Metagame 2v2 Doubles

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Another post about Z.
In an attempt to analyze how Z-moves affect balance, I will first analyze damage and it's sources in general.

Balance

Disregarding other elements, such as pokes, moves, abilities that offset the balance, let's assume that the meta is balanced.
Starting off with the barebone pokemon, a beneficial gain of any sort, in this case let's look at damage boosts, offsets the balance and shifts the battle toward the advantage of the side with the gained benefits . What corrects the offset is the cost of the benefits. If the cost is insufficient you usually see the source of the benefit banned in Smogon metagames.

The format will be as follows:
Damage source: costs:

A high damage pokemon: Usually pays for it with low defensive stats, low speed, a detrimental ability, a detrimental movepool, or a combination of those.
A high damage attack: Distribution, negative effects, accuracy, and conditions. More details in this post
  • V-Create
    • Victini, Rayquaza (banned)
  • Prismatic Laser
    • Necrozma
  • Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, Frenzy Plant
    • starter pokes, Arceus (no Frenzy Plant, banned)
  • Eruption
    • Typhlosion, Entei, Camerupt, Torkoal, Heatran, Groudon (banned)
  • Water Spout
    • Wailord, Jellicent, Blastoise, Octillery, Kyogre (banned)
  • Rock Wrecker
    • Rhyperior, Crustle
  • Head Smash
    • Aegislash, Aggron, Archeops, Basculin, Corsola, Cranidos, Donphan, Emboar, Hydreigon, Nidoking, Nihilego, Rampardos, Relicanth, Scrafty, Sudowoodo, Turtonator, Tyrantrum
  • Roar of Time
    • Darkrai, Arceus (banned), Dialga (banned)
  • Shell Trap
    • Turtonator
  • Doom Desire
    • Jirachi (banned)
  • Psycho Boost
    • Deoxys and its formes, Lugia (banned)
  • Freeze Shock
    • Kyurem Black
  • Ice Burn
    • Kyurem White
  • Boomburst
    • Chatot, Exploud, Flygon, Noivern, Pikipek, Swellow, Toucannon
  • High Jump Kick
    • Blaziken, Hawlucha, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Lopunny, Lucario, Medicham, Mienshao, Pheromosa, Scrafty, Tsareena
  • Explosion / Selfdestruct, 250 / 200 BP
    • The user faints.
  • V-Create, 180 BP
    • 95% accuracy, Lowers the user's Defense, Sp. Def, Speed by 1.
  • Prismatic Laser, 160 BP
    • User cannot move next turn.
  • Hyper Beam / Giga Impact / Rock Wrecker / Blast Burn / Hydro Cannon / Frenzy Plant / Roaor of Time, 150 BP
    • 90% accuracy, user cannot move next turn.
  • Focus Punch, 150 BP
    • Fails if the user takes damage before it hits.
  • Eruption / Water Spout, 150 BP
    • Less power as user's HP decreases.
  • Head Smash, 150 BP
    • 80% accuracy, has 1/2 recoil.
  • Shell Trap, 150 BP
    • User must take physical damage before moving.
  • Sky Attack, 140 BP
    • 90% accuracy, charges, then hits turn 2.
  • Doom Desire, 140 BP
    • Hits two turns after being used.
  • Psycho Boost, 140 BP
    • 90% accuracy, lowers the user's Sp. Atk by 2.
  • Last Resort, 140 BP
    • Fails unless each known move has been used.
  • Psycho Boost, 140 BP
    • 90% accuracy, charges, then hits turn 2.
  • Skull Bash, 130 BP
    • Charges, then hits turn 2.
  • High Jump Kick, 130 BP
    • 90% accuracy, user is hurt by 50% of its max HP if it misses.
  • Draco Meteor / Leaf Storm / Overheat / Fleur Cannon, 130 BP
    • Lowers the user's Sp. Atk by 2.

A damage stat boosting move:

  • A turn
  • Distribution: Game Freak has mostly reasonably distributed boosting moves with qualities that are proportionate the the poke getting them. Disproportionate or too strong poke + boosting move combination gets banned, example being Xern + Geomancy, while Smeargle stays allowed despite being able to use Geo
  • Susceptibility to taunt
  • A moveslot
A damage boosting ability:

  • The ability slot itself: Arguably one of the most important factors, if not the deciding factor many times in teambuilding, which ties in with opportunity cost
  • Distribution
A damage boosting item:

  • Band / Specs:
    • Choice lock: Facing disable/torment usually means losing. If the conditions change, i.e. if the target changes type, it usually means losing. Detrimental to the partner if locked into an attack that hits the partner. Also potentially locks the user into a non effective attack vs the other opposing target. Prevents setup unless you want to be locked into the setup move. Prevents healing unless you want to be locked into the healing move. etc. Prevents any conceivable strat other than what the initial move provides.
  • Expert belt:
    • Itemless vs pokes that aren't hit SE
  • Life orb:
    • Lose 10% hp on use of an attack
  • Metronome:
    • Requires using the same attack consecutively
  • Type boosting items:
    • The boost isnt that significant. only boosts 1 type
  • In general:
    • The item slot itself
    • Boost gone if the item is lost
A damage boosting terrain/weather:

  • Through a move:
    • A turn
    • Distribution
    • A moveslot
    • Susceptibility to taunt
  • Through an ability:
    • The ability slot
    • Distribution
  • In general:
    • The opposing side gets the boosts as well
    • Can be nullified by the opponent setting up a different terrain/weather
A damage boosting partner:

  • In general:
    • Distribution
    • The boost is gone if the partner is KO'd
  • Through an ability:
    • The ability slot
    • Has counterplay in the form of removing or changing the ability
  • Through a move:
    • The partner basically didnt do anything that turn
    • A moveslot
    • Susceptibility to taunt
Z:
  • The itemslot
  • Only applies to 1 type
  • Only usable once / game

Analysis:

Looking at everything else shows that everything has costs, costs which are more or less proportionate to the gained benefits.
Looking at Z:
  • The itemslot:
    • Standard, everything takes a slot in some form.
  • Only boosts 1 type:
    • The boost to damage is so huge that it offsets the type damage difference, reducing the effectiveness of this cost.
  • Only usable once / game:
    • Very significant cost. ...In 6v6. This cost forces careful thought into when to use Z, against what, and on which poke to use it, which creates opportunity cost. The cost results in that Z becomes power spike that impacts only a fraction of the battle, which provides ways to play around the fact that someone has "blown their Z" by being able to take on the opponent in standard battle conditions, without Z in the picture anymore. What becomes of this cost in 2v2 though? There will be no need for much careful thought about when to use it other than the 50/50 that arises from "will the opponent use protect this turn?". Not to mention how you don't even need to put too much thought into whether or not you use it against a Protect as the damage can still be significant enough to change the outcome of the battle, and because it means that the Protect user won't be doing anything that turn. Even less need for careful thought as there's no risk of the target switching out. The thought put into what to target is reduced as well, as there's only 2 targets to consider, as opposed to 6. And, once again, way less need for careful thought, into what poke to use Z with as there's only 2 to pick from, which also means way less opportunity cost. And finally, the impact won't be a fraction of the battle that can be played around, but will essentially become the battle itself. There will be no way to play around the fact that someone has "blown their Z" by battling in standard conditions, because you only have the 2v2 matchup at hand and it will have been impacted in some way already, be it that one of your pokes is KO'd or injured, or that an opposing poke has gained some sort of massive boost, with the former being the most usual case. In conclusion, the most significant cost for Z is diminished in 2v2 Doubles, and with it the counterplay.
Costs it lacks:
  • As a high damage attack:
    • Distribution, negative effects, accuracy, and conditions. This is all while having more base power than than the attacks that are balanced by these costs. This is extremely significant.
    • Hitting the partner is bypassed, and if such damage is normally to be used, the user would be choice locked into hitting its partner.
    • Low accuracy is bypassed, which ties in with distribution. Accuracy of attacks of different types is distributed to pokes with qualities that are proportionate to the poke getting them, Z takes that balance out the window.
    • Negative effects: a drop in the relevant attacking stat or a drop in defensive stats, a drop in speed, or recoil damage very much gives the opponent a means of managing.
    • Conditions: Some high powered moves have conditions for the attack, such as doing nothing a turn before or doing nothing a turn after the execution of the attack, which very much gives the opponent a means of managing.
  • As a damage boosting item:
    • Boost gone if the item is lost
This is a too disproportionate of a cost:benefit ratio. No other means of attaining such damage come near.

Taking another look at Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame.

Balance
Balance
All viable playing options and strategies should be as competitively balanced as possible, in relation to each other.
Explanation:
When any elements of the metagame are considerably better than others, it gives an intrinsic advantage to players that prefer or excel with the superior elements, and handicaps players who are most proficient with other elements. This skews the player base, and hinders the potential to develop new ideas and attract new players. In order to ensure widespread appeal, the metagame should not be unbalanced for or against any particular viable strategy or expert playing option, if it is reasonably possible to avoid.

Issues and Concerns:
  • How unbalanced is too unbalanced?
  • Imbalance is easy to detect, but hard to quantify
  • Balance can be bad, if the balanced level is mediocre or worse
Other Comments:
This characteristic is typically underlying arguments about something being "overpowered". Variety refers to the breadth of aspects of the metagame; Balance addresses the magnitude of those aspects relative to each other. While these characteristics are probably closely correlated, they are two distinct aspects and care should be taken when discussing the merits of each.
This is pretty straight forward. As outlined in the costs analysis, Z is considerably better than other elements in the game by virtue of costs. The explanation part in the quoted post says pretty much everything about this case.

Skill
Skill
The metagame should require knowledge and practice to become an expert player and to achieve consistent success at the highest levels of play.
Explanation:
Although the metagame is based on Pokemon, which has fairly simple basic gameplay, the metagame should require skill to master. The ability to increase proficiency through study and hard work is the hook that draws players to become avid practitioners of the metagame. The metagame should recognize and reward players with the most knowledge, talent, and dedication. All players should feel that it is within their power to "master the metagame".

