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np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)

pi face said:
where's Wobbuffet?
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smogon never branded wobbuffet a suspect, colin dropped it into the standard metagame on the official server in february of 2008 and we didnt have our own server till july of that year. while dxs was similarly "included" in the standard metagame in march of 2009, there is no disagreement that it was and is probably a suspect, especially given its initial voting as OU after it'd been played with for months (unlike wobby's which was landslide uber anyway)

Hocotate said:
Are we going to have to write six paragraphs at the end of this?
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as of right now, we are probably going to mandate a paragraph for at least skymin though

Erazor said:
I'm pretty sure stage 3 was meant to test all the suspects together in the actual standard metagame, not test all the suspects in a ridiculously dragon and steel centralized metagame where every team is crammed with suspects.
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cool just how sure are you about that
 
lol you sure about that
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Sorry, what's that supposed to mean?

I was sure that the idea behind stage 3 was to see the effect of our suspects on the "true" metagame after they had been identified as uber or OU individually. But the current metagame doesn't seem to facilitate this process - it's ridiculously revolving around the Dragons - and by extension, the steels.

Please tell me what I'm not understanding here.

edit: nevermind, RBG was kind enough to explain it to me.
 
I think the point is that this is what the standard metagame becomes when we introduce all 6 suspects (or atleast until it stabilises a bit).
 
Since there is no firm rating requirement for this test, and people have mentioned SEXP as the "only" requirement -- I want to remind everyone of something that should be obvious:

Play to win.

The SEXP statistics DO take into account how well players perform. So, if anyone thinks they can just spam a team of 6 suspects, lose every match, and still get voting rights -- you are wasting your time.

Don't get me wrong, it may very well be possible that a team loaded full of suspects is the ONLY way to win in Stage 3. Obviously, every one of these suspects is a total badass -- otherwise they wouldn't be suspects. So, feel free to play as many of them as you like. In fact, I encourage you to play all of them a lot. But, that does not mean that good team building and battle strategy has been thrown out the window for this test.

I really shouldn't have to remind players to try to win, but there's always a few dumbasses in the group that need to be reminded of the obvious...
 
Although this metagame is hectic, i hope it will settle down soon. Right now its all chaos but i do love that lots of regular OU's are gone.

Ou's that i haven't seen
Blissey
heatran
Salamence
Jolteon
FLygon
Swampert
Rotom-A
Celebi
Gyarados-ive only seen mine
Infernape
Kingdra

There are a lot more but those are really common pokes in Standard. Also this metagame destroys most stall. Haven't seen a proper stall yet that functions well
 
The only standard OUs I see on a regular basis are Scizor (it works VERY well against the suspects bar Manaphy and steel), Heatran (to take out steels most likely, and it's a steel itself), Metagross (steel), Tyranitar (counters the three psychics in suspect), Jirachi (steel), Bronzong (steel), Vaporeon (Wish support and cover for armies of steels), and some Forretress (Steel) and Skarmory (steel). All the non-steel walls are nowhere to be seen (Blissey, Hippowdon, Swampert, et cetera), and as far as offensive pokes go there are some Lucario, Machamp and Infernape running about to take out steels, and some odd Mamoswine and Weavils to take out dragons (and skymin). That's about it.

It's like what I've heard of RBY metagame except it's slightly better with two types dominating and SOME countermeasures to them as oposed to none.
 
I feel so horribly out my league here.

Anyway, I once considered DxS to be a decent candidate for OU. I have now completely changed my mind. Most of my matches have come down to Deo speed ties, and getting completely cleaned by a late game DxS. Scizor used to do alright, but now all DxS seem to carry Fire Punch. I tried a rather specialised Macho Brace Gyrozong set, and it worked decently, but more and more people are coming to expect it now, and once its job is done, it's useless anyway.

