Metagame Workshop

[JTD783]

50 mph: A Bus Full of Explosive Pokemon
(Name based on that one movie Speed lol)

Possible Premis: Pokemon will immediatly Explode if their health reaches 25% or lower.
This is just a test idea.

I want to create a meta game where, under certian conditions, pokemon will automatically just explode. It sounds a little zany at first, I know, but it can be a practical and centralizing way to both snag KOs or get off some powerful Explosion damage.
I understand a meta like this would be fast paced, and probably means stall would be unviable. I think it can still work, and all the while be sorta fun.

Buffs: high attack stats, steel/rock/ghost/normal types, scrappy users, ect.
Debuffs: pitiful attack stats, low physical defensive mons, ect.

Bans: Damp, maybe Mega Loppuny?

Questions for the community:
What can be the condition for exploding; low heath, damage done, status conditions, super effective attacks, critical hits, or anything else?
I’m open for anything!

More debuffs: Iapapa Berry and similar types, focus sash, substitute, life orb, reversal, etc. Anything that relies on the user having low HP becomes a liability. Maybe under 20% just for the sake of iapapa and sub? idk.

are -ate mons broken? if a mon uses explosion does that just make for 2 explosions? same for healing wish/lunar dance/memento

I like the idea of HP best; damage done has too much of a bias against tanky mons, status ruins a lot of slower pokemon as well as stuff like gliscor and twave/wisp/toxic/scald become broken, super effective attacks would make games way too fast, and crits would be too luck-based and make kingdra S+++ tier.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

50 mph: A Bus Full of Explosive Pokemon
(Name based on that one movie Speed lol)

Possible Premis: Pokemon will immediatly Explode if their health reaches 25% or lower.
This is just a test idea.

I want to create a meta game where, under certian conditions, pokemon will automatically just explode. It sounds a little zany at first, I know, but it can be a practical and centralizing way to both snag KOs or get off some powerful Explosion damage.
I understand a meta like this would be fast paced, and probably means stall would be unviable. I think it can still work, and all the while be sorta fun.

Buffs: high attack stats, steel/rock/ghost/normal types, scrappy users, ect.
Debuffs: pitiful attack stats, low physical defensive mons, ect.

Bans: Damp, maybe Mega Loppuny?

Questions for the community:
What can be the condition for exploding; low heath, damage done, status conditions, super effective attacks, critical hits, or anything else?
I’m open for anything!

Here’s some potential sets, given that it still goes off the 25% health threshold.

Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- High Jump Kick
- Substitute
- Ice Punch

Run of the mill mega lop, but I added sub instead of Return. This is because it can be great for both potentially absorbing opposing explosions, while also helps get you close to your own. Scrappy with normal/fighting stabs is just perfect in this meta, where I argue that ghost/steel/rock mons will be popular to halven the power of opposing Explosions.

Landorus-Therian @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock

Essentially lead lando, but explosion no longer has to take a move slot up. You can potentially SD till you take a big hit, which then FS guarantees explosion. Lastly, knock off can be replaced with Stone Edge for coverage, but I believe knock off’s utility and typing is better here.

Ursaring @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Endure
- Close Combat
- Crunch

Kind of a joke set, but Belly Drum followed by Guts then Endure gives you a ridiculous combo for explosive damage. It probably won’t be usuable since again the influx of Ghost types and some attackers that may short fuze it, but look at these calcs after it gets off a Belly Drum:
+6 252 Atk Guts Ursaring Explosion vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 693-816 (208.1 - 245%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Guts Ursaring Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 363-427 (111.3 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

More debuffs: Iapapa Berry and similar types, focus sash, substitute, life orb, reversal, etc. Anything that relies on the user having low HP becomes a liability. Maybe under 20% just for the sake of iapapa and sub? idk.

are -ate mons broken? if a mon uses explosion does that just make for 2 explosions? same for healing wish/lunar dance/memento

I like the idea of HP best; damage done has too much of a bias against tanky mons, status ruins a lot of slower pokemon as well as stuff like gliscor and twave/wisp/toxic/scald become broken, super effective attacks would make games way too fast, and crits would be too luck-based and make kingdra S+++ tier.

