Evasion: Hit or Miss?

[Icalasari]

I would like to bump this thread with some observations I have made about Double Team

I have an example set, and how to counter it, along with what I believe would happen to the metagame if it was allowed back in

First off, what I believe would happen to the Metagame, and why:

For starters, Tyrannitar, Hippowdon, and Abomasnow would become even more prevalent, as Sandstorm and Hail would at least allow residual damage to chip away at a DTer. Due to this, a more common item for a DTer would be Leftovers in order to negate this. That right there robs DTers of versatility, as the point of DT is to avoid damage. Another effect is that never miss moves would become more prevalent. I have read in some posts about how Never Miss moves would not be considered due to their power, but, in fact, there is a good reason. Think of it this way:

Pokemon A uses DT
Pokemon B takes this chance to use, say, Nasty Plot
Pokemon A uses Smokescreen or just continues
Pokemon B continues boosting stats
Pokemon A Baton Passes to Tyrannitar
Pokemon B Baton Passes to Roserade (for example)
Roserade has Speed EV's and a Timid Nature, so it goes first
Roserade uses +6 boosted Magical Leaf

Even with the Sandstorm boost, Magical Leaf would still be very nasty, maybe even fatal. And if Roserade has something like a Yache Berry for Ice Fang, it may even survive an attack if Tyranitar survives and finish it off with another Magical Leaf

Sorry if a counter to this method has been mentioned, I haven't gone through the entire thread yet. I only skimmed it enough to get an idea of what has and has not been suggested

Anyways, another problem with DT is, as mentioned before, the fact that it is a move. That means one less move is available. Here is an example of a Pokemon that could tear through teams with DT (I have done it before in battles allowing it, and I was a noob. However, I still lost most matches XD). Now, it may seem broken, especially with only having the one counter that I mentioned, but you must remember that I only look at type advantages when considering the counters for this. There are LOADS more counters for such a vicious thing:


Kingdra @ Leftovers
Modest/Adamant
Swift Swim
-Surf/Waterfall
-Smokescreen/Dragon Dance/HP Ground
-Toxic
-Double Team



Strategy: You start out right away by using Double Team six times. Then, you can reek havoc. If you go with Dragon Dance, have an Adamant Nature. Otherwise, go with Modest. Only use Waterfall with Adamant. Toxic lets you poison foes so you can stand back and laugh as they lose health while trying to hit you

Smokescreen variant: If the opponent sends out a Pokemon that is threat to you, use Smoke Screen to scare them into switching. Only thing worse than facing a Pokemon with maxed out evasion is facing a Pokemon with maxed out evasion while your accuracy is down. You can also use it to add a layer of safety

Pros:
-Scares away tough Pokemon in theory
-Improves chances of dodging

Cons:
-Opponent can use a Baton Passer, build up stats while you do, then Baton Pass to a Pokemon with Shock Wave or Aerial Ace, who, with the right boosts, will rip through Kingdra, even with lowered accuracy


Dragon Dance variant: After boosting your evasion, boost your speed and attack as well, then tear through the other team. Not much to it

Pros:
-+6 Evasion, Attack, and Speed. Enough said

Cons:
-Takes 12 turns to set up, which gives the foe enough time to strike, and if they manage to strike with a lucky STABbed Draco Meteor, then you could be in trouble


HP variant: There is a weakness with the other two sets. Empoleon. While you could normally surf Steel Types for at least neutral, and Toxic anything that resisted surf, well, Empoleon makes it not so. To my knowledge, it is the ONLY Pokemon that both resists surf and is immune to toxic. Sure, HP may rob you of the bonuses the other sets have, but it does allow you to handle that nasty little bugger

Pros:
-Takes care of Empoleon
-More type coverage

Cons:
-Robs you of the bonuses the other two provide


Counters:
Baton Passer and Empoleon. Here is a scenario with Smeargle:

Smeargle goes out against Kingdra
DD while Kingdra increases Evasion. If it smokescreens you, then keep on DDing and Baton Pass to Aerial Ace Empoleon. Otherwise, DD at MOST three times then Baton Pass to Empoleon, as it could have DD, and then you may have a few problem. Not many due to resistances, but still enough to weaken Empoleon

Upon sending out the now boosted Empoleon, use Aerial Ace. Kingdra will be helpless against it, as its main defense, DT, is useless against such an attack. It may not be super effective, but it should still be enough to take it out in a couple hits. If Kingdra has HP, then you may be able to kill it still if your opponent didn't predict right

 

[greg3064]

I think it would fall into the category of overcentralization. There is a degree of strategy involved when you choose Thunderbolt over Thunder. You're deciding whether you can afford to take a risk, which is why Evasion is different.

Under most circumstances, no one uses never-miss moves. Stuff like Aerial Ace saw some use in ADV, but even then it was outclassed by HP Flying, and now is outclassed by Brave Bird. Even if use of Evasion moves did warrant the use of never-miss moves, they would still retain their horrible base power and you'd probably lose to whatever you're fighting anyway (not to mention, only certain types have never-miss moves, so you'd get piss poor coverage and get walled by too much).

