Breloom is just barely outsped by +spe 130s after the drop
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Breloom
- Thread starter Manaphy
- Start date
But do we know if the damage boost on Wake-Up Slap if added after Technician and STAB? Or before? I know that Technician is added before STAB so Wake-Up Slap will be 60 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 135 if the enemy isn't asleep. If it is doubled after Technician and STAB then it increases to 270. I guess that would be a bit overpowered though. It probably goes 60 x 2 x 1.5 = 180. I mean 180 isn't something to sneeze at but it would let you take Mach Punch or Ankle Sweep instead.
Anyone able to confirm the way Wake-Up Slap damage is calculated with Technician involved.
Anyone able to confirm the way Wake-Up Slap damage is calculated with Technician involved.
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Technician_(ability)
"For moves with variable base power, Technician will only apply if the base power is 60 or less when used. Thus, Pursuit will not get a Technician boost if the opposing Pokémon switches and Pursuit's base power doubles to 80. Similarly, if a move like Avalanche is used by a Pokémon previously damaged in the same turn, which doubles Avalanche's base power to 120, then Technician will not be applied."
It doesn't specify Wake-Up Slap, but it's obviously the same principle.
"For moves with variable base power, Technician will only apply if the base power is 60 or less when used. Thus, Pursuit will not get a Technician boost if the opposing Pokémon switches and Pursuit's base power doubles to 80. Similarly, if a move like Avalanche is used by a Pokémon previously damaged in the same turn, which doubles Avalanche's base power to 120, then Technician will not be applied."
It doesn't specify Wake-Up Slap, but it's obviously the same principle.
Well poop :( But still 135 when the enemy is awake and 180 when they are asleep is very nice. It just becomes a question of if you would rather have Mach Punch, Force Palm or Ankle Sweep. If you take Ankle Sweep it will still match a non-sleep buffed Wake-Up Slap and lower the enemies Speed. You can then take Stone Edge instead of Rock Tomb for the increased chance to get a critical hit. Plus the Speed debuff would be redundant. Force Palm is also nice same damage and a chance to Paralyze which gives dual status :)
When they're asleep you're better off using Focus Punch...
Techniloom isn't that good due to the lack of poison heal recovery.
Focus Punch would be nice, but it takes an extra turn to set up. Which means the enemy could switch out. I am almost thinking of going with Force Palm. I like the idea of having dual status. If I went Focus Punch I would go something like this I think.
Sub-Punch - Poison Heal
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed Adamant/Jolly
~Focus Punch
~Substitute
~Leech Seed/Seed Bomb
~Stone Edge
-Focus Punch STAB 225 Fighting move!
-Substitute to set up Focus Punch.
-Leech Seed for Substitutes and some added damage or Seed Bomb for an additional STAB attack
-Stone Edge for Fires, Flyers, Icers and Bugs plus an increased chance to crit.
Sub-Punch - Poison Heal
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed Adamant/Jolly
~Focus Punch
~Substitute
~Leech Seed/Seed Bomb
~Stone Edge
-Focus Punch STAB 225 Fighting move!
-Substitute to set up Focus Punch.
-Leech Seed for Substitutes and some added damage or Seed Bomb for an additional STAB attack
-Stone Edge for Fires, Flyers, Icers and Bugs plus an increased chance to crit.
Having access to Spore and not using it just seems almost criminal anyway.
This is just my opinion, but if you've got poison heal, I don't think you really need leech seed. In fact, leech seed in my opinion is a pretty useless move on breloom because it has better things to do with it's time (like punching holes into your enemy). His stats are more ideal for sweeping, not stalling. Anyways, if you want a support move, spore is a much better option, as it has 100% accuracy, and doesn't go away if your opponent decided to switch (unless they have natural cure). So, the final set should be something like:
~Spore
~Substitute
~Focus Punch
~Seed Bomb/Stone Edge
Techniloom has an incredibly powerful STAB, Spore, Rock Tomb, and priority that can OHKO nearly everything weak to fighting after a little residual or SR
Tecniloom is so annoying, not GOOd, just annoying, easy to revenge kill after one thing has been put to sleep, and it's bad enough that he got no inmunity to status meaning that a wow will kill him, sub puncher Breloom is better considering you got yourself a good poke and behing a sub fling will kill shandy
There is a pretty decent set I've made use of lately mainly due to the fact I can't seem to pull off subseed and subpunching is just too situational for me.
