagame was revolving around it. You never want that for any one pokemon.
The thing with mence, is, you can't have a 100% counter. It really depends on the set.