This actually raises two questions regarding the mechanics of the explosion:
1. Will the explosion still go off even when the pokemon gets KO’d, like aftermath?
2.Will the explosion happen after items and abilities activate?

For example, an Iappa berry Iron Barbs Ferrothorn takes a Close Combat is brought down to 20% of its health. Would the order of operations be Iron Barbs activating, then the Iappa berry? Or would Explosion go before both of these?

I for one vote no Explosion on KO, and then Abilities, Items, then Explosion as far as the order.

The -ate abilities will be very good no doubt, but not broken. There aren’t too many good users of them in OU, and a mon like mega Pinsir still has two of the same resistances as normal type attacks.

But, what should be the verdict on these two mechanics?
Explosion on KO, too? Or only when surviving and at a quarter health?
Abilities and items first, or Explosion first?

Edit: Maybe not the best way to do this, but how bout a quick strawpoll?
http://www.strawpoll.me/16247886

 

[SadisticMystic]

Tapunium Z might actually get some use here, particular if you've made a bunch of trades and it's now 1v1. Even if you don't survive the explosion, the fact that you forced them to initiate it, rather than yourself, makes you the winner on the double KO clause.

 

[hiei-q]

50 mph: A Bus Full of Explosive Pokemon
(Name based on that one movie Speed lol)

Possible Premis: Pokemon will immediatly Explode if their health reaches 25% or lower.
This is just a test idea.

I want to create a meta game where, under certian conditions, pokemon will automatically just explode. It sounds a little zany at first, I know, but it can be a practical and centralizing way to both snag KOs or get off some powerful Explosion damage.
I understand a meta like this would be fast paced, and probably means stall would be unviable. I think it can still work, and all the while be sorta fun.

Buffs: high attack stats, steel/rock/ghost/normal types, scrappy users, ect.
Debuffs: pitiful attack stats, low physical defensive mons, ect.

Bans: Damp, maybe Mega Loppuny?

Questions for the community:
What can be the condition for exploding; low heath, damage done, status conditions, super effective attacks, critical hits, or anything else?
I’m open for anything!

I found some problems with this format: substitute seems broken: it can help you to explode and blocks explosions.

Another problem is that explosion succesfully beats a pokemon even if it lives on low health, since that would force that pokemon to explode and die against no opponent. I dont knkw if "force the opponent to explode" is part of your metagame idea

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

I found some problems with this format: substitute seems broken: it can help you to explode and blocks explosions.

Another problem is that explosion succesfully beats a pokemon even if it lives on low health, since that would force that pokemon to explode and die against no opponent. I dont knkw if "force the opponent to explode" is part of your metagame idea

Well, sub is a double edged sword. Offensively, the best defence of course is a ghost type, and of course any strong phys def Steel or Rock type dont mind it. What I’m saying is that it’s still hood, but largely predictable and has its practical counter measures.

Thats the whole point! You gotta be careful when snagging those explosive KOs, as you may go down yourself. Currently, I’m debating if KOs cause explosion, or if its a Sitrus Berry effect and you need to be alive still for it to work.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

I’ve made some decisions about mechanics for 50 MPH. I have some sets to show them off.

Greninja @ Ghostium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Spikes

Protean Gren with Shadow Sneak works great to get explosion KOs with Shadow Sneak, and can even have a STAB 100 bp ghost attack with the Z move. It isn’t great, sure, but Gren is still very fast and can snag revenge kills easily with it, as again, all you have to do is get to 25% to initiate the explosion. Furthermore, explosion does not trigger at a KO, and only in a 1-25% range. U-Turn is not exempt from the damage trigger either, and will cause the explosion just like any other attack. Lastly, protean gives gren a great explosion, making focus sash totally viable as well.


