Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

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Any word on Dracozolt? Every knows about dracovish by now and is spamming it, but I haven't seen anything for dracozolt. In theory it could do the same thing but electric. Not to mention hustle making bolt break even stronger (provided it hits lol).
Its a solid wallbreaker and one of the best checks to Gyarados we have thus far. I have found alot of success with Sub + Three Attacks which forces switches and can set up sub against alot of fat stuff like Pex, Corviknight, and even Ferrothorn.
 
Any word on Dracozolt? Every knows about dracovish by now and is spamming it, but I haven't seen anything for dracozolt. In theory it could do the same thing but electric. Not to mention hustle making bolt break even stronger (provided it hits lol).
From my expiernce it’s very good, but it has 3 things that hamper it from being just like Dracovish. Firstly their moves, although basically the same on paper, Dracovish gets Strong Jaw which has zero drawback unlike hustle. Second is the fact that Ground is immune to electric where only specific mons with specific abilities are immune to Fishous Rend. Water/Dragon is simply offensively better. And until Sand Rush releases, I think it will fall into Dracovish’s shadow in terms of usuage. I will say though that Dracozolt is an underated Dynamax candidate, something that Dracovish can do, but doesn’t benefit as much from. With access to aerial ace and low kick, it can boost attack and speed with Hustle active, setting up for Bolt Beak plays down the road
 
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From my expiernce it’s very good, but it has 3 things that hamper it from being just like Dracovish. Firstly their moves, although basically the same on paper, Dracovish gets Strong Jaw which has zero drawback unlike hustle. Second is the fact that Ground is immune to electric where only specific mons with specific abilities are immune to Fishous Rend. Water/Dragon is simply offensively better. And until Sand Rush releases, I think it will fall into Dracovish’s shadow in terms of usuage. I will say though that Dracozolt is an underaged Dynamax candidate, something that Dracovish can do, but doesn’t benefit as much from. With access to aerial ace and low kick, it can boost attack and speed with Hustle active, setting up for Bolt Beak plays down the road
There's also the fact that Bolt Beak cannot benefit from a boost from weather, whereas Fishious Rend can. That's an added 50% damage that allows Band Dracovish stuff like 2HKOing physdef Toxapex...
 
There's also the fact that Bolt Beak cannot benefit from a boost from weather, whereas Fishious Rend can. That's an added 50% damage that allows Band Dracovish stuff like 2HKOing physdef Toxapex...
Bolt Beak can benefit from electric terrain, but yeah terrain isn't as convenient to set up as rain is.
 


Mantine @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hurricane
- Hydro Pump
- Surf
- Gunk Shot

I saw Blunder use this mon on a Rain squad and I'm baffled at how well this thing actually performs, especially as a Dynamax mon. It's deceptively strong w/ Specs under Rain, and when Max'd, it can set its rain back up like other Rain abusers, but it can also boost Speed w/ Max Airstream when outside of Rain (or in it when up against opposing Rain) and boosts its Special Attack w/ Max Ooze coming from Gunk Shot, which can be used to pick something that's weakened off and then benefit from the boosted power right after. Mantine only really needs its STABs anyway, so having something like GS in the last slot isn't too detrimental to its performance imo.
 
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Hello everyone, over the past 2 days I've played around 90 games and managed to peak at #32 with a 73-15 record. In this post, I'll drop my thoughts on some Pokemon in the current metagame.


I think Seismitoad's one of the best Stealth Rock setters in the metagame right now. Thanks to its typing combined with Water Absorb and its relatively decent bulk, Seismitoad is capable of checking dangerous Pokemon like Dracovish, Dracozolt, Rotom-W, and Rotom-H. Its immunity to Water is an amazing quality because Dracovish is on like half the ladder teams right now, and a Dracovish that practically can't use Fishious Rend really struggles to make any progress at all. I'd also like to point out just how nice Toxic is on Seismitoad. Thanks to Toxic, it's really hard to consistently punish Seismitoad, as it enables it to cripple Pokemon that'd otherwise be able to abuse it, such as Hydreigon.


Life Orb Clefable's probably the best balance breaker right now; Moonblast / Flamethrower / Thunderbolt is virtually unwallable. Loads of people are running pretty passive defensive backbones like Ferrothorn / Toxapex / Galarian Corsola, Corviknight / Toxapex, and Mandibuzz / Ferrothorn / Jellicent, which Clefable can easily find switch in opportunities against, and from there, it kinda just goes crazy.


