Offensive teams at the moment.

[.Br0ken]

Hello. My name is Psychadelic on the smogon server. Some of you may know me. I used to be a well known player in the game, about a year ago...

For my first post.

Offensive teams have a tremendous edge at the moment in OU. Teams that move away from petty defensive tactics will have far much more success than teams running 1-2 defensive pokemon. Exploiting walls with Life Orb users such as Salamence, Lucario, and Gyarados are devastating against literally everything. What are reasons that defensive pokemon have lost effectiveness over the development of the DP/Platinum era?

Choice Band Scizor is an imminent threat.

Sending out a simple wall, such as Celebi, to counter something like Gyarados(barring Bounce), opens opportunites for powerful U-Turn users like Scizor. Switching Celebi out of for an appropriate counter can be U-Turned on, then smashed by something using Pursuit, or better yet something that can set up. Then you can factor in Stealth Rock, and if something has set up like Lucario using Ice Punch, it can be over in an instant.

Example: Team using 2 walls(Hippowdon and Celebi) vs. Offensive team with no walls(Important pokemon are Lucario/Gyarados).

Gyarados switches in on SR, DDs, Celebi goes out. Player switches to Scizor, Uturns on Hippo switch(Pursuit is another option), and the process repeats with Gyarados.

The offensive player will be in an incredible position and will eventually prevail with Gyarados and Lucario. The defensive player's only likely counter to Lucario is Hippowdon, and after one Swords Dance Close Combat will OHKO it due to U-Turn.

There are not nearly enough counters to a team purely consisting of pokemon that are meant to set up.

By the middle of a match all of the opponent's walls should have some damage on them. Something like Lucario or Salamence will essentially automatically win. As I stated earlier, only 1 turn of set-up is needed versus a team using walls a few turns in.

Running a purely offensive team is purely logical.

One turn is all you will ever want or need. Switch in an appropriate sweeper with good timing and you will have a clean sweep. Synergize these teams by having a plethora of resistances. You are risking losing to an opposing sweeper by running at least 1 defensive pokemon. Don't give your opponent any opportunites.



These are my observations that I am sharing with smogon. Hopefully you gained some insight into current team building.


Thanks.

 

[imperfectluck]

Really? Last I checked, stall is generally more successful at the top of the ladder, simply because it concedes no risks (and some would argue takes no brains to pilot).

 

[Havak]

Really? Last I checked, stall is generally more successful at the top of the ladder, simply because it concedes no risks (and some would argue takes no brains to pilot).

I completely agree with this.

While offensive teams often can overwhelm many opponents, the risk involved through playing such a fragile defence can be your downfall. As soon as you make a wrong move and your opponent can heal up or protect themselves from even boosted attacks, you're not on the front foot anymore and it can be difficult to gain that edge again.

Defensive (or 'stall') teams would have arguably more success due to the risk factor, as IPL pointed out. If you take less risks and your team is generally difficult to wear down, you're more likely to win. It requires less prediction to be more successful with a defensive team (IMO) and in the early-game, they are far better for gaining information on your opponent's team to employ your strategy.

Playing it safe is usually the best idea, but I like taking risks..

 

[Sudo]

Yeah, I agree with imperfectluck that stall is still the dominant strategy, simply because once it sets up hazards, switches are harshly punished - something which frail, full-on offensive teams can't stand up to for long.

Your Gyarados example is rather, uh.. self defeating at best. Gyarados loses 25%+ in those two switch-ins, which leaves it very vulnerable to Celebi, who comes right back in again for free (barring a double switch of course). What an incredible position for the offensive player! lol Bounce.

Your comment about the opponent having "no Lucario counter" is empty theorymon. How do you know that this is the case? Most people would also agree that the notion of using a counter is an artifact of the past, no longer applicable to the current metagame.

I'd consider SD-Scizor to be a larger threat than the Choice Band set. Most other Steel-types wall it silly.

You really have nothing to back up your comments (a high rating on the leaderboard using only offensive teams, excerpts from logs against skilled players for examples of evidence).

 

[Pyromanic]

I'd consider SD-Scizor to be a larger threat than the Choice Band set. Most other Steel-types wall it silly.