The only viable counter to an Evasion boosting Pokemon that I could think of is No Guard Machamp. In that case, you're basically hoping that your opponent doesn't have a move that will counter Machamp effectively. But eventually, people would realize its value and Evasion-boosters would run a move that can easily take out No Guard Machamp (Psychic, Zen Headbutt?)

 

[Icalasari]

I think it would fall into the category of overcentralization. There is a degree of strategy involved when you choose Thunderbolt over Thunder. You're deciding whether you can afford to take a risk, which is why Evasion is different.

Under most circumstances, no one uses never-miss moves. Stuff like Aerial Ace saw some use in ADV, but even then it was outclassed by HP Flying, and now is outclassed by Brave Bird. Even if use of Evasion moves did warrant the use of never-miss moves, they would still retain their horrible base power and you'd probably lose to whatever you're fighting anyway (not to mention, only certain types have never-miss moves, so you'd get piss poor coverage and get walled by too much).

The only viable counter to an Evasion boosting Pokemon that I could think of is No Guard Machamp. In that case, you're basically hoping that your opponent doesn't have a move that will counter Machamp effectively. But eventually, people would realize its value and Evasion-boosters would run a move that can easily take out No Guard Machamp (Psychic, Zen Headbutt?)

True, but what about inhibiting the Pokemon before it can even get off a double team?

"Oh, that is a Pokemon that usually runs a Double Team set!"
Pokemon A uses Toxic
Pokemon B uses DT
Pokemon A is swapped for a staller
Pokemon B attacks
Staller stalls until Pokemon B dies

It does leave the problem of Refresh, but combined with Taunt, Toxic would end up as another viable strategy

With steel type, Will-o-Wisp would work. And if you didn't want to use Toxic or Will-o-Wisp, then Thunder Wave would slow them down. Also, Hail and Sandstorm would always be able to chip away health, so, as stated before, there goes an item slot, as the point is to avoid damage. Also, Haze can wipe out the stat boost

As for how weak infinite accuracy moves are, and the lack of coverage:

Aerial Ace
Shock Wave
Magical Leaf
Faint Attack
Shadow Punch
Magnet Bomb
Swift

I believe that that would hit every type for at least neutral. As for the problem with power, well, DT takes a turn to set up. 6 if you want max evasion. If you boost their power through Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot, etc.:

1 boost per turn, starting at turn 0:
60
90
120
150
180
210
240

2 boosts per turn (E.g. Swords Dance), starting at turn 0:
60
120
180
240

That would pretty much be their base power (I know, stat modifiers affect the stat itself, not base power. Still, you get where I am going with this)

Even if they only used Double Team once, with prediction, you should now have enough power to effectively make something like Aerial Ace behave like a 120 base power move

 

[Phizzlax]

Tentacruel is immune to Toxic and resists water.

You also forgot the best unavoidable attack in your list: Aura Sphere.

I don't think everyone fully understands how unlikely it is to miss with 6 moves in a row while the opponent is double teaming (let alone 12 if they're trying to smokescreen). Sets that rely on throwing up a set of DTs and hoping no harm came in the meantime will never be even slightly successful because of how unlikely it is to go that long without being hit. The math is shown earlier in the thread IIRC.

 

[Darkmalice]

I must admit, I hate Double Team. I hate losing games due to hax like a lucky crit on my Salamence, I miss with Draco Meteor or Gliscor's Sand Veil kicks in as I use Ice Shard, enabling it to Baton Pass to Metagross.

Double Team requires little skill, and it turns the metagame to a game of luck. I agree with everyone here that it is probably most annoying when Baton Pass. Or even more annoying than Baton Passing to a powerful sweeper like Lucario, Baton Passing +6 evasion to a wall like Registeel, who can eventually defeat any pokemon over time.
I mentioned Registeel because with 252 Atk EVs, a neutral nature and a Muscle Band, it can actually 2HKO Blissey 83.83% of the time with Hammer Arm factoring in Leftovers. Cresselia, whilst also a good example, to 2HKO Blissey with HP Fighting, she needs a Modest nature, 252 SpA, +6 boost and at least an Expert Belt item boost.

Or worse still, imagine a team solely focused on getting +6 Def, SDef and Evasion and then Baton Passing to one of these walls. The game will become extremely long and possibly almost completely dependent on hitting the opponent AND scoring a critical hit. The chance of this: 33.3% * 6.25% = 2.08% with a hit. If that attack doesn't OHKO, it's probably not going to help either.

 

[greg3064]

I still think that Double Team is too easy to abuse. Most Pokemon can't get a good combination of infinite accuracy moves, so the point about perfect coverage isn't really true. Toxic could work, but it's counterable by steel types, Lum Berries, and its already shaky accuracy.

Also, using a turn to set up Swords Dance etc. wouldn't be quite as effective. Yes, you could effectively make Aerial Ace a 120 BP move, but it's still inferior to other moves after a Swords Dance.

