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Main issue is the three turn set-up. I assume most players, or at least I would, is going to look to U-Turn to safety the moment you use either Anchor Shot or Perish Song and you need two turns to use both before you can Electrify. You could just Anchor and PP stall U-Turn with Electrify, but you can only do that once since both moves have identical PP. The strategy also flounders against faster opponents (the speed control measures help though). Either way, I think the set would struggle to perform consistently.
If you manage to pull it off though, it's a pretty huge punish.
Main issue is the three turn set-up. I assume most players, or at least I would, is going to look to U-Turn to safety the moment you use either Anchor Shot or Perish Song and you need two turns to use both before you can Electrify. You could just Anchor and PP stall U-Turn with Electrify, but you can only do that once since both moves have identical PP. The strategy also flounders against faster opponents (the speed control measures help though). Either way, I think the set would struggle to perform consistently.
If you manage to pull it off though, it's a pretty huge punish.
How does Spiky Shield help more? It scouts and guarantees a turn of healing, but it's predictable every other turn. If you have Nuzzle allies, while using Electrify, you can also hax for the paralysis hoping they cannot move when they U-turn as you use Perish Song (after Anchor Shot). If that happens, they cannot ever switch out since you follow-up with more Electrifies on the slower foe.
Sometimes people think they can U-Turn later and don't do it right away, Blocking Volt Switch, Parting Shot, and U-turn in 1 Perish Trapping set is pretty cool. Plus it stops Dragon Tail, and Circle Throw as well.
With only Baton Pass as a guaranteed exit, it's like they cannot escape at all if they don't escape the first turn. Further Electrify can PP stall strong moves, like say you Nuzzled a Magic Guard Light of Ruin Diancie-Mega, if they send it in on the turn you send in Zygarde-Complete, you can Electrify them and save yourself each turn on their low PP moves, since you always outspeed.
I dunno, I have no real comments on the setpedia version. I've never ran it and I end to either bail, Taunt, or shuffle Zygarde away if it uses Anchor Waves on me. So if it traps something of mine, I've either screwed up playing or I screwed up building.
Electrify does have merit, not saying it doesn't. I mean, if you pull the set off, it's GG for your target in most cases. But it does have its problems that don't make it a clear "this is better". If it is setpedia worthy, I'd just slash it on Slot 4 rather than replace the whole set, and perhaps slash the speed differences since yours and the Setpedia version are nearly identical otherwise.
Though if you really wanna use Electrify, I say go revive the old Gen 6 Lightning Rod Mega-Gengar set!
I dunno, I have no real comments on the setpedia version. I've never ran it and I end to either bail, Taunt, or shuffle Zygarde away if it uses Anchor Waves on me. So if it traps something of mine, I've either screwed up playing or I screwed up building.
Electrify does have merit, not saying it doesn't. I mean, if you pull the set off, it's GG for your target in most cases. But it does have its problems that don't make it a clear "this is better". If it is setpedia worthy, I'd just slash it on Slot 4 rather than replace the whole set, and perhaps slash the speed differences since yours and the Setpedia version are nearly identical otherwise.
Though if you really wanna use Electrify, I say go revive the old Gen 6 Lightning Rod Mega-Gengar set!
The problem with the Mega Gengar Light Rod is that it must be used each turn, so it won’t block Priority, but it could also work with Poison Heal strategies where you have a Ground type that uses Electrify and the foe is unable to hurt it, and you can hide behind Substitute to stall off the damage from using Substitute.
Norm Gar works because if you get them on the switch their priority is doing 0 to Gengar due to immunity.
I didn’t mean to come across as defensive, I do feel the set offers something the other one doesn’t: Prevention on all escape methods besides Whirlwind or Baton Pass.
You just have to Anchor Shot them on the switch in and Perish Song them. If you predict they will U-Turn when you Perish Song, then use Electrify until they start using other moves and then Perish Song.
I don’t think it should replace the one on the Setpedia, just something the other doesn’t. I would keep it a separate set due to the Speed difference and the different play style. Parting Shot and Spiky Shield are for escaping or causing minute damage every other turn, while Electrify is to block most attacks.
giratina-o ur to d
gira o is, imo, a viable alternative to its altered counterpart. the increased offensive stats + griseous orb boost give it a legitimate niche because it mostly handles the same stuff defensively but actually packs a punch. you can use it in the same slot that youd put gira a on a team that likes its offensive pressure.