The CB set can never be walled (well, not until extreme late game). No intelligent CB scizor user will ever use anything but u-turn under normal circumstances. You shouldn't start BPing until you have eliminated all your opponents switch ins through u-turning. Or you desperately need to revenge kill a +2 +2 salamence.

 

[franky]

Right now I think there is a big change every time in the lead slot for Offensive Teams. I remembered back when everyone ran Bronzong in D/P then the introduction to suicide leads like Azelf and Aerodactyl. After that people resulted to bulky leads while keeping the most common leads in check today. There are still some sweepers that remain on a standard offensive team like SD Lucario or DD Gyarados.

 

[Kijin]

Just from a common sense standpoint, if I switch in something that walls even a set-up "set up Pokemon"'s attacks, that set up is negated as the setup-mon switches out, giving my defensive Pokemon a turn to do pretty much anything barring using an attack that has no effect on the switch-in (fighting attack against Ghost, EQ against Levitate, Thunder Wave against Electivire, etc). Even in the case of your "wall" using an ineffective attack, the stall team still has the advantage of switching in what should be another wall-capable Pokemon against the new attack (or, even better, while your opponent tries to fruitlessly set up again).

The SR example works both ways and, arguably, works in favor of the Stall team more, which is likely to have some recovery options between switches and taking attacks, while the offensive team using LO (as per your example) will be taking both LO and SR damage between switches with seldom an instance of HP recovery.

This is purely theorymon, of course, since I don't have the afforementioned battle logs or leaderboard standings, but just from a strategic standpoint in general, what is Scizor going to do to me with Zapdos in play that isn't going to otherwise get it ~2hko'd while I'm sitting around, Roosting and forcing a switch? At best, I'm faster and it gets a pretty sizable U-Turn off mid-Roost (but lolwhy would I do that?), at worst it stays in and gets 2hkod by Thunderbolt.

I'm apt to agree that an Offensive strategy with greater fluidity (set up over choice items, offensive focus rather than Jack of All Trades hodgepodge) is probably more likely to crack a defensive team, but I would reconsider (if my Magic theorymon has any standing in Pokemon, Aggro-Control>Aggro>Control) the balance between Aggro and Mixed-Aggro teams. This is me just shooting my mouth off at this point, though, so I'll stop here.

 

[iKitsune]

If people actually used things against stall teams that are less well known for annihilating them i imagine stall teams usage would fall and balance would be back in fashion.

My list of these are

MixMence destroys everything in the average stall team if played right, ie your draco meteor hits on what it is supposed to. The likelihood is that even if it only gets 1 or 2 kills it will easily open up space for your other sweepers. DD mence is in a similar position as after you fire blast skarmory /forretress just spam outrage.

One of the most succesful wallbreakers i have also used is MixLO. Crunch Stone Edge Ice Beam Fire Blast. This again plays havoc against stall teams and because it is unexpected has a greater chance of success then even a MixMence though it is slower.

Moving onto CM sweepers. The best being Jirachi, Latias and finally my favourite sweeper in the game CM Mismagius. All of these easily set up on all variants of blissey and can then proceed to sweep stall teams mismagius probably has the best chance. Unless they have another wall ie Cradily or Registeel Celebi can take on Jirachi with perish song to some extent however the former will often be a waste in the current OU metagame.

Other special sweepers such as Gengar, Azelf and Heatran who can threaten to explode on walls (or taunt them) also play havoc with stall teams. Infernape is in a similar boat when running nasty plot although it is more likely to be worn down by toxic spikes and sandstorm.

I urge people that Stall is unnecesarily the most succesful mode of play these threats undermine a lot of what stall is about and if even 1 or 2 of these are used in a team the enemy will be in inescapable peril. By this i mean when stall teams face these threats they will be literally often be unable to play against you as you stat up and proceed to 6-0.

Trickers also work really well against stall for obvious reasons.

This works in the reverse too. Sweepers like SpecsJolteon SD Scizor in the face of their respective walls are laughed at by stall teams and will often be redundant.

As it happens some of the most succesful teams in OU at the moment are relying on a bulky CRO rest talker stat upper set. Tyranitar "Zeromus" and Swampert are the prime examples from of these in recent times and in ubers although different i have succesfully been running a BU Dialga rest talk set as i am sure others to a good degree of success.

