BH Balanced Hackmons

My questions instead will be why not banning Zacian Crowned, lol. Not because it abused GT, but because it is the only mon worth using. I mean, 6 Zacian Crowned are literally a viable tactics, and it makes the meta so flat.
I can see why GT was removed. Rip all my teams HAHAHAHA
Yeah, Intrepid Sword has MUCH more counterplay than GT.
Also, I thought that Double Iron Bash was already banned and finding it on the ladder was a bug HAHA! That also has to go, relying this much to rng is bad for any meta.
 
After messing around in BH this meta I brainstormed and tested a few sets I thought were interesting and/or anti-meta. This is my first forum post here so go easy on me lol. Of course, suggestions are appreciated.

Darmanitan-Zen @ Leppa Berry/Charcoal/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare/Lava Plume
- Substitute
- Quiver Dance
- Strength Sap

Basically hard walls both Zac and Zama, can SSap to survive a quake from Zac/Darm-ZG or to heal, stall DMax with subs+avoid Imposter (which it can stall out with the Leppa Berry if they switch in before sub is out) and can wall opposing special attackers with QD and sweep. Timid to outspeed Jolly Zac at +2. Reshiram is another pokemon I used with this set but it isnt as good of a switch in to Body Press or Fairy moves and struggles vs Eternatus, but is better against other non-dragon pokes. Chandelure is less bulky than both but has the best typing for sure. Of course the item is super up for debate as it's a bit situational but it's the only way I can run the full moveset without screwing myself by running out of PP, unless you run flamethrower instead. Once it gets going it's extremely hard to stop though, especially since the meta isn't as prepared for a special attacker like this.
EDIT: Lava Plume is what I use now. 24pp/100acc makes it super reliable, but that scald burn chance is the real deal. The power loss can be made up for slightly with Charcoal. or you can run Rocky Helmet to supplement the burns and Saps. Added all to the set options.

Also a set that I think can counter most physical attackers on paper, but probably needs some experimentation before it really does anything substantial.

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Shed Shell
Ability: Perish Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Body Press
- Strength Sap
- King's Shield

In theory, any physical attacker that can't 2HKO should die. and one that can't OHKO should still lose because sap+shield, but both Body Press Fur Coat/Prankster Zama and V Create do a number to this set. Perhaps Doublade or Pex would work better, but I chose Zama cause it has better speed for SSap. Shell to escape opposing trappers and Imposter, but again very up for debate, and not needed if you use Blade>Zama. I have yet to see discussion regarding PBody but it's an ability thats crazy enough to warrant discussion IMO. The problem is once they know the set, they will know not to use physical attacks on it, but with the centralization around physical attackers, its easier said than done and needs to always be on the opponents mind, especially with BPress allowing it to not be passive and still attack.

Finally a meme set that I didn't think would work but does? Featuring the most loved/hated doggo and is my lead most of the time

Zacian-Crowned @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Dynamic Punch
- Zap Cannon
- Court Change

Fastest mon besides Ninjask (lol) so who better than Zac to abuse paraflinch? Anything slower you just go for DPunch into Bash. Faster ones or opposing Zacs you ZCannon and Dpunch or Bash. Court change to stop opposing leads that set up hazards. Pretty straightforward but really dumb set that works extremely well when it does, but is kinda luck dependent. Still rather uncompetitive though, tbh. Lum Berry for imposter of course, in case you couldn't tell how over-prepared I am for it.
 
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So I think I found something that will change Balanced Hackmons...
Just to test if this actually worked, I genned in 3 mons: a permanent Zacian-Crowned, a permanent Darmanitan-Galar-Zen, and an Eternatus-Eternamax, and I did a local battle with my friend to test them out.
The results: not only did all of those mons show up as their normal forms, ie. regular Zacian, regular Darmanitan-Galar, and regular Eternatus in the PC where I genned them to, but they showed up like that in a local battle, which means that these forms cannot exist outside of battle. I understand Eternamax Eternatus cannot exist outside of battle period, but I didn't expect the other mons to not show up.
Do with this what you will, but if we're going to keep Balanced Hackmons to what's usable in game, we should prevent these mons from being used in Balanced Hackmons, just like Eternamax Eternatus.