252 Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Spell Tag Giratina Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 126-148 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 72.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Giratina Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 105-124 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
with audino dropping in viability, some teams are legitimately not prepared for this mon's attacks, so you can take advantage of that. the set i've been using is magic bounce with spectral/core/recover/filler (not sure how to beat imposter). try this guy out he's pretty good.
blacephalon ur to d
ok ive been playing around with mold breaker blace and its actually super good. the set is as follows:
so moldy blace is like a frailer, slower, and slightly weaker (on the special side) gar, except it has the benefit of killing stuff that would normally survive a hit from gar and cripple or kill in return thanks to good typing and attack. first off, it does super well vs stall because fc chans just dies to +2 moldy vcreate:
+2 252 Atk Blacephalon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 765-901 (108.6 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
the first move is what really holds this mon back, you want to run all of the moves at once. that being said, each move is good at doing what it's supposed to:
+2 252 Atk Blacephalon Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gyarados-Mega: 384-452 (97.4 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (ogre dies too, obviously)
+2 252+ SpA Blacephalon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 720-848 (113.2 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
stab vcreate somewhat makes up for the loss of poison stab:
+2 252 Atk Blacephalon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 472-556 (103.7 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Blacephalon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 342-404 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (this is huge, you can set up on all steels unless psea or prank dbond)
The Role compendium on the first page of this thread has checks listed to a few specific threats, but it's not exactly exhaustive and because it's not been updated as actively as the setpedia/vr it is somewhat outdated. It also has some general checks listed (setup checks for example) which may or may not be useful to you.
You can also check analyses where they exist - and even unfinished ones with 1+ QC checks are gonna be pretty good - since these list checks and counters, although this is a bit time consuming to do for every mon.
The Role Compendium is probably something that needs updating and expanding it's just a matter of everyone finding the time to do it. I'll look into doing something about it if I remember.
Since Zovrah released his stats spreadsheet I might as well post two spreadsheets I have worked on with the help of moro and sl.
This is the Viability Rankings for each Type, going from S rank to C rank, with no subranks. The Pokemon on this VR are ranked based on their usefulness for that type (e.g. No one normally uses Yveltal as a Flying Type but many people use it as a Dark Type)
This is the Viability Rankings for Individual Sets of Pokemon, going from S rank to Niche Rank, including subranks. Each viable set is ranked, with the Pokemon's viability on the VR being the the viability of the best set of that Pokemon. This VR covers all the Pokemon before the C-Ranks.
Since Zovrah released his stats spreadsheet I might as well post two spreadsheets I have worked on with the help of moro and sl.
This is the Viability Rankings for each Type, going from S rank to C rank, with no subranks. The Pokemon on this VR are ranked based on their usefulness for that type (e.g. No one normally uses Yveltal as a Flying Type but many people use it as a Dark Type)
This is the Viability Rankings for Individual Sets of Pokemon, going from S rank to Niche Rank, including subranks. Each viable set is ranked, with the Pokemon's viability on the VR being the the viability of the best set of that Pokemon. This VR covers all the Pokemon before the C-Ranks.
Wow, I am surprised you included Meloetta and Darmanitan-Z, I think it’s useful for people to quickly reference which set they can use for the most success and to distinguish which type is the reason for people to use Pokémon, afterall, no one wants to add too many Pokémon that share the weaknesses, so now people can just view the Pokemon of a specific type and see a list of viable Pokemon.
Hehe whoops guess thisll be better suited here. Youve probs all already read this btw
Zovrah said:
I've been worked on this for a while now, took way longer than it had any right to. It's every mon ranked on vr placed on a purely stat based scale. The only semi-questionable thing on here, imo, are the Phys/Spec “Power” scales. The way i have this calculated is essentially the damage a mon is outputting on a single health bar. The reason I think it would be questioned is because Mega Diancie it ranked below Giratina on this. I thought this was weird too. Thinking on it, I realized that it does make sense. On a single health bar (no heals) Diancie dies really fucking fast, especially compared to gira. Not to mention that Diancie is always pumping out high powered moves to do valuable damage. But if you've ever used a non-pixi/mguard diancie, you know it's damage over the battle is underwhelming.
I want to do more with this, such as factor in types too. The issue with that is that to factor in types I'd have to do one of two things: Create a ranking for each type+type combos based off of weaknesses,resistances, and immunities, or the bh community would need to agree on how good certain types are. The issue with the first is that it likely won't reflect how good those types are within the meta, while with the second the issue is I doubt the community can (or more probable, wants to) attempt to make a “type viability ranking”. Honestly, I have no idea if and where this can be used, but I hope some of y'all nerds at least find it interesting.