Lastly, I'd like to talk about Galarian Corsola. As the meta has gotten time to develop, I've honestly just gotten more and more disappointed by Galarian Corsola. It's easily punished by threatening wallbreakers such as Dragapult, Hydreigon, and Gengar, and the rise in Life Orb Clefable doesn't help it either. On top of that, more people have been running Mandibuzz, a Pokemon that Galarian Corsola can't really set Stealth Rock against without being punished.
 
Let me add on to this paragraph saying that Ditto will easily be listed as an OverUsed Pokemon once the first official usage stats come out. That'll mean the lower tiers will not have access to Ditto, removing what is almost a necessary form of counterplay to Dynamax. The lower tiers will be a Hell-scape without Ditto, in my opinion.
Ditto having a Tier designation feels so weird, even when I don't consider its use as a Dynamax check. Would it be against the spirit of defining tiers to allow Ditto to be used everywhere regardless of usage?
 
Just some thoughts on dynamax, which Pokémon don't benefit from it?

Wobbuffet and G.Corsola ig?

One of the nice things about (a few) mega Pokémon like Mega Garchomp and Mega That that there were reasons for and against using it

Shedinja even kinda does with it's Max Flutterby and its still on 1HP I think (pls don't or do if I see you on ladder)
 
Ditto having a Tier designation feels so weird, even when I don't consider its use as a Dynamax check. Would it be against the spirit of defining tiers to allow Ditto to be used everywhere regardless of usage?
Yes, since the tiers are usage based, it would be entirely arbitrary. There are mons in old gen OUs that are completely terrible there, but they got locked in there because of usage stats once the generation ended. Not to mention Ditto is not only used often, but also viable in OU currently.
 
I'm sure everything I say about dmax has been stated already but what I've gathered:

Dynamaxing overly rewards the player that gets momentum going first. Once you're in advantaged state it lets you snowball unchecked for three turns. Vastly increased bulk coupled with 100+ base power moves that often provide further stat boosts or additional upside is too good.

The popular refutation I would presume is that both players have access to this mechanic equally. If that were enough to balance something then we could unban Zacian. Both players would have access to him equally. The problem with this is that it makes the game all about a single overcentralizing mechanic.

I think without dmaxing we will see a much more balanced and skill intensive metagame. Snowballing because of a single good prediction isn't healthy.
 
Lastly, I'd like to talk about Galarian Corsola. As the meta has gotten time to develop, I've honestly just gotten more and more disappointed by Galarian Corsola. It's easily punished by threatening wallbreakers such as Dragapult, Hydreigon, and Gengar, and the rise in Life Orb Clefable doesn't help it either. On top of that, more people have been running Mandibuzz, a Pokemon that Galarian Corsola can't really set Stealth Rock against without being punished.
GCors has a hard time setting rocks, but its Whirlpool set is decent:

Corsola-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Night Shade
- Strength Sap
- Will-O-Wisp
 

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
Hey people, I would like to share a set and a team which I've been enjoying a lot in gen8 ladder. I made my way to top1 without much trouble using several teams, but this one is by far my favourite (yeah many people have similar looking stuff but try to be creative in gen8). It utilizes RK9 to its fullest potential so I really want to share it :3


RK9 (Arcanine) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Snarl
- Flamethrower
- Morning Sun

I came up with this set after hurting my head badly trying to find a solution to darmanitan, clef and Trickroom hat all in one slot. Also "deals" with dragapult, mimikyu, corviknight, ferro. I know it looks kinda meh at first glance, but the truth is that many teams struggle to get rid of rk9 once its on the field. Lemme explain how it beats clef: clef normally runs modest LO+3 attacks (moon, flame and thunder), cuz unlike in smou, it doesnt have softboiled to stall out ferro's gyroball. So you have to run flame for it, the necessary thunder for toxapex, moon for stab. So rk9 becomes able to counter it since flame does great damage to offensive clef which in return cannot touch you. Snarl helps stalling OTR hat as well as stalling specs pult and random special attackers. Being a firetype with intimidate helps a lot versus darmanitan, because only EQ can damage rk9. In the team I made with it, rk9 is a soft darm check: yes, EQ will KO it, but as everyone knows, darm is impossible to check, so having an ice resist that doesnt fear uturn is p dope.

In this team it compliments corvi very well since together they force darm to actually predict instead of iciclecrashing like a dumbass. I started with the last 5 mons and added rk9 since it fixed the darm/clef/hat issue while being a switchin to ferro (no, clef isnt really a switchin when offensive).