From my tests, the forms are hard-coded to specific conditions. Someone in another thread was asking for a screenshot, so here's one comparing my results in PKHeX to my results in-game:

pkhex in game comparison.png

as you can see, the mons in pkhex have their busted forms (the small black circle in eternatus is eternamax btw), but in game, they appear as their regular forms. the zacian that was supposed to have pure power has intrepid sword, and the zen galar darm has gorrila tactics and keeps that in game. eternamax has pressure so no bs there.

basically i think gf put in some kind of mega hack check that instantly reverses any specific circumstance form to their original form.
sword and shield doggo still can use their busted forms, but they need to hold the sword/shield respectively, which means no band/scarf/sash/etc.

eternamax is probably specifically meant for that one battle and has no backsprite at all, so even if you could use it, the game would most definitely crash once it got sent out

also for silvally, silvally's type only changes if it has a memory and rks system, otherwise it will be pure normal, no matter what type it looks like. wishiwashi can stay in its baby form above level 20 if it doesnt have schooling, however schooled washi wont work as shown by sword doggo and a n g e r y snowman.

ill get back with some testing on morpeko and cramorant

edit: okay back with some more mons, genned in a lot this time for testing purposes
2019120114202600-B8FAEF4816CAC2B76D11869B05CA7601.jpg

no pkhex comparison cus the first image basically sums up everything
basically its confirmed, in battle forms cannot be genned in and battled with unless they meet a certain condition. i also found out that zacian and zamazenta can have whatever ability they want in game, but the item basically locks you into intrepid sword/dauntless shield which sucks if intrepid sword is getting banned cus that means sword doggo gotta go

another really interesting thing i found is that silvally actually can use different types without rks system
i had a normalize entrainment set on silvally-ghost without rks system or ghost memory and used entrainment on a wild mon to give it normalize
every move it used had no effect. so that confirms that silvally can use different types and they stay that type even without rks system/memory
someone should tag The Immortal and get that changed right away because that could be huge.

so tl;dr, no perma zacian/zamazenta crowned, need item and is forced to use intrepid sword/dauntless shield, no permanent out of battle forms like permanent megas in gens 6/7 and silvally can be any type without a memory or rks system.

just remember that all this only applies to swsh, usum oras bw all that stuff this new info does not apply to! just making sure were all on the same page okay
 
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Absolutely agree with gorilla tactics being banned; there's a fur coat user on every good team at the moment. Even despite that, physical wallbreakers are running rampant and I've been abusing them myself.
Would also agree with a double iron bash ban if we're not going to just ban zacian-crown. The flinch rate on that move is simply too good and should have been left in let's go
 
So I think I found something that will change Balanced Hackmons...
Just to test if this actually worked, I genned in 3 mons: a permanent Zacian-Crowned, a permanent Darmanitan-Galar-Zen, and an Eternatus-Eternamax, and I did a local battle with my friend to test them out.
The results: not only did all of those mons show up as their normal forms, ie. regular Zacian, regular Darmanitan-Galar, and regular Eternatus in the PC where I genned them to, but they showed up like that in a local battle, which means that these forms cannot exist outside of battle. I understand Eternamax Eternatus cannot exist outside of battle period, but I didn't expect the other mons to not show up.
Do with this what you will, but if we're going to keep Balanced Hackmons to what's usable in game, we should prevent these mons from being used in Balanced Hackmons, just like Eternamax Eternatus.
This has been confirmed and will be implemented as soon as possible.

Also, please stop using this thread for mechanics questions. Use the OM Index or the mechanics thread in Orange Islands.
 
I feel like we should talk about Dragapult, the black horse of Gen 8 Balanced Hackmons.

If you've played BH at all in the past, you'd probably know about the reign of Normalize Mega Gengar. Well, Dragapult replaces it now while boasting even more Speed, marginally more bulk, and a suitable replacement to Spooky Plate + Judgement with Ghost Memory + Multi-Attack. It's a Pokemon that every team and player has to know about or risk being completely steamrolled by due to how difficult it is to take out through normal means.

Oh yeah, speaking of which: Not only is Pursuit inaccessible in Generation 8 to more easily dispose of this set, but Foresight as well. Fun times await.