Also, take a look at Heatran. Heatran resists all infinite accuracy moves other than Vital Throw, which is supereffective, and Shock Wave. Shock Wave is learned by a lot of Pokemon, but has 60 BP against Heatran's decent 107 base SpDef. Vital Throw is the strongest infinite accuracy move at 70 BP, but only can be learned by 3 Pokemon. It wouldn't even be useful on Machamp since he'd make better use of No Guard Dynamic Punch, Hariyama has piss-poor defenses and won't be taking Fire Blasts too well, and Pinsir cannot take any Fire move with bases 65 HP and 70 SpDef.

You also mentioned that you could switch to a Double Team counter when you encounter a Pokemon that often runs a Double Team set. Unfortunately, Double Team is learned by too many Pokemon for that kind of prediction. That means that if you don't predict the Double Team and can't immediately threaten the Pokemon (an incredibly likely situation), it will get off two Double Teams by the time you get a "counter" in. Really, you would have to assume that every Pokemon on your opponent's team runs Double Team, since assuming otherwise would be gamebreaking.

By the way, I'm personally not going to ditch half of my team and replace them with Smeargle (Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot, Baton Pass, Filler), Empoleon (Aerial Ace, Filler, Filler, Filler), and Roserade (Magical Leaf, Filler, Filler, Filler) just to counter 2 threats, albeit unreliably, since if Kingdra caught on and just attacked Smeargle, you lose. The point is that you would have to centralize your team in one of two ways: countering Double Team, or abusing Double Team.

 

[Phizzlax]

Also, take a look at Heatran. Heatran resists all infinite accuracy moves other than Vital Throw, which is supereffective, and Shock Wave. Shock Wave is learned by a lot of Pokemon, but has 60 BP against Heatran's decent 107 base SpDef. Vital Throw is the strongest infinite accuracy move at 70 BP, but only can be learned by 3 Pokemon. It wouldn't even be useful on Machamp since he'd make better use of No Guard Dynamic Punch, Hariyama has piss-poor defenses and won't be taking Fire Blasts too well, and Pinsir cannot take any Fire move with bases 65 HP and 70 SpDef.

By the way, I'm personally not going to ditch half of my team and replace them with Smeargle (Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot, Baton Pass, Filler), Empoleon (Aerial Ace, Filler, Filler, Filler), and Roserade (Magical Leaf, Filler, Filler, Filler) just to counter 2 threats, albeit unreliably, since if Kingdra caught on and just attacked Smeargle, you lose. The point is that you would have to centralize your team in one of two ways: countering Double Team, or abusing Double Team.

You also forgot Aura Sphere as an infinite accuracy move. And I hope you aren't serious about centralizing your team around that Kingdra. Do you know how you beat it? Attack it while it sets up :/ you'll beat it without taking damage almost all of the time. If you can't hit it twice over 12 turns then you're the unluckiest player in the universe (this is assuming your dragon type is already dead, otherwise you only have to hit it once). There are other counters that don't even have to worry about it's evasion. Celebi can switch in, take water attacks all day long and heal bell or natural cure the toxic away. If Kingdra is running surf over waterfall Blissey can do the same thing. If Blissey is running Toxic (or Celebi in it's case) you'll hit it eventually and Kingdra will become dead weight. TW messes it up a bit too.

Most cases of "DT IS BROKEN" really boil down to "hypothetically here's a Pokemon that will be a bitch to kill but hardly does a damn thing". In reality, it doesn't do a damn thing and it's not that hard to kill.

 

[Lightsabre]

what I believe would happen if we allowed double team into the game is Lucario usage would skyrocket. it and togekiss(outside of UBERs) are the only real viable users of no hit moves(aura sphere is a no hit move). calm mind luke would be really good if he got a sub and a couple of CMs. He's also immune to sandstorn which would probably go up in usage too.

EDIT: beaten to aura sphere

 

[greg3064]

And most cases of "DT isn't broken" really boil down to "if you are facing x with double team you are fine as long as you immediately catch on, switch to y, and start using move z."

Aura Sphere is learned by 2 OU Pokemon. Lucario can OHKO Heatran with it, but it'd call that centralized.

Spiritomb @ Bright Powder/Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/100 Def/156 SDef
Bold - Pressure
~ Double Team
~ Rest
~ Taunt/Sleep Talk
~ Dark Pulse

Situational, yes, but the point is, this wouldn't be easy to take down even without Double Team. It may not be doing a ton of damage, but it won't mind the occasional hit with +6 Evasion and recovery.

 

[petrie911]

Haze solves DT instantly. Foresight, Odor Sleuth, and Miracle Eye not only null evasion bonuses, but also prevent the target from ever gaining any more. Obviously, the perfect accuracy moves also hit through evasion. And, though they probably won't be allowed, OHKOs ignore evasion modifiers IIRC.

 

[Hipmonlee]

And most cases of "DT isn't broken" really boil down to "if you are facing x with double team you are fine as long as you immediately catch on, switch to y, and start using move z."