Breloom (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Atk / 128 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Drain Punch
- Seed Bomb
The EVs were set mainly to answer Doryuuzu, as in good health, nothing from Doryuuzu OHKOs even at +2 except for maybe Return. Spore for putting stuff to sleep, Mach Punch for priority, Drain Punch is the crux of this set, letting you take a hit from Doryuuzu and buddies, and heal it off while killing them. If they live, just Mach Punch and finish up, grabbing 12.5% healing along the way if sandstorm is not active. Seed Bomb is, well, coverage and STAB, not much else to say. If nothing else, I'm open to tweaks to the set.
Breloom (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Atk / 128 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Drain Punch
- Seed Bomb
The EVs were set mainly to answer Doryuuzu, as in good health, nothing from Doryuuzu OHKOs even at +2 except for maybe Return. Spore for putting stuff to sleep, Mach Punch for priority, Drain Punch is the crux of this set, letting you take a hit from Doryuuzu and buddies, and heal it off while killing them. If they live, just Mach Punch and finish up, grabbing 12.5% healing along the way if sandstorm is not active. Seed Bomb is, well, coverage and STAB, not much else to say. If nothing else, I'm open to tweaks to the set.
imo SubPunch breloom is now easier to counter than in last gen, especially with Gliscor, Xatu and Flame Orb Sigilyph around. You don't even need to have something to take the sleep, and even if you don't have something status immune, breloom has trouble getting past general fighting type counters if you absorb the spore with something else.
Techniloom and SubPunch have essentially the same counters, because they both come in on stuff they can use for set up fodder (Ferrothorn, Swampert, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, etc). The difference is Techniloom uses priority to hit stuff before they can hurt you, while SubPunch uses Sub on the switch and then hits them with a Focus Punch or Seed Bomb. SubPunch is far superior imo, because it eases prediction tenfold. With Techniloom you can't protect yourself after you've Spored a Pokemon, while you can rely on both Sub AND Spore on the SubPunch set.
Techniloom has priority. I feel I must reiterate as that is one of the main reasons it is so fantastic. With a simple Rock Tomb / Bullet Seed / Spore / Mach Punch set you can easily simulate the act of possessing substitute as simply spamming Rock Tomb OHKOs Chandelure and allows Breloom to outspeed all pokes below 130 base speed even with a positive nature. With the great coverage allowed by these three moves, a second hit is frequently guaranteed, and few pokes can take two hits from Breloom's base 130 attack stat, especially with hazards down.
Did I not mention it has priority? I'm saying priority is basically the same as Substitute for Breloom's purposes, but without Substitute after you Spore you HAVE to use Rock Tomb or else Chandelure comes in easily (along with a bunch of other stuff...).
Chandelure can't trap you either way, and using Substitute usually has the EXACT same effect as using substitute, except in situations where a 2HKO is impossible
I think it should be worth mentioning that Skill Link Cloyster with Icicle Spear is a great way to get around the SubPunch. I feel like cloyster's massive defense can't really take the abuse of a focus punch on the switch-in; but for a revenge-kill, 5 Stab Icicle Spears are GOING to break the sub and keep pounding through. Works well with a rest-talker to absorb spore ahead of time, making SubPunch pretty much useless.
The subpuncher has always been easy to counter, I used a seed/recover/psychic/thunder wave physically defensive Celebi just to counter it.
Despite its terrible typing, it was my favorite physical wall to use, simply because it shuts so many physical threats down, and Breloom couldn't do anything to it because they never ran anything but stab moves.
Honestly, techniloom is great, it could be worse than the subpuncher, but it all depends on what you need.
If your team struggles against Doryuuzu, techniloom is the one you want, not the subpuncher.
90.9% - 106.1%
That's how much an Adamant 252 Cloyster with life orb does to Breloom.
So, unless Breloom is injured, you're not revengekilling it with a sub up.
And yeah, Cloyster takes something like 130-150% from focus punch.
Despite its terrible typing, it was my favorite physical wall to use, simply because it shuts so many physical threats down, and Breloom couldn't do anything to it because they never ran anything but stab moves.
Honestly, techniloom is great, it could be worse than the subpuncher, but it all depends on what you need.
If your team struggles against Doryuuzu, techniloom is the one you want, not the subpuncher.
90.9% - 106.1%
That's how much an Adamant 252 Cloyster with life orb does to Breloom.
So, unless Breloom is injured, you're not revengekilling it with a sub up.
And yeah, Cloyster takes something like 130-150% from focus punch.
Celebi has pretty good defensive typing - few will argue that Ground, Water, Electric, and Fighting resists are bad to have. It may be weak to 7 few types but it can always switch out of them.
Either Breloom is effective, IMO. I find SubPunch as more of a team player while Techniloom can hit hard right off the bat. It is depressingly slow for SD to be effective, though.
Either Breloom is effective, IMO. I find SubPunch as more of a team player while Techniloom can hit hard right off the bat. It is depressingly slow for SD to be effective, though.