Stall is not nearly as hard to break if you invest in some of these examples.

 

[zarator]

iKitsune, of course there are some powerful Mixed Attackers out there to break stall, but in these cases prediction is your best friend.

Things like Mixmence can be handled with just enough care. Most of them are unwilling to unleash Outrage/Brick Breah on the first turn they are out, especially if they come on a Skarmory/Hippowdon. You just need to predict this and switch your Blissey into the incoming Fire Blast/Draco Meteor. Thanks to entry hazards, you just need to force out mixed attackers 2 times out on average and passive damage along with LO recoil will wear them down with little difficulty.

CRO sets are why any serious stall team packs a phazer or - in the last poke situation - a Perish Song user. Same with a lot of other Stat uppers like Jirachi, which cant switch an infinite number of times due to entry hazards taking their toll.

To sum this up, saying offense is the real force of the metagame is a gross understatement. Stall is still a good tactic if you are in the mindset and you have the skill, and most top leaderboard players have laddered with stall teams (at least more players with stall teams than players with pure offense ones)

 

[goofball]

Simple fact. offense is easy and stall is hard. There is little to no thinking required to play offense you hit hard and fast and just trade pokemon KOing each other till one person has no more. I mean really CB Scizor U-turning is the aboslute no think pokemon. It doesn't help the fact that most switchins are SR weak. SR+CB U-turn is at least 40%+ unless you have like skarm and they can send in a counter for the pokemon you sent in from u-turn. Stall makes you think which is something most players cant do ! So, its quite obvious what choice most players would go for.

I'm personally against a full stall team because well my luck is horrible. In my most recent battle using IPL's stall 2/3rd of my team got CH. ._.

 

[Kay [Old]]

Simple fact. offense is easy and stall is hard. There is little to no thinking required to play offense you hit hard and fast and just trade pokemon KOing each other till one person has no more. I mean really CB Scizor U-turning is the aboslute no think pokemon. It doesn't help the fact that most switchins are SR weak. SR+CB U-turn is at least 40%+ unless you have like skarm and they can send in a counter for the pokemon you sent in from u-turn. Stall makes you think which is something most players cant do ! So, its quite obvious what choice most players would go for.

I'm personally against a full stall team because well my luck is horrible. In my most recent battle using IPL's stall 2/3rd of my team got CH. ._.

...............While I would argue that using a stall team is harder than using an offensive team, to argue that using an offensive team requires no strategy is completely idiotic. You cannot simply chuck six sweepers on a team and expect to get anywhere - battling well in the offensive is just as much thinking in the long-term, planning out a strategy against an opponent, and then executing the strategy successfully.

 

[reyscarface]

Well, i kinda agree with goofball about stall except in that Offense is easy to play.

Yeah, it may seem easy on paper to put 6 sweepers and sweep, but the reality is, it requires way more practice than stall to dominate, seeing how you are more succeptible of getting swept.

 

[blasphemy1]

Just from a common sense standpoint, if I switch in something that walls even a set-up "set up Pokemon"'s attacks, that set up is negated as the setup-mon switches out, giving my defensive Pokemon a turn to do pretty much anything barring using an attack that has no effect on the switch-in (fighting attack against Ghost, EQ against Levitate, Thunder Wave against Electivire, etc). Even in the case of your "wall" using an ineffective attack, the stall team still has the advantage of switching in what should be another wall-capable Pokemon against the new attack (or, even better, while your opponent tries to fruitlessly set up again).

The SR example works both ways and, arguably, works in favor of the Stall team more, which is likely to have some recovery options between switches and taking attacks, while the offensive team using LO (as per your example) will be taking both LO and SR damage between switches with seldom an instance of HP recovery.

This is purely theorymon, of course, since I don't have the afforementioned battle logs or leaderboard standings, but just from a strategic standpoint in general, what is Scizor going to do to me with Zapdos in play that isn't going to otherwise get it ~2hko'd while I'm sitting around, Roosting and forcing a switch? At best, I'm faster and it gets a pretty sizable U-Turn off mid-Roost (but lolwhy would I do that?), at worst it stays in and gets 2hkod by Thunderbolt.