Think about that Kingdra set for example. It comes out, and lets say it doesnt take any damage. So you switch to a Kingdra counter as it uses Double Team. For example I will use my team which is made for a non DT setting. When I see Kingdra I switch to Celebi (Honestly, my team is really not good at countering Kingdra). Kingdra DTs on the switch. I will Grass Knot to scout for sub, and once I see it hasnt got sub I will TWave it. At this point it will be slower than all my other pokemon and OHKOed by 3 of them. It will take a hell of a long time to finish off my Celebi, and the chances that I wont have KOed it with Grass Knot in that time are extremely slim. But even if it does finish of Celebi I still have a pretty good shot at finishing it off with another pokemon before it manages to KO (my next switch would be Salamence, who will outspeed and OHKO and not be OHKOed by Waterfall, so it has a 4/9 shot of finishing it off, and this is after Kingdra killed Celebi).

My team that has no thought of the possibility of countering Double Team put into it and with pretty bad problems dealing with Kingdra generally just laughs at that set. Though to be honest, this is somewhat unfair because that is not a good DT Kingdra set..

Have a nice day.

 

[Relictivity]

Most cases of "DT IS BROKEN" really boil down to "hypothetically here's a Pokemon that will be a bitch to kill but hardly does a damn thing". In reality, it doesn't do a damn thing and it's not that hard to kill.

I actually disagree with this statment. Double Team IS easy to set up. And the more you use it, the more likely you are going to be able to use it again. And if the Double Teamer is immune to Toxic (like Clefable, Rest Talkers, or Steel Types), you are going to have a hard time forcing it out.

Probably the best way to force out a Double Teamer is throught the move Yawn. However, some Double Teamers won't switch out, even for that. Not to mention many run Sleep Talk

The only viable never miss moves I have found are Aura Sphere (Togekiss and Lucario), Shadow Punch (Dusknoir), and Ariel Ace (on random flyings who don't have better stab, like Scyther, also on Weavile)

These are all of the always hit opponent moves that would be useful: Arial Ace, Aura Sphere, Bide (possibly), Defog, Destiny Bond, Faint Attack, Foresight, Gravity, Haze, Heart Swap, Imprison, Lock-On, Magical Leaf, Magnet Bomb, Me First (possibly), Odor Sleuth, Pain Split, Perish Song, Psych Up, Shadow Punch, Shock Wave, Sketch (so you can Double Team), Swift, Transform (copies Stat-Ups), Vital Throw, Yawn.

Now you can see many possible things that you could possibly do with these moves, but the fact it, should we make it necessary to run these moves just to counter evasion. Note that with the exception of Aura Sphere, none of the damage moves are very powerful. And note that Taunt can block all of the other moves. For this reason, I belive that Evasion would force you to designate specific counters for pokemon you do not know specifically, which get's very close to impossible.

 

[BalancedPower]

These are all of the always hit opponent moves that would be useful: Arial Ace, Aura Sphere, Bide (possibly), Defog, Destiny Bond, Faint Attack, Foresight, Gravity, Haze, Heart Swap, Imprison, Lock-On, Magical Leaf, Magnet Bomb, Me First (possibly), Odor Sleuth, Pain Split, Perish Song, Psych Up, Shadow Punch, Shock Wave, Sketch (so you can Double Team), Swift, Transform (copies Stat-Ups), Vital Throw, Yawn.

Now you can see many possible things that you could possibly do with these moves, but the fact it, should we make it necessary to run these moves just to counter evasion. Note that with the exception of Aura Sphere, none of the damage moves are very powerful. And note that Taunt can block all of the other moves. For this reason, I belive that Evasion would force you to designate specific counters for pokemon you do not know specifically, which get's very close to impossible.

This is one of the best arguments against DT. It centralized the metagame. Honestly, if allowed, everyone will either use DT or stack their team with multiple DT counters. That centralizes the metagame, and soon it becomes a game of who double teams first, and who is luckier, which no one wants.

 

[ViRiD]

I believe it was the intention of a majority of the competitive rule sets to be as true to the original design of the game as possible. As such, unnecessary changes are always avoided. I don't believe that evasion is a necessary change. Evasion is frail and risky. A player that uses evasion recognizes that they are relying on chance to survive. They know that if they get hit through evasion, or if are somehow removed from the field, a lot of real investment was just wasted, and probably gave their opponent enough time to set up a full team sweep. A risk of this level does not deserve a reward, not ever? There are no uncounterable evasion users in the metagame. I'd go as far as to say that there are no pokemon in standard that would threaten a shift in the metagame outside of making people carry a perfectly accurate move in one of their slots. 1 moveslot for 1 pokemon? I'll take that free-bee.

If it can be proven that two players of equal skill, in which one has evasion, and one does not have evasion, have a close to 50/50 spread, then banning evasion was a mistake.

I understand peoples' desire to site an anecdote, describe how "hax'd" they were, and expect the community to accept it as reason for opinion. However, this is bullshit. Take this from a totally unbiased viewer entering this community very recently: having dedicated a large amount of free time to understand the nuances of the competitive game, you will never escape RNG in this game.