Harvass out
Would it be possible to order it by highest to lowest in the columns? This would make it easier for someone to find Pokémon with the highest points for the scale on Bulk - Defense, Power - Special, mixed defenses / offenses, and then an overall factor with it all combined.
I think for Typing you could just do it defensively, based on resistances and immunities a Type receives and add a point amount for that. For example: Steels resist 9 types and have 1 immunity, so Registeel could get points for its resistances and Immunity. Perhaps add .25 to Defense/Special Defense for their resistance, .5 for a double resist, and .75 for an immunity, and take away the same for their weakness/double weakness. This would mean Registeel would get a 2.25 point boost (+ 3 - .75) because of its 9 Resists, 1 Immunity and 3 weaknesses.
It may seem like too much work, but it would matter if something has the same Bulk stats but a different typing than other Pokémon.
Offensively might be too hard because you use more than your STAB attacks.
rayquaza has 100 defenses, not 110. Why do regigigas and slaking have different Physical Power? is this like against imposter and they are fighting themselves?
realizing this is actually a bad way to describe it. More specifically, how much damage somethings doing before it dies. DIancie/TIna point still works, as if diancie is constantly pumping out a 100 bp fairy move its gonna be doing less damage overall than tina constantly pumping out core enforcers.
rayquaza has 100 defenses, not 110. Why do regigigas and slaking have different Physical Power? is this like against imposter and they are fighting themselves?
fixed. Also Physical power is the product of Atk*Spe(MixedBulk)
Regigigas has better overall bulk than slak, so on average it's doing more damage than slak. As you can tell though, not very much
Would it be possible to order it by highest to lowest in the columns? This would make it easier for someone to find Pokémon with the highest points for the scale on Bulk - Defense, Power - Special, mixed defenses / offenses, and then an overall factor with it all combined.
I think for Typing you could just do it defensively, based on resistances and immunities a Type receives and add a point amount for that. For example: Steels resist 9 types and have 1 immunity, so Registeel could get points for its resistances and Immunity. Perhaps add .25 to Defense/Special Defense for their resistance, .5 for a double resist, and .75 for an immunity, and take away the same for their weakness/double weakness. This would mean Registeel would get a 2.25 point boost (+ 3 - .75) because of its 9 Resists, 1 Immunity and 3 weaknesses.
It may seem like too much work, but it would matter if something has the same Bulk stats but a different typing than other Pokémon.
Offensively might be too hard because you use more than your STAB attacks.
Someone somewhere asked me what happens when you mix Water Absorb, Liquid Voice, and Perish Song.
Well, we know Liquid Voice changes Perish Song to Water type. However, Water Absorb doesn't absorb your own Water type moves, so it won't absorb Aqua Ring or Withdraw, and it also won't absorb Water type Heal Bell or Perish Song.
Your partner's Water Absorb will of course absorb your Liquid Voice Perish Song, but that already works in standard Doubles play.
I am quoting this here because it might be an option for someone to consider using Liquid Voice on Kyogre-Primal, etc. if they want to Imposterproof with Red Orb Groudon:
So if you wanted to use say Boomburst, Parting Shot, Perish Song, and Whirlpool, but didn’t want to throw rely on Soundproof, a Red Orb Groudon could be an option thanks to Desolate Land, especially if it packs Thousand Waves to trap Imposter.
I am quoting this here because it might be an option for someone to consider using Liquid Voice on Kyogre-Primal, etc. if they want to Imposterproof with Red Orb Groudon:
So if you wanted to use say Boomburst, Parting Shot, Perish Song, and Whirlpool, but didn’t want to throw rely on Soundproof, a Red Orb Groudon could be an option thanks to Desolate Land, especially if it packs Thousand Waves to trap Imposter.
Apologies if I've misunderstood you, but don't forget that Desolate Land won't stop Water-type status moves, so the Liquid Voice Perish Song will still take effect, although of course Whirlpool can't be used to trap you.
I honestly feel like I should bring it up since I am somewhat confused by this. Why hasn't there been any VR activity at all? We haven't had any VR updates since August despite many people nominating dozens of Pokemon. The meta has drastically changed. Mega Mewtwo X is a lot better now, for example. Also feels like the VR is a victim of artifacts. No one uses Lunala any more. No one ever will use Lunala again. Dawn Wings took its spot and even then I'm not sure if it should be ranked C over D. Deoxys-S is a mon that hasn't really had any serious use in ages. A lot of sets in the SetPedia which aren't really used at all because the SetPedia gets updated even less frequently than the VR and is an even worse victim of artifacts. Who uses RegenVest Hoopa-U? Non-PH Xerneas doesn't sound very viable. I haven't ever seen any Kartana sets other than Band and Unburden. PH setup Zygarde-C sounds like a joke.