I'm apt to agree that an Offensive strategy with greater fluidity (set up over choice items, offensive focus rather than Jack of All Trades hodgepodge) is probably more likely to crack a defensive team, but I would reconsider (if my Magic theorymon has any standing in Pokemon, Aggro-Control>Aggro>Control) the balance between Aggro and Mixed-Aggro teams. This is me just shooting my mouth off at this point, though, so I'll stop here.

First off, your Zapdos vs. Scizor example is flawed. Like previously stated, Scizor is going to be U-Turning most of the game. Zapdos must switch into Scizor, taking 50%+ from SR + U-Turn, then they can send in something faster, notably Latias or ScarfTran, to finish you off with one of their moves, or make you switch and thus the pressure is put back onto you. Of course, we could go back and forth bantering about how stall teams have recovery and generally don't care about residual damage, however I can bring up the point that pokemon like MixNite, Flygon, and certain Substitute special sweepers (Rotom-A, Gengar, Jirachi, etc.) can bust up stall very easily, and they don't care about residual damage very much either-the exception being MixNite, who typically runs Roost and has enough bulk anyways. The difference is offensive teams are putting the pressure on the stall teams, and in any competitive format, the aggressor is typically the winner. Saying that stall is easier to use than offensive teams is ridiculous because bulky teams with CeleTran, Swampert, Zapdos, etc. are considered offensive teams.

 

[MetaNite]

Both offense and stall takes skill to be successful. More so offense. You need to predict every turn you make. One wrong choice and your fragile Lucario will be dead.

Stall also requires prediction, but since you are using much bulkier Pokemon you don't need to worry as much if you make the wrong move. SubCune, Swampert, and Zapdos aren't necessarily stall, they are more bulky offense. Stall teams are generally Blissey, Skarmory, Pokemon with only limited attacking abilities. At least that's pure stall.

I disagree with the OP because stall is everywhere. The top ladders use stall. I don't think you've played recently to know what you are talking about.

 

[blasphemy1]

Both offense and stall takes skill to be successful. More so offense. You need to predict every turn you make. One wrong choice and your fragile Lucario will be dead.

Stall also requires prediction, but since you are using much bulkier Pokemon you don't need to worry as much if you make the wrong move.

I disagree with the OP because stall is everywhere. The top ladders use stall. I don't think you've played recently to know what you are talking about.

A solid offensive team shouldn't rely on switching in a Lucario and possibly dying. This is where payoff comes into play-if Tyranitar comes out against your Latias, should you switch? Obviously, in this case, you should, since Aqua Tail/Earthquake won't do much at all to Latias, but depending on your opponent's playing style, you must weigh the opportunity. If your opponent's team is weaker to Lucario, then you should probably just let Latias die to ensure a free SD. I also disagree because balanced offensive teams should be using double switches, U-Turn, and Baton Pass to put yourself into a favorable position-since you KNOW your team doesn't have the bulk.

 

[kd24]

offense is extremely difficult to play, it is pretty much like playing chess with an opponent, you need to be 2 steps ahead at all times to insure you come out on top.

with offense you need to set your plan into motion (who to sac, who to weaken, who to sweep, who to set up with, ect.) as soon as possible upon seeing your opponents team. If you take too much time, your opponent will simply set his plan up and defeat you. which is why playing offense without a strategy is incredibly easy.

i think stall is extremely easy to play because one wrong move won't spell your doom since most stall teams have leech seed / recovery / wishers / heal bell and your pokemon should be extremely bulky to take hits. stall is easily just using the same strategy (spikes + sr / pressure / tank with hits) every time without changing your gameplan. if you are using obi stall, your goal is to set up secondary damage and then just make the right switch ins.

however with offense, you have no cushiony switch-ins as every member will usually not be as bulky as stall and will usually play a vital role in sweeping. you have to play carefully and make sure nothing on your team is randomly put there, it must have a purpose into succeeding with your strategy.

the reason stall is usually on top of ladder is because of that nice cushion of allowing a few big hits to land here or there without worry but if you want to play a successful offense you need spot on prediction to make it to the top.

edit: in other words, i completely disagree with goofball

 

[panamaxis]

Edit: Okay, reading over your example again I see you mean a balanced team? Sorry about that, I'll just assume it is stall.

