Yea but HO is a hell of a lot harder to play than say bulky offense.
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Heavy Offense
- Thread starter The SPrinkLer
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Yea but HO is a hell of a lot harder to play than say bulky offense.
It actually isn't hard to play. You set up SR, Taunt the opposing lead and look what's able to set up. Standard scenario - my Aero faces Swampert. I taunt while he IB's, I SR and die. Gyara comes in and set's up, the opponent has to switch out. Commonly the opposing switch in is something like Latias, Metagross or opposing Gyaras who can't take a hit. You're just trying to mash them. Most of the time your long-term planning is even eased by opponents switching Gliscor into DD-AquaTail-Tar. gg by luce. Bulky Offense makes it harder to play defensive teams, as you lack the set-up power to wreck through stuff, as well as playing very offensive teams as you only have "checks" which are easily outplayed if you don't play well.
HO if played correctly isn't hard to play (sounds weird, but thats the way it works). Set up Sweeper A (should be an earlygame sweeper like Gyara, DDMence or something like that), look what he swept/weakened and look what can abuse it. That's it.
On another note: all those UU teams in here aren't really heavily offensive. Looking at SDS "HO-UU team", I immediately see how opposing set-up sweepers dismantle it (it's not you, it's just an example). Imagine DD-Feraligatr setting up on Aggron Aqua Tail (or even Arcanine). The only way of getting out of this is firing off Fake Outs and in the meanwhile lose one or two mons. And thats how he has to handle many set up mons. I don't say SDS' team is bad (it's by far not), it's just not the kind of team I'd call HO (plus his team is only an example). Your team rather looks like a standard offensive team with a few powerful choicers and wall-breaking set-up sweepers (but still, no criticism, don't get this wrong).
HO if played correctly isn't hard to play (sounds weird, but thats the way it works). Set up Sweeper A (should be an earlygame sweeper like Gyara, DDMence or something like that), look what he swept/weakened and look what can abuse it. That's it.
On another note: all those UU teams in here aren't really heavily offensive. Looking at SDS "HO-UU team", I immediately see how opposing set-up sweepers dismantle it (it's not you, it's just an example). Imagine DD-Feraligatr setting up on Aggron Aqua Tail (or even Arcanine). The only way of getting out of this is firing off Fake Outs and in the meanwhile lose one or two mons. And thats how he has to handle many set up mons. I don't say SDS' team is bad (it's by far not), it's just not the kind of team I'd call HO (plus his team is only an example). Your team rather looks like a standard offensive team with a few powerful choicers and wall-breaking set-up sweepers (but still, no criticism, don't get this wrong).
Jynx does that better :<...
How?
I never played HO, so I wanted to try it out. And I need to say one thing - I love it ;). It's really fun to play and destroying opponent with raw power is something, which feels better then win with stalling out opponent, at least for me. I'm running quite standard OU Heavy Offense with Rock Polish Camerupt in place of Infernape. I'm testing right now SD Breelom, just to see if it's worth a shot to try it in HO teams. Camerupt works surprisingly well, as it has good typing, solid bulk and it's immune to both burn and paralysis, which is good bonus. It's a bit slow, even after Rock Polish, but only Scarf Starmie and Scarf Latias abuse water attacks and outspeed it, so it's not that bad. Also this guy works as bulky waters and Heatran bait (Explosion is nice), helping Metagross and Gyarados have their fun.
And could someone post here Ubers standard HO Team ? Well, probably it's based around Rayquaza/Groudon/Lucario, but I would like to see it anyway ;).
And could someone post here Ubers standard HO Team ? Well, probably it's based around Rayquaza/Groudon/Lucario, but I would like to see it anyway ;).
this is not true in any way at all what so ever. some people can't stall for shit and can only use offensive teams whereas others doesn't know life outside a certain theme
You realise if latias happens to be scarfed you just lost the game. If they have scarf rotom (who wouldn't be suprising as you can see it doesn't have lefties) you are in bad shape because nobody on the team wants to come in on an attack and set up because then they have no hp left. So what do you do lose - Gyrados again? I don't see how 4 sweepers is beating 6 pokemon two of which are scarf rotom + swampert.
Obviously the above team is a bad match-up but I think you need a better plan versus swampert leads. At least with zelf you get a screen or two and maybe zelf survives to set up a screen later. Relatedly i think people should focus more on keeping azelf alive so they can use it as death fodder or set up a screen mid-game. This is especially important to help set up lucario.