I've also seen people say that the current VR format doesn't really work out well despite the recent redesign which I honestly agree. There are very few legitimately bad Pokemon in this metagame unlike what C or D Rank implies. Most Pokemon are niche rather than bad and I feel like the VR does not convey this well.
Are there going to be any large scale updates to the VR and possibly the SetPedia?
This is mostly my fault and I apologize for the big delay. I had planned an update a couple weeks ago but due to some personal commitments I’ve not had the time. However, this should hopefully change in around a week’s time so I will catch up on resource and banlist activities again. Once again I am sorry for the delay everyone.
This is mostly my fault and I apologize for the big delay. I had planned an update a couple weeks ago but due to some personal commitments I’ve not had the time. However, this should hopefully change in around a week’s time so I will catch up on resource and banlist activities again. Once again I am sorry for the delay everyone.
You are a one man show, no worries! I’m officially promoting you from E4 Flint to “Champion Flint”.
*Bestows a King’s Rock*.
You deserve it during this huge push for new content and I appreciate all you have done! Everyone round of applause and a standing ovation for Champion Flint.
That's reasonable. Take as much time as you need. I still feel like we should take an in-depth look at the VR and SetPedia as well as improve them for 2019. Many Pokemon which are ranked low right now like...
Mega Beedrill is an excellent check to Mega Mewtwo Y as well as a formidable Choice Band Pokemon with a very strong U-turn.
Palkia is an astronomically powerful Pokemon in rain that threatens Dragon-types that would normally wall Water-type attacks.
Hoopa-U has an incredibly powerful Hustle wallbreaker set which abuses the fact that Hyperspace Fury always hits.
Cresselia is very passive, but one of the only counters to Mega Mewtwo X there is, a Pokemon which is becoming increasingly more threatening.
Regirock is a fantastic wall under Sand with a 200 base Defense and a Sand-boosted 100 base Special Defense. It's a great Sand Stream Pokemon.
...just to name some examples. These Pokemon are fantastic in the right scenario, except they're ranked low in the VR which brings the implication that they aren't very good, especially to newer players. I feel like a lot of these Pokemon in general are ranked low because they rely on weather, which is somewhat unfair considering that weather hasn't really been explored by many people at all this gen. Weather can be one of the most threatening things you can possibly face yet it's often overlooked for fast Pokemon like Mewtwo and Mega Gengar as well as bulky setup sweepers. The VR should probably have its definition changed or have definitions for its ranks so that newer players don't get the wrong idea.
As for the SetPedia, I've seen some people argue that it should be a encyclopedia of all sets that have existed in Gen 7. I disagree with that. It is a resource for players to build teams, and having artifacts or downright unviable sets would defeat the purpose of this resource. While some intermediate and many more experienced players would be able to tell what is and isn't viable right off the bat, many newer players wouldn't be able to tell. I've seen people use Refrigerate Zekrom, RegenVest Hoopa-U, PH setup Zygarde-C, and other sets like these that are no longer viable. It happens incredibly often in low ladder. Stuff like PH setup Zygarde-C isn't even niche, it flat out does not have a use and winning with these sets just means you either got lucky or you outplayed your opponent and you are more importantly handicapping yourself by using it.
One last thing. The Role Compendium should probably get an update too. It doesn't even cover any sort of weather Pokemon at all and it also has some artifacts. I'll go ahead and make some suggestions myself to start out.
These suggestions are going by descending order.
Remove: Adaptability (unused ability, likely artifact); Add: Hustle (better than Adaptability due to Hyperspace Fury never missing)
Remove: Regenerator (unused ability, likely artifact), Pixilate (likely unpopular suggestion, but Pixilate Xerneas is unused and is worse than Mega Diancie), Contrary (unused ability, not really viable)
Remove: Sheer Force (unused ability, sounds good in theory but probably not great in practice); Add: Tinted Lens (good wallbreaking ability), Primordial Sea (same with Tinted Lens), Unaware Get rid of Skill Link. It's not used any more. Remove Pheromosa and Kyurem-B from that spot.
Remove: Tough Claws (I have literally never seen tc Slaking/Gigas even once), APS (I've seen it used. Doesn't mean I think it's remotely viable.) Add Mega Beedrill and give it APS (DQM) as well as Tough Claws.