Garchomp is underwhelming, to be frank. YacheChomp gets mutilated by the other Suspects, and as far as I can see, YacheChomp usage has basically stopped. Even if it does get a kill, Scizor revenges it with ease. What I'm seeing far more than YacheChomp is ScarfChomp, which, while good, isn't spectacular. I stand by my original thoughts on Garchomp being OU.

Haven't seen a Manaphy, and haven't yet used a Manaphy, so I can't really comment. Then again, the very fact I haven't seen one says a lot.

Latias is very much an inferior Latios in this metagame, and I don't see it unless someone is trying the double Lati trick where they take out the Lati counter with Latias then proceed to cause massive damage with Latios. That said, Latios is absolutely formidable in said combo, and I'd be unsure as to my position on Latios.

Skymin I oddly don't see much, despite everyone else in this thread seemingly fighting it all the time. I'd want to get some more experience with it before commenting.

This metagame reminds me very strongly of RBY, incidentally.
 
I have to say, a specially defensive Bronzong is possibly the single best Pokemon in this metagame. It gets free switchins to so many of the suspects - Latios, Latias, Shaymin-S, Garchomp, Deoxys - and can just sit there firing off Hypnosis until it hits, set up Stealth Rock reliably, do big damage to these speed demons with Gyro Ball, and once it's had its fun, just Explode.

As expected, the start of the test has been really hectic, with people playing with teams loaded with suspects just to reacquaint themselves. Scarf Chomp is everywhere as well, since Yache Chomp is severely hindered by the presence of Lati@s and Shaymin-S, and I've found it to be quite manageable 80% of the time. Of course it's a great asset to many teams, but my early opinion of it is leaning towards OU. Scarf Latios has been quite a surprise as well, and carries on the tradition of simply slapping a scarf on the fastest Dragon in the tier and revenging the metagame. I haven't seen many Latias though, but I'm guessing that's because people want to use the previously-banned suspects first.

With all the choiced Dragon attacks flying around, Agility Metagross has proven to work excellently, giving a late game sweeper as well as a good check to Deoxys. Deoxys is pretty omnipresent too, and every lead that I've faced so far has either been a Deoxys, a Metagross, or a Deoxys antilead such as scarf Shaymin or scarf Azelf.

It's pretty hectic, and I'm having a hard time drawing any reasonable conclusions from the testing so far, but hopefully it will settle down soon.
 
Bronzong is definately an amazing pokemon at the moment, although bulky steels in general are great for coming in on all the choiced dragon attacks. The trapper Metagross and Scizor sets in particular are incredibly useful for their ability to Pursuit Latios, as well as countering Skymin reasonably well.

Manaphy and Latias are both pretty underwhelming so far. Manaphy can be dealt with easily by Skymin, who is everywhere, and Latias is generally getting overshadowed by Latios.

Skymin and Garchomp are both pretty good and popular, but far from uber.

Latios and Deoxys are easily standing out as the two most problematic pokemon in the metagame. Latios is incredibly hard to switch into, although people seem to be starting to run more counters now, so it's not really running rampant. The late-game cleaner Deoxys set is a nightmare to deal with though, it outspeeds pretty much the entire metagame except scarf Skymin, and there's more or less nothing you can do to stop it once you've been weakened enough (barring Sucker Punch :x), and the amount of games that come down to a Deoxys speed tie is pretty ridiculous.
 
@Jumpman
hmm thanks for the answer. I didn't exactly remember that smogon hadn't put Wobbie as a suspect. I just lurked at that time :P (although I remember the bold voting process here about it, but whatever).

@Suspect test
Deoxys is obviously broken. Every lead is either a) Deoxys or b) Metagross/Scizor to beat them. No exceptions. Dual Screens are also everywhere. Speaking about that...