RK9 Balance by Ktut



RK9 (Arcanine) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Snarl
- Flamethrower
- Morning Sun

Dragapult @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- U-turn

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Defog
- Roost

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Toxic

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Transform

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower
- Thunder
- Moonlight


I would usually not post a team here but I really love how this rk9 works in this particular team + several people wanted to know about it.

I started with clefable+toad+corvi because it was a balanced core I wanted to try, in particular clef which is actually good when orb 3 attacks. It seems most people came to the same conclusion regarding clef: it has to be offensive cuz fuck moonlight, fuck pex, fuck ferro, fuck whack stall teams. No chansey, free clef. I started with max spdef toad and full def corviknight: however hatterene soon changed my plans, and I had to make corvi spdef with ironhead. Uturn is a great move, especially with ditto: you send corv on drill or gyara, and then pivot out safely into ditto. Its been working wonders; ironhead helps a lot vs hat and well, ttar too ig. Clef isnt supposed to switch into anything really, just stops ferro from leech spamming and pex from walling everything. Once you have clef on the field, proceed to kill something, and dynamax if needed: lifeorb+dynamoves+200% HP turns clef into a monster. RK9 is the selling point of the team: you indeed need it not to instalose vs clef, darm and to a lesser extent, hat. Pult is standard, I run timid because I want to outspeed barraskewda, scarf dracovish/+1 zolt which kinda exist. Also helps in speed ties. Ditto is there because its the gen8 landorus ;; Answer to drill gyara you name it.

Also, why the hell am i a noob using mirror armor corviknight?? Eh. It's actually great: you can 1v1 specs dragapult and aegislash which spam shadowball to drop your spdef. Also helps walling MAx darkness and MAx ghost (both drop your stats). As you can see the team is short of ghost resists so I'm doing the best I can.

Why you need Mirror Armor: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1017026804-dfqusrwzycph5roe4h7vkiywd290u2ipw (turn 15+)


I hope you enjoyed this team adapted as well as possible to the meta, feel free to use it. I made 252/252 spreads cuz I didnt see what particular member would need a "clever" spread. Feel free to change that too, in particular speed creeping. Ban Darm, Lucha and Gyara btw. Assuming that nat.dex will be without dynamax, dont ban it in regular swsh: whats even the point of playing it if nothing good is available and you can't dynamax to feel different from natdex.

-Ktut
 
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I don't see the problem with Dynamax. That's just me though. It's still possible to plan out your games taking Dynamax into account and it's possible to counter your opponents Dynamax without even using it yourself. On the other side of the coin, Dyanamax has introduced defensive utility. I don't really see G-Max Lapras being brought up. It's G-Move produces Aurora Veil, doubling the bulk of your entire team for 8 turns if you're holding Light Clay. And it can be used on the fly, you don't even need to set up Hail. Offensive teams can use it to increase their bulk to facilitate their own sweep against other offensive teams. That strategy would obviously be less useful against stall since damaging moves aren't really their priority. Defensive teams could use it to weather the attacks of sweepers and give their walls breathing room.
 
I don't see the problem with Dynamax. That's just me though. It's still possible to plan out your games taking Dynamax into account and it's possible to counter your opponents Dynamax without even using it yourself. On the other side of the coin, Dyanamax has introduced defensive utility. I don't really see G-Max Lapras being brought up. It's G-Move produces Aurora Veil, doubling the bulk of your entire team for 8 turns if you're holding Light Clay. And it can be used on the fly, you don't even need to set up Hail. Offensive teams can use it to increase their bulk to facilitate their own sweep against other offensive teams. That strategy would obviously be less useful against stall since damaging moves aren't really their priority. Defensive teams could use it to weather the attacks of sweepers and give their walls breathing room.
with Lapras, I feel it's veil set wouldn't be that good, as firstly it takes up a g-max/dyna slot on your team, and mons like ninetales would be more consistently able to set them up due to it's speed [or grimsnarl for that matter]. And with other defensive mons dynamaxing, you become left with 2-3 max guards, which are completely useless, and they can break past you with boosting moves like max knuckle and ooze, while you won't do much because you aren't offensively invested, and their hp is doubled, so all you can really do is badly stall them.
 