Issues and Concerns:
  • Simple essential gameplay should not be compromised
  • Don't add artificial complications to increase skill requirement
  • Intellectual and strategic skill, not physical or execution skill
  • Do skills erode?
  • Ratings systems, tournament formats, rankings, etc...
Other Comments:
This characteristic addresses how the metagame is played, and how success is defined and rewarded. While it can be difficult to truly determine who is "the best" at any given time or in any given competition -- the overall metagame should cultivate a perception (if not reality) that more skilled players will experience greater success than lesser skilled players.
An aspect of skill that ties in with costs is managing options. Z provides a way out of having to make decisions. Examples being:
Setup or boosted damage (through a choice item)? Z -> Both
Protect or boosted damage (through a choice item)? Z -> Both
Hit partner because the move needed hits the partner or use a partner that won't take damage (through ability / type / move) / use a poke that has access to a variant of the move that doesn't hit the partner? Z -> Neither.

You don't need to have much of a plan or strategy to win if you use Z. Just slap it on a poke, have some knowledge about the ability to take a hit or outspeeding, and you're good to go.
In the same vein, pre-Z, a player going in with the same skill would translate to using a choice item, which against skilled players wouldn't pay off nearly as well, considering the counterplay and limits that exist, thanks to the outlined costs. Now I'm not saying that only low skill players use Z or Choice items, only that the strats can already be used successfully enough even going in with minimal skill. The point is that Z reduces the skill required for success. Hence why "the overall metagame should cultivate a perception (if not reality) that more skilled players will experience greater success than lesser skilled players" equates to that Z should be banned.

Variety
Variety
The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players.
Explanation:
As they say, "Variety is the spice of life". And nowhere is that more true than in the world of gaming. Game makers discovered long ago that players crave diversity, change, and improvement. That's why most successful games are very broad, and are constantly adding new elements. For this reason, a high-quality metagame should be inviting to a wide number of people and personalities. By constantly striving for maximum variety, we can maximize the potential player base, which has the inevitable effect of increasing the number of good players, good strategies, and overall quality of competition. A varied metagame is fresh and exciting, and provides a constant source for investigation and discovery.

If we limit variety, or allow it be reduced, we effectively "shrink" all aspects of the metagame. A game with limited variety is boring to all but the most diehard participants. In a low-variety metagame, the best playing strategies become widely known and predictable, and participation wanes. For this reason, we should constantly strive for as much variety as possible. And, when limits to variety become apparent, the limits should be removed, if possible.

Issues and Concerns:
Too much variety is chaos.
Variety without quality is useless.
No one can master a game with too many options
"Wide" is sufficient, not "widest"
How knowledgeable should players be?
Other Comments:
This characteristic is typically underlying arguments about "centralization", or when people complain about the game being "boring".
The state of variety as it stands is that there barely is any. As pointed out in past posts, the existence, and thus extremely common prevalence due to the superiority of the strat, Z has put extreme offensive pressure on the metagame, which has shrunk and/or altered the other archetypes. The defensive archetype can now only bring the most bulky of the bulky to the table, it has thus shrunk. Other archetypes such as support have been modified so that they also double as offensive forces with power comparable to offensive pokes pre-Z.

In short, Z is an unbalancing force that also reduces skill and variety in the metagame. Z bypasses costs and balance, and an unbalancing force of this degree should be banned if a balanced, skilled, and diverse meta is what's sought after.
 
if such a carefully written, thorough, descriptive, smogon philosophy following and objectively correct post like rumple's above (edit last post on page 8 https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/2v2-doubles.3606989/page-8#post-7866882) isn't enough to do change just because 1v1 itself hasn't banned zmoves, then i will completely lose what very little faith in this subforum i still had.

my idiot take: zmoves make way too many 50/50s in 2v2 that do not need to exist from an already 50/50 based meta and are too centralizing and just generally unhealthy which have next to no opportunity cost.
 
For the sake of clarity, everything crossed out in your quotes is something that I believe does not need to be disputed.
Another post about Z.
In an attempt to analyze how Z-moves affect balance, I will first analyze damage and it's sources in general.

Balance

Disregarding other elements, such as pokes, moves, abilities that offset the balance, let's assume that the meta is balanced.
Starting off with the barebone pokemon, a beneficial gain of any sort, in this case let's look at damage boosts, offsets the balance and shifts the battle toward the advantage of the side with the gained benefits . What corrects the offset is the cost of the benefits. If the cost is insufficient you usually see the source of the benefit banned in Smogon metagames.

The format will be as follows:

Damage source: costs:

A high damage pokemon: Usually pays for it with low defensive stats, low speed, a detrimental ability, a detrimental movepool, or a combination of those.
A high damage attack: Distribution, negative effects, accuracy, and conditions. More details in this post



A damage stat boosting move:

  • A turn
  • Distribution: Game Freak has mostly reasonably distributed boosting moves with qualities that are proportionate the the poke getting them. Disproportionate or too strong poke + boosting move combination gets banned, example being Xern + Geomancy, while Smeargle stays allowed despite being able to use Geo
  • Susceptibility to taunt
  • A moveslot
A damage boosting ability:

  • The ability slot itself: Arguably one of the most important factors, if not the deciding factor many times in teambuilding, which ties in with opportunity cost
  • Distribution
A damage boosting item:

  • Band / Specs:
    • Choice lock: Facing disable/torment usually means losing. If the conditions change, i.e. if the target changes type, it usually means losing. Detrimental to the partner if locked into an attack that hits the partner. Also potentially locks the user into a non effective attack vs the other opposing target. Prevents setup unless you want to be locked into the setup move. Prevents healing unless you want to be locked into the healing move. etc. Prevents any conceivable strat other than what the initial move provides.
  • Expert belt:
    • Itemless vs pokes that aren't hit SE
  • Life orb:
    • Lose 10% hp on use of an attack
  • Metronome:
    • Requires using the same attack consecutively
  • Type boosting items:
    • The boost isnt that significant. only boosts 1 type
  • In general:
    • The item slot itself
    • Boost gone if the item is lost
A damage boosting terrain/weather:

  • Through a move:
    • A turn
    • Distribution
    • A moveslot
    • Susceptibility to taunt
  • Through an ability:
    • The ability slot
    • Distribution
  • In general:
    • The opposing side gets the boosts as well
    • Can be nullified by the opponent setting up a different terrain/weather
A damage boosting partner:

  • In general:
    • Distribution
    • The boost is gone if the partner is KO'd
  • Through an ability:
    • The ability slot
    • Has counterplay in the form of removing or changing the ability
  • Through a move:
    • The partner basically didnt do anything that turn
    • A moveslot
    • Susceptibility to taunt
Z:
  • The itemslot
  • Only applies to 1 type
  • Only usable once / game
Accurate damaging moves:
  • The move slot
By your own logic, regular damaging moves with 100% accuracy like Flamethrower and Ice Beam should also be banned, since they have no significant drawbacks to the user besides occupying one of the user's four move slots.
Analysis:

Looking at everything else shows that everything has costs, costs which are more or less proportionate to the gained benefits.
Looking at Z:

  • The itemslot:
    • Standard, everything takes a slot in some form.
  • Only boosts 1 type:
    • The boost to damage is so huge that it offsets the type damage difference, reducing the effectiveness of this cost.
Only on offensively built Pokemon. Just because Z-moves have that radical BP doesn't mean that they all do massive damage. A Z-equipped Pokemon needs to have a considerable amount of Atk/Spa in order to deal big enough damage to not worry about type effectiveness, which is why you don't see Pokemon like Toxapex running around with offensive Z-moves, since they just aren't equipped to deal damage. This aspect alone narrows down the scope of the Z-issue being universal and puts a greater focus on the Pokemon that are gifted with the aforementioned considerable Atk/Spa.
  • Only usable once / game:
    • Very significant cost. ...In 6v6. This cost forces careful thought into when to use Z, against what, and on which poke to use it, which creates opportunity cost. The cost results in that Z becomes power spike that impacts only a fraction of the battle, which provides ways to play around the fact that someone has "blown their Z" by being able to take on the opponent in standard battle conditions, without Z in the picture anymore. What becomes of this cost in 2v2 though? There will be no need for much careful thought about when to use it other than the 50/50 that arises from "will the opponent use protect this turn?". Not to mention how you don't even need to put too much thought into whether or not you use it against a Protect as the damage can still be significant enough to change the outcome of the battle, and because it means that the Protect user won't be doing anything that turn. Even less need for careful thought as there's no risk of the target switching out. The thought put into what to target is reduced as well, as there's only 2 targets to consider, as opposed to 6. And, once again, way less need for careful thought, into what poke to use Z with as there's only 2 to pick from, which also means way less opportunity cost. And finally, the impact won't be a fraction of the battle that can be played around, but will essentially become the battle itself. There will be no way to play around the fact that someone has "blown their Z" by battling in standard conditions, because you only have the 2v2 matchup at hand and it will have been impacted in some way already, be it that one of your pokes is KO'd or injured, or that an opposing poke has gained some sort of massive boost, with the former being the most usual case. In conclusion, the most significant cost for Z is diminished in 2v2 Doubles, and with it the counterplay.
See: Skill

The rest of this is just issues you seem have with the format of 2v2 as a whole. If one of your Pokemon faints, half your team is gone, regardless of whether they fainted via Z-move or any other form of damage. Much like 1v1, the formatting of the metagame can never be perfect; team preview creates all kinds of 50/50 or rps scenarios, while no team preview was effectively just Random Battles if you didn't treat it with the same kind of seriousness as a forensic scientist investigating a crime. The ultimate point here is that 2v2 will always have its limitations in that the battle will almost always effectively be ended very soon after someone launches a big attack. Banning Z-moves would only be chipping away at the grand boulder that we call "Offense", in 2v2.
Costs it lacks:
  • As a high damage attack:
    • Distribution, negative effects, accuracy, and conditions. This is all while having more base power than than the attacks that are balanced by these costs. This is extremely significant.
    • Hitting the partner is bypassed, and if such damage is normally to be used, the user would be choice locked into hitting its partner.
    • Low accuracy is bypassed, which ties in with distribution. Accuracy of attacks of different types is distributed to pokes with qualities that are proportionate to the poke getting them, Z takes that balance out the window.
    • Negative effects: a drop in the relevant attacking stat or a drop in defensive stats, a drop in speed, or recoil damage very much gives the opponent a means of managing.
    • Conditions: Some high powered moves have conditions for the attack, such as doing nothing a turn before or doing nothing a turn after the execution of the attack, which very much gives the opponent a means of managing.
  • As a damage boosting item:
    • Boost gone if the item is lost
You fail to explain why the increased base power matters or what makes it "extremely significant".
This is a too disproportionate of a cost:benefit ratio. No other means of attaining such damage come near.