Haban Berry Garchomp is awesome behind screens. Light Screen is like a pseudo Yache Berry AND you can defend yourself against all those powerful Draco Meteor/Outrage with Haban in this dragon-heavy metagame and kill them back right away. A set like Outrage/EQ/SD/Stone Edge with a Bronzong bait, which most of the time isn't even needed since it likes to explode (and also a Skarmory bait, but i've only seen one which failed miserably at doing anything lol). This way you can kill Gyarados/Salamence without even having to lock yourself and in. Scizor's BP also won't touch you behind Reflect.
SubChomp with Sandstream support also seems very interesting (since then you can't predict his SD or EQ to bring Latios for example, also Sand Veil), but I have yet to test that.

Latios just destroys everything in its path with Specs/LO Draco Meteor. You don't even need to predict. Not even a little.

Shaymin has been very effective, especially the Scarf one. Offensive teams can just hope to revenge kill him, but that's almost impossible with his high speed and coverage. One flinch means Latios loses. HP ice just destroys Scarf Chomp. Earth Power for Agility Metagross and the like, and Seed Flare for everything else.

Haven't seen any Manaphy or Latias, at all...

even though Salamence isn't a suspect, i haven't seen almost any. Weird since it is the most fearsome pokemon in standard, at least for me... I think I can see why, though, as all suspects tie at minimum with him, not to mention all the fucking steels everywhere.
 
After playing a few matches in the suspect ladder, I came to the quick conclusion running an offensive based team meant I was basically trading pokemon KOs with my opponent. So, at the time Day1 suspect is a very fast paced metagame everything hits hard and everything falls in 2-3 hits.

I decide to run a stall team in suspect to see how well the team would function. It seems to be doing pretty well as I(Tears In Rain) am currently within the top15 of the suspectladder. It works pretty well in countering the suspect metagame but I expect it to lose effectiveness once the suspect metagame evolves a bit more. Another issue is fitting a suspect into my stall team it just doesn't seem viable and talking with philip last night he made me notice the fact that I'm using 4 steels!

As for the suspects, I expected Garchomp to be a bit more underwhelming with the Lati@s twins both allowed. However, it is still quite common in any suspect team. Deoxys-s has primarily seen in the Lead role a lot more than i expected than the sweeper. Both lati@s are seen running scarf something I didn't predict when I first looked at stage3. Shaymin-S and Manaphy has also been rather underwhelming but I haven't seen/faced one used effectively yet.

iuno just random shit gonna post every week???? suspect is boring...... -____- trading KOs seems to be the norm >_>
 
This Metagame is just plain insane, I have been using all the suspects wit Scizor and Tyranitar and they have worked great .

Garchomp: IMO he is not as threatening as he used to be but is still a bitch to take down (scarf versions)

Latios in the metagame is flat out broken, I am a firm believer of Latios being OU but in a metagame with Garchomp, Deoxys E, Skymin and friends he is too strong.

Have not seen a single Latias.

Have not seen a single Skymin.

Hav not seen a single Manaphy

Deoxys E is still as deadly as ever.

IMO the things that make this metagame cheap is Latios, Garchomp and Deoxys E, though if both were to go along with Manaphy then Latios will not be that bad.
 
Use Empoleon more.

It switches into Choice Latis twins with ease (watch out for Thunderbolt, and obviously, Calm Mind), doesn't mind taking a Choice Band Dragon Claw from Garchomp, or Outrage in a pinch. It loves Bullet Punch from Scizor, or any Choiced Skymin spamming Air Slash (watch out for any Skymin not stuck in Air Slash, obviously). It requires prediction to use, but with all the Choiced Pokemon now, everything requires prediction.

As for other suspects:

Shaymin-S:
Used: Yes
Shaymin is a beast, and I don't find it as horribly frail as some make it out to be. SubSeeding works wonders in this metagame, although you must be wary of all the Scarf sets around. Aside from my use of SubSeeding, I've seen Choice Scarf, and Life Orb variants. Life Orb, in my opinion, being the most straight up deadly. SubSeeding works, but must be setup for it. Choice is the least effective in my opinion.