Zygarde @ Mago Berry
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 148 HP / 148 Atk / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Coil
- Substitute
- Thousand Arrows

Double dance Zygarde works great here as its Coil helps it take revenge explosions better, while its Mago Berry saves it from its own. This is because the order of operations for taking damage is abilities, items, the attack’s secondary effect, then the explosion. Thus, the Mago Berry will save any mon from an explosion. And once it’s eaten, sub also then helps Zygarde get closer to its own explosion if needed.

Zeraora @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Okay, but THIS is the meta for Zeraora. Plasma Fist induced explosions would make Zeraora both immune and then even have recovery! As DrPumpkins pointed out, LO is better than Choice Band as it allows you to always go for Plasma Fists when needed, and jolly nature is used as HP Ice still can 2HKO most Lando sets regardless. Even Knock Off for ghost types and CC fro steel/rock types make the coverage perfect; just try to avoid the detonation threshold!

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I’ve made some decisions about mechanics for 50 MPH. I have some sets to show them off.

Greninja @ Ghostium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Spikes

Protean Gren with Shadow Sneak works great to get explosion KOs with Shadow Sneak, and can even have a STAB 100 bp ghost attack with the Z move. It isn’t great, sure, but Gren is still very fast and can snag revenge kills easily with it, as again, all you have to do is get to 25% to initiate the explosion. Furthermore, explosion does not trigger at a KO, and only in a 1-25% range. U-Turn is not exempt from the damage trigger either, and will cause the explosion just like any other attack. Lastly, protean gives gren a great explosion, making focus sash totally viable as well.


Zygarde @ Mago Berry
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 148 HP / 148 Atk / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Coil
- Substitute
- Thousand Arrows

Double dance Zygarde works great here as its Coil helps it take revenge explosions better, while its Mago Berry saves it from its own. This is because the order of operations for taking damage is abilities, items, the attack’s secondary effect, then the explosion. Thus, the Mago Berry will save any mon from an explosion. And once it’s eaten, sub also then helps Zygarde get closer to its own explosion if needed.

Zeraora @ Choice Band
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Okay, but THIS is the meta for Zeraora. Plasma Fist induced explosions would make Zeraora both immune and then even have recovery! Choice Band makes the mission to do just enough damage even easier, and Jolly nature is used as HP Ice still can 2HKO most Lando sets regardless. Even Knock Off for ghost types and CC fro steel/rock types make the coverage perfect; just try to avoid the detonation threshold!

I think Life Orb would be better for Zeraora, since it means you can always use Plasma Fists to finish off a foe, and the recovery offsets the recoil.

 

[Derper]

A couple questions about the critical hit mechanics. Let's say I'm running Terrakion, and use Stone Edge, which has a 1/8 (3/24) chance of getting a critical hit. Will those 3/24 "tokens" still be in effect if I were to use Close Combat? Essentially, if you use Stone Edge and then Close Combat, are you at 4/24 total tokens?

For multihit moves, since they only have one token associated with them, does that mean that if you proc a critical with them then they will crit all five times, or will they only crit once on the first hit?

I have seen what red_shaggy posted and if that is true then i wouldn't want to carry it too much further but to answer your question yes crit token would be carried between moves as the only abuse i could see of this is a high crit move like stone edge raising your chance to 23/24 then close combating. since stone edge is really the only viable +1 crit chance move in the game i feel it wouldn't be too broken.

 

[Rose_Warrior]

Poke chairs:

pokemon gain the moves of the next pokemon in the team and the ability of the last pokemon in the team

bans: huge power, pure power, smeargle, regigas, slaking, shell smash

Possible bans: speed boost, kyurem-B

any other bans that need to be added?

is this to similar to another meta?