Taking another look at Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame.

Balance

Balance
All viable playing options and strategies should be as competitively balanced as possible, in relation to each other.
Explanation:
When any elements of the metagame are considerably better than others, it gives an intrinsic advantage to players that prefer or excel with the superior elements, and handicaps players who are most proficient with other elements. This skews the player base, and hinders the potential to develop new ideas and attract new players. In order to ensure widespread appeal, the metagame should not be unbalanced for or against any particular viable strategy or expert playing option, if it is reasonably possible to avoid.


Issues and Concerns:
  • How unbalanced is too unbalanced?
  • Imbalance is easy to detect, but hard to quantify
  • Balance can be bad, if the balanced level is mediocre or worse
Other Comments:
This characteristic is typically underlying arguments about something being "overpowered". Variety refers to the breadth of aspects of the metagame; Balance addresses the magnitude of those aspects relative to each other.
While these characteristics are probably closely correlated, they are two distinct aspects and care should be taken when discussing the merits of each.
This is pretty straight forward. As outlined in the costs analysis, Z is considerably better than other elements in the game by virtue of costs. The explanation part in the quoted post says pretty much everything about this case.
The sections I bolded here are extremely significant, and something you should consider. The section about considering playing options "in relation to each other" means that you need to consider the mons actually used in metagame itself, rather than assuming everything acts in a vacuum, where beating half of all Pokemon in a single attack sounds significant, until you realize almost all of those Pokemon beaten are LC and NFE. Sure, offensive Z-moves are almost objectively better than just about any other alternative, but what actually uses them to considerable success in the metagame? If you looked at usage stats and moveset stats, the answer would appear to be weather and terrain reliant teams, plus a couple of exceptions.

I'm somewhat hesitant on the section about balance possibly being a bad thing, as the OP never seems to clarify how that can come about, though I would conjecture that they're talking about elements external to the tier/metagame, such as public opinion and popularity. Ideally, you would want to avoid making any kind of controversial decision without at least consulting those that would be affected by such a decision: the playerbase. A ban on Z-moves from someone literally just explaining what Z-moves do would naturally be very upsetting to many people, and thus threaten the chance of a mass exodus of players from the community that 2v2 has built up, thus far.

Alternatively, the bad balance section could also be implicit of a lacking variety of play options. This works on multiple levels for weather and terrain reliant teams, as they force out many other would-be combinations simply through the raw power and speed supplied to them by their corresponding field conditions. If Z-moves get banned, what's to stop stall from taking over 2v2 as the dominant playstyle in place of the would-be-banned weather and terrain teams? Would players to have to adapt Taunt users to every team just like BH and gen 6 AG players have to adapt anti-Sleep measures to every team?
Skill

Skill
The metagame should require knowledge and practice to become an expert player and to achieve consistent success at the highest levels of play.
Explanation:

Although the metagame is based on Pokemon, which has fairly simple basic gameplay, the metagame should require skill to master. The ability to increase proficiency through study and hard work is the hook that draws players to become avid practitioners of the metagame. The metagame should recognize and reward players with the most knowledge, talent, and dedication. All players should feel that it is within their power to "master the metagame".

Issues and Concerns:
  • Simple essential gameplay should not be compromised
  • Don't add artificial complications to increase skill requirement
  • Intellectual and strategic skill, not physical or execution skill
  • Do skills erode?
  • Ratings systems, tournament formats, rankings, etc...
Other Comments:
This characteristic addresses how the metagame is played, and how success is defined and rewarded. While it can be difficult to truly determine who is "the best" at any given time or in any given competition -- the overall metagame should cultivate a perception (if not reality) that more skilled players will experience greater success than lesser skilled players.
An aspect of skill that ties in with costs is managing options. Z provides a way out of having to make decisions. Examples being:
Setup or boosted damage (through a choice item)? Z -> Both
Protect or boosted damage (through a choice item)? Z -> Both

Hit partner because the move needed hits the partner or use a partner that won't take damage (through ability / type / move) / use a poke that has access to a variant of the move that doesn't hit the partner? Z -> Neither.

You don't need to have much of a plan or strategy to win if you use Z. Just slap it on a poke, have some knowledge about the ability to take a hit or outspeeding, and you're good to go.

In the same vein, pre-Z, a player going in with the same skill would translate to using a choice item, which against skilled players wouldn't pay off nearly as well, considering the counterplay and limits that exist, thanks to the outlined costs. Now I'm not saying that only low skill players use Z or Choice items, only that the strats can already be used successfully enough even going in with minimal skill. The point is that Z reduces the skill required for success. Hence why "the overall metagame should cultivate a perception (if not reality) that more skilled players will experience greater success than lesser skilled players" equates to that Z should be banned.
Starting with the first few bolded sections here, the wording of "consistent success" vs your outlined idea of the fear of opponents using Protect on the turn you use your Z-move suggests that Protect (and Substitute, to a lesser extent) should be the element being banned, instead, as it is a 100% constant in the 50/50's you presented, going beyond the scope of the Z-moves issue, as well. Now in no way am I advocating for a ban on Protect and Substitute, I simply want to make it clear that they have precedence well over Z-moves in regards to the aspect of taking Skill out of the metagame.

In regards to the next section about how "simple essential gameplay should not be compromised", I feel that this really just speaks for itself. While the gen 7 metagame itself effectively did this to the gen 6 metagame, I believe that it shouldn't be up to us or anyone on smogon to impose upon how Game Freak wants their games to be played. The only matter here is drawing the line as to what constitutes "essential gameplay".

the artificial complications bit doesn't have any relevance to this 2v2 discussion, but shoutouts to Inheritance lolxdrip

The section of your text that I bolded is something that I didn't really get, you seem to be suggesting that Z-moves can act as Setup AND a method of dealing damage in one, as well as Protect AND a method of dealing damage in one. Setup and damage is exclusive to a handful of signature Z-moves, such as Clangorous Soulblaze or Genesis Supernova, while there are no Z-moves that protect the user from damage while also dealing damage of its own. Perhaps you could clarify what you meant here?

The part of your text I italicized is something that can be disputed, but seems to me as if it is more of your personal take on Z-moves, rather than suggesting they are factual statements.
Variety

Variety
The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players.
Explanation:
As they say, "Variety is the spice of life". And nowhere is that more true than in the world of gaming. Game makers discovered long ago that players crave diversity, change, and improvement.
That's why most successful games are very broad, and are constantly adding new elements. For this reason, a high-quality metagame should be inviting to a wide number of people and personalities. By constantly striving for maximum variety, we can maximize the potential player base, which has the inevitable effect of increasing the number of good players, good strategies, and overall quality of competition. A varied metagame is fresh and exciting, and provides a constant source for investigation and discovery.

If we limit variety, or allow it be reduced, we effectively "shrink" all aspects of the metagame. A game with limited variety is boring to all but the most diehard participants. In a low-variety metagame, the best playing strategies become widely known and predictable, and participation wanes. For this reason, we should constantly strive for as much variety as possible. And, when limits to variety become apparent, the limits should be removed, if possible.

Issues and Concerns:
Too much variety is chaos.
Variety without quality is useless.
No one can master a game with too many options
"Wide" is sufficient, not "widest"
How knowledgeable should players be?

Other Comments:
This characteristic is typically underlying arguments about "centralization", or when people complain about the game being "boring".
The state of variety as it stands is that there barely is any. As pointed out in past posts, the existence, and thus extremely common prevalence due to the superiority of the strat, Z has put extreme offensive pressure on the metagame, which has shrunk and/or altered the other archetypes. The defensive archetype can now only bring the most bulky of the bulky to the table, it has thus shrunk. Other archetypes such as support have been modified so that they also double as offensive forces with power comparable to offensive pokes pre-Z.
Pretty much everything bolded above the Issues and Concerns should be common ideology; you want to be as inclusive with your metagame as possible. The bolded statements underneath Issues and Concerns balance the ideology out with the recognition that we don't need too much variety.

Hold your horses, pardner. You haven't done any research as to the effects of Z-moves on the metagame, or at least, you haven't shown proof of such research. In your posts, you've disregarded the factor of relevance in the metagame and assumed that everything acts within a vacuum. Take the time to consider what is prevalent in the metagame right now. While Z-moves ARE frequently present within the top usage, think about why that is the case. Again, yes, they are effectively the best items most of the top usage mons can have, but what separates it from, say, the inclusion of Life Orb in gen 4? In the end, it's most important to consider when and why the tools used by a Pokemon should ever be banned in place of the Pokemon itself. Drought was banned from UU and below because it was too powerful in the context of those tiers, Shadow Tag was banned from OU and below because it was too powerful in the context of those tiers; are Z-moves too powerful in the context of 2v2? If so, how?