Garchomp
Used : Yes
Scarf is in. And it will probably remain in now that Garchomp is not the 'fastest Dragon in OU'. Earthquake is a lot more risky now with all the floating Dragons. One wrong move matters more than ever before. With Garchomp rarely having time to setup Sword Dance, and then not outspeed a lot before the rare SubSalac et, he is not 'quite' as threatening. Every Garchomp, aside from one all out attack, I've seen thus far has been Choice Scarf. I think Latias and Garchomp to co-exist in the same tier, I'm not too sure about..

Latios
Used: Yes
Very powerful, indeed. Not a lot enjoys taking a Specs Draco Meteor to the face (hello, Empoleon..). And those that can take it are defeated by Thunderbolt/Surf.. or in some cases, Grass Knot depending on the set. He is somewhat kept in check by revenge killers, and being weak to Pursuit, but the extra power over his sister is obvious. And deadly.

Manaphy
Used : No
The few I've seen have not performed well. One was a Tail Glow set of some sort, but died to Scizor U-Turn+Skymin. The other tried to Energy Ball Empoleon to death, which did not work out in its favor. I thought Manaphy was OU before, and this test will do little to change it. Manaphy IS very powerful, but this is not a favorable environment for it to shine.

Latias
Used : No
With the hyper pace of this metagame, I don't think Latias has much of a use, unless you're trying to pull off the ol' Double Special Dragon. But I yet to see one of her, so I can't comment.

Deoxys-S
Used : No
The few leads I've seen have been annoying as always. My Scizor is especially meant to take care of it, but that's not always the case. Deoxys-S ability to not have to suicide in the beginning of a match, setting up screens multiple times is a huge pesk. I've yet to see someone try it as a late game sweeper, but I've no doubt it cleans up like nothing else.

Other Pokemon:

Scizor is a handy lead for me right now. He can take care of most Deoxys with Brick Break to shatter the Screens and U-Turn, or 2 Bullet Punches to take care of him once and for all. On a Screener set who does not invest in Attack (assuming speed, and HPs), Scizor Max HP Scizor has no issue surviving Fire Punch.

Tyranitar with a lot of Special Defense works wonders right now. With everything sporting Choice items, he easily finds time to switch in and crush everything into KO range for the rest of the team.

And as mentioned, Empoleon is a great Pokemon for this game. It threats all the Dragons with Ice Beam, and makes it hard for this very offensive metagame to switch in on three attack and Roar.
 
I find that SubSalac Garchomp is the best set for him right now, and only Scarf Garchomp can actually do well as well.
 
ap13095 said:
I find that SubSalac Garchomp is the best set for him right now, and only Scarf Garchomp can actually do well as well.
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What about ChainChomp? The ability to nail a Lati/ScarfChomp switchin with Draco Meteor or a Skymin/Steel Switchin with Fire Blast seems pretty powerful, and it still retains SD-Quake power for latergame sweeping.
 
The Draco Meteor part of Chain Chomp doens't work so well. I have hardly ever seen any stuff like Hippowdon and Donphan (lol Donphan) and Swampert to come in and take the meteor. Sure it murders the Latis who expect EQ but then again you could've done it with Dragon Claw or something, which hits weaker defense and is 100% accurate, plus you can spam it all day long if you want.

Fire Blast is a nice Bronzong deterrent though.
 
My impressions:

Garchomp is much more manageable in the metagame with the combination of priority and faster Dragons. Definitely much less of a threat than in the original DP days.

Stall is as viable as ever. People that dismiss stall on the ladder obviously do not have any clue as to what the suspects are and are capable of. Simply glancing at the list shows that SkarmBliss is perfectly capable of walling them all (barring Deoxys-S). Add some support Pokemon and you basically got a solid anti-metagame team. Its really easy to stall out the suspects, and I'm surprised at how many offensive teams there are in relation to stall teams.

Although this metagame is indeed unpolished at the moment, I think it will definitely improve within the coming weeks. Everyone is anxious to try out the old banned Pokemon, and there's an urge to abuse them as much as possible. In due time stuff will settle down, so stop worrying about it. Just enjoy using Garchomp again!
 
