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Lati@s Discussion Thread

Dragon is a great mono-attacking type, though. It only has one resist and no 4x resists
Very true. Which is a reason why ResTalk Kingdra uses Outrage or why Bulky DDDragonite might only be attacking with Dragon Claw. However, with the abundance of Steel typed Pokemon in OU who can either setup a Light Screen or, just take Latias down easily, running a mono-attacking set would seem pretty... well, risky.

, plus it resists Fire from Heatran
And? Lots of Heatran's checks resist Fire.

and Scizor's Special Defense is decidedly mediocre.
What's stopping it from U-turning away, Pusuiting or, just X-Scissoring.

Blissey will never use Psych Up because it is absolutely worthless outside of countering esoteric CMers.

I agree with this; however, Blissey in OU could just sacrifice her support/status move for it which really isn't such a big burden on herself, anyway unless you cannot stop Scarfed threats from rapeing your team :s.
 
Considering one outcome is allowing both at the same time (if that's not correct me), then we need to be able to test what it's like with both of them in the game, methinks.
The same can be said of any two suspects though, which is why Stage 3 exists, and also why I completely agree with you that the process by which we decide what is/isn't banned from standard is "backwards." The fact is, we can't turn around now and say "well never mind, let's do it the right way now!" (which is pretty much exactly why Amazing Ampharos, probably before DP was even released stateside, was already saying that we should start off DP with no bans/clauses whatsoever), so the people who don't have this fixation on the "real OU metagame" (the same mentality that has helped keep the "UU reset" controversial for several months, because "they're not the real UU!") are kind of stuck hoping that Stage 3 serves as OU's "reset" so to speak.

At this point I honestly think that the best bet for those people is to push for Stage 3 to be as fleshed-out and thorough as possible. I'm obviously being very presumptuous here, but I think it's imperative that, when the time comes, we don't just look at Stage 3 as a confirmation of our good Stage 1/2 decisions, and a nice little band-aid fix for our bad ones. Those who are already skeptical of the initial stages of this process might find it more useful to focus on Stage 3's potential too; I think it's inevitable that, whether we go back to using a Bold Vote, the current voting system, or a hybrid of the two, we're still running into a lot of bias and a lot of controversy no matter what. I think the voting system has a lot less to do with our problems than the system as a whole (though that isn't to say that I particularly like it the way it is).

We're given a month or less to really figure out how each of our Suspects changes the metagame: even if people actually used that entire month of testing (which they don't), such a short period of time gives us plenty of ways to vote something Uber when it in fact "wouldn't be" in the long run once things actually settled. There are plenty of votes in both the Deoxys-S and Shaymin-S polls that either preemptively deem something to be too strong based on a couple weeks of experience, or literally predict that "once the metagame settles it will dominate." This is a problem that, judging from the utter lack of controversy most of these types of votes have generated, I don't think would be solved by implementing a Bold Vote system, or really by doing anything beyond giving the "OU side" some kind of artificial advantage ("only needs 40% of the vote to win"). It's just the way things go when we've already committed to the notion that testing suspects one at a time (which suddenly makes time an issue) is the way to go... but since that obviously can't be the case for Stage 3, it seems rather ideal to me.


So yeah, sorry for veering things somewhat off topic like that, there's just a lot to think about with this crazy system and with Aldaron's old testing proposal getting the shaft I'd love to see someone reassure me, that Stage 3 could viably do that justice.
 
I have a feeling that Calm Mind Blissey will make a small reappearance till people find better ways to get past this. Icy Wind might actually get popular on bulky waters so they don't become complete setup bait, also, which is also a good idea to take down Roost spamming dragons/fliers.
 
I have a feeling that Calm Mind Blissey will make a small reappearance till people find better ways to get past this. Icy Wind might actually get popular on bulky waters so they don't become complete setup bait, also, which is also a good idea to take down Roost spamming dragons/fliers.

hahaha. lol. They ARE intended to stay in uber, These Things Match Up with the Likes of Mew, Even though The Dont have those MOnster Base Stats, They Can Still have aHuge Movepool and Good Items.