Jynx doesn't have three immunities to switch into(let alone one), and its lower base speed makes a load of difference. While Jynx does have a better STAB in Ice Beam, it gains some fairly common weaknesses in fire and rock, along with steel. It's defense makes Mismagius look much more appealing, despite it still being low. Overall, I would give the edge to Mismagius, although Jynx can definitely mess some shit up with the higher special attack, better STAB, and dual STAB(Psychic messes up Lanturn and Poliwrath pretty badly, while Mismagius still loses to Registeel w/Thunder Wave + Iron Head).
What makes it 'harder' to play?
Also, what makes this any different than 'suicide offense'? Are they just synonyms? They seem like the same thing to me...
Ubers HO is often based on the Deoxys-A/Wobbuffet combo, which is meant to lure in and kill of scarfers. Then, the user employs something like Darkrai or Rayquaza to attempt a sweep. I can make an HO team, but there is no standard team, as simply putting together 5 setup sweepers won't work extremely well in Ubers due to the fact that there is way less synergy between them than there is between setup sweepers in standard like Metagross and Salamence.
The user Anachronism had a really great HO team that deviated from the mold. Offhand, it had a CM Latios, CM Mewtwo (to overload Blissey with Taunt) NP Darkrai, and Rayquaza, but I've forgotten the exact details.
another standard type of heavy offense team in ubers is Deoxys-e/wobb/SDray/RPgroudon/ and some other hard hitting pokemon, usually with a choice scarf pokemon thrown in.
These are getting outdated though, as the rise of deoxys-a leads and less choice kyogre are making them harder to set up
These are getting outdated though, as the rise of deoxys-a leads and less choice kyogre are making them harder to set up
Agreeing with mtr12 in that almost all Uber HO revolves around using Deoxys for spikes, and Wobbuffett to revenge scarfers that could scare the other pokemon. From there, you have sweepers like NP Darkrai, SD/DD Ray, RP Groudon, CM Latias, and even Mix Palkia, ready to sweep an opponents team in a minutes notice. As long as you can find the opponents scarfer and abuse Wobbuffet, you will have an easy time sweeping.
I have no probs with ScarfTom/Latias as it just means a free set up for DDTar or late game for RP-Torterra. I obvoiusly lost games to teams of 6 Scarfers who could switch in on my mons with impunity, but really, those teams are rare as they lose to everything else. The main reason for me to use Aero is to outpace other Azelfs. If you run Azelf you risk being outpaced by opposing Zelfs and Aeros and get Taunted. Good luck then, this will be pretty damn hard. Double Screens make up for this, I guess it's preferance.
Ok try not to turn this thread into a shitfest please. It's hard due to the fact that it requires long term thinking. It may sound simple, but have you actually ever used it to its fullest extent?
Anachronism's team is all-special, deoxys-a lead, cm latios, cm darkrai, cm mewtwo, np darkrai, and wobb. Deoxys-a and even mewtwo and darkrai can lure in scarfers that can then be revenged with wobb allowing something else to sweep. Blissey gets really overloaded thanks to Wobb's encore/safeguard, kyogre's superpowered surfs, Latios's superpowered dragon pulses, Mewtwo's boosted aura spheres, and Darkrai's sleep/boosted dark pulses. You get a ton of set-up opportunities too thanks to Kyogre and Latios's bulk, Mewtwo's taunt, dark void, and of course Wobbuffet. The only real problem the team has is scizor due to the 5 bug weaks and the lack of physical bulk. That core of Wobb/Deoxys/Darkrai/Mewtwo is what makes the team work though, two pokemon to eliminate scarfers and then two sweepers that a lot of people rely on scarfers to stop
Most noobs run HO, if that's what you mean, Goof.
But it only reaches its true potential with a good player.
Predictions, and more than that - long-term thinking - are crucial. Sacrifices and resistances are equally important, and ratchet up the pressure - your opponent's Milotic could either take out your weak (~35%) Moltres with Surf, or it could outpredict and try to hit your Leafeon hard. You need intimate knowledge and guesswork to form a picture of the opposition, and figure out who you need to keep safe.
For example, I'll give a scenario I was in recently.