Normal Lock @ Ghost Memory
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Entrainment
- Shell Smash
- Substitute
- Multi-Attack

This set is essentially the tier's new Mega Gengar, except this time it's arguably better. The set works by passing Entrainment to the opponent with your nearly-unmatched Speed, forcing all of their attacks to fail against you. After that, you set up to gain a Speed boost so that the opponent cannot attempt to outspeed you with the likes of Scarf or x2 Speed effects while you continue the loop. Shell Smash gives the best boosts at the cost of some of your Defense and SpDef, which shouldn't matter so much if you can keep the loop going. Substitute is a perfect tool for Dragapult to use, as it blocks the opponent's attempts in trying to cheese out the set through unprepared means such as Choice Scarf or priority. The move is so valuable and good that you don't even need recovery or Leftovers to use it on the set. Multi-Attack along with Ghost Memory is most often mandatory for the set. With it, you have an offensive win condition under your belt from all of the boosting and your set is almost completely Imposter-proof. It is also required so that you can effectively hit opposing Ghost types with your Normalize ability, especially Shedinja, without being forced to switch out and ditch all of your momentum. This does, however, mean you cannot touch Normal types, but that shouldn't typically be an issue.

The EVs are pretty obvious; max out on Speed to ensure that you'll start off the Normalize lock first. 248 HP EVs is used instead of 252 EVs so that the Substitutes you make are not divisible by 4, meaning you can make 4 Substitutes per sitting instead of 3 assuming you're at full health. Ghost Memory is required to turn Multi-Attack into a STAB Ghost move even under Normalize.


Other Options

While the set is mostly set in stone, there are some alternative options for the moves listed, but are still mostly niche. Shift Gear can be used over Shell Smash as a more conservative option that doesn't lower your defenses, but at the cost of less PP and gives less power per use. Spectral Thief is also a useful tool to capitalize against opponents that think they can boost up against you and/or try to wall you out with Substitute or a Normal type. Knock Off or Fishious Rend are also options to run over Substitute for utility or immediate raw power,and also allow you to hit Normal types that want to stop your sweep. Boomburst is always a viable choice for a special attacking coverage option with the added bonus of bypassing Substitutes, but is generally unnecessary given the tools it already has. Octolock is also an interesting tech choice to gain free setup opportunities on a Normalized opponent, but it's hard to make room for.

You aren't necessarily forced to run Ghost Memory on this set. In fact, you can mix and match Memory types with Multi-Attack, such as FIghting, Water, Dark, Dragon, or more, to better suit what you're looking for; it's just mostly recommended to run Ghost Memory for its better overall effectiveness than most of the other type coverage options. You could run Leftovers and replace Multi-Attack with another offensive tool if you really want the healing for your Substitutes, but being unable to hit opposing Dragapults or Shedinja is much less acceptable than being unable to hit Normal-types.


Counters

As seemingly-impossible to overcome as this set looks on paper, it has several forms of counterplay. The set absolutely HATES Magic Bounce and Comatose more than anything. The fact that they prevent Normalize from working means they can easily attack you while you need to kill them first or boost up before doing anything significant. Entry hazards and Rocky Helmet forces damage on Dragapult even while behind its Substitute and hinders future Substitute plays, meaning you get more room to pressure it until it can't take anymore. It's possible to indirectly outstall the set with good pivoting if you built your team well enough. Special mention should go to Type: Null and Tyranitar, who wall Multi-Attack and can shrug off its coverage options, but can still be prone to Normalize.

Dragapult becomes much easier to deal with once its Substitute is down. Priority attacks, such as Extreme Speed and Fake Out from Pixilate and Glaciate users, turn Dragapult into a free kill. If Dragapult couldn't boost fast enough, Zacian or Choice Scarf users can capitalize off an open target and force a bad play. Opposing Memory holders with Multi-Attack can bypass Normalize's effects and hit Dragapult where it hurts. Prankster makes Dragapult's life miserable as it doesn't care about Dragapult's blistering Speed and can become debilitated by a random priority status move. Even with a Substitute up, they can reset if not shut off the set in one go with moves like Perish Song, Haze, or Encore. Also remember that non-attacking moves can hit you just fine, even when put under Normalize, so be sure to keep a Substitute up.

In reality, the best way to take out Dragapult is to take it by surprise and before it can get the chance to set up. Much like how difficult it is to beat with just any ordinary set, this isn't a set that you can just blindly throw out and expect to easily win most games with.
 
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Nice write up. Should mention how fur coat zamazenta out stalls this thing and soft counters it when combined with prankster haze/encore
 
Crowned form mons aren't going to be removed; they'll just have to hold their signature item similar to Groudon running Red Orb to use its primal form last gen. So that means that Zac-C will still be able to naturally outspeed Dragapult before boosting.