In short, Z is an unbalancing force that also reduces skill and variety in the metagame. Z bypasses costs and balance, and an unbalancing force of this degree should be banned if a balanced, skilled, and diverse meta is what's sought after.
Here's your current to-do list:
  • Explain what separates Z-moves from regular attacks, like Flamethrower and Ice Beam, beyond just raw BP, since BP number isn't everything
    252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 170-200 (44.6 - 52.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
    0 SpA Aromatisse Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 160-189 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • Draw boundaries as to what level of mandatory metagame adaptation is acceptable (within reason)
  • Outline what constitutes being elements of "essential gameplay"
  • Consider the list of the most used Pokemon in the metagame start with the top 20, then feel free to include more as you deem necessary; these Pokemon act as representatives of what the metagame is like (a VR would be very helpful for this)
    • Do they regularly use Z-moves?
    • What is the purpose of their set?
    • How do they interact with other Pokemon, common and otherwise?
    • Are their sets uniquely reliant on Z-moves? Can their sets be emulated with other items?
  • Decide how many broken individual users it would take for a potential ban to instead be shifted to Z-moves as a whole (if not individual Z-crystals), much like AAA's ban on Aerilate in gen 6, followed by a mass unbanning of Pokemon previously deemed broken in AAA strictly because of Aerilate
  • After considering the most used mons, distinguish why Z-moves are a greater issue beyond weather and terrain reliant teams. What other mons use them? Are these mons broken?
  • Adhere by the 6 basic questions of performing an investigation
    • Who uses Z-moves
    • What are Z-moves used for (with regards to Who uses them)
    • When did they become prevalent (with regards to What they are used for)
    • Where is the line between balanced and unbalanced (with regards to When they became prevalent [before and after])
    • Why are Z-moves a problem in the context of gen 7 2v2 (with regards to Where the line for balance is now, as well as prior to gen 7)
    • How should Z-moves be handled (with regards to Why they are a problem)
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
For the sake of clarity, everything crossed out in your quotes is something that I believe does not need to be disputed.

Accurate damaging moves:
  • The move slot
By your own logic, regular damaging moves with 100% accuracy like Flamethrower and Ice Beam should also be banned, since they have no significant drawbacks to the user besides occupying one of the user's four move slots.
How do you figure?
As you can see all the moves listed (bar Boomburst) have accuracy deficiencies / negative side effects / conditions, with most of them also having limited to extremely limited distribution. This applies to all attacks down to 110 BP in one or multiple ways. I don’t know why I felt I had to make this list, it’s just ridiculous that someone actually thought Z attacks and regular high BP attacks are the same.
Flamethrower and Ice Beam have less than 110 BP. In no way should moves like Flamethrower and Ice Beam be banned by my logic.


-------------------------------------------------------


Only on offensively built Pokemon. Just because Z-moves have that radical BP doesn't mean that they all do massive damage. A Z-equipped Pokemon needs to have a considerable amount of Atk/Spa in order to deal big enough damage to not worry about type effectiveness, which is why you don't see Pokemon like Toxapex running around with offensive Z-moves, since they just aren't equipped to deal damage. This aspect alone narrows down the scope of the Z-issue being universal and puts a greater focus on the Pokemon that are gifted with the aforementioned considerable Atk/Spa.
The point was that the effectiveness of the cost is reduced, and yes, the reduction varies. However, the Z-issue is still universal. As I've said before, Z provides damage to other archetypes comparable to what offensive pokes have without Z. Since you brought up Toxapex, let's take a look at the situation.
0 Atk Toxapex Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 64-76 (18.7 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO

0 Atk Toxapex Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 118-141 (34.6 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(252 SpA Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 93-111 (27.2 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (double target))

252 SpA Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 126-148 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO

Your own calcs:
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 170-200 (44.6 - 52.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Aromatisse Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 160-189 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
While Hydro Pump does do marginally more damage, it also isn't at 100% accuracy. As you can see, the damage provided by Z is pretty comparable to that of a specialized offensive poke. As brought up in earlier posts, an uninvested defensive poke, with all its bulk and utility, shouldn't be doing nearly as much damage, without any boosts, as a specialized offence poke, considering the cost of that damage. This is another aspect about Z that reduces skill, balance, and variety. It reduces balance by reducing the cost of lost offensive power when using a defensive / utility poke. It reduces skill by virtue of that cost being reduced in that fewer conscious choices have to be made in that regard. And it reduces variety by adding offensive pressure to even pokes that don't specialize in offence, thereby skewing available pokes and strats.


-------------------------------------------------------


See: Skill

The rest of this is just issues you seem have with the format of 2v2 as a whole. If one of your Pokemon faints, half your team is gone, regardless of whether they fainted via Z-move or any other form of damage. Much like 1v1, the formatting of the metagame can never be perfect; team preview creates all kinds of 50/50 or rps scenarios, while no team preview was effectively just Random Battles if you didn't treat it with the same kind of seriousness as a forensic scientist investigating a crime. The ultimate point here is that 2v2 will always have its limitations in that the battle will almost always effectively be ended very soon after someone launches a big attack. Banning Z-moves would only be chipping away at the grand boulder that we call "Offense", in 2v2.
Except my posts so far have explained and analyzed the differences between regular "big attacks" and Z. I get the point about 1v1 and formats, but "while no team preview was effectively just Random Battles" is arguably false, unless by "if you didn't treat it with the same kind of seriousness as a forensic scientist investigating a crime" you mean having skill and knowledge about how to be a good player, which many had. As you say it's about the format, and as I've kept outlining, Z and 2v2 don't mix if a balanced meta is what's sought after.


-------------------------------------------------------


You fail to explain why the increased base power matters or what makes it "extremely significant".
Not really. It's been brought up in the post you're replying to and in my previous post about distribution and side effects, which has been quoted in the post you're replying to.
Distribution: Game Freak has mostly reasonably distributed boosting moves with qualities that are proportionate the the poke getting them. Disproportionate or too strong poke + boosting move combination gets banned, example being Xern + Geomancy, while Smeargle stays allowed despite being able to use Geo
While this paragraph is about boosting moves, the logic about distribution is the same. The rest is literally in the part you quoted. Bypassing distribution is extremely significant because distribution is an extremely significant balancing mechanism, and the same additionally applies to negative effects, conditions, and accuracy. Z bypasses costs, and thus balance, on moves that are way weaker than Z. By normal balancing conditions such attacks would have even steeper costs, not less. I thought that would be obvious.


-------------------------------------------------------


The sections I bolded here are extremely significant, and something you should consider. The section about considering playing options "in relation to each other" means that you need to consider the mons actually used in metagame itself, rather than assuming everything acts in a vacuum, where beating half of all Pokemon in a single attack sounds significant, until you realize almost all of those Pokemon beaten are LC and NFE. Sure, offensive Z-moves are almost objectively better than just about any other alternative, but what actually uses them to considerable success in the metagame? If you looked at usage stats and moveset stats, the answer would appear to be weather and terrain reliant teams, plus a couple of exceptions.
In relation to each other means exactly what it sounds like, that no viable strat should be way better than the others. Viable already implies that it's about what's used in the meta, and you're talking to someone who has used and tested various strats in a pre-Z and post-Z meta. Not sure where the LC and NFE is coming from. What I've said about Z is analysis of what happens in actual battles with pokes that aren't LC and NFE. And of course Weather and Terrains are going to be the top usage when they offer a clear edge. If by exceptions you mean the rest of the meta, sure.


-------------------------------------------------------


I'm somewhat hesitant on the section about balance possibly being a bad thing, as the OP never seems to clarify how that can come about, though I would conjecture that they're talking about elements external to the tier/metagame, such as public opinion and popularity.
"Balance can be bad, if the balanced level is mediocre or worse", meaning that if after balancing everything is lackluster, that the various strats don't have much impact.


-------------------------------------------------------


Ideally, you would want to avoid making any kind of controversial decision without at least consulting those that would be affected by such a decision: the playerbase. A ban on Z-moves from someone literally just explaining what Z-moves do would naturally be very upsetting to many people, and thus threaten the chance of a mass exodus of players from the community that 2v2 has built up, thus far.
The goal is to create a banlist that provides a desirable metagame by general and Smogon standards. And what I've showed so far is that a Z ban would be a step toward such a metagame, which implies that a ban on Z-moves wouldn't be controversial in any relevant way. And regarding "literally just explaining what Z-moves do", what? If by explaining what they do you mean explaining why they don't belong in 2v2 then sure. Not sure what the threat of "mass exodus", however exaggerated, is supposed to bring to the discussion when Smogon is about balanced metagames. What about the people who are held back from playing because of how unbalanced the metagame is?


-------------------------------------------------------


Alternatively, the bad balance section could also be implicit of a lacking variety of play options. This works on multiple levels for weather and terrain reliant teams, as they force out many other would-be combinations simply through the raw power and speed supplied to them by their corresponding field conditions. If Z-moves get banned, what's to stop stall from taking over 2v2 as the dominant playstyle in place of the would-be-banned weather and terrain teams? Would players to have to adapt Taunt users to every team just like BH and gen 6 AG players have to adapt anti-Sleep measures to every team?
Stall taking over as the dominant playstyle? Again with this? Seriously?
Pretty much everything about it is covered here:
So you are saying Z-moves balance out a what would be a stallfest? It's common knowledge that doubles in general is never going to be a stallfest due to double targetting, and it's even harder in a meta where you're limited to 2 pokes and there's no switching because you have less answers to threats and you can't utilize common stall strats such as Regenerator and Wish. Even ignoring that, we have the proof in 2v2 Doubles last gen, which was anything but a stallfest, with the average battle ending faster than an average 1v1 battle (where at the time stall was difficult to pull off), with stall being extremely difficult to pull off.
Even considering no weather, stall wouldn't be taking over as the dominant playstyle without Z, and by experience also the case last gen as not every battle was weather spam. In any case, a balance discussion shouldn't take into account potential future balancing.