And Calm Mind Bliss Is Mostly for UBEr use..
 
hahaha. lol. They ARE intended to stay in uber, These Things Match Up with the Likes of Mew, Even though The Dont have those MOnster Base Stats, They Can Still have aHuge Movepool and Good Items.

And Calm Mind Bliss Is Mostly for UBEr use..

What... in the hell is wrong with your keyboard?

With that said, many things have a diverse movepool with those "monster" stats; Tyranitar is a pure example of this. Tyranitar can be holding a LOT of items and can run multiple movesets, of which you would hope that it doesn't run.

Latios is really the only one I can make out as a problem since it can potentially run through virtually any team that doesn't carry a Blissey, Scizor or Tyranitar. Dragon Dance has some potential since Latios has a nice STAB and a somewhat good Attack to pull it off from; however, Calm Mind and Choice Specs variants are most likely the scariest since Latios can 2HKO even the bulkiest of OU's walls.

Scizor's "It's a Trap!" set was intended for Ubers but, that doesn't stop any OU players from using it. Same goes for CMBlissey, it'll just rise in usage just as Naive Heatran did when Skymin came to the OU metagame.
 
personally i cant wait for latias haha!

I am planning on using some sort of set of a stall team like this:

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 144 HP/16 Def/96 Spd/252 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Wish
- Reflect
- Dragon Pulse / Psychic
- Roar

this set plans to abuse toxic spikes, spikes, and stealth rock as well as using a cb weavile to kill off spinners. Latias provides beautiful wish support as well as reflect for my tentacruel (toxic spiker) and possibly blissey if she makes it on the team. Roar is the magic move forcing opponents out. the numbers are simple: 144 hp for 337, a nice sr number. 16 defense because with reflect i really wont need defense. 96 speed is for 280 speed which will always beat adamant lucario meaning you get to reflect as he swords dance, wish out to a different pokemon, or try and fight with wish + dragon pulse because it still is a nice stab attack doing decent damage. psychic is a really cool option because it ohkos heracross who im pretty sure wont ohko you with cb megahorn but i dont know ill calc it later. Psychic also helps beat gengar and lucario a lot easier. the rest is in special defense to take any special hit and i mean any:

what impressed me was this one calc here:

Timid Life Orb Gengar to Latias:
Min: 40.36%

Average: 43.92%

Max: 48.07%

ok so this thing isnt even 2hkoed by timid life orb gengar's shadow ball and this is pretty much the best special attacker you fight haha. specs lucario dark pulse is probably the next best one off the top of my head. if you can reflect up, you will have a monster pokemon for your team.
 
Umm KinglerDude that's incorrect

You forgot to include STAB

Life Orb Gengar's Shadow Ball (359 SA) vs 394 SDef Latias (w/o Soul Dew)
Damage: 204-242
(204, 206, 210, 212, 216, 216, 218, 222, 224, 228, 228, 230, 234, 236, 240, 242)
 
ugh thanks, alright upping latios hp a bit more i suppose, do you think it is safe to stay with 270 speed over 280?
 
Well I don't really play OU, so I'm not too sure
280 Speed allows you to outrun neutral base 90s (Lucario mainly)
270 lets you outrun neutral base 85s.

This honestly depends on the threats in today's metagame (or the future metagame, actually). This wouldn't be the most reliable thing you can send into SDLuke though because

1) If you decide to use Dragon Pulse, then they could theoretically just keep setting up. I mean you switch into Luke's Swords Dance, you Reflect, it Swords Dances again. Now whatever you switch in afterwards have to take an equivalent to a +1 attack Lucario. That or Lucario could Swords Dance again, making the whole setting up a Reflect thing not so much of a help when you consider that Latias isn't a safe switch in in the first place (Ice Punch/Crunch does a lot if it predicts her, and afterwards Latias will just lose). Of course, this is easily covered by either Psychic or mentality (meaning your opponent doesn't suspect it).

2) There's still a chance that they might use Jolly Luke and annihilate Latias anyways
 
On an added note, Heracross- ScarfCross mainly- can switch into Psychic, Dragon Pulse Reflect or Wish and just 2HKO or OHKO (without Reflect) with Megahorn.
 
On an added note, Heracross- ScarfCross mainly- can switch into Psychic, Dragon Pulse Reflect or Wish and just 2HKO or OHKO (without Reflect) with Megahorn.

It will not like Psychic (72% minimum) and then it could simply switch out. And then we get into the debate about Pursuit, and whether they switch or not, blah blah blah. It all comes down to A) do they switch and B) which attack is used. And I'd rather avoid that discussion again -_- Point is, switching in on Pyschic is not going to tickle
 
It will not like Psychic (72% minimum) and then it could simply switch out. And then we get into the debate about Pursuit, and whether they switch or not, blah blah blah. It all comes down to A) do they switch and B) which attack is used. And I'd rather avoid that discussion again -_- Point is, switching in on Pyschic is not going to tickle

My point was that Heracross has a decent chance to get in, hit Latias or, just scout for another Pokemon on the team rather than allowing Latias to proceed to just... support.

Also, where... exactly does Pursuit come in? I never mentioned it >.>...
 
The only thing I'm worried about with the Latis are the Double screen sets. If Deoxys-E can break the game, then so can the Latis whose speed is still decent and can live through Ttar's pursuit with reflect up a bit better than deoxys could
 
Also, where... exactly does Pursuit come in? I never mentioned it >.>...

Pursuit always comes in when the whole switching factor is mentioning. At least it is with T-Tar, so why not Hera? I was just mentioning it to stop a counterargument that leads to one big circle of rock paper scizors.
 
Pursuit always comes in when the whole switching factor is mentioning. At least it is with T-Tar, so why not Hera? I was just saying to stop a counterargument that leads to one big circle of rock paper scizors.

Mainly because Megahorn would be the far superior option since Latias could do one of the following:

A. Take shit damage from Pursuit with Reflect up or not.
B. Stay in and KO with Psychic
C. Not be OHKO'd by Pursuit on the switchout with Reflect up or not while Heracross may miss KOing or denting something.
D. While Reflect is up, scout for what move Heracross plans to use, Latias will just stay in on Pursuit and Wish her HP back, if Megahorn, Latias will now have lost at least 60% of its health which lowers her chances of coming back in later.

Which would you have Heracross in on, a Latias with most or all of its HP gone or, a Pokemon that can take Pursuit's sultry power as setup fodder?

With Scizor, Latias has almost no choice but to switch out since it resists all of her STAB options. Tyranitar takes shit damage from her moves, so, even with Reflect up, Latias will be forced out. May I also add the Attack increase, Pursuit base power increase on both of them and the ability to take hits much better?
 
What is with the only allowing 1 per team? If someone wants to double up on FIVE weaknesses they can have fun doing it. Just have a kick out of Weavile having a field day. Plus, what will stop that from happening when they both become OU? Yes, I really think they both will be integrated into OU :-D.
 
The Lati@s must also be held Uber without Soul Dew (Rather with this item them banning among the ubers, but this would mathematically risk speaking to create a metagame of Pokémon banned among the ubers, now in that list there is only Arceus and a Pokémon it seems too much me few to do another metagame), and it totally deals however with different Pokémon, Latios and Latias are clearly two different pokemons for the movepool one is a DDOutrager, the other one is one of the more infermabilis wisher. Another problem is to essentially stop them, currently it complains him of DDOutrageMence let's show up us of a Sweeper as Latios, an IceBeam of Blissey with little Satk not OHking Mence, let's show up us Latios that also has Recover (or Rest for the Toxic).
 
The Lati@s must also be held Uber without Soul Dew (Rather with this item them banning among the ubers, but this would mathematically risk speaking to create a metagame of Pokémon banned among the ubers, now in that list there is only Arceus and a Pokémon it seems too much me few to do another metagame), and it totally deals however with different Pokémon, Latios and Latias are clearly two different pokemons for the movepool one is a DDOutrager, the other one is one of the more infermabilis wisher. Another problem is to essentially stop them, currently it complains him of DDOutrageMence let's show up us of a Sweeper as Latios, an IceBeam of Blissey with little Satk not OHking Mence, let's show up us Latios that also has Recover (or Rest for the Toxic).

Your argument holds very little substance. First of all, I'm not seeing how Arceus is relevant to this discussion. Your point may be valid, but I'm not quite sure what you're saying due to the grammar issues. Also, restricting Latios to the role of DDOutrager with its base special attack of 130? And Latias is by no means an idle Wisher either (correct me if you meant something else by "infermabilis", with which I'm quite sure isn't a English word). If you're going to DDOutrage with Latios, you do mow through Blissey (with no need for Rest or Recover), but being locked in Outrage gives Scizor, Heatran, or Lucario the kill.

Formulating your opinion before the test is alright, but you should keep an open mind. After all, that's what testing is for. Like you, I think Latios should remain in Ubers while Latias will be viable in OU, but that may, and probably will, change during testing. I'm looking forward to using the twins on ladder :]
 
^I don't think Latios should remain Uber, personally. For one thing the Specs variants are ridiculously overpowered, but they're still walled by Blissey. I see your point though; Latias may have less of an overall effect on the Metagame. They could both make HP Ice a necessity on MixApe, as well.

DDOutrage with Latios is like... I don't know. It's obviously overshadowed by Mence, Kingdra and even Flygon, but it has good surprise value. Being locked into Outrage giving something the kill can be said for any Outrage user, though.
 
dont forget lati@s is only 2x weak to ice while most other dragons are 4x weak. thats a huge advantage it can even calm mind and recover against special ice attacks with ease add refresh to that and even blissey can't stop it.
 
The set Refresh, Recover, Calm Mind, Dragon Pulse is terrible because you are greatly exposed to far too many threats. You cannot threaten any Steel types and on top of that you open you're self to Tyranitar who fears nothing you can throw at him. imo that set is completely worthless because you open you're self to far more threats then just Blissey and Blissey could just run Calm Mind, Psych Up, or Icy Wind and still win out against Latios.
 
Amazing, have fun with lo cm latios raping teams ._.

It ohkoes ttar with a +1 sp.atk grass knot....Not only that but it is also really easy for latios to sweep teams...
 
Amazing, have fun with lo cm latios raping teams ._.

It ohkoes ttar with a +1 sp.atk grass knot....Not only that but it is also really easy for latios to sweep teams...
if that truly is the case, it will be apparent through testing.

and sure, it OHKO's 4 HP Dragon Dance Tar, but barely pulls off a 2HKO (possible 3HKO with leftovers) on 252 HP Tar
 
calm mind max sp.atk modest latios can only 3hko a ttar?

What damage calculator are you using lulz ._.

Latios is centralizing, it can simply sweep teams and with good prediction you can avoid getting beat by any of its counters (don't tell me that applies to every pokemon, since with prediction weavile can't beat fortress). All it's "checks" or "counters" are easilly ohkoed by lo cm latios easily.
 
Max HP T-tar is a great counter for the Latis. The 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Speed Choice Bander comes to mind. Grass Knot kills it, though. It depends how standard Grass Knot becomes. Of course, if the opposing team lacks a Blissey, Ttar, slower Pokemon with firepower and bulk or faster Pokemon with a move that can OHKO, there is a good chance that Latios can sweep. However, it's unlikely that a team will lack all of those things.

Phazer Heatran will work as well, unless the Latios has Surf.
 
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