I don't see the problem with Dynamax. That's just me though. It's still possible to plan out your games taking Dynamax into account and it's possible to counter your opponents Dynamax without even using it yourself. On the other side of the coin, Dyanamax has introduced defensive utility. I don't really see G-Max Lapras being brought up. It's G-Move produces Aurora Veil, doubling the bulk of your entire team for 8 turns if you're holding Light Clay. And it can be used on the fly, you don't even need to set up Hail. Offensive teams can use it to increase their bulk to facilitate their own sweep against other offensive teams. That strategy would obviously be less useful against stall since damaging moves aren't really their priority. Defensive teams could use it to weather the attacks of sweepers and give their walls breathing room.
I've experimented with this and I have to say I was badly disappointed.
G-Max is hugely wasted on this, unable to abuse it at all, with abysmal stats and really doesn't put in work in general while requiring huge team support.
Grimmsnarl w/ or w/out G-Max is just so much better
On a different note, I'll post many of my custom spreads later because imo building custom spreads are fun af
 
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I dont understand how people still think Dynamax is balanced in general...
I see footage of VGC and Dynamax is more "balanced" in his format, but in singles is another world.. why a mechanic like this exist in "the most compentitive generation"(Gamefreak). I think this was a joke...
 
with Lapras, I feel it's veil set wouldn't be that good, as firstly it takes up a g-max/dyna slot on your team, and mons like ninetales would be more consistently able to set them up due to it's speed [or grimsnarl for that matter]. And with other defensive mons dynamaxing, you become left with 2-3 max guards, which are completely useless, and they can break past you with boosting moves like max knuckle and ooze, while you won't do much because you aren't offensively invested, and their hp is doubled, so all you can really do is badly stall them.
I can see your point. Lapras has the advantage of firing of a Base 120-130 BP Ice move while setting up it's screens so it isn't giving away turns while doing so. And between that and Max Geyser, there aren't a lot of mons that comfortably switch in and it can set up the rain for something like Dracovish or Barraskewda while doubling their bulk with veil. You wouldn't primarily be depending on Lapras to set up rain, but there's utility there. Since it's decently slow, it's rain would get set over most other mons using Max moves that change weather.

I've experimented with this and I have to say I was badly disappointed.
G-Max is hugely wasted on this, unable to abuse it at all, with abysmal stats and really doesn't put in work in general while requiring huge team support.
Grimmsnarl w/ or w/out G-Max is just so much better
On a different note, I'll post many of my custom spreads later because imo building custom spreads are fun af
Lapras is the one supporting the team with veil and potential rain support. I don't really think that Lapras is supposed to be abusing much. It's supposed to be paired with teammates that benefit from it's support. Outside of it's G-Max, I guess there's options like Freeze Dry, Perish Song, etc that give it decent utility.
 
I can see your point. Lapras has the advantage of firing of a Base 120-130 BP Ice move while setting up it's screens so it isn't giving away turns while doing so. And between that and Max Geyser, there aren't a lot of mons that comfortably switch in and it can set up the rain for something like Dracovish or Barraskewda while doubling their bulk with veil. You wouldn't primarily be depending on Lapras to set up rain, but there's utility there. Since it's decently slow, it's rain would get set over most other mons using Max moves that change weather.


Lapras is the one supporting the team with veil and potential rain support. I don't really think that Lapras is supposed to be abusing much. It's supposed to be paired with teammates that benefit from it's support. Outside of it's G-Max, I guess there's options like Freeze Dry, Perish Song, etc that give it decent utility.
I'd see Lapras doing better in Doubles than Singles
Having to switch out or sack it to something that can abuse Veil is eating away the turns which gives opponents time to setup or spread status/hazards
 
I have tried Lapras and had mixed results with it. I was initially attracted to it because of the extremely valuable Water Absorb and also a x4 Ice resist which is great vs Darmaritan. Aurora Veil is nice but a weird thing to use your Dynamax on. Especially if it's used on the first turn of your Dynamax. Most sweepers would rather just use their own Dmax and be 10x more self sufficient. Maybe a more offensive inclined set would be better.

Regardless it's a badass Dracovish counter because it can absorb Rends and hit back with x4 effective Freeze Dry.
 

chimp

Go Bananas
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What have you guys been finding are the best counters to the legion of Mystical Fire Fairies in this meta? I'm finding Sylveon, Hatterene and Clefable to be particularly difficult to switch in on with typical Ferro/Corviknight/Toxapex orientated cores.
 
I would be more willing to consider Dynamax broken if at least one of the following applied to it:
  • Lasted more than 3 turns
  • Modified other base stats besides HP upon Dynamaxing
  • Wasn't available to literally any Pokemon at any time during a match
Keep in mind, you also have access to things like Toxapex, Galarian Corsola, Aegislash, Ferrothorn, Eiscue, Mimikyu, Unaware users, Focus Sash, Trick Room, and your own ability to Dynamax, all of which can be helpful when facing various opposing Dynamaxed Pokemon (hell, you could even use this). It's also worth noting that Dynamaxing is arguably much less brainless than some other mechanics we've seen; you only get three turns to do anything with it, and if your Pokemon gets KOed or switched out, or if your opponent is able to survive all three turns, then you've basically wasted it.