I agree with Metanite and IPL, stall is reliable, Also in your example, you completely ignore that the stall player might not leave celebi in on gyarados a second time, going to skarm as you DD with gyara or switch to scizor, which is still a relatively safe move (unless gyara is taunt) as skarmory can take on both. As soon as you let skarmory in on your scizor, you've just let him have a free turn as you are likely to be playing against 24% damage everytime you switch in from SR and spikes alone. The main thing I have trouble understanding you is that you say hippowdon is the scizor counter / check, which is very unlikely on a stall team (I assume you meant stall because celebi and hippowdon) but enough about that.

Stall isn't really: Oh they have their mamoswine out, I'll switch to skarmory, oh now gyarados is out, time to go to celebi, etc. It's not mindless clicking, while I agree it might not take as much prediction as offense, a good stall team will never be great without the user having good prediction skills.

I also agree with some of the points in obis thread: "Defensive / Stall play and why it's the best" (link can be found in the RMT archive), when playing stall, early game you are "safer" because both players don't know the opponents team, one bad prediction will not always cost you a player as you can later recover off the damage (of course in some cases you're going to lose the game because of it).

Stall does have some big disadvantages in some cases though. If I see a hippowdon lead I immeaditely think; Okay, he is likely to have a blissey, forre / skarmory and rotom on his team (not so much with swampert lead). All due to it's lead I have deduced half of his team. This won't always be the case, but usually when you see a hippowdon lead you think stall,am I right? and then you pretty much know: okay, bulky ground, blissey, skarmory / forre, rotom and 2 fillers.

 

[M Dragon]

Both offense and stall takes skill to be successful. More so offense. You need to predict every turn you make. One wrong choice and your fragile Lucario will be dead.

Stall also requires prediction, but since you are using much bulkier Pokemon you don't need to worry as much if you make the wrong move. SubCune, Swampert, and Zapdos aren't necessarily stall, they are more bulky offense. Stall teams are generally Blissey, Skarmory, Pokemon with only limited attacking abilities. At least that's pure stall.

I disagree with the OP because stall is everywhere. The top ladders use stall. I don't think you've played recently to know what you are talking about.

I agree with this. Stall is more reliable than offense, because a single mistake using an offensive team can mean you lose the game. With a stall, a mistake is not that important (but i get bored soon xd, so that's why most of the times i will be using balance).

 

[Thorns]

A mistake with an offensive team does not lose you the game. Let's stop using such hyperbole as 'all offensive teams are full of fragile Pokemon that hit like a truck'. There's a reason the 'bulky offense' archtype exists. It is still possible to make a team full of hard hitters that still take advantage of resistances, bulk etc to win the match. A prime example is TAY's Pride and Prejudice. All of his Pokemon (despite the triple dragon/steel) have resistances they can take advantage of (Kingdra walls most Water types, Magnezone laughs at Steel attacks etc). There is no clear cut definition of 'offense', but I'd say Pride and Prejudice fits the bill.

EDIT: Looks like I forgot to address my initial point. All good teams (not just offense) always have a back up plan in case plan A fails. Let's take for example panamaxis' Suspect team. The aim (I assume, he wasn't clear on that) is to chip away at the opponent's health until they fall to Stealth Rock damage accumulated from repeated switches. But in case he messes up and uses Outrage as a ScarfTran switches in, of course his key player Salamence is dead. However, that monstrous DDGyara is still waiting in the wings. CB Scizor is still ready to pummel stuff. My point is, a player should be able to adapt in the battle and not lose because of a mistake or hax.