I see a lot of players attempting to take a chess approach to a poker game. You have a lot of statistics, and a lot of data. You plan and study and have wittled down your metagame to a matter of taking the same 20-odd pokemon and then putting your knowledge to the test in a battle. In chess, there is no RNG, and there is no chance. If you don't want to lose to RNG, then go play chess.

People have the tendency to attribute negative situations to fate, and positive situations to the sweat of your brow. This means that for every time you respond neutrally to your attack landing (even if it is a "risky" move), those occasions will be immediately ignored the first time you miss that hypnosis, but I believe Pokemon is a lot like poker. The best players always win. Not because they are lucky, but because, on a long enough time scale, things like evasion are a drop in the bucket. Even if whole games are lost to evasion, that means you really weren't winning by much anyway, if you were even winning at all. I can see how, in that situation, evasion would be a good scape goat for your pride's tears.

You'll see, if you feel like reading through some of the archived warstories, that pivotal moment where it seemed like the whole game rided on chance, and bam, that fireblast misses and you get KO'd. Or other times when your opponent switches a water-resistant pokemon into your surf, but it crits and you proceed to 2HKO the biggest counter to your team. But even more common are the cases where your fireblast misses, and you still proceed to win by out-predicting your opponent and in general melting face.

 

[Relictivity]

I believe it was the intention of a majority of the competitive rule sets to be as true to the original design of the game as possible. As such, unnecessary changes are always avoided. I don't believe that evasion is a necessary change. Evasion is frail and risky. A player that uses evasion recognizes that they are relying on chance to survive.

However, the more chances you take, the easier it is to survive. Evasion isn't frail and risky. It's built upon the same concept as Conufse Ray, though it is not as immediate, but more permanent. That is really the problem behind it - permanence. The things that hit through it are stop by good defenses and Taunt.

They know that if they get hit through evasion, or if are somehow removed from the field, a lot of real investment was just wasted, and probably gave their opponent enough time to set up a full team sweep.

Actually, sweeps rely heavily on move accuracy, and if the opponent cannot hit you, then you have prevented a sweep. Also, look at bulky tanks like Cress, they won't usually get 2HKOd. And most of time, it's more like 4HKO or 5HKO.

A risk of this level does not deserve a reward, not ever? There are no uncounterable evasion users in the metagame.

No, what there is is numerous amounts of evasion users in the metagame, and some even carry Taunt. Look at Tomb for example, knows Taunt, cannot be hit supereffectively, Knows Rest Talk. And also look at things like Clefable, which cannot take damage from Toxic, learn a healing move, and in the case of Clefable, Cosmic Power. Also, Roar and Whirlwind's accuracy are effected by evasion too.

I'd go as far as to say that there are no pokemon in standard that would threaten a shift in the metagame outside of making people carry a perfectly accurate move in one of their slots. 1 moveslot for 1 pokemon? I'll take that free-bee.

Unfortunately, it's not 1 slot, think of multiple double team users on the same team, if one doesn't resist your "always-hit" move, the other will. People will run teams like this.

If it can be proven that two players of equal skill, in which one has evasion, and one does not have evasion, have a close to 50/50 spread, then banning evasion was a mistake.

Unfortunately, I don't think we can prove or disprove this as it all depends on your moveset and whom the double teamers are. However, if the evasion user had proper Taunt support as well as pokemon to stop T-Spikes and Toxic, he would most likely win.

I understand peoples' desire to site an anecdote, describe how "hax'd" they were, and expect the community to accept it as reason for opinion. However, this is bullshit. Take this from a totally unbiased viewer entering this community very recently: having dedicated a large amount of free time to understand the nuances of the competitive game, you will never escape RNG in this game.

Actually, in my opinion "hax'd" is a totally inappropriate word for the situation. "Hax'd" means by random chance, unaffected by move choice. So a move is not haxed if it crits after a Focus Energy. Similarly, Evasion, Confuse Ray, Paralysis, and all of those if you purposefully cast them on the opponet, are not hax, but strategy. It just happens that Evasion tends to be harder to stop than the other two mentioned.

I see a lot of players attempting to take a chess approach to a poker game. You have a lot of statistics, and a lot of data. You plan and study and have wittled down your metagame to a matter of taking the same 20-odd pokemon and then putting your knowledge to the test in a battle. In chess, there is no RNG, and there is no chance. If you don't want to lose to RNG, then go play chess.

We understand pokemon has some chance, that is what makes it a game. We just don't want it to be to the point where strategy does not matter. Evasion would force everyone to run moves that would not necessarily stop the one doing the evading. There is not a "good enough" check on evasion yet.

People have the tendency to attribute negative situations to fate, and positive situations to the sweat of your brow. This means that for every time you respond neutrally to your attack landing (even if it is a "risky" move), those occasions will be immediately ignored the first time you miss that hypnosis, but I believe Pokemon is a lot like poker. The best players always win. Not because they are lucky, but because, on a long enough time scale, things like evasion are a drop in the bucket. Even if whole games are lost to evasion, that means you really weren't winning by much anyway, if you were even winning at all. I can see how, in that situation, evasion would be a good scape goat for your pride's tears.