How do you think mega evolution should work? should pokemon keep mega ability should it change after they switch or just keep the ability they had before mega evolving?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Poke chairs:

pokemon gain the moves of the next pokemon in the team and the ability of the last pokemon in the team

bans: huge power, pure power, smeargle, regigas, slaking, shell smash

Possible bans: speed boost, kyurem-B

any other bans that need to be added?

is this to similar to another meta?

How do you think mega evolution should work? should pokemon keep mega ability should it change after they switch or just keep the ability they had before mega evolving?

This is very similar to my Movepool Rotation idea (basically this without the ability changing) and it got rejected. Maybe the ability swapping will be enough to convince the QC team to approve the meta, though.

 

[ElMustacho]

I looked into resources and there's nothing like this. Let's hear what you think;

Permanent Effects

Metagame premise: Effects that are normally cancelled on your (forced or not) switch out are restored when you switch in again (dormant while they are not on the field).

examples

Your pokemon heard Perish Song and switches out on perish 1; when he comes back he still has perish 1, and will faint accordingly.
You successfully use Attract on the opponent; now he's attracted and if it returns on the field he's still gonna be attracted. If the user of Attract switches out the effect ends.
You are hit by Toxic (not sure if banworthy) and you stay in for 2 turns before switching out; when you'll return, you'll take 18% damage.
Stat changes aren't reset on switchout.
Aqua ring gives you leftovers recovery even if you switch out.
Pokemon will suffer the effects of Leech Seed until they use Rapid Spin.
You get hit by Worry Seed; you have Insomnia even after switch out.

Potential bans and threats:

some examples

Perish Song may be a little too much. It's a delayed OHKO move, but has some (maybe not enough but still) counterplay and problems; Soundproof makes you immune to it and Throat Chop makes it impossible to use it. It is also a trade, because perish song will also target the user.
Curse (ghosts) is a 4 turns KO. It costs half of your health but some ghosts have access to reliable recovery (such as palossand and all grass/ghost).
Toxic may need to be looked at. It's a 6 turn KO now. Heal Bell / Aromatherapy / Rest and so on check this however.
Setup is complicated. An hypothetical scarf user could run a boosting move on forced switches and break everything when returning. On the other hand you may have your attacker incapacitated (setdown?) because it was the victim of way too much debuffs.

Questions for the community:
I don't know. Just tell me if you like it / is implementable.

 

[Rose_Warrior]

just stick with every thing being permanent cause all the other stuff is confusing only problem I see is freeze if everything is permanent how does baton pass work? What about smack down? what about confusion? what about being locked into a move? what about encore? if encore stays intact that would be that scarf would also making choice items totally unusable unless you spam the same move over and over and that's all you do also it sounds like simple users are going to be great same with ultra beasts revenge killing is no longer a option against them

I'm a bad player so don't take what I have to say as godly I'm not a top tier player like some of these people just a random joe

 

[ElMustacho]

just stick with every thing being permanent cause all the other stuff is confusing only problem I see is freeze if everything is permanent how does baton pass work? What about smack down? what about confusion? what about being locked into a move? what about encore? if encore stays intact that would be that scarf would also making choice items totally unusable unless you spam the same move over and over and that's all you do also it sounds like simple users are going to be great same with ultra beasts revenge killing is no longer a option against them

I'm a bad player so don't take what I have to say as godly I'm not a top tier player like some of these people just a random joe

Baton pass is banned in OU, if not then it should just give the receiver whatever it does already and remove from itself what it gave. If you are smacked down then you are forever vulnerable to ground. Confusion lasts until you snap out of it naturally (heal bell works too). Encore locks you in a move until it ends. Choice items either will use the first move forever or they reset once per switch out, (which is against the premise but keeps them being usable).

There are so much implications that idk if it's worth to list them all before it gets at least considered.

 

[ChiroM]

None of the current OMs seemed to accomplish what I'm looking for and I couldn't find anything in the last dozen pages (though it's hinted that the general concept of costs isn't new). Tell me what you all think!