-------------------------------------------------------


Starting with the first few bolded sections here, the wording of "consistent success" vs your outlined idea of the fear of opponents using Protect on the turn you use your Z-move suggests that Protect (and Substitute, to a lesser extent) should be the element being banned, instead, as it is a 100% constant in the 50/50's you presented, going beyond the scope of the Z-moves issue, as well. Now in no way am I advocating for a ban on Protect and Substitute, I simply want to make it clear that they have precedence well over Z-moves in regards to the aspect of taking Skill out of the metagame.
Having a real hard time making sense of this paragraph. The text I referred to encompasses skill in general. The entire thing was about that skill is important to cater to in a desirable metagame, while I brought up some parts about how Z reduces skill in 2v2 Doubles. Consistent success is different in a matchup based metagame. The consistency would be from a high enough win percentage. The point about Protect and Sub is that they're unreliable answers.


-------------------------------------------------------


In regards to the next section about how "simple essential gameplay should not be compromised", I feel that this really just speaks for itself. While the gen 7 metagame itself effectively did this to the gen 6 metagame, I believe that it shouldn't be up to us or anyone on smogon to impose upon how Game Freak wants their games to be played. The only matter here is drawing the line as to what constitutes "essential gameplay".
Essential gameplay in this case is referring to things like crits, accuracy, and skipping turns while paralyzed.


-------------------------------------------------------


The section of your text that I bolded is something that I didn't really get, you seem to be suggesting that Z-moves can act as Setup AND a method of dealing damage in one, as well as Protect AND a method of dealing damage in one. Setup and damage is exclusive to a handful of signature Z-moves, such as Clangorous Soulblaze or Genesis Supernova, while there are no Z-moves that protect the user from damage while also dealing damage of its own. Perhaps you could clarify what you meant here?
The point is that without Z, you will need to make a decision. Have Protect on your poke, or have a boosted attack. The most popular way to get the boosted attack was a choice item, which cripples your poke if you use Protect with it. Z provides both as you can use Protect and have a boosted attack. Same with setup, if you use a setup move while choiced you lose, Z allows you to both setup and use a boosted attack.


-------------------------------------------------------


The part of your text I italicized is something that can be disputed, but seems to me as if it is more of your personal take on Z-moves, rather than suggesting they are factual statements.
Why bring this up at all if you're not gonna point out what's wrong about it. The statements still stand regardless of whether it's a personal take or whatever. Why bring up "factual statements" when the topic is something as hard to quantify as skill? I brought up scenarios which strongly suggest that skill is lowered in the meta with Z allowed. Choice being prevalent in a Z-less meta is a fact. Life orb being prevalent in a Z-less meta is a fact. The existence of costs for both, and the means for counterplay is a fact.


-------------------------------------------------------


Hold your horses, pardner. You haven't done any research as to the effects of Z-moves on the metagame, or at least, you haven't shown proof of such research. In your posts, you've disregarded the factor of relevance in the metagame and assumed that everything acts within a vacuum. Take the time to consider what is prevalent in the metagame right now.
Again, how do you figure? My posts so far have covered everything from how Z affects the meta to what makes Z problematic in a 2v2 format in general. The use of "vacuum" isn't really fair here. Anyone who plays can see that I've accurately described what happens in actual battles. The only thing I've seen people dispute is the significance of what is happening. Take the time to check the usage stats and see if almost everything doesn't have Z.


-------------------------------------------------------


While Z-moves ARE frequently present within the top usage, think about why that is the case. Again, yes, they are effectively the best items most of the top usage mons can have, but what separates it from, say, the inclusion of Life Orb in gen 4?
What separates them is the entire point of the post you're replying to, costs.


-------------------------------------------------------


In the end, it's most important to consider when and why the tools used by a Pokemon should ever be banned in place of the Pokemon itself. Drought was banned from UU and below because it was too powerful in the context of those tiers, Shadow Tag was banned from OU and below because it was too powerful in the context of those tiers; are Z-moves too powerful in the context of 2v2? If so, how?
Like I already said earlier in this post, yes, Z-moves are too powerful in the context of 2v2. And asking "how" at this point can't be taken seriously considering the amount of explanation so far.


-------------------------------------------------------


Here's your current to-do list:
  • Explain what separates Z-moves from regular attacks, like Flamethrower and Ice Beam, beyond just raw BP, since BP number isn't everything
    252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 170-200 (44.6 - 52.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
    0 SpA Aromatisse Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 160-189 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Already explained multiple times prior to this post.


  • Draw boundaries as to what level of mandatory metagame adaptation is acceptable (within reason)
What does that mean?


  • Consider the list of the most used Pokemon in the metagame start with the top 20, then feel free to include more as you deem necessary; these Pokemon act as representatives of what the metagame is like (a VR would be very helpful for this)
    • Do they regularly use Z-moves?
    • What is the purpose of their set?
    • How do they interact with other Pokemon, common and otherwise?
    • Are their sets uniquely reliant on Z-moves? Can their sets be emulated with other items?
I've mentioned this before, but I don't think listing whats most used should be representative for the metagame as the metagame isn't very developed. New stuff gets discovered all the time, and if you look at the usage stats of both 08-17 and 03-18 you'll see the difference. In any case, where are you going with this? Usage alone doesn't dictate banworthyness, but taking a look at the latest usage stats show that Z is used on pretty much everything beside megas. And of course almost all of the pokes that use Z can use other items, though most would take a hit in effectiveness/viability other than the pokes which absolutely prefer something other than Z, such as Hawlucha.


  • Decide how many broken individual users it would take for a potential ban to instead be shifted to Z-moves as a whole (if not individual Z-crystals), much like AAA's ban on Aerilate in gen 6, followed by a mass unbanning of Pokemon previously deemed broken in AAA strictly because of Aerilate
  • After considering the most used mons, distinguish why Z-moves are a greater issue beyond weather and terrain reliant teams. What other mons use them? Are these mons broken?
Z is already banworthy by virtue of the outlined issues in the analyses so far. Even looking past the hinder to determine and convince that a certain poke is broken with Z when everything else gets it and currently uses it as well, the users of the various problematic outlined scenarios are what would be banworthy, which if you take a look would be any viable poke that can viably use for example a multi target attack but not a single target variant, or any viable poke that viably can setup and use Z, etc. Just take a look at the usage stats and take your pick. What makes you think the outlined issues become OK depending on which poke uses them? Z's effects go beyond what a certain poke(s) would do, as I've shown in my analyses. The situations that Z creates in 2v2 Doubles are unacceptable for a desirable metagame, regardless of which poke being the perpetrator.

  • Adhere by the 6 basic questions of performing an investigation
    • Who uses Z-moves
    • What are Z-moves used for (with regards to Who uses them)
    • When did they become prevalent (with regards to What they are used for)
    • Where is the line between balanced and unbalanced (with regards to When they became prevalent [before and after])
    • Why are Z-moves a problem in the context of gen 7 2v2 (with regards to Where the line for balance is now, as well as prior to gen 7)
    • How should Z-moves be handled (with regards to Why they are a problem)
  • Pretty much everything that isn't mega
  • Most commonly for nuking, bypassing distribution, negative effects, accuracy, conditions
  • Not sure what you mean here, but when discovered I guess
  • Again not sure what you mean here
  • Because of what's been brought up about it in all the posts so far
  • Again not sure what you mean here
 
Last edited:
deoxys-attack.gif

Deoxys-Attack
"Let the Bodies Hit The Floor"

We all know what a menace Deoxys-Attack can be. With insane offenses of 180 / 180 / 150, this thing can kill anything with a neutral Psycho Boost. But I'm not entirely here to rave on about Deo-Attack with an enormous amount of calcs. I'm here to inform you how to build and use this monster.

_______________________________________________
Chapter 1: Deo-Attack Sets
________________________________________________

We should always know the Maximum before increasing in altitude. The unfortunate fact is that Deoxys-Attack suffers from 4-move Syndrome, if you have one set you will almost always get walled by something. Doubles both treats and hurts this condition. But here are some standard sets you should use.

Native Psycho Power Killer
Deoxys-Attack @ Psychium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 100 Atk / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Superpower
- Substitute
- Protect

This is what I call the standard set for Deoxys-Attack for 2v2 Doubles. This set both uses Psycho Boost and Superpower as strong attacking moves with substitute and protect to double down on the defenses. Best used with something that can beat Sableye-Mega and Aegislash

Specs Pain Killer
Deoxys-Attack @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic / Psyschock
- Shadow Ball
- Signal Beam / Dark Pulse
- Thunderbolt / Energy Ball / Ice Beam

Choice Specs boosts Deoxys-Attack's Special Attack stat to 756! If you have Timid you get 687 Special Attack. This set negates the none stab boost that Deoxys-Attack gets from its coverage move. Best paired up with something that can distract the enemy from attacking Deo-Attack, for example, Follow Me Togekiss or Rage Powder from Amoonguss can work or Fake Out users like Scrafty or Incineroar.

Choice Band
Deoxys-Attack @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Zen Headbutt / Trick
- Meteor Mash / Posion Jab / Rock Slide / Stomping Tantrum
- Ice Punch / Thunder Punch

This set doesn't differ much from Choice Specs that it uses various coverage moves. You could also use Trick for some shenanigans.


_______________________________________________
Chapter 2: Partners
_______________________________________________
"I now understand UOP's pain of formatting"
Though Deoxys-Attack can run coverage moves for this category of pokemon, Deoxys-Attack gets walled by various Steel Types. Steel Types such as Ferrothorn, Aegislash, Metagross-Mega; If you are not careful you can get walled by Sableye-Mega, Cresselia, Hoopa-Unbound, Mimikyu, etc.

That's where your team partners come into play. Deoxys-Attack already contributes a ton of offense for your side of the field. You necessarily don't need Offensive support but more so Utility support.