As said, evasion IS strategy, so you were winning by alot. But someone's hard team building was lost to one strategy, because you did not put a less powerful move on the pokemon. Evasion would make even LESS variety in the metagame then there was now, everyone would be putting several checks in their team and it would become a match of "who got the first taunt".

You'll see, if you feel like reading through some of the archived warstories, that pivotal moment where it seemed like the whole game rided on chance, and bam, that fireblast misses and you get KO'd. Or other times when your opponent switches a water-resistant pokemon into your surf, but it crits and you proceed to 2HKO the biggest counter to your team. But even more common are the cases where your fireblast misses, and you still proceed to win by out-predicting your opponent and in general melting face.

Of course, part of skill is being able to recover. But as if you miss on evasion, it becomes even harder to recover the ground you lost than in other situations.

 

[greg3064]

Evasion increases the chance of that "hax". It means you're more likely to miss a few pivotal Stone Edges or Fire Blasts.

Regardless, it doesn't really do harm to test it. More than likely it would have sporadic use. People would use it at first, drop it as counters developed, and then no one would use counters and it would repeat. That's how the whole metagame works, obviously, but I'm under the impression that with evasion it would be faster.

 

[Relictivity]

Evasion increases the chance of that "hax". It means you're more likely to miss a few pivotal Stone Edges or Fire Blasts.

I disagree. Hax is where it is not effected by the moves of any of the users. So body slam Paralysis would be hax, where as Thunder wave paralysis would not. Similarly, Acupressure evasion would be haxy, where as Double Team or Minimize evasion would be not. Hax implies that the event was totally based on chance, where if you are using a move to raise that chance, it can't really be considered hax anymore. Otherwise your opponent could call Thunder hitting under Gravity "hax".

Regardless, it doesn't really do harm to test it.

I agree, it doesn't really do harm. But it could cause some unforseen problems.

More than likely it would have sporadic use. People would use it at first, drop it as counters developed, and then no one would use counters and it would repeat. That's how the whole metagame works, obviously, but I'm under the impression that with evasion it would be faster.

I disagree. There would be many people who would try evasion out. I for one would. It's like this, use something stable immune to poison, Taunt, DT, DT... repeat and heal when necessary. Then spam your two moves (preferrably Fighting Ghost, or Fighting Dragon for type coverage) until you are out. If you set up Stealth Rock or Spikes beforehand, the other person is forced to attack you futilelessly or switch and take damage - only to be Taunted again. No, I think evasion would have heavy impact on the metagame.

 

[Setrack]

the best way to deal with double team is just to make the moves you would have already made anyway.

 

[SunshineCat]

I think Evasion's impact on the Metagame would be too large to unban it. Counters would be made and Machamp will be used much more. People will have to reform teams to fit in with the newly un-banned DT and heaps will be adding it.

As for making Pokemon more of a game of luck...I think that's correct. It'll all be a chance of hitting or not hitting. Choosing between Surf and Hydro Pump is more skillful than using one move six times. DT would be too powerful depending on the Pokemon.

For example:

Gliscor @ Bright Powder
Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP/ 255 Spd/ 6 Sp Def
Jolly(+Spd, -Sp Att)
~ Roost
~ Baton Pass
~ Substitute
~ Double Team

Bright Powder, Sand Veil(supposing you set up with Hippo/TTar) and Double Team 6 times make it practically impossible to hit. Yes, setting up could be intruded but not as easily as Swords Dance/Nasty Plot etc would. Roost can heal when needed and then Gliscor can pass to something that's already a threat and let it sweep.

Smogon doesn't seem like the place to play with luck, it's skill. I know there are things like Bright Powder but they wouldn't be nearly as game changing as DT.

If someone has said this, sorry. I'm not the sort of person with time to go through all the pages of discussion to find one thing.

 

[Hipmonlee]

All these unbeatable sets are easily beaten. That Gliscor is Roar bait. Roar is affected by evasion, but the chance of you double teaming 6 times, and subbing and baton passing without roar hitting you once is actually pretty damn small.

I only just made a post explaining how my team which doesnt have anything from Relictivity's very long list of moves can deal with double teamers without any changes. You do not need 100% hit moves to beat Double Team the same way you do not need Roar to beat Swords Dancers.

If it can be proven that two players of equal skill, in which one has evasion, and one does not have evasion, have a close to 50/50 spread, then banning evasion was a mistake.

What about if you took two players of equal skill and one could use earthquake and one can not how close do you think they would be to 50/50 spread?

Have a nice day.

 

[Darkmalice]

I have decided to change my view from supporting Evasion Clause to opposing it and supporting the inclusion of Double Team in our current OU metagame.