Remove: Contrary (not really used);Add: Magic Guard (it should have its own subsection because Mind Blown was recently added and its a very good move)
Remove: Poison Heal from the setup section. ZYGARDE IS NOT A SETUP SWEEPER.
Replace everything with Dawn Wings. Lunala is inferior to Dawn Wings.
Remove: Simple (really bad compared to its other sets); Add: Tinted Lens, Magic Guard, No Guard (should be added to SetPedia too, hasn't been yet for some reason but it's a legitimately viable ability) Remove Marshadow and Mega Pidgeot. They aren't viable any more.
Can't post any more images right now. Other than that, I'd say remove Trash-Greninja from Unburden and add Necrozma-DM to the role compendium with Unburden, Regenerator, and Flash Fire. I'll probably add more suggestions for defensive Pokemon soon. Probably.
As for the SetPedia, I've seen some people argue that it should be a encyclopedia of all sets that have existed in Gen 7. I disagree with that. It is a resource for players to build teams, and having artifacts or downright unviable sets would defeat the purpose of this resource.
What about partitioning old sets into an "old set" section or otherwise tagging them as "deprecated" or such? I like the idea of having an archive of the older sets, since those sets can make interesting starting points for experimenting. We already have "Viable" and "Other" sections, so there's a bit of precedent for keeping them around without cluttering the meta options.
That's reasonable. Take as much time as you need. I still feel like we should take an in-depth look at the VR and SetPedia as well as improve them for 2019. Many Pokemon which are ranked low right now like...
Mega Beedrill is an excellent check to Mega Mewtwo Y as well as a formidable Choice Band Pokemon with a very strong U-turn.
Palkia is an astronomically powerful Pokemon in rain that threatens Dragon-types that would normally wall Water-type attacks.
Hoopa-U has an incredibly powerful Hustle wallbreaker set which abuses the fact that Hyperspace Fury always hits.
Cresselia is very passive, but one of the only counters to Mega Mewtwo X there is, a Pokemon which is becoming increasingly more threatening.
Regirock is a fantastic wall under Sand with a 200 base Defense and a Sand-boosted 100 base Special Defense. It's a great Sand Stream Pokemon.
...just to name some examples. These Pokemon are fantastic in the right scenario, except they're ranked low in the VR which brings the implication that they aren't very good, especially to newer players. I feel like a lot of these Pokemon in general are ranked low because they rely on weather, which is somewhat unfair considering that weather hasn't really been explored by many people at all this gen. Weather can be one of the most threatening things you can possibly face yet it's often overlooked for fast Pokemon like Mewtwo and Mega Gengar as well as bulky setup sweepers. The VR should probably have its definition changed or have definitions for its ranks so that newer players don't get the wrong idea.
As for the SetPedia, I've seen some people argue that it should be a encyclopedia of all sets that have existed in Gen 7. I disagree with that. It is a resource for players to build teams, and having artifacts or downright unviable sets would defeat the purpose of this resource. While some intermediate and many more experienced players would be able to tell what is and isn't viable right off the bat, many newer players wouldn't be able to tell. I've seen people use Refrigerate Zekrom, RegenVest Hoopa-U, PH setup Zygarde-C, and other sets like these that are no longer viable. It happens incredibly often in low ladder. Stuff like PH setup Zygarde-C isn't even niche, it flat out does not have a use and winning with these sets just means you either got lucky or you outplayed your opponent and you are more importantly handicapping yourself by using it.
One last thing. The Role Compendium should probably get an update too. It doesn't even cover any sort of weather Pokemon at all and it also has some artifacts. I'll go ahead and make some suggestions myself to start out.
These suggestions are going by descending order.
Remove: Adaptability (unused ability, likely artifact); Add: Hustle (better than Adaptability due to Hyperspace Fury never missing)
Remove: Regenerator (unused ability, likely artifact), Pixilate (likely unpopular suggestion, but Pixilate Xerneas is unused and is worse than Mega Diancie), Contrary (unused ability, not really viable)
Remove: Sheer Force (unused ability, sounds good in theory but probably not great in practice); Add: Tinted Lens (good wallbreaking ability), Primordial Sea (same with Tinted Lens), Unaware Get rid of Skill Link. It's not used any more. Remove Pheromosa and Kyurem-B from that spot.
Remove: Tough Claws (I have literally never seen tc Slaking/Gigas even once), APS (I've seen it used. Doesn't mean I think it's remotely viable.) Add Mega Beedrill and give it APS (DQM) as well as Tough Claws.
Remove: Contrary (not really used);Add: Magic Guard (it should have its own subsection because Mind Blown was recently added and its a very good move)
Remove: Poison Heal from the setup section. ZYGARDE IS NOT A SETUP SWEEPER.