Burden of the Mighty
​

The Premise
The higher the tier of the Pokemon you want to use, the lower the chance you'll be able use more from the same tier on your team.

The Concept
In this OU-based format every Pokemon has a corresponding point value based on their usage tier. When forming a team, The sum of Pokemon therein can’t be more than 16. The values by tier are as follows:

• OU - 4
• UU - 3
• RU - 2
• NU/PU - 1
• LC/NFE - 0

So what about BL tiers? BL Pokemon will cost +.5 of the tier they were booted from. So a UUBL Pokemon would have a point value of 3.5, where an RUBL would cost 2.5. NU and LC are exempt from this rule.

The Bans
As stated before, this format’s foundation is in the OU tier and applies all bans and restrictions found therein.

The Threats
For Burden of the Mighty the hope is to foster large amounts of diversity in team composition, as well as figuring out new strategies and combinations not possible in any 1 tier. Since the scope of this meta is so large, it’s hard to say if any particular play styles will dominate over the others.

One thing that may have more certainty than not is that since there will be an abundance of lower tier pokemon over higher ones, lifting some of the lower tier bans (probably on Z-moves) may be short lived.

 

[Rose_Warrior]

what about ubers for 8 or maybe 12? so you could have 5 uu pokemon with a nu pokemon or 4 ou pokemon

 

[ChiroM]

what about ubers for 8 or maybe 12? so you could have 5 uu pokemon with a nu pokemon or 4 ou pokemon

I did think about Ubers and I'd feel hesitant about being able to use two, so I'd wager somewhere within the 10-12 range, myself. If I had to choose, I'd leave Ubers out, but I'm open to the idea if testing they don't break the format.

And yeah, I'm cautious about those numbers, honestly. I wanna think the LC/NFE penalty would be a decent deterrent, but that's definitely up in the air as of now.

An idea from a friend was to include a usage tax for the higher tiers. So the first OU/UU would add its standard point value, but every additional one would add an additional 1 or .5 to its use-cost.

 

[SadisticMystic]

Much like resource-allocation formats like Pika Cup in Stadium, the way to go here is to get as much value from the high end as you can squeeze into the budget, then fill the rest of the team out with the biggest impact they can make for the smallest footprint possible. 16 points is enough to hold 4 OU slots; since you can't afford to spend points on anything else, the other two slots are best served as NFE FEAR Pokemon, as that has more potential for impact (trading 1-1 with a presumably higher-tier opponent) than any other use those slots can be put to. Any other distribution is prone to getting outgunned by the two-thirds of a regular OU team that you can afford to keep.

 

[Magii]

None of the current OMs seemed to accomplish what I'm looking for and I couldn't find anything in the last dozen pages (though it's hinted that the general concept of costs isn't new). Tell me what you all think!

Burden of the Mighty
​

The Premise
The higher the tier of the Pokemon you want to use, the lower the chance you'll be able use more from the same tier on your team.

The Concept
In this OU-based format every Pokemon has a corresponding point value based on their usage tier. When forming a team, The sum of Pokemon therein can’t be more than 16. The values by tier are as follows:

• OU - 4
• UU - 3
• RU - 2
• NU/PU - 1
• LC/NFE - 0

So what about BL tiers? BL Pokemon will cost +.5 of the tier they were booted from. So a UUBL Pokemon would have a point value of 3.5, where an RUBL would cost 2.5. NU and LC are exempt from this rule.

The Bans
As stated before, this format’s foundation is in the OU tier and applies all bans and restrictions found therein.

The Threats
For Burden of the Mighty the hope is to foster large amounts of diversity in team composition, as well as figuring out new strategies and combinations not possible in any 1 tier. Since the scope of this meta is so large, it’s hard to say if any particular play styles will dominate over the others.

One thing that may have more certainty than not is that since there will be an abundance of lower tier pokemon over higher ones, lifting some of the lower tier bans (probably on Z-moves) may be short lived.