Here's the Evasion modifiers:

-6: 300% (9/3) chance of a 100% base accuracy move hitting
-5: 266.7% (8/3)
-4: 233.3% (7/3)
-3: 200% (6/3)
-2: 166.7% (5/3)
-1: 133.3% (4/3)
0: 100% (3/3)
+1: 75% (3/4) (3/(3+1))
+2: 60% (3/5) (3/(3+2))
+3: 50% (3/6)
+4: 42.9% (3/7)
+5: 37.5% (3/8)
+6: 33.3% (3/9)

If +9 was obtainable, the chance would be 25% (3/(3+9)) = (3/12).


Here's the defence modifiers:
-6: * 400% damage dealt
-5: * 350% damage dealt
-4: * 300% damage dealt
-3: * 250% damage dealt
-2: * 200% damage dealt
-1: * 150% damage dealt
0: * 100% damage dealt
+1: * 67% damage dealt
+2: * 50% damage
+3: * 40% damage
+4: * 33% damage
+5: * 28% damage
+6: * 25% damage


So let's say there's two pokemon with the same stats. One has +6 Evasion, and one has +6 Defense. Now let's say there is a Rattata that only knows Quick Attack and every time it hits, it does exactly 100 damage to both of these pokemon excluding the effect of damage modifiers.

The pokemon with +6 Evasion has a 33.3% chance of being hit by a 100 base accuracy power move. Chances are that if a Rattata used Quick Attack on this pokemon 3 times, it would hit once, and that pokemon would take 100 damage. If that Rattata used Quick Attack on the +6 Defense pokemon, each of the Quick Attacks would hit, but they would only deal 25% of the damage they are meant to do. Each Quick Attack would deal 25 damage, and the pokemon takes 75 Damage.


This is an example backed up by the data. Statistically, Defence boosts are better than Evasion boosts. If +9 modifiers were possible, statistically, +9 Evasion is equal to +6 Defense, for that is when the accuracy of moves on a pokemon would decrease to 25% (3/12). This would imply that Cosmic Power/Stockpile is more broken than Double Team, for it is more likely to reduce the overall damage that a pokemon will take.


Of course, such a claim would be taken as outrageous. There are three reasons why:

First off, Roar/Whirlwind has a much easier time at removing Defense boosts than Evasion boosts. However, the chance of Roar hitting a pokemon as it DTs before it reachs +6 is very high.

Secondly, Defense boosts do not protect the user from critical hits - that is the 6.25% chance of a crit actually occurring.


Finally, and perhaps most importantly, Double Team is available to almost every pokemon whilst Double Team isn't, despite there being some decent users of Cosmic Power like Jirachi, Starmie and Clefable. However, such sets are never seen due to their lack of power. But would they be better with Double Team in place of Cosmic Power? Probably not.

Probably the bigget debate about Double Team is when used in Baton Passing teams. Every pokemon that cant know Baton Pass can know Double Team. The only three pokemon that can know Baton Pass and Cosmic Power are Lunatone, Solrock and Smeargle, and the only three that can know Baton Pass and Stockpile are Driflbim, Mawile and Smeargle. Obviously, it is far easier to Baton Pass Double Team than Cosmic Power/Stockpile, especially considering that Smeargle would much rather be used to Baton Pass Ingrain, Mean Look or Belly Drum.

But what about +2 Defense Stat modifiers - Iron Defense, Amnesia, Acid Armor and Barrier?Well, using Iron Defense halves the damage taken from physical attacks (50%) whilst the damage taken from special attacks is the same (100%). For the sake of my argument, let's average the two percentages and say that Iron Defense has improved the user's "overall defense" and it will take 75% "overall damage." This is exactly the same percentage as the chance of a 100 base accuracy move hitting a pokemon after 1 DT. So in the long run, chances are that a pokemon that uses Iron Defence once will be benefited the same if he had used Double Team in place of Iron Defence.

But what if two Iron Defenses were used. The physical damage taken is now 33%, so the pokemon will take 66.7% "overall damage". What is the chance of the pokemon that, instead, uses two Double Teams, is hit by an attack? 60%. In the long run, that's less damage taken.

Does this mean that Double Team is better than +2 Defense modifiers... what if I used one Iron Defense and one Amnesia? What's the overall damage I would take? Well, that's the average of 50% and 50%, which is 50%. A pokemon that has used Double Team twice has a 60% chance of being hit - in the long run, the pokemon that used one Iron Defense and Amnesia is better.

Now which pokemon can know Amnesia and Iron Defence/Acid Armor/Barrier (excluding Ubers)? Corsola, Cradily, Gorebyss, Marcargo, Swalot, Torkoal, Registeel and Smeargle. Out of these, Gorebyss and Smeargle are the only ones that can also know Baton Pass. But perhaps more importantly, one pokemon would not want to have two of its moveslots taken up by Defence boosting moves.

