np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[SlimMan]

On a nap, you mean, SWITCHED OUT!!?!?!?!?!?! ZOMG! Yeah, T-wave from an above health Nat cripples it, but that doesn't make it a counter, since any slow poke can be switched in to take it. Nat just can't hold up to the power of repeated Hydro Pumps or HP Fighting when switching in, and it needs to be at at least 0% health to take 2 HP Fightings or Hydro Pump

1) ZOMG! KINGDRA MUST'VE GOTTEN SIMPLE! Because apparently it can get 2 DD's on a single switch now. Amazing.

2) Kingdra cannot handle 2 Power Whips, even with 0 Atk EVs. Which means that if Nattorei gets in for free, it kills Kingdra before Kingdra kills it.

3) At least 0% health? That means it's dead lol.

4) Since Kingdra beats Nattorei (if it switches in on a Hydro Pump), then why switch it in? Kingdra cannot set up if you straight-up attack, and will be forced to kill whatever you have in. Then you bring in Nattorei for free and KO with Power Whip. That's certainly better than having Nattorei die and getting swept.

 

[masterful]

1) ZOMG! KINGDRA MUST'VE GOTTEN SIMPLE! Because apparently it can get 2 DD's on a single switch now. Amazing.

2) Kingdra cannot handle 2 Power Whips, even with 0 Atk EVs. Which means that if Nattorei gets in for free, it kills Kingdra before Kingdra kills it.

3) At least 0% health? That means it's dead lol.

4) Since Kingdra beats Nattorei (if it switches in on a Hydro Pump), then why switch it in? Kingdra cannot set up if you straight-up attack, and will be forced to kill whatever you have in. Then you bring in Nattorei for free and KO with Power Whip. That's certainly better than having Nattorei die and getting swept.

Meant 70%

Kingdra will attack first, AND when Nat switches in. (that's 3)

Or you could switch

 

[Lamppost]

Come on masterful, don't be dumb.
It's not even an argument that nattorei doesn't counter kingdra,
lol

 

[PttP]

my ninjask kos swampert as long as it has less then 30% health and switches into my attack

yay

 

[Benlisted]

get rain back up, not that hard. yes we already established some nat dont carry twave i dont see your point. what are you talking about those that do cant take 2 hits, its the same fucking pokemon with a different move. leftovers + leech seed is 18% per turn. thats pretty good.

Leech Seed will not recover enough to turn Ferro being 3HKOd into 4HKOd without luck (and maxed SpDef), that personally I would rather not rely on when you can do similar damage from uninvested PW and one turn of Leech Seed with a Power Whip off some investment in Atk.

I doubt Natt will be faster than anything after a T-wave unless the opponent's Pokemon has less than 70 base speed and is unboosted. Assuming Kingdra is in the rain it will probably still outspeed Natt. But yeah, the rest of the team could handle things after that.

Ah yes, good point. I forgot just how low his speed is. T-Wave leaves Kingdra for the rest of your team, then.

It seems the most damage Ferro can do to Kingdra is with Power Whip. T-Wave leaves him still outsped and dead, Leech Seed doesn't recover enough. So here are some calcs:

4 Atk Power Whip = 44.2-52.4%
220 Atk Power Whip (with 120 HP 168 SpDef+ to survive 2 Hydro Pumps after SR) = 54.8-64.7%

and interestingly:
220 Atk CB Power Whip = 81.5-96.6%

EDIT: Ferrothorn only really counters the physical sets, per se. It will die to the Specs one, but in the process weakening Kingdra to the point where it is no longer a problem - hence not being a true counter. Jellicent can take Specs sets on easily, however.

 

[masterful]

Come on masterful, don't be dumb.
It's not even an argument that nattorei doesn't counter kingdra,
lol

Nat at full health can either T-wave Kingdra (if it has it), or 2HKO with Power Whip (if it has it and it doesn't miss). HP Fighting won't miss, doesn't really waste a slot, and will 3HKO at most. That's what I'm saying.

 

[SlimMan]

Meant 70%

Kingdra will attack first, AND when Nat switches in. (that's 3)

Or you could switch

@ the first statement:
Where does Nattorei get to 70% from?
If you see that your opponent has a Kingdra, you can keep Nattorei in the wings in order to deal with Kingdra.
It's not that complex.

@ the second statement:
Kingdra attacks on the switch.
Kingdra attacks first on the next turn.
That is only 2.
Where is the third one coming from.

@ the third statement:
You also switch a Tyranitar into Scizor.