Here's a list of what your team should usually be compiled of if you're building around Deoxys-Attack

As previously mentioned, Deoxys-Attack requires some offensive support in taking out common Steel Types in the metagame. Here are some successful steel type checks that Deo-Attack can fight alongside with.
  • incineroar.png
    Incineroar can provide Fake Out redirection and take out steel types like Metagross-Mega and Aegislash
  • heatran.png
    Heatran can taunt and provide offensive support against Deo-Attack checks, Air Balloon or Shuca Berry recommended when building a set.
  • landorus.png
    or
    landorus-therian.png
    The Former can single target steel types with Earth Power and the latter can Intimidate physical attackers and hit them with EQ albeit you have to protect your Deoxys-Attack.
  • gengar-mega.png
    Gengar-Mega only hits Mega Metagross but makes up for it by hitting other common checks to Deo-Attack such as Bulky Tapu Fini. This is an unconventional pick so make sure you have a plan when using Gengar-Mega
  • zygarde.png
    Zygarde can hit almost any Steel Type in the metagame and can also set up. While Deoxys-Attack is taking out one of your opponent's pokemon. Zygarde can set up either Coil or Dragon Dance and attempt to nuke with Groundium-Z or spam Thousands-Arrows
  • volcarona.png
    or
    volcanion.png
    Both pokemon serves the same purpose whether either one is used depends on your team. If you are running a Troom team you should use Volcanion or if you're planning to set up while Deoxys-Attack is vaporizing one of your opponent's pokemon feel free to use Volcorona.


This metagame allows weather and Z-moves so being outpaced by other pokemon is common. You'll need a support pokemon that can take control of who goes first and who goes last. Here are some examples.

  • zapdos.png
    Zapdos can provide speed control using Tailwind and can also threaten bulky water types such as Suicune which might not get Ko'd by Psycho Boost. This also provides a ground immunity for your team and provides a soft check to Sun cores like Venu + Zard Y
  • sableye-mega.png
    How can Sableye provide a form of speed control? Easy, Quash. Quash forces the opponent to move last and coupled with Sableye's access to Prankster allows it to make sure Swampet-Mega doesn't take out Deoxys-Attack prematurely.
  • pelipper.png
    +
    politoed.png
    with
    kingdra.png
    +
    ludicolo.png
    If you control the weather and your opponents don't, how will they outspeed your Deoxys-Attack. Or better yet, surprise them by going full-on weather wars with them. Pelliper can also set up Tailwind and Ludicolo has access to Fake Out.


While you can deal with other weathers just fine with your speed control, how do you deal with Rain? The most dominant weather in 2v2 Doubles right now? Easy you have a rain check.

  • gyarados-mega.png
    The 1v1 Champion strikes again by being a strong check to rain teams by walling them and setting up Dragon Dances on their faces. It can also provide Intimidate support alongside its already strong Mold Breaker ability.
  • kyurem-black.png
    The lost 1v1 Champion reinstates his position, having access to speed control with Icy Wind, a powerful Fusion Bolt with its name. Kyurem-Black can threaten rain teams while supporting Deoxys-Attack.
  • milotic.png
    Can rain teams even take out what we call Gen 3's signature bulky water type? It can use Coil + Hypnosis to be extra annoying to the enemy. If Swampert + Pelliper sees this sea snake, they are doomed.

Deoxys-Attack is one of the frailest pokemon to ever see the Pokemon world. We could supplement the defensive side of the team with a steel type. It also helps not to get destroyed by other Psyspam teams.

  • ferrothorn.png
    Ferrothorn can wall Deoxys-Attack and most other offensive mons including Weather cores like Sand and Rain.
  • genesect.png
    With Choice Scarf to oppose Deoxys-Attack. Genesect is fast and deadly to metagame staples like Kyurem-Black. It can tank any resisted hit it gets
  • metagross-mega.png
    I personally never use Mega Metagross but it can be a strong physical attacker to take out bulky pokemon using its tough claws ability.


_______________________________________________
Chapter 3: Battle Use
_______________________________________________
When using Deoxys-Attack you must not forget your intention, Deoxys-Attack is used to quickly dispatch a threat to your partner. Its overwhleming strength is used to break stall teams and Balance teams. Your partners should be able to support themselves if you find Deoxys-Attack you not be that useful in a battle situtation.

Your opponent considers Deoxys-Attack a supreme threat that can destroy them in a matter of 3 turns. If you can predict that this is the mindset of your opponent you can easily counter their pair.

Threats to Deoxys-Attack:
oranguru.png
porygon2.png
camerupt-mega.png
stakataka.png
Various Trick Room Users and Abusers
excadrill.png
swampert-mega.png
tyranitar-mega.png
pelipper.png
Weather Abusers and Setters

Deoxys-Attack Threatens
charizard-mega-y.png
diancie-mega.png
gengar-mega.png
kyurem-black.png
Mid Speed Tier to Above Average Speed Tier Offense

kommo-o.png
ninetales-alola.png
zygarde.png
tapu-bulu.png
Low-Speed Tier Set Up or Utility (Stall)

These are just examples but you can get the general gist of what Deoxys-Attack is:

GOD'S #1 GLASS CANNON

Remember these words and keep dropping those helpless animals by blowing up their minds.

_______________________________________________
Chapter 4: Credits and Thanks
_________________________________________________________
Formatting Inspired by UnleashOurPassion
Content Organization Inspired by Elo Bandit Videos
Your Welcome Rumpletiltskin,​
 

Attachments

Last edited:
My opinion as a newcomer to 2v2 Doubles

Personally, when I first touched this meta it felt it had a lot of potential as to honing my teambuilder "skills". I haven't been in this meta a lot yet, so if you don't take my opinion seriously or you just have something to respond to me about what I have to say, I gladly accept it and I would love to hear your opinions as well. I promised to write my opinion on Z-Moves and that's what I will do. This won't be neither a long nor a great post such as the others I saw on this forum, but for now please bear with it. Now without further ado, let me get in the topic.

Like I stated before I am a newcomer to this meta, hence to put it simply, I am not that great at it. But I do improve. And hopefully one day I have a full fledged view on this meta. But for now, I would like to exploit this newcomer experience and talk about with the only aspect of view that this little experience to 2v2 doubles allows me to. The psychology behind Z-Moves and how I personally see them now. Z-Moves work differently in this meta influentially rather than the other metas. They can be used creatively, like a Z-Ally switch I saw the other day, but at the same time if exploiting strategies such as Ally Switch are connected with the usage of Z-moves, then people will start pondering that Z-moves are in fact supporting the 2v2 teambuilding proccess of the players, when in reality, moves like Ally Switch may be used without the help of a Z crystal. Core strategies like this aren't endorsed by Z-moves, they are influenced by them. The proccess of my thought at least when I see an opportunity of building an intresting team around this is 1) Figuring which Pokemon may use this technique more effectively 2) What will be the most effective moveset for this Pokemon 3) How can this Pokemon/it's partners can assist each other? 4) Fix as many weaknesses as possible.

But not all Z-moves are like that. Offensive Z-Move users are usually either cores to a team with other Pokemon assisting it with coverage for resisted types, Pokemon that outspeed it, etc. Offensive Z-Moves are usually used by Pokemon with good offensive stats and contrarily to 1v1, where a Pokemon can live after the foe uses a Z-Move, in 2v2, as stated before, the assistance of another mon can make difference and as such result in a 2v1 very early in the game. A lot of arguements can be made against this such as "The use of Protect can take advantage of this and use it to lure the other team", which isn't always the case, but that is not the point I am trying to prove. This mechanic forces from one hand the creation of many Z-Move cores as well many Anti Z-Move cores. In the end, I feel almost forced to use Z-Moves and to watch out for them. This much influence on a meta makes it Z-Move centric and allows hyper offensive Pokemon to look down on other weaker Pokemon that have Abilities or Moves on their arsenal that can only be exploited on the 2v2 format, abilities like Telepathy, Dancer, etc. It also forces strategies like a Follow me Suicide Pokemon, where it forces a situation of using the other Pokemon to set up or kill one of the other Pokemon to turn the battle into a 1v1. Some people may consider this a solid strategy, but it is just a way to punish Hyper Offense, creating a format close to 1v1 where there is a "secret" Rock Paper Scizzors outside of Type effectiveness and resistances, where Hyper Offensive Pokemon with High Speed tiers prevail over Lower Speed Tier Pokemon that either utilize their strong base stats, their abilities or stat set up, which in turn beat Bulky Pokemon or Stall which in their turn beat the Hyper Offensive High Speed tier Pokemon.

I stated before that this meta really helps me sharpen my sense of teambuilding,not only in the sense of weakness coverage but also make me build cores with Pokemon that can support each one and make themselves more viable and make teams where I can analyze any situation and tackle it whether I have the type advantage or not. This mentallity isn't endorsed by Z-Moves in my personal opinion, but instead there is a mentality of utilizing each Pokemon individually and supporting each Pokemon only because of coverage, never to be in the spotlight themselves.
Since I am new to the meta I will look further into this mentality and see how everyone else also perceives in what mentality should this meta be looking towards at. For now I am just happy that this community is striving to be something more, whether its a 2v2 chat or if this becomes a permanent Pokemon Showdown OM. Thank you wholeheartetly that you read this post. I apologize if I have any grammar or vocabulary mistakes, but I am in a rush as I write this for some irl stuff. (Also sorry for making this post too personal, I am not egocentric, I promise!)

I hope you have a great day! Signing off, tally
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Thank you ryyjyywyy for reminding me about this!
I'd like to bring attention to a loophole in the banlist, which is that accuracy dropping moves are allowed even though evasion boosts, and even evasion abilities are banned. Dropping the accuracy of the opponent is essentially the same as evasion boosting in 2v2 Doubles as you can't switch.
Requesting "Accuracy drop clause" to be added, i.e. accuracy dropping moves to get banned for consistency with Evasion moves clause.