I touched on this in a post I made about a week ago, but I might as well reiterate that I still think it's too early to ban Dynamaxing; I had been lurking on Smogon for about 7 years before I finally decided to join back in 2016, and I remember seeing post after post complaining about Weather (and Dream World Abilities in general) in Gen 5, Megas in Gen 6, and Z-Moves in Gen 7 when those respective generations were new. But once people learned how to play the game with these new mechanics, we didn't see as many people screaming for them to be banned. Give the metagame time to adapt to Dynamaxing, and you might find that it's not so bad after all (or that there are a few bad apples you can weed out while still keeping the mechanic itself).

Also, spare me the bullshit excuse that "only bad players use it" (looking at a certain previous poster here). A pro adapts to the new game and utilizes the resources they have available to them in order to win; faux-pros and scrubs are the ones who blame exterior elements besides themselves for their own inability/refusal to adapt.
Is three turns not enough for you to get a major advantage? If you need more than 3 turns with a mon with boosted stats + boosted moves that give free advantages, you need some coaching

It doesn't matter if it doesn't instaboost everything else. It still modifies other stats while it gives major attack boosts + sets terrains/weathers + boosts stats or cuts their stats?

So making it an unlimited choice compared to locking it to one pokemon like megas/z-moves makes it less broken? LOL

I never said only bad players use it. Its a crutch for bad players, but it is so broken and mandatory now that every player can and will use it.

I only said bad players will be the ones grasping at straws desperately hoping that the big boys dont remove it. Just goes to show the type of ppl who are defending dynamaxing.
 
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Something else to point out is that Dynamax somehow being balanced because both people are able to Dynamax is a poorly thought out point to say the very least. That's because in the vast majority of situations the person who Dynamaxed first has the advantage. Once they've dynamaxed they've likely either:

1) Taken out or severely weakened a key pokemon on your team
2) Accumulated stat boosts to set up for a sweep (often getting multiple boosts while simultaneously dishing out huge damage)
3) Doubled their HP to render your check useless (see Gyarados surviving thunderbolts)
4) All of the above, all at the same time

Meanwhile, you have none of the above. Dynamaxing in response to their dynamax is almost never ideal - by the time you do it they already have huge momentum while you're scrambling to do damage control. And the unpredictable nature of dynamax just makes this all the worse. In most cases the only way to safely counter someone else's dynamax is to do it on the same turn as them - which is not at all easy to do when they can literally do it on any individual turn in the game. It puts huge pressure on you to make the exact right read at the right time - and if you're wrong it's probably GG.

And sorry but the conversation is going to keep coming back to dynamax. It affects the outcome of every single match that's played - often drastically. I don't think there's any single mon that's been so broken as to literally affect every single game that's played by anyone on Showdown. We can't ignore it when it's in every match. There's no escaping this mechanic as it currently has the entire metagame in a vice grip - and it ain't letting go.

P.S. Dynamax Togekiss is stupid as hell
 

Matthew

I love weather; Sun for days
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Is three turns not enough for you to get a major advantage? If you need more than 3 turns with a mon with boosted stats + boosted moves that give free advantages, you need some coaching

It doesn't matter if it doesn't instaboost everything else. It still modifies other stats while it gives major attack boosts + sets terrains/weathers + boosts stats or cuts their stats?

So making it an unlimited choice compared to locking it to one pokemon like megas/z-moves makes it less broken? LOL

I never said only bad players use it. Its a crutch for bad players, but it is so broken and mandatory now that every player can and will use it.

I only said bad players will be the ones grasping at straws desperately hoping that the big boys dont remove it. Just goes to show the type of ppl who are defending dynamaxing.
I'm not a terrible player and I enjoy the mechanic, i'm also a fan of our smogon generations having themes and being distinct from one another. This is to make things like tours more interesting, as the formats are vastly different from one another, and makes jumping between generations an experience in itself. That said while I've said I'm in favor of keeping the dmax as the gen 8 thing I'd be happy to concede the point with just the dexit thing and see where it goes from there.

The smogon meta of the generation needs to have a flavor otherwise I am fairly sure people are going to get bored. While we all love DPPT I don't think we would look at it so fondly with similar metagames 10 years down the line.
 
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