I do believe that Dragapult is a powerful threat this gen because of the self-improofness, and the fact that it can bluff Normalize to run other sets and moves. That means it's really easy for it to actually get a Shell Smash off. However the typing isn't nearly as good as Mega Gengar's as it has a whole bunch of weaknesses that Mega Gengar doesn't, especially to Fakespeed (both Pixilate and Refrigerate will do severe damage). I've seen a few alternative sets running around, such as Simple Smash + 3 attacks, and I'm not quite sure which one is best yet. All of them lose to Fur Coat mons, especially Spectral Thief ones. Keep an eye on Dragapult though; it does have some good potential!

On the entrainment set, I also think that Substitute is objectively a worse move to run, and that one of Fishious Rend or Close Combat are both much better. The reason is that you are walled by normal types. The summary post shrugs this off, but Unaware Normals will probably become more common, and being able to hit them hard will put a lot more pressure on them. It also means that you can beat Imposter Munchlax easily because you don't have a Substitute up, which means they will transform into Dragapult and get killed by Multi Attack. You are of course more vulnerable to things like status moves, Leech Seed, and Strength Sap this way, but those can be more easily shrugged off than a gigantic gap in your coverage which can render Dragapult virtually useless.

Here's another set I've been having great success with on the ladder. It should get even better when the mechanic changes are implemented:

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Roost
- Octolock
- Stealth Rock

This set is a great anti-bulkymon set, able to switch into most bulky mons and bounce back their status moves. It can also catch switches with Octolock, which will force the ones without pivot moves to eat progressively stronger scalds that will run them out of recover PP. By revealing that it has Stealth Rock, Toxapex can lure in Magic Bounce mons so that they can be worn down by Octolock + Scald and burns. Octolock also means that Toxapex is mostly self-improof, though it of course would rather not be burnt and will have to use 4 or 5 recover PP healing itself up. After bouncers are dealt with, Toxapex can reliably get Stealth Rock up over and over.

Toxapex can work as an Improof to something like Zamazenta-C, walling Fire and Fighting types it doesn't want to take on while it dissuades hazards that Zam-C wouldn't want to deal with. It can also improof offensive Darm-GZ sets that forgo Ground coverage, and use Fighting coverage to hit Steel-types instead. Knock Off support can help Toxapex wear down enemies faster with burn damage.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
I am 100% that set!

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Soak
- Pain Split
- Octolock

Imposterproof, traps other Ghosts after Soak, removes foe's STAB, and lets you multi-task as you trap, heal while dealing damage with Pain Split, and Body Press after those 2 turns when they are at -2 Defense.

If Imposter uses Soak, you can Pain Split, and then switch to an Improof (like mine is Darm-Z with Blue Flare). Pain Split works even better against Dynamax. Also functions as way around Entrainment Dragapult. You Soak as they Entrain. Suddenly Body Press gets 20% more power, which helps compensate for losing Fur Coat. They lose STAB on Multi-Attack, so that helps, and you still have Eviolite for Body Press' damage, and removes the ability for it to switch out of its own Jaw Lock. Obstolock the 2nd turn in for trapping, and suddenly you can check your "counters".
 
also the most common dragapults dont run sub. they run fishous rend or bolt beak so when they get magic bounced they dont get walled by something like ttar.
Fishious Rend/Bolt Beak doesn't help with either of these. TTar couldn't care less about them because of Normalize, and unless you happen to be up against a Normal type (which you aren't doing much damage to either way), you might as well either boost under a Sub, try for Multi-Attack, or just switch out against Magic Bounce.

As for the Normal types in general, I can only think of two or three Normal types you would probably see in BH as opposed to several numerous sets designed to beat Dragapult that you would absolutely see. Besides, you're unlikely to beat most Normal types 1v1 anyway as they're designed to pose problems for Dragapult; you might as well either stall them out or keep yourself safe from surprise attacks that every team will run just to take you down.

I did mention this in the Other Options portion, but I didn't slash it in because it doesn't solve any notable problems. You COULD run Fishious Rend or the like to cover Normal types instead of Substitute, but you'll rarely beat down Normal types (mainly Type: Null) 1v1 with it anyway without a substantial amount of boosting, would rather force a stalemate with Normalize, or just switch out and try again later if neither of those are applicable. At that point, why stay in?

It's worth using Substitute over coverage because Normal types are surprisingly rare in Gen 8 BH, and sets that can circumvent the set without Substitute are much more common and should be considered more than the latter.