Bonus replay

--------------------------------

Another forgotten about issue is Sleep Clause. I posted about it last gen, but there wasn't any real discussion.
An issue I've wanted to bring up here is Sleep Clause. Should it be added to 2v2 Doubles?
I've checked the Doubles OU suspect discussion on it a bit, and from the reading I've done so far it looks like Sleep Clause was removed to make offense more viable, and to punish low-skilled unprepared teams, justified by the fact that it's relatively easy to deal with by focusing the sleep inducer, taunting it, using aromatherapy, safety goggles, and/or safeguard.
However, in 2v2 Doubles the team is much smaller and thus has much more limited tools to deal everything.
Feel free to check the thread I linked and discuss this!
My take on it has since solidified, as 2v2 Doubles really does mean way more limited tools to deal with everything in 1 team. As such I'm requesting that Sleep Clause is added a week from now unless something that proves that there should be no Sleep Clause is brought to light within that time.

--------------------------------

Taking the opportunity to append to the Z discussion. I'd like to further address the request about listing the pokes that abuse Z.
I have already pointed out how Z affects the entire meta, and I'd like to stress that. Looking at the case solely from the perspective of which pokes become broken isn't the universal way to determine whether something should be banned. As concluded by my analyses, Z being allowed does go against what Smogon throughout the years has concluded a desirable metagame. How can the sole use of the requested list in question result in any fair conclusions when everything has access to Z? It needs to be approached like it is, a meta encompassing problem, which already is a more thorough and exhaustive approach than just listing which pokes abuse it the most. As I said in my previous post, the pokes that are the cause of the problematic situations outlined regarding Z are already the requested list. And banning any particular users won't make any of the listed issues go away.

To also further clarify how Z affects variety, as most players have noticed, currently in 2v2 Doubles everything is pushed to the extremes. You can mostly only use the bulkiest of the bulkiest and/or the strongest and fastest. For perspective, last gen allowed less bulky pokes and less extreme versions of offense to do well and not instalose. This aspect alone calls for Z to be banned in accordance with how shrunken aspects are undesirable for a metagame.
If we limit variety, or allow it be reduced, we effectively "shrink" all aspects of the metagame. A game with limited variety is boring to all but the most diehard participants. In a low-variety metagame, the best playing strategies become widely known and predictable, and participation wanes. For this reason, we should constantly strive for as much variety as possible. And, when limits to variety become apparent, the limits should be removed, if possible.
The "shrink" part has already made itself visible, which proves that variety has been reduced.

I'd like to get this issue resolved as soon as possible as it's gone on long enough, and as it hinders assessment of individual pokes and issues like terrains. As such I'm requesting that "Z moves clause" is added, i.e. Z moves to get banned, a week from now unless something that proves that Z isn't banworthy is brought to light within that time.

--------------------------------

Chloe E4 Flint The Immortal
 

Knuckstrike

Hi I'm FIREEEE
I made a viability ranking for 2v2 doubles post-Z moves. Got some input too from the community. Hopefully this'll help some players teambuild.


A+ Rank
1537211546126.png
Deoxys-A
1537212691441.png
Gyarados-Mega
1537211370715.png
Landorus-Therian
1537211752600.png
Pelipper
1537211805144.png
Swampert-Mega
1537211453532.png
Tapu Koko
1537211826524.png
Tyranitar-Mega

A Rank
1537212683631.png
Blaziken-Mega
1537211696155.png
Camerupt-Mega
1537211536966.png
Charizard-Mega-Y
1537212421123.png
Excadrill
1537211422191.png
Genesect
1537211432832.png
Kyurem-Black
1537212801562.png
Lopunny-Mega
1537212611840.png
Oranguru
1537211761253.png
Politoed
1537212577615.png
Venusaur

A- Rank
1537211338688.png
Aerodactyl-Mega
1537213286523.png
Banette-Mega
1537213105756.png
Blastoise-Mega
1537211718290.png
Celesteela
1537211398416.png
Incineroar
1537211604792.png
Kingdra
1537212847144.png
Latias-Mega
1537212868751.png
Mawile-Mega
1537213594357.png
Raichu-Alola
1537211383092.png
Tapu Fini
1537212632860.png
Thundurus
1537212709493.png
Venusaur-Mega
1537212601972.png
Whimsicott
1537211866858.png
Zeraora

B+ Rank
1537211526547.png
Aegislash
1537212891361.png
Altaria-Mega
1537213121344.png
Arcanine
1537212914159.png
Blacephalon
1537211707494.png
Chansey
1537212926834.png
Charizard-Mega-X
1537212394006.png
Cresselia
1537212404339.png
Diancie
1537211561001.png
Ferrothorn
1537212827138.png
Garchomp
1537212787855.png
Greninja
1537212943041.png
Hawlucha
1537211619105.png
Kartana
1537212838462.png
Latios-Mega
1537212958065.png
Marowak-Alola
1537212442844.png
Naganadel
1537211772610.png
Porygon-2
1537213131835.png
Primarina
1537212451858.png
Rotom-Wash
1537211791947.png
Scrafty
1537211662991.png
Stakataka
1537211840155.png
Victini
1537212362906.png
Volcanion

B Rank
1537213139189.png
Abomasnow-Mega
1537211412738.png
Amoonguss
1537213580390.png
Archeops
1537212374569.png
Azumarill
1537212972281.png
Bisharp
1537212898603.png
Dragonite
1537213547732.png
Dusclops
1537213147829.png
Entei
1537213277433.png
Gigalith
1537213393731.png
Hariyama
1537212433531.png
Heatran
1537211573960.png
Hoopa-Unbound
1537212987472.png
Medicham-Mega
1537211730543.png
Mew
1537211741893.png
Milotic
1537212564719.png
Mimikyu
1537213265315.png
Raikou
1537212556622.png
Smeargle
1537213257357.png
Talonflame
1537211444807.png
Tapu Bulu
1537212500803.png
Volcarona
1537211485427.png
Zapdos
1537211500093.png
Zygarde

B- Rank
1537213176430.png
Aggron-Mega
1537213242274.png
Dragalge
1537213008950.png
Gengar
1537211631412.png
Kommo-o
1537213195597.png
Mandibuzz
1537213465324.png
Murkrow
1537213030357.png
Sableye-Mega
1537213491158.png
Sceptile
1537213184885.png
Steelix-Mega
1537213039557.png
Terrakion
1537213617196.png
Xurkitree

C Rank
Everything else
 

Attachments

I know what the hell
sorry i think you might be
why bring up 1v1 when u can just say "does well against top threats such as sand, deoxys, landorus, etc."

Gyarados-Mega is an A tier pokemon in 2v2 Doubles and is nowhere near A+ atm unless you have some crazy shit
 
Yay, we won the OMOTM. Let’s start up discussion with..


The State of the Metagame.


The metagame is in a weird place right now. Z Moves have recently gotten banned, so the metagame is Way More bulkier without 'mons that can straight up OHKO due to Z allowing them to, and Pinch Berries look like a better choice right about now, along with resist berries being better. My only problem is,is that there are a lot of things to prep for. Let me put all of them in order of most threatening.

Rain: Although this is probably one of the easiest to weather change, this weather has arguably the most options of all of them, being able to run every Tapu with success, along with huge abusers in Mega Swampert and Kingdra. The only thing i see kinda bad with it is the fact that it doesn't have much counter-play (besides just running rain dance) against Mega weather setters, but its great nevertheless.

Electric Terrain Spam: Even I find it surprising that i’m ranking this over sun, but I gotta say, this is great. Even though teambuilding is kinda restricting, in a sense, as you always have to run Tapu-Koko, The 3 big abusers in Zeraora, Alolan Raichu, and Hawluncha, more than make up for that.

Sun: Sun is Pretty good. For the fact it has a Mega weather setter, it usually has at least one turn against rain to destroy, which is good. It has the most setters of every play style besides trick room. It does lack some good stab abusers with speed control, though.

Trick Room: This Play style really reminds me of Landorus-Incarnate From Generation 6 OU, lurking in the shadows, getting stronger as everything else gets banned… But this can arguably be better than sun, With the most Setters and abusers of every terrain/weather archetype in the Tier, Trick room is very flexible, which is what I like most.

Sand/Hail: I Rank these two at the same level, as they don't really have as much as an impact ans sun or rain, lacking that 1.5x Boost to their moves. They do have slow mega rain setters, which makes them pretty good,.

Zeraora: I cannot stress how good this 'mon is. It has an excellent match up vs rain, a great Electric Terrain abuser with a spammable Electric move in Plasma fists, and The fastest fake out in the tier.

Lopunny-Mega: Another Very fast mon, able to wall-break and remove threats.

Deoxys Attack
: This ‘mon has great offensive utility, pair this up with fake out users and you are set.

Kyuerum-Black: Easily one of the best 'mons in the tier with a great offensive typing, and a multitude of sets.

See ya on ladder!
 
I made a viability ranking for 2v2 doubles post-Z moves. Got some input too from the community. Hopefully this'll help some players teambuild.