 

[Stathakis]

adding to what thorns said, a lot of the best offensive teams have lots of win conditions. in this game of pokemon, it is silly to spend all your time trying to set up one guy. there are just too many choice scarves and too many strong priority moves. so having lots of ways to win is key to being able to be flexible and pummel the most diverse pool of opponents. take a look at my latest rmt (yea, I'm tooting my own horn here.) every single pokemon can sweep pretty much. because of that, even if one guy goes down, I'm still in control and able to win. by having a team of this nature, it is easier to come back from mispredictions and hax, and it also makes it possible to sacrifice mons and win without even having to predict as long as you think correctly.

here are some examples of exemplary offensive teams:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40179
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50644
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44188

 

[Thorns]

Also, if you build a team like Stat's, revenge killing and sacrificial switches suddenly become a lot easier, as the his strategy is plain and simple - win. Offensive teams have that advantage over stall teams (though if anyone knows me I prefer to play two parts offense to one part defence). With a 'all or nothing' approach, you have more freedom I'm choice and you can rest easy knowing that if one Pokemon goes down, that could he beneficial as it lets you get a free switch on another. I believe someone wrote something like 'sacrifice when a Pokemon has done all that it can'.

 

[zocho]

i'm likin the discussion here...as a new player, stall seems really appealing, because it's a lot safer and eases prediction compared to a fast-paced offensive team, where one wrong move and an important poke is iced. but i find stall to be super boring...all you're doing is just setting down entry hazards, using toxic/protect, and just waiting for the other guy to die. no offense (no pun intended) to stall players.

but, since i'm really new, i find my teams having trouble with stall teams. iKitsune (or anyone else reading), what's the best kind of team to counter stall teams? does a more balanced team (with 2-3 defensive/support pokes) or all-out offensive team do better?

 

[-Zer0-]

As in most strategy games it is true that offense is easier than defense, but it's not true in this game.

It requires someting stall doesn't require nearly as much: prediction.

Come on, if you have a good stall team all you do is switch in your phys wall on a phys sweeper and spec on spec, set up your status and entry hazards, and wear them down. It takes very little strategy. Building a team is a bit harder, but there is such a standard now even that isn't quite true.

6 good sweepers used by a player that cant predict for shit will be, yes, shit.

I suppose if you have 6 extremely heavy hitters you can beat teams without so much prediction, but that is certainly not usual.

 

[Darkmalice]

I agree with this. Stall is more reliable than offense, because a single mistake using an offensive team can mean you lose the game. With a stall, a mistake is not that important (but i get bored soon xd, so that's why most of the times i will be using balance).

I'd argue that a stall team is more risky than an offensive team. If Blissey falls to a critical hit, or being trapped by the ever common CB Scizor or Tyranitar, the stall team is significantly weaker against Special attackers. Stall teams only have one Pokemon on their team to deal with specific threats, and that's due to the raw power of those threats. For example, having Tentacruel for Mixape, having Hippowdon for Tyranitar. As soon as that Pokemon goes, the team is wide open for a sweep by that threat.

If an offensive team loses a sweeper, they have other sweepers to take it's place. That's better than losing your team's only counter against one of the most frequently used Pokemon.

Finally, there are certain problems that stall teams face:

• Trick, because almost every stall Pokemon has Leftovers or Shed Shell.
• Baton Pass chains. Sure, stall teams have Roar, but what happens if Smeargle gets that Ingrain set up? Don't mention Perish Song Celebi, because it can create massive Scizor problems, and Perish Song + HP Fire means you're giving up both Leech Seed and Thunderwave support.
• Hax. This had to be said. With stall teams creating battles that last a long time, critical hits and side-effects like Flamethrower's Burn are inevitable. Which teams are more likely to benefit from this hax? Many moves used by stall teams don't have elements of hax involved e.g. Recover, whilst most moves used by offensive teams do. A Def drop on Swampert that switches in on CB Tyranitar's Crunch will lead to the mudfish' demise.

 

[LoveDensity]

• Hax. This had to be said. With stall teams creating battles that last a long time, critical hits and side-effects like Flamethrower's Burn are inevitable. Which teams are more likely to benefit from this hax? Many moves used by stall teams don't have elements of hax involved e.g. Recover, whilst most moves used by offensive teams do. A Def drop on Swampert that switches in on CB Tyranitar's Crunch will lead to the mudfish' demise.

In general, everyone is ruined by hax. Like if Lucario comes in to Scarf Gengar's Shadow ball and expects it to live/force a switch. If a crit happens or Sp.Def drop happens, there goes down a nice sweeper or forces another switch for Shadow Ball to hit.

Probably bad example.

I also like to comment that it is so hard to get an Ingrain with Smeargle these days.