This then come to my final point that Baton Pass Teams revolve around Passing +6 Def and +6 SDef around the team. After receiving an Agility Boost from Zapdos and an Ingrain boost from Smeargle, the team would, let's say aim to let Vaporeon pass +6 Def to Gorebyss to pass +6 SDef onto the next pokemon. Assuming there is no need for switches to teammates and recovery moves, that's 4 moves used by each pokemon (3 Acid Armors/Amnesias and 1 Baton Pass each, reducing overall damage to 25%. If, instead, Vaporeon used 6 Double Teams and 1 Baton Pass, that's 7 moves used, but it only reduces overall damage to 33.3%. If Vaporeon was able to obtain +9 with Double Team, to reduce overall damage to 25%, it would require 10 turns, two turns too many - the process of Baton Passing Evasion Boosts is not as efficient as passing Defense Boosts. And that just cost me 1 extra moveslot out of my 24 moveslots.

If you're going to argue that a crit with Machamp's Close Combat will OHKO my +6 Def Gorebyss, well yes, that's true. But if the Close Combat would hit my +6 Evasion Gorebyss, which is more probable of occuring, that would OHKO Gorebyss anyways.


So Evasion boosts are very comparable to Defense boosts and may even be inferior to Defense Boosts. But are Defense boosts broken? NO!! We all know that Mewless Baton Pass teams are far from being considered broken teams. Double Team won't change that.

 

[McGrrr]

Double team was undoubtedly broken back in the days of RBY, but since the evasion formula changed for the second generation, I believe it has become increasingly less so. GSC is/was far too defensive for the inclusion of double team to be positive for the metagame, but I believe that there is no objective reason why it should continue to be banned outright.

My argument is simple. I cannot envision a Pokemon for which double team is the optimal choice for any attack slot. And if it is anything less than optimal, how can it be broken? It would be a long term losing option. Of course the only way to find out for sure would be to test it.

Unbanning double team may benefit the popularity of swift clones and haze.

 

[greg3064]

Double Team is less comparable to Defense than it seems. It's probably noteworthy that 1-2 Double Teams does make a huge difference. Two Double Teams is 60%. Honestly, that sucks. NO ONE uses Hypnosis anymore, simply because it really is just luck with that pitiful accuracy.

The most destructive way to picture Double Team is agreeably Baton Pass. Let's say you only want two boosts. Imagine facing a Smeargle that's been Baton Pass two Double Team. Let's not even consider that it might have Agility and a Substitute. It can still use Spore, Belly Drum, Substitute. Assuming you switch out after Spore, you have a 60% of just hitting the Sub that comes up. If you do hit it, the probability of hitting twice consecutively against 60% accuracy is 36%. And then Smeargle can Ingrain and Baton Pass to a defensive booster. It doesn't hurt the Baton Pass chain to have Double Team Baton passed, because if anything, luck will be in their favor.

 

[ViRiD]

What about if you took two players of equal skill and one could use earthquake and one can not how close do you think they would be to 50/50 spread?

Have a nice day.

Of course, assuming perfectly equal skill, and noting the outright power of earthquake, it can be assumed that the one not using it would lose simply because it is the strongest ground move in the game. I'd accept your comparison if double team was the best move you could use in a situation, like earthquake may be.

I agree with Greg that baton passing double teams is a very scary tactic. But then, baton passing any sort of powerful stat boost is scary. Whether you get sweeped, or you get walled, the outcome is the same. The latter is simply more frustrating.

Reliclivity:

When I had mentioned “hax” in my post, I meant in a general way to describe people’s inclination to blaming outside forces. I was not directing that towards evasion, which I believe is a strategic shift of odds in your favor.

You’ve got Haze and Gravity that can directly affect evasion chance, as well as the perfectly accurate moves. These counters were put there for a reason. Allowing any +6 stack of a stat is bad. Double Team will make baton passing huge stat boosts more viable (teams based around this don’t seem very viable), but they won’t overtake the metagame. Yes decisions will have to be made when setting up your moves on a new team, but as Hipmonlee said:

More worries for players = more opportunity for better players to demonstrate their skill.

Assuming I am pinning the average competitive player correctly (I am one so I am basically describing myself) , I would personally want to spend my precious turns for more tangible benefits. I know that when I swords dance, I am going to be hitting a lot harder. There is a visual gratification in dealing noticeably more damage or taking considerably less. I would guess that if I were to test double team, I would be frustrated every time the dice did not roll in my favor and I took an irrecoverable blow to my DT’er and had to switch. 6 turns for a 33% chance to be wasted effort is a bigger risk than I bet most are willing to take.


Apologies to any arguments I missed.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

Smokescreen variant: If the opponent sends out a Pokemon that is threat to you, use Smoke Screen to scare them into switching. Only thing worse than facing a Pokemon with maxed out evasion is facing a Pokemon with maxed out evasion while your accuracy is down. You can also use it to add a layer of safety

The tests I just completed indicate that your target's evasion levels are subtracted from your accuracy levels at the time of the accuracy check. If that number is less than –6, it's treated as –6. Hence, once you have maximum evasion, lowering your opponent's accuracy doesn't reduce their chance to hit you. You could probably further reduce it through other means, though (e.g. BrightPowder, Sand Veil, etc.).