I never thought I'd say this but Blissey is really, really good in this metagame on a non-stall team. It walls all the suspects except for Garchomp (whom can't KO it without a Swords Dance, Outrage does like 63% and non Yache gets stroked by Ice Beam and oh SubSeed Gaymin beats it if you switch in on Sub). Because Latios and Deoxys are such a problem to switch into Blissey solves that and can just spam Thunder Waves everywhere which most of the metagame currently hates being so speed based with all the scarfs and stuff.

Most of my losses have been because of Sand Viel and Skymin, sigh comes with haxy pokemon, just sucks when you play good and you lose to something beyond your control haha :).
 
Twist of Fate said:
Stall is as viable as ever. People that dismiss stall on the ladder obviously do not have any clue as to what the suspects are and are capable of. Simply glancing at the list shows that SkarmBliss is perfectly capable of walling them all (barring Deoxys-S). Add some support Pokemon and you basically got a solid anti-metagame team. Its really easy to stall out the suspects, and I'm surprised at how many offensive teams there are in relation to stall teams.
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This. Because everybody kept talking about how stall is impossible in this meta, I decided to go ahead and make a stall team. Nobody's protecting their rocks, everybody's using choice items, nobody's spinning; it's a stall team's dream. I've only lost two matches w/ my stall, and one was because I forgot to put an item on two of my pokes <_<. Stall is definitely do-able, but you can't just use classic stall teams like Obi Stall. You have to cater it to this environment, which I'm currently doing.

Also, if these suspects all go Uber after Stage 3 is done (and from the looks of it, a lot will), I would like to suggest maybe making a competitive Limbo tier. This metagame is very different from anything we've had before, and is quite fun in it's own way. I would love to be able to play this from time to time when I get bored of OU and whatnot. Just as suggestion ^_^
 
Twist of Fate said:
Stall is as viable as ever. People that dismiss stall on the ladder obviously do not have any clue as to what the suspects are and are capable of. Simply glancing at the list shows that SkarmBliss is perfectly capable of walling them all (barring Deoxys-S). Add some support Pokemon and you basically got a solid anti-metagame team. Its really easy to stall out the suspects, and I'm surprised at how many offensive teams there are in relation to stall teams.
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On the offensive side, none of the suspects are anything new. The most concerning one is Deoxys-S. Not the Dual Screen form, but the Spiker. It's frighening how well that thing works in conjunction with the now ubiquitous Rotom forms to set up Spikes and spin block. Maybe I suck as a team builder, but do you have any advice in how a stall team can beat this combination? Even a Spiritomb gets raped by the Rest-talk variant, especially with spikes blasting it on the switch-in.

I understand that stall has always been a highly viable strategy even when Deoxys-S and Garchomp were OU, but back then Rotom didn't exist and the bulky ghosts Dusknoir and Spiritomb weren't exactly in a vogue on offensive teams. And Deoxys-S was used primarily as a Dual Screen set up (at least that was what made it uber, right?).

I'm thinking of putting Payback on Forretress just for the Rotom forms.
 
OK after more playing around I think that Deoxys E is one of the most annoying suspects out there.

Tyranitar is surprisingly good in this ladder, with dual screens up and stuff it makes things easier for him to sweep teams with ease, I am able to pull off two DDs 70% of the time.

In a way this is quite fun, though all suspects getting voted to uber would be..........depressing for me.
 
Philip7086 said:
Also, if these suspects all go Uber after Stage 3 is done (and from the looks of it, a lot will)
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What makes you think that a lot of the suspects will go to uber? Is it because the metagame isn't the same, or that it's currently being centered around the suspects?

Because if so, the metagame is obviously going to change with 6 very powerful pokemon (potential top 10 OU pokemon) being put into it, and that is inevitable. If not, oops.

Personally, I think the only suspects that currently have a chance a being uber are Deoxys-S and possibly Latios.
 
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