A+ Rank
View attachment 136368Deoxys-A
View attachment 136408Gyarados-Mega
View attachment 136356Landorus-Therian
View attachment 136383Pelipper
View attachment 136387Swampert-Mega
View attachment 136363Tapu Koko
View attachment 136388Tyranitar-Mega

A Rank
View attachment 136407Blaziken-Mega
View attachment 136378Camerupt-Mega
View attachment 136367Charizard-Mega-Y
View attachment 136396Excadrill
View attachment 136360Genesect
View attachment 136361Kyurem-Black
View attachment 136411Lopunny-Mega
View attachment 136405Oranguru
View attachment 136384Politoed
View attachment 136403Venusaur

A- Rank
View attachment 136355Aerodactyl-Mega
View attachment 136442Banette-Mega
View attachment 136430Blastoise-Mega
View attachment 136380Celesteela
View attachment 136358Incineroar
View attachment 136371Kingdra
View attachment 136414Latias-Mega
View attachment 136415Mawile-Mega
View attachment 136448Raichu-Alola
View attachment 136357Tapu Fini
View attachment 136406Thundurus
View attachment 136409Venusaur-Mega
View attachment 136404Whimsicott
View attachment 136391Zeraora

B+ Rank
View attachment 136366Aegislash
View attachment 136417Altaria-Mega
View attachment 136431Arcanine
View attachment 136419Blacephalon
View attachment 136379Chansey
View attachment 136420Charizard-Mega-X
View attachment 136394Cresselia
View attachment 136395Diancie
View attachment 136369Ferrothorn
View attachment 136412Garchomp
View attachment 136410Greninja
View attachment 136421Hawlucha
View attachment 136372Kartana
View attachment 136413Latios-Mega
View attachment 136422Marowak-Alola
View attachment 136398Naganadel
View attachment 136385Porygon-2
View attachment 136432Primarina
View attachment 136399Rotom-Wash
View attachment 136386Scrafty
View attachment 136375Stakataka
View attachment 136389Victini
View attachment 136392Volcanion

B Rank
View attachment 136433Abomasnow-Mega
View attachment 136359Amoonguss
View attachment 136447Archeops
View attachment 136393Azumarill
View attachment 136423Bisharp
View attachment 136418Dragonite
View attachment 136446Dusclops
View attachment 136434Entei
View attachment 136441Gigalith
View attachment 136443Hariyama
View attachment 136397Heatran
View attachment 136370Hoopa-Unbound
View attachment 136424Medicham-Mega
View attachment 136381Mew
View attachment 136382Milotic
View attachment 136402Mimikyu
View attachment 136440Raikou
View attachment 136401Smeargle
View attachment 136439Talonflame
View attachment 136362Tapu Bulu
View attachment 136400Volcarona
View attachment 136364Zapdos
View attachment 136365Zygarde

B- Rank
View attachment 136435Aggron-Mega
View attachment 136438Dragalge
View attachment 136425Gengar
View attachment 136373Kommo-o
View attachment 136437Mandibuzz
View attachment 136444Murkrow
View attachment 136426Sableye-Mega
View attachment 136445Sceptile
View attachment 136436Steelix-Mega
View attachment 136427Terrakion
View attachment 136449Xurkitree

C Rank
Everything else
Got a few noms here.

Mega Medicham B -> B+.
This thing has so many cool tactics. Aromatisse and this can do a very cool After You Focus Punch combo, so if Medi can tank a hit they win. That Huge Power makes Focus Punch break through literally everything. Very annoying tactic to go up against. This can also play a similar role to Deo-A, except without the speed.

Haryiama B -> B+.
Oranguru. This thing really appreciates Trick Room, and Instruct can give a Cross Chop to OHKO a lot of things. I’ve literally faced a gren Inca and Kyub with this tactic. Go figure. It’s 144 HP boasts relatively good bulk, so speed (TR), attacking power (Instruct) and bulk. Hmmm, definitely needs a rise, especially after Z-Moves being banned.

Rotom-Wash B+ -> B- or C
Its main role in OU is a slow pivot, which is useful in 6v6. This isn’t 6v6. I have no clue why it’s ranked there, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. What can it do. With its mediocre bulk, 0 offensive utility, and nothing to benefit its partner, what is it doing in B+?

Anyway, we won OMotM yay. I’m hungry and tired so I’m gonna write the rest up later.
 
Hi everyone I just peaked the ladder and thought I'd share the two teams I used to do so.
1538773494142.png


The first team is a team built around mega-metagross+hydreigon with tailwind as speed control.
Landorus helps with the sand, sun and electric spam matchup and pairs well with hydreigon wich allows it to click earthquake freely.
The evs on landorus allow it to take a blast burn off zardy in sun the speed allows it to outspeed max speed venusaur when it isnt running timid.
The rest is dumped into attack for a solid damage output.
The last member is primarina wich rounds out the dragon/fairy/steel core. Primarina is mainly here to help out with the rain matchup.
The evs allow it to live life orb zeraora plasma fists under electric terrain.




The second team I built around Mega-Zardy+AV lando wich is a really solid core in general. I then added AV Kyurem to help vs rain and opposing Landorus-t koko was added to scare water types even more and boost kyurems fusion bolt. I wanted a bulkier zardy that could live a hit comfortably especially when paired with intimidate support and get up tailwind reliably. The ev spread on landorus is the same as the one used in team 1 koko is max speed and the kyurem is a standard doubles ev spread.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
2v2 Doubles is Other Metagame of this month (!!!), and that has given me a chance to further my experience with weather, allowing me to further confirm whether weather is a true problem. And I am pretty confident right now that weather is a problem that needs to be dealt with.
As previously brought up, a solution to the weather problem would be for weather to take a hit in some form. The options at first look are are banning some or all weather inducing abilities or banning some or all weather induced speed boosting abilities. I will try to analyze why insta weather is a problem.

Insta Weather

In general

Reasons:
  • Massive benefits
  • Instant benefits
Costs:
  • 1 ability slot / team
  • Opposing side could get the benefits too
Issues:
  • Clear edge over non weather teams
  • No turn cost
Consequences:
  • Overcentralization
Sun

Benefits:
  • Boosted fire damage
    • Issues: A damage boost for the cost of 1 ability slot / team. Can be combined with other damage boosts. Gives an edge to the users, which is a contributing factor to centralization.
  • Reduced water damage
    • Issues: Gives a pseudo resist for the cost of 1 ability slot / team. Water weak pokes, especially fire types, which already are gaining boosted damage, potentially get 1 less group of answers.
  • No charge turn on Solar Beam
    • Issues: Basically a damage doubler when it under normal conditions takes a turn to charge.
  • Activates Chlorophyll, Solar Power
    • Issues: Chlorophyll provides near unmatched speed, and when there's no setup turn needed it puts strain on teambuilding, which is a contributing factor to centralization. Solar Power might not be the largest priority in teambuilding, but is still a threat that has an edge thanks to no turn cost for its activation.
Relevant pokes: Char-Y, Ninetales, Venusaur, Torkoal, Lilligant, Houndoom-M


Rain

Benefits:
  • Boosted water damage
    • Issues: Same as with boosted fire damage in Sun.
  • Reduced fire damage
    • Issues: Gives a pseudo resist for the cost of 1 ability slot / team.
  • Activates Swift Swim, Rain Dish, Dry Skin
    • Issues: Same as with Chlorophyll in Sun. Rain Dish and Dry Skin aren't noteworthy strains on teambuilding.
  • Perfect accuracy for Hurricane, Thunder
    • Issues: Using Hurricane and Thunder without Rain up is a huge risk that isn't a part of good strategy when most pokes that get them get other, more accurate attacks. The accuracy deficiency combined with the weather condition is a balancing factor for these high BP attacks. Therefore it's huge when you can get access to the perfect accuracy versions of the attacks at turn 1 in a metagame where battles are the shortest of the shortest and there's no switching. Not to mention how good offensive types they are. A contributing factor to centralization.
Relevant pokes: Kingdra, Politoed, Ludicolo, Pelipper, Mega-Swampert


Sand

Benefits:
  • Boosted SpD for rock types
    • Issues: Not the largest strain on teambuilding, but still provides an edge in battles.
  • Activates Sand Rush, Sand Force
    • Issues: Same as with the speed boosting abilities with the other weathers.
Relevant pokes: Tyranitar, Excadrill, Stoutland


Hail

Benefits:
  • Activates Ice Body and Slush Rush
    • Issues: Same as with the speed boosting abilities with the other weathers, but the user(s) might not as big of a threat as the other weathers speed boosters. Ice Body isn't a noteworthy strain on teambuilding.
  • Perfect accuracy for Blizzard
    • Issues: Same as with Hurricane and Thunder in Rain. Largest issue with Hail.
  • Allows Aurora Veil to be used
    • Issues: Great defensive boosts which save moveslots if you want the double defensive boosts (dual screen), but at the cost of not having as high boosts.
Relevant pokes: Mega-Abomasnow, Ninetales-Alola, Sandslash-Alola, Porygon-Z, Kyurem

Discussion
If weather inducing abilities are banned, the pokes with the speed boosting abilities will need a turn while a partner sets the weather. Played around with Protect, which causes 50/50's, but in general seems to be the option with most counterplay as setting weather can be prevented by KO or Taunt for example. Prankster can get around that if not facing Fake Out, but the Prankster pokes come with their own limitations. If the speed boosting abilities are banned, then the weathers are still able to instantly reap the benefits of types being boosted / debuffed and moves hitting with perfect accuracy / no charge turn, which was almost equally as important as the speed buff, if not more important in some cases.
For the sake of variety, I believe it's the weather inducing abilities that should be taking the hit, not the speed boosting abilities. The reason being that the speed isn't the sole issue with facing weather. Banning speed boosting abilities would only help fast pokes that can also OHKO the speed boosters, which leaves everything else in the shadow of weather. Weather would absolutely still have an edge in the metagame, as outlined in this post, which would cause the issue that we're trying to tackle, overcentralization, to persist.

Requesting that, pending details, weather inducing abilities are subject to bans after discussion here, with conclusion coming 2 weeks from now at the latest. E4 Flint The Immortal
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
hard disagree'ing! Weather doesn't 4-0 every team there is unless ur another weather. You should know that.
No one implied that. An edge means what it means, a slight to moderate advantage.

I don't see landorus-therian getting intimidate removed from it because it's overcentralizing
Is it really overcentralizing though? I can't speak for others, but Lando-T is way less of a priority in teambuilding for me than weather. For example, weather has such an impact that ppl are using Cloud Nine, which doesn't have the most varied users, not to mention the questionable strength/quality of the users. Something like every other team in the metagame has some form of weather, be it as a main strat or as a counter to weather.
The point is that, if Lando-T really is overcentralizing, then weather is something like at least 4 times as much.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top