Replace everything with Dawn Wings. Lunala is inferior to Dawn Wings.
Remove: Simple (really bad compared to its other sets); Add: Tinted Lens, Magic Guard, No Guard (should be added to SetPedia too, hasn't been yet for some reason but it's a legitimately viable ability) Remove Marshadow and Mega Pidgeot. They aren't viable any more.
Can't post any more images right now. Other than that, I'd say remove Trash-Greninja from Unburden and add Necrozma-DM to the role compendium with Unburden, Regenerator, and Flash Fire. I'll probably add more suggestions for defensive Pokemon soon. Probably.
I agree with your main points on updating and removing, but I do not completely agree on the specific sets you mentioned for the removal of Role Compendum Pokemon, and I just want to highlight how a few of the suggested removals listed could be explained to keep:
Adaptability on Hoopa-U does not help Hyperspace Fury as much as Hustle, but you risk missing with Hustle with any other Attack besides Hyperspace Fury, such as Photon Geyser (say Shedinja switches in and your Photon Geyser misses while it proceeds to Endeavor + Extreme Speed you).
Adaptability works well because Hoopa-U has the stats to mix sweep: and using Hyperspace, Photon, Pursuit and a Filler let’s it take advantage of its higher SpA for Photon and threaten with its other STAB move options like Pursuit or even Sucker Punch. It’s better to have Adaptability + Life Orb than Hustle and Life Orb bc 20% of the time to miss on something fragile means that you risked getting KOed for no other reason than an ability’s drawback. I think Hustle needs more never-miss moves to ensure it works well as Smart Strike and Vital Throw are too low at their current Base power of 70 to be worthwhile, while the rest are 60 Base power physical attacks. Lack of STAB also hurts. Feint Attack is weaker than Hyperspace Fury and Hyperspace Hole is a Special Attack.
For the record, as I went through bulbapedia for all never miss moves, one surprise positive I saw was that since Gen 3 Pursuit will never miss if used when an opponent is switching out (or if they are faster than Hoopa-U and use U-Turn, Parting Shot, or Volt Switch), so that can be another consideration for Hustle sets.
What would you propose the Hustle set to include? Just setup moves with the only Attack being Hyperspace Fury? What item?
If it has Life Orb, you might as well just use Ash-Greninja with Choice Band and Adaptability since it is faster and can use any Dark move like Pursuit and Knock Off or even a surprise Sucker Punch for MMY. If Focus Sash and Shell Smash, you may as well give it Simple or Dazzling.
I assume for Choice Band:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 596-704 (118.2 - 139.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But Tyranitar-Mega can also 1HKO:
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 524-620 (103.9 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If it has an item that cannot be Knocked Off, and would reduce the base power if Giratina has Grisceous Orb, then even Mega Launcher seems more universally useful than Hustle.
In fact, Mega Launcher Dark Pulse on Hoopa-U can 1HKO Giratina, while boosting other moves like Aura Sphere for coverage, with No Drawbacks.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 500-590 (99.2 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 420-494 (100.9 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
For coverage:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 448-528 (110.8 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dialga: 416-490 (102.9 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ho-Oh: 420-496 (100.9 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
————
As for Magic Guard MMY, isn’t Contrary simply better? Overheat, Fleur Cannon, and Superpower after 1 turn surpass Mindblown, Light of Ruin, and High Jump Kick due to the boost. Diancie gets Head Smash which I believe is the reason it bothers with Magic Guard, since there is no Rock move that can equal it in power with another ability. As Pixelate sets can almost catch up to LO Mind Blown with V-Create, and Precipice Blades hits more Steels for Super Effective Damage than High Jump Kick (Solgaleo, Dusk-Mane, Aegislash, Metagross, etc.) except for Flash Fire Ferrothorn, Kartana and Celesteela
—————
While Pidgeot-Mega is terrible, something it can do that Arceus’s Soundproof set cannot do is take advantage of Earth Power, as its Flying Typing prevents Imposter from hurting it. This lets it hit Steel and Rock Types without worry that would resist Boomburst such as Tyranitar-Mega, and KO.
+3 252 SpA Life Orb Pidgeot-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar-Mega: 416-491 (102.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 SpA Life Orb Pidgeot-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 354-419 (97.2 - 115.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Plus, it can counter the foe’s Soundproof Arceus and threaten with Earth Power while Arceus doesn’t have an Attack to hit Pidgeot.
Plus it has 15 higher Special Attack (translates to 30 more) and 1 higher Speed so it’s attacks pack more of a punch and can outspeed Arceus. When you consider Tail Glow, the higher SpA shows much more, and Life Orb only widens the gap.
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What about partitioning old sets into an "old set" section or otherwise tagging them as "deprecated" or such? I like the idea of having an archive of the older sets, since those sets can make interesting starting points for experimenting. We already have "Viable" and "Other" sections, so there's a bit of precedent for keeping them around without cluttering the meta options.
I agree, bc we don’t want someone thinking banned stuff like Psychic Surge or PDon are viable at all because that would confuse them when they try to validate their team in PS!, but it could educate newbies on why something was banned or only viable with that perk (Deoxys-A is an example of reliance on Psychic Surge to remain viable at all). I agree it should be separate because some things are simply not viable, while others might be banned completely and therefore unusable.
——————— E4 Flint For the reasons and calculations stated above, I think Mega Launcher could be a viable set for Hoopa-Unbound for Choice Specs:
STAB Psychic, Dark, and pseudo STAB Fighting coverage are universally strong. Further, Origin Pulse handles Walls like Ho-Oh, as well as switch-ins like Diancie-Mega and is simply stronger than Photon Geyser when something resists Dark Pulse and isn’t weak to Aura Sphere (such as Xerneas, Audino-Mega, or Magearna).
Frost Breathe is an option for Zygarde-Complete, while Dragon Pulse is able to 1HKO Rayquaza-Mega while dealing more neutral coverage than Ice Beam, I.e. if they switch in Kyogre-Primal, and KOs all other Dragons besides Giratina and Zygarde-Complete. Further it hits oddities like Palkia, Reshiram, and Kyurem-B/W into KO range while Aura Sphere can only 1HKO Kyurem-W 50% of the time.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 440-518 (106.2 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Garchomp-Mega: 454-536 (108 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-White: 440-518 (96.9 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-White: 416-490 (91.6 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Palkia: 388-458 (101 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
What about partitioning old sets into an "old set" section or otherwise tagging them as "deprecated" or such? I like the idea of having an archive of the older sets, since those sets can make interesting starting points for experimenting. We already have "Viable" and "Other" sections, so there's a bit of precedent for keeping them around without cluttering the meta options.
Choice Band. Hyperspace Fury/Photon Geyser/U-turn and a filler move for the fourth slot. You can probably use Smart/Sunsteel Strike or something else. Choice Band Hustle Hyperspace Fury is extremely strong and while Photon Geyser isn't perfectly accurate, it's also very strong. U-turn can probably OHKO Imposter on the switch. Fourth move is just something to hit problematic Pokemon, usually Fairy-types.
The set is Hyperspace Fury, Sunsteel Strike, Ice Hammer, U-turn. You spam Hyperspace and the rest are coverage for stuff that don’t get 2HKOed. Band is obv the item and you run max Evs with Lonely Nature to OHKO imp on the switch with U-turn. This set actually has no switch ins with proper prediction.
The big problem with Mega Launcher is you don’t threaten out imposter, and the two big RegenVests, Pogre and Yveltal, easily switch in, and gain momentum with U-turn.
Will edit more stuff later but working with Mobile sucks
The set is Hyperspace Fury, Sunsteel Strike, Ice Hammer, U-turn. You spam Hyperspace and the rest are coverage for stuff that don’t get 2HKOed. Band is obv the item and you run max Evs with Lonely Nature to OHKO imp on the switch with U-turn. This set actually has no switch ins with proper prediction.
The big problem with Mega Launcher is you don’t threaten out imposter, and the two big RegenVests, Pogre and Yveltal, easily switch in, and gain momentum with U-turn.
Will edit more stuff later but working with Mobile sucks
But wouldn’t Imposter threaten a Speed tie or with Scarf 1HKO first with U-turn?
If you are choice locked, you have 3/4 likelihood you wont threaten Imposter on the Hustle set as it can U-Turn vs you.
Are there any Pokémon that Hustle Choice Band can 1HKO that the Mega Launcher Set cannot besides Imposter or Assault Vest? Fur Coat Pokemon that are resistant to Sunsteel can handle Hoopa-U similar to the way Mega Launcher has trouble vs RegenVest.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The Setpedia lists other Fur Coat users like Swampert-Mega and Dialga:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Swampert-Mega: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 150-177 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I think my point was just that the Mega Launcher set can cover more Steels, and still handle what Dark STAB needs to handle.
Since they could also use U-Turn vs your Hoopa, they threaten it as well.
But wouldn’t Imposter threaten a Speed tie or with Scarf 1HKO first with U-turn?
If you are choice locked, you have 3/4 likelihood you wont threaten Imposter on the Hustle set as it can U-Turn vs you.
There is something called having a mon on the field before the Imposter is. There is another thing called Imposter hard switching in on you. Which leads to this: 252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound U-turn vs. +1 252 HP / 252- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 704-832 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 174-205 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
Finally, there is a thing called having an improof and letting that take care of an Imposter that somehow got in safely (such as from a U-turn miss).
Are there any Pokémon that Hustle Choice Band can 1HKO that the Mega Launcher Set cannot besides Imposter or Assault Vest? Fur Coat Pokemon that are resistant to Sunsteel can handle Hoopa-U similar to the way Mega Launcher has trouble vs RegenVest.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The Setpedia lists other Fur Coat users like Swampert-Mega and Dialga:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Swampert-Mega: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 150-177 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lets first start off with the Mew Scale:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 942-1110 (276.2 - 325.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 788-930 (231 - 272.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now lets see prevalent mons that get OHKOed by Hustle which aren't by Mega Launcher. Apart from Imposter which we covered above.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 512-604 (112.2 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino-Mega: 384-454 (93.6 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Xerneas: 289-341 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 221-261 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 792-932 (124.5 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 294-346 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO
This list actually goes pretty long but I think you get the point. Now lets see the prevalence of RegenVest Kyogre + Yveltal vs Fur Coat Kyogre + MegaPert + Dialga.
RegenVest Kyogre: 21.13729% (usage) * 41.611% (AV) = 8.7954%
RegenVest Yveltal: 9.02052% (usage) * 21.773% (AV) = 1.9640%
Sum = 10.7594%
FC Kyogre: Oh look it isn't even in stats: Lets take the lowest stat: 21.13729% (usage) * 2.670% (Lowest ability Prankster) = 0.5644%
FC Dialga: 14.04280% (usage) * 1.841% (FC) = 0.2585%
FC Pert: Oh look it also isn't even in stats: 0.40203% (usage) * 4.007% (Lowest ability Prim Sea) = 0.0161%
Sum = 0.839%
Lets take the former and divide by the latter: 10.7594% / 0.839% = 12.824
So you are almost 13 times more likely to face against RegenVest Kyogre + Yveltal than FC trio.
In addition, RegenVest has no trouble recovering off the ~30% that you do whereas FC mons need to use a turn to do so.
Idt one uses Hoopa-U to threaten out steel types, you typically leave that for stuff like MMX and PDon and I doubt the opponent will even switch Steel types in in the first place. Hustle's coverage moves deal with all mons that it doesn't 2HKO bar Mega Gyarados which U-turn does a ton and your teammate comes in to clean that up. Mega Launcher, on the other hand, doesn't.
Can't threaten with U-turn if you are either dead or about to because you just took >50%.
Finally, if you are using Mega Launcher, why aren't you just using a different special breaker like SF MMY (better coverage, more power through wide super effective coverage, can 2HKO imp after chip, can switch moves, bluff other sets, lacks switch-ins) or Specs Ray (Much more power, coverage kills most switch-ins, bluff other sets, does a ton to imposter).
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 526-619 (154.2 - 181.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 337-398 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 394-465 (115.5 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Hustle is unique because it is one of the most powerful Physical Breakers and it lacks common switch-ins (Adapt MMX by Bro and Cress).
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Just so this post isn't an one liner, I'm going to give my thoughts on this SetPedia thing.
Personally I think the setpedia is fine (apart from some sets that should be added). Niche is fine for saying "This set is bad". The VR on the other hand, needs something. Each Rank should have a description of why the Pokemon are in that rank. Currently we are just ranking mons with respect to other mons and it gets very ambiguous as to say why Gengar is the same rank as Kyogre for example.
Add Soundproof Arceus
Add Soundproof Audino
Would slash Tinted on Bee.
Slash Mold Breaker on Band Blaze
Move Prank Cress out of niche
Add SpD Bounce Dialga
Add Specs Diancie
Remove Illusion Chomp
Slash Sap over Uturn on Prank Tina
Remove Illusion Don, slash Anchor on defensive
Add Hustle Hoopa
Slash Rain on Specs Pogre, add SF to Niche
Add Pixi Mage to Niche
Slash Prank to Smash NDM, maybe move out of niche?
Slash Adapt to Specs Ultra Necrozma
Slash PH Phero
Slash PH Fini
Add Nuzzle Taunt Xern
Add Prank Yveltal