This seems like a more solid way to force the usage of lower tiered pokemon, and IMHO not better than tier shift. Metagames that seek to place heavy restrictions on the OU metagame without adding a new mechanic aren’t as fun, and really just force you to build new teams in an otherwise same old environment. It seems fun in theory, but in practice much less so.

 

[InvalidOS]

350 Cup is an Uber based meta, which is banned. Anyway, in this meta, you can do crazy things like this lol.

Metagamiate (Kartana) @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance / Leaf Blade
- Return
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off

Camomons (Mawile) @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance / Fire Fang

Inheritance (Azelf) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 160 Atk / 96 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt / Fire Blast

Don’t get me started on -atespeed mons, Boomburst Noivern in any meta, Inheritance Torkoal + Heatran, Sketchmons Lele with Psycho Boost, Nature Swap Naughty Azumarill... and many more I forgot.

Thanks for pointing out the mistake with 350 Cup. It's fixed now, I replaced 350 Cup Spritzee with Tier Shift Pyukumuku.

 

[ChiroM]

Much like resource-allocation formats like Pika Cup in Stadium, the way to go here is to get as much value from the high end as you can squeeze into the budget, then fill the rest of the team out with the biggest impact they can make for the smallest footprint possible. 16 points is enough to hold 4 OU slots; since you can't afford to spend points on anything else, the other two slots are best served as NFE FEAR Pokemon, as that has more potential for impact (trading 1-1 with a presumably higher-tier opponent) than any other use those slots can be put to. Any other distribution is prone to getting outgunned by the two-thirds of a regular OU team that you can afford to keep.

I don't disagree with any of this. The first iteration of this idea attempted to limit the number of mons from a given tier, but it got too complex and unsatisfactory. My proposed format doesn't place explicit limits but leaves that up to the player, hoping to foster creativity while not pinning them down too hard.

Honestly, though, 4 OU is definitely too much (as is 5 UU while I'm being honest, lol) and reading your response has convinced me of that, so something like a "tax" or a tier limit could probably mitigate this. That or make the values such that the teir limits (probably 2 OU and 3 UU) comes naturally. The goal is to have this OM be simple enough to easily keep track of your budget (I like this word and will probably use it to rename the OM).

 

[ChiroM]

This seems like a more solid way to force the usage of lower tiered pokemon, and IMHO not better than tier shift. Metagames that seek to place heavy restrictions on the OU metagame without adding a new mechanic aren’t as fun, and really just force you to build new teams in an otherwise same old environment. It seems fun in theory, but in practice much less so.

I think you hit my OM right on the nose, actually. Though "heavy restrictions" on OU mons is what comes out of this OM, the idea is to see a meta just as interesting as OU while having more options and fostering even more creativity. OUs would still be viable and encouraged (along with other mons). Looking at Tier Shift, it seems OU pokemon are near obsolete, and that's not really what this format is going for.

Ultimately this OM would be the "same old environment", but also the diversity in teams and viable options would, theoretically, allow players to throw together teams and use pokemon they otherwise never would/could. The goal is to offer something fresh without going crazy or drastically altering the standard competitive experience.

I've definitely got some good feedback and wanna test this with a discord server, maybe. So I'd hope any fun that could be derived from this format would be more than theoretical.

 

[Rose_Warrior]

Stunted Evolution:

Final Stage pokemon have the type and ability of the the lowest pre evolution.

Has this already been done?

 

[Merritt]

Stunted Evolution:

Final Stage pokemon have the type ability and moves of the the lowest pre evolution.

Has this already been done?

Bans: slaking Single Stage pokemon

Why would you ban Slaking? It's still got Truant if I'm understanding this right, since that's Slakoth's ability.

 

[Rose_Warrior]

it was an error I forgot about slakoth I thought it went viroth slaking I completely forgot slakoth is a thing XD sorry about that but is there any thing you think should be banned?