Speaking of which:

I am 100% that set!

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Soak
- Pain Split
- Octolock

Imposterproof, traps other Ghosts after Soak, removes foe's STAB, and lets you multi-task as you trap, heal while dealing damage with Pain Split, and Body Press after those 2 turns when they are at -2 Defense.

If Imposter uses Soak, you can Pain Split, and then switch to an Improof (like mine is Darm-Z with Blue Flare). Pain Split works even better against Dynamax. Also functions as way around Entrainment Dragapult. You Soak as they Entrain. Suddenly Body Press gets 20% more power, which helps compensate for losing Fur Coat. They lose STAB on Multi-Attack, so that helps, and you still have Eviolite for Body Press' damage, and removes the ability for it to switch out of its own Jaw Lock. Obstolock the 2nd turn in for trapping, and suddenly you can check your "counters".
See this? Sets like this is why you run Substitute on Dragapult. Otherwise effective out-of-nowhere sets like this flip the entire strategy over its head and you lose your Dragapult because you didn't prepare for it. Losing a portion of your health is a fair cost to being immune to numerous surprise cheese strategies that would make the set useless otherwise and come up more often than Normal type treats.
 
I've been having some success with an alternative dragapult set:

Ability: Tough Claws
- Shell Smash
- Multi Attack
- Close Combat
- Recover / Blue Flare


Bluff Normalize to get a switch, set up and start clicking. CC catches Mega Tar for an easy kill as well as stuff like Zam-C (Non-FC or Unaware takes about 80), Zac-C dies to 2+2 Multiattack, and you can run Recover to keep your health up. Blue Flare lets you smack prankster Steels and physical walls really hard, 2hkoing Melmetal. Of course, this is mostly a lure for anti-normalize answers rn. Try it out though, the power boost is definitely nice!
 
Can you all stop posting and suggesting terrible sets? Most of these look like sets people from ladder hell use and I don't know why people are still mentioning Darm-Z like its relevant when its leaving soon and wasn't very good in the first place.
Normal Lock @ Ghost Memory
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Entrainment
- Shell Smash
- Substitute
- Multi-Attack
Yeah mono-attack is just not good. Substitute is completely outclassed by Fishous Rend which actually gives you coverage against resists and immunities because guess what you don't have 170 offenses like MGar so stuff like prank darks just outstall you even if they can't touch you.
Fishious Rend/Bolt Beak doesn't help with either of these. TTar couldn't care less about them because of Normalize, and unless you happen to be up against a Normal type (which you aren't doing much damage to either way), you might as well either boost under a Sub, try for Multi-Attack, or just switch out against Magic Bounce.
They can't touch you unless they have Magic Bounce where you hit them with SE Fishous or Comatose which is an unset.
Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Soak
- Pain Split
- Octolock
What the heck is this. A wall without reliable recovery. A mon with mono-attack non-STAB non-utility. A mon that offers hardly any utility since no hazards no defog doesn't check anything relevant. A mon that is easily taken advantage of by any pivot mon. Congrats. This set is so bad.

Regarding the QBs would look forward to ISword, DIB, and maybe shed getting qbed, the 170 BP moves and shed could use a suspect.
:sm/shedinja:
Shedinja @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Teleport
- Pain Split
- Stealth Rock
- Spirit Shackle / Baneful Bunker

The best Shed set in the meta IMO. Immunity to hazards lets you play much more aggressively. Spirit Shackle is useful for chipping ghosts and finishing off mons after a couple rounds of pain split. Main problem are the rock and ice dynamax moves but you can cover that with a Prim Sea mon and stall out dynamax using your own Max Guard. This mon is actually broken and really difficult to account for unless you run SunGeist Geyser or Knock Off/Trick on every offensive mon.
Actually Pain Split is incredibly bugged rn so run something else on it for now.

:sm/kyurem-white::sm/mewtwo::sm/eternatus:
Kyurem-White @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- Earth Power
- Volt Switch

Mewtwo / Eternatus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty / Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Psychic / Sludge Wave
- Bolt Strike / Filler (Blue Flare, Focus Blast, Seed Flare, Shadow Ball, Moonblast, Sludge Wave, Bug Buzz, Spikes, Agility?)

These two are really solid offensive mons for Shed teams as special isn't super accounted for in the meta rn. Kyu-W needs Naive to outrun base 90s and ESpeed helps against Dragapult and weakened Zacian-C until that leaves the meta. I haven't tried Mewtwo yet but it looks like its a really solid offensive threat too. Of course if your opponent has an Ice Scales mon then most of the time these mons don't do anything so...
 