I have a 30% Honchkrow and an 80% Swellow left, he has a 50% Ambipom and an unrevealed Pokémon. Now, in most scenarios, a player in my situation would just sacrifice Krow to bring in my already burned Swellow, and likely take out both remaining Pokémon. But a smart player in his place would sacrifice something else afterwards, and bring in Pom to finish things off. So, my choice is clear.
At this point I realize that I have the game in the bag.
So my opponent was smart after all, Blaziken easily beats both with Vacuum Wave now, and Krow's Sucker Punch won't do enough. But this brings me to another point: In HO, more than stall or balance, your Pokémon need to be specifically tailored to take out certain threats - you can't rely on wearing down threats, you need to have something that can stop it.
Again, the concept of sacrifice.
There you go.
But it only reaches its true potential with a good player.
Predictions, and more than that - long-term thinking - are crucial. Sacrifices and resistances are equally important, and ratchet up the pressure - your opponent's Milotic could either take out your weak (~35%) Moltres with Surf, or it could outpredict and try to hit your Leafeon hard. You need intimate knowledge and guesswork to form a picture of the opposition, and figure out who you need to keep safe.
For example, I'll give a scenario I was in recently.
I have a 30% Honchkrow and an 80% Swellow left, he has a 50% Ambipom and an unrevealed Pokémon. Now, in most scenarios, a player in my situation would just sacrifice Krow to bring in my already burned Swellow, and likely take out both remaining Pokémon. But a smart player in his place would sacrifice something else afterwards, and bring in Pom to finish things off. So, my choice is clear.
At this point I realize that I have the game in the bag.
So my opponent was smart after all, Blaziken easily beats both with Vacuum Wave now, and Krow's Sucker Punch won't do enough. But this brings me to another point: In HO, more than stall or balance, your Pokémon need to be specifically tailored to take out certain threats - you can't rely on wearing down threats, you need to have something that can stop it.
Again, the concept of sacrifice.
There you go.
I don't get your example both players made the "smart logical" play there. (excluding the fake out but that can be up for debate) There was nothing to learn from that example. If players aren't making those type of moves throughout the game they're pretty terrible to begin with.
Also, I standby my statement HO is nothing but having 4-5 sweepers hitting as hard as they can and hoping by the 4th or 5th sweeper they ran out of defensive pkmn/counters/checks to stop you. It literally takes no thinking skills all you need is basic pokemon knowledge, like I said you have to be a complete idiot to fail.
Also, I standby my statement HO is nothing but having 4-5 sweepers hitting as hard as they can and hoping by the 4th or 5th sweeper they ran out of defensive pkmn/counters/checks to stop you. It literally takes no thinking skills all you need is basic pokemon knowledge, like I said you have to be a complete idiot to fail.
If you play like this, you're going to fail. I've played so many people using these ho teams recently and they all suck at them. They just bring in one sweeper after another and try to set up and you have to put more thought into it that. I think it's hard to catalog the types of decisions that distinguish a mediocre player from a great player, but I assure you there's more to it than just mindless sweeping
Really? Because I played with and against these type of teams myself. I myself had success with it at a decent rate generally. I find that it is truly just mindless attacking your opponent till he no longer has the ability to defend against you. In all my experience that was generally what happened in the battles.
PS. "Heavy offense" teams been around since the beginning of DP.
PS. "Heavy offense" teams been around since the beginning of DP.
If you don't agree with goofballs statements then you must have little to no experience with HO or you're just way too biased.
I would like someone to show me examples of HO not being;
"Send in X sweeper"
"Use X stat booster"
"Use X STAB attack"
There's no more to these teams than switching in a sweeper, boosting your attack and or speed then attacking until that Pokemon dies. There is no prediction involved in these teams and no thought is required to win with them.
I would like someone to show me examples of HO not being;
"Send in X sweeper"
"Use X stat booster"
"Use X STAB attack"
There's no more to these teams than switching in a sweeper, boosting your attack and or speed then attacking until that Pokemon dies. There is no prediction involved in these teams and no thought is required to win with them.
This is pretty much the art of ho. Weaken, weaken, weaken. It doesn't require that much prediction.
I'm not pretending I know more then goof because I don't. But if the scarfer is faster you haven't weakened anything.
Say you have a gyrados. You DD as they switch to Latias. If Latias isn't scarfed LO Dos usually Ko's so you'd want to stay in. If it is you are down a gyrados. They might have brought in Latias to kill you or they might have been predicting you to use waterfall tgo soften rotom You can't really know.
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