Nat at full health can either T-wave Kingdra (if it has it), or 2HKO with Power Whip (if it has it and it doesn't miss). HP Fighting won't miss, doesn't really waste a slot, and will 3HKO at most. That's what I'm saying.

Flygon can 3HKO max Def Bronzong. By using Fire Blast.
I guess Bronzong doesn't counter Flygon.

That is basically what you're saying masterful.

 

[masterful]

@ the first statement:
Where does Nattorei get to 70% from?
If you see that your opponent has a Kingdra, you can keep Nattorei in the wings in order to deal with Kingdra.
It's not that complex.

@ the second statement:
Kingdra attacks on the switch.
Kingdra attacks first on the next turn.
That is only 2.
Where is the third one coming from.

@ the third statement:
You also switch a Tyranitar into Scizor.

Nat gets to 70% from switching into a Hydro Pump.

Kingdra attacks on the switch.
Kingdra attacks again.
Nat uses Power Whip.
KINGDRA ATTACKS!
There you go

 

[SlimMan]

Kingdra will attack first, AND when Nat switches in. (that's 3)

This is what you said. This is only 2 hits. You were wrong.

Nat gets to 70% from switching into a Hydro Pump.

Kingdra attacks on the switch.
Kingdra attacks again.
Nat uses Power Whip.
KINGDRA ATTACKS!
Not too complex

???

Suddenly, the scenario has changed. When I replied to one of your posts, I was told that my reply didn't counter a different post. Which means that you expect every single one of my arguments to counter ALL of your arguments. If one argument had to counter ALL others, then you've lost worse than anyone here thought.

Also, there are two ways this can go.
Here's one:
Kingdra switches in.
Kingdra KOes X.
Nattorei switches in at 100% health.
Nattorei 2HKOes Kingdra.


Here is the other one:
Kingdra switches in.
Kingdra uses DD.
X attacks Kingdra.
Kingdra KOes X.
Nattorei switches in at 100% health.
Nattorei OHKOes Kingdra.


In both scenarios, Kingdra loses.

 

[Benlisted]

Though it pains me to say it, in this case masterful is correct, Ferrothorn cannot "Counter" Specs Kingdra, though it is a hard counter to DD sets.

Ferro needs a free switch to be able to beat Specs Kingdra, so it doesn't counter it. Also, Ferro can actually only OHKO Kingdra with a CB Explosion, nothing else hits hard enough...

 

[SlimMan]

Lmao. Corrected, I did mean Ferrothorn cannot counter Specs Kingdra.

Anyway, anyone know what priority does upwards of 45% to Kingdra? As in conjunction to Ferrothorn this can beat any Kingdra.

Hitmontop does a minimum of 67.5% to 4 HP using Fake Out + Mach Punch.
The next best is CB Roobushin Mach Punch, at 40.4%-48.3%.

And by the way, it's easier to get a free switch-in than a high damage roll.

 

[Potential]

This argument seems a bit pointless, but can't Ferrothorn use Leech Seed and Protect to recover a good deal of the HP he loses from Hydro Pump (from Specs) to survive long enough to beat Kingdra? Something like this:

Switch in/Hydro Pump -136 HP (on average, though it is against 252/252 Sassy) = 216 HP
Leech Seed/Hydro Pump -136 HP +36 HP = 116 HP
Protect/Hydro Pump +36 HP = 152 HP
Power Whip/Hydro Pump -136 HP +36 HP = 52 HP
Protect/Hydro Pump +36 HP = 88 HP

So Specs Kingdra would beat him out with particularly good damage rolls, but this is completely unrealistic theorymon, anyway. Also keep in mind that the chance for 3 Hydro Pumps to hit is barely over 50%. So he's not a counter, as he can definitely be run through by the repeated Hydro Pumps, but Kingdra doesn't exactly have a good chance of beating him, either (less than 50%).

 

[Benlisted]

This argument seems a bit pointless, but can't Ferrothorn use Leech Seed and Protect to recover a good deal of the HP he loses from Hydro Pump (from Specs) to survive long enough to beat Kingdra? Something like this:

Switch in/Hydro Pump -136 HP (on average, though it is against 252/252 Sassy) = 216 HP
Leech Seed/Hydro Pump -136 HP +36 HP = 116 HP
Protect/Hydro Pump +36 HP = 152 HP
Power Whip/Hydro Pump -136 HP +36 HP = 52 HP
Protect/Hydro Pump +36 HP = 88 HP

So Specs Kingdra would beat him out with particularly good damage rolls, but this is completely unrealistic theorymon, anyway. Also keep in mind that the chance for 3 Hydro Pumps to hit is barely over 50%. So he's not a counter, as he can definitely be run through by the repeated Hydro Pumps, but Kingdra doesn't exactly have a good chance of beating him, either (less than 50%).

You're entirely right, Ferrothorn could run Protect+Leech Seed and beat any Kingdra. The problem is that it has pretty bad 4 moveslot syndrome, and in a lot of other situations anything else but protect will be more useful, unfortunately. Leech Seed and Protect do go well together generally, however. If the need arises, it could be used however. Also, Protecting on the turn after you switch in (before Leech Seed) drains more of Hydro Pump's PP and gives you some Lefties recovery, which helps a little.

 

[Arc Tech]

If you're desperate for a specsdra counter, Abomasnow can handle it, crippling both its power and its speed, and resisting its main STAB. Timid HP fire doesn't even ohko without SR, and modest has to roll max damage. It also cripples ddra's speed (although it will be dding) and forces it to outrage.

Kingdra@Choice Specs (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) 70 Fire Special vs Abomasnow@Leftovers (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 77 ~ 91.6% (296 ~ 352 HP)

Kingdra@Choice Specs (252 EVs, +Nature) 70 Fire Special vs Abomasnow@Leftovers (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 84.3 ~ 100% (324 ~ 384 HP)

 

[Potential]

Oh, hahaha, I forgot Leftovers. I guess that assumes Shed Shell or something, then; so maybe Kingdra can't beat him even with good damage rolls. And I personally use Protect over the other stuff a lot of the time, mainly because it helps him so much with Leech Seed, particularly when that's his only "significant" recovery.

...But weren't we trying to get away from "countering" stuff, as it tends to be such theorymon?

 

[ToF]

How is Protect + Leech seed bad on Nattorei? It's perfectly viable and in fact one of the better sets, as you can scout for choice moves on the Lati@s twins while likely simultaneously recovering from Leech Seed and Leftovers. It is in no way a 4 moveslot syndrome Pokemon. I don't see the need to run Gyro Ball if you have other ways to deal with things like the Lati twins and Gengar, and the only other options are really Power Whip, Thunder Wave, and Spikes, which are pretty easy to differentiate.

 

[supermarth64]

Eh I'd still call it a 4MSS Pokemon, I'd love to have Power Whip/Gyro Ball/Leech Seed/Protect/Spikes/TWave on it. Gyro Ball's still useful for hitting things like Birijion and Breloom on the switch so they won't be so inclined to come in for free. Sure you can TWave them but some people don't like TWave on Nattorei and others have different uses for it.

 

[JSND]

well to hell with nattrei. Hes not that unbreakable. Seeing everybody use nattrei start trying to attack first as said in the smogcast seriously. Its a lot more effective than switch and spiking really.

Well dd kingdra isnt the one everybody have trouble with in the first place so arguing that isnt going to make anything

 

[SJCrew]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85406

Well, Landlos will seem a bit less menacing once this glitch is fixed.

Interesting. I don't play a lot with Landlos, though, I mostly just use calcs to see how much damage he'll do to certain things before I put him on my team. Of course, even if you assume 1.3, he breaks every wall in OU at +2 and has absolute dick for counters. It's not up to me though, I really haven't been messing with any Sand this round.

 

[November Blue]

How is Protect + Leech seed bad on Nattorei? It's perfectly viable and in fact one of the better sets, as you can scout for choice moves on the Lati@s twins while likely simultaneously recovering from Leech Seed and Leftovers. It is in no way a 4 moveslot syndrome Pokemon. I don't see the need to run Gyro Ball if you have other ways to deal with things like the Lati twins and Gengar, and the only other options are really Power Whip, Thunder Wave, and Spikes, which are pretty easy to differentiate.

Agreeing with this. I don't find much use for gyro ball. Power whip works fine for whittling down resists. I run Power whip, leech seed, protect and spikes/stealth rock/twave. The first three moves are essential. Grass STAB is too important to give up, and so is protect + leech seed. It gives him reliable recovery, saps the opponent and allows him to scout. I tried a ferrothorn with power whip, gyro ball, spikes and SR, and it felt like a deadweight on my team.

Protect and leech seed give it much more staying power and make it difficult to work around. When your counter takes hazard damage, two turns of leech seed and weather while ferro gets leftovers and leech seed on the switchin then a turn of protect, it can have a hard time switching in repeatedly.

 

[JSND]

Yup its not like fast flying type is common in the first place. However breelom switching in on Power whip sucks. Then as everybody sane would do he sub itself up while youre sending counter or stay and he falcon focus punch the ehck out of you.

As a non nattrei user this knowledge will give me huge advantage at dealing with natts. its not like natts is broken that i need to have special measure anyway

Also since this is suspect thread does anyone know reason there is no defensive charasteristic ? I think its because walls, one way or anotehr is easier to play with unlike offensive sweeper. Lets face it, nattrie's good but abusing him is very easy and gave crippling blow to one's team so easily.
For example thinks zekrom in ubers. So you say zekrom is countered by nattrei ? well in actual fact zekrom is NOW nattrei's counter which is ridiculous example of how awesome abusing defensive walls like that.
I think if were nominationg nattrei(not like hes too good to be nominated anyway) as a suspect, we cant say the only reason walls isnt banned is because theres no defensive characteristic suspect anymore. If something is broken then ban it. Thats just some kind of excuse some people have used to nominate walls TBH

 

[Vexatious]

Though it pains me to say it, in this case masterful is correct, Ferrothorn cannot "Counter" Specs Kingdra, though it is a hard counter to DD sets.

Ferro needs a free switch to be able to beat Specs Kingdra, so it doesn't counter it. Also, Ferro can actually only OHKO Kingdra with a CB Explosion, nothing else hits hard enough...

I don't see why we need a solid counter to both sets on a single pokemon. If you have the tools to fight rain teams in the first place, you should have something to eat water hits better than Nattorei. For instance, I use Vaporeon and Nattorei. Everything i see Kingdra it's off to Vaporeon. With his excellent bulk, Kingdra can do one of 5 things.

Waterfall: Vaporeon absorbs, I see its physical, I go to Nattorei.
Dragon Dance: Vaporeon sits there, I see its physical, Nattorei.
Outrage: Vaporeon lives, I see its physical, Nattorei.
Hydropump: Vaporeon absorbs, I see its specs, I baton pass for momentum
Draco Meteor: Vaporeon lives, I see its specs, I lul and go to Nattorei.

Really the only situation Nattorei doesn't like is Hydro pump, and even then if it's locked into Hydro Pump it's very easily handled.

Not saying you need Vaporeon, but I'm saying you shouldn't be relying on a single check to such a large threat. If the team is working together properly, than your team itself should be the counter to Kingdra, not the pokemon.

 

[Benlisted]

I don't see why we need a solid counter to both sets on a single pokemon. If you have the tools to fight rain teams in the first place, you should have something to eat water hits better than Nattorei. For instance, I use Vaporeon and Nattorei. Everything i see Kingdra it's off to Vaporeon. With his excellent bulk, Kingdra can do one of 5 things...

Not saying you need Vaporeon, but I'm saying you shouldn't be relying on a single check to such a large threat. If the team is working together properly, than your team itself should be the counter to Kingdra, not the pokemon.

True, I wasn't saying Ferro needed to beat every Kingdra, just pointing out that it is in fact beaten by the Specs Set. Someone already pointed out that Jellicent does just as well to beat Specs Kingdra as Vappy. It seems that there may be a little of Salamence syndrome going on - the wrong prediction may leave a huge chunk taken out of another pokemon due to Kingdra having two deadly sets. However, the fact that with Hazards you can see if Lefties are present helps, as does the Choice set locking in, and being able to switch to an appropriate possibly immune counter after it does.

In any case I think none of the Rain abusers indvidually have been identified as the issue - it is the fact Rain teams can run Kingdra, Ludicolo and Kabutops (or others) together, all of whom have limited and different counters that causes the problem.

 

[IcyMan28]

I think we can all stop arguing about Rain at least momentarily, now that Aldaron's proposal has passed the voting phase.

I'm expecting Manaphy and Latios to be the next two to get the boot, and hopefully the other three (especially Reuniclus) will stay OU.

 

[lmitchell0012]

If you're desperate for a specsdra counter, Abomasnow can handle it, crippling both its power and its speed, and resisting its main STAB. Timid HP fire doesn't even ohko without SR, and modest has to roll max damage. It also cripples ddra's speed (although it will be dding) and forces it to outrage.

Kingdra@Choice Specs (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) 70 Fire Special vs Abomasnow@Leftovers (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 77 ~ 91.6% (296 ~ 352 HP)

Kingdra@Choice Specs (252 EVs, +Nature) 70 Fire Special vs Abomasnow@Leftovers (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 84.3 ~ 100% (324 ~ 384 HP)

If you're looking for a counter to specs kingdra, why not just use blissey??