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a loser

I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I thought it had been discussed on here already but I guess not. Imposter is still relevant in this meta. Imposter will be seen in any meta where it can have more than base 48 HP. Scarf Imposter is still handy for taking on offense.

:wobbuffet:Wobbuffet has by far the highest base HP available so it is ideal for Scarf Imposter or even niche items like Shed Shell, Leftovers, or a memory for Multi-Attack.

:munchlax:Munchlax has the highest available base HP that can hold Eviolite, but it doesn't really compare to Chansey's utility from last generation.

:pikachu:Light Ball Pikachu imposter is a solid improof breaker still and can be threatening with paralysis support.

:wailord::snorlax::drifblim:Other imposter options include Wailord, Snorlax, and Drifblim. These are mainly for flavor, since Wobbuffet is ugly. But Snorlax could actually have some use if it doesn't transform and can phase out Substitute Dragapult. Drifblim is immune to spikes, if you're into that, but being weak to rocks is lame.
 
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Yeah mono-attack is just not good. Substitute is completely outclassed by Fishous Rend which actually gives you coverage against resists and immunities because guess what you don't have 170 offenses like MGar so stuff like prank darks just outstall you even if they can't touch you.
...you mean the whopping TWO viable Dark-type Prankster abusers in BH being Tyranitar and Umbreon? (Yeah others can run it but they're mostly unsets) The only one of those you're hitting for relevant damage with that is Umbreon, and you can't even 2HKO it without a boost and/or Stealth Rock. Outside of that, only Type: Null is the primary Normal type target to use Fishious Rend against, and good luck killing that with anything less than a +4 boost under your belt.

At that point, if that's all you're realistically hitting with Fishious Rend, you might as well be safer against a wider margin of counterplay with Substitute.


**EDIT** Whoops forgot that Entrainment --> Magic Bounce turns Normalize into Magic Bounce.


I've been having some success with an alternative dragapult set:

Ability: Tough Claws
- Shell Smash
- Multi Attack
- Close Combat
- Recover / Blue Flare


Bluff Normalize to get a switch, set up and start clicking. CC catches Mega Tar for an easy kill as well as stuff like Zam-C (Non-FC or Unaware takes about 80), Zac-C dies to 2+2 Multiattack, and you can run Recover to keep your health up. Blue Flare lets you smack prankster Steels and physical walls really hard, 2hkoing Melmetal. Of course, this is mostly a lure for anti-normalize answers rn. Try it out though, the power boost is definitely nice!
Well yeah, it's not like the set I gave was all Dragapult could do. It can set up hazards effectively, try to be a sweeper, stallbreak, spread status... it's got other uses aside from the one I gave, so go nuts.
 
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I am 100% that set!

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Soak
- Pain Split
- Octolock

Imposterproof, traps other Ghosts after Soak, removes foe's STAB, and lets you multi-task as you trap, heal while dealing damage with Pain Split, and Body Press after those 2 turns when they are at -2 Defense.

If Imposter uses Soak, you can Pain Split, and then switch to an Improof (like mine is Darm-Z with Blue Flare). Pain Split works even better against Dynamax. Also functions as way around Entrainment Dragapult. You Soak as they Entrain. Suddenly Body Press gets 20% more power, which helps compensate for losing Fur Coat. They lose STAB on Multi-Attack, so that helps, and you still have Eviolite for Body Press' damage, and removes the ability for it to switch out of its own Jaw Lock. Obstolock the 2nd turn in for trapping, and suddenly you can check your "counters".
Fur Coat and Eviolite do not boost Body Press. It's the same way as when you're using Foul Play, the opponent having Huge Power (which ostensibly raises their attack stat even higher) doesn't result in extra damage, but if you have that ability, it does. Stat stages are still drawn from defense, but if you want to get a boost from the ability or item slots, they need to boost attack even when the move you're using is Body Press.
 

a loser

I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Fur Coat and Eviolite do not boost Body Press. It's the same way as when you're using Foul Play, the opponent having Huge Power (which ostensibly raises their attack stat even higher) doesn't result in extra damage, but if you have that ability, it does. Stat stages are still drawn from defense, but if you want to get a boost from the ability or item slots, they need to boost attack even when the move you're using is Body Press.
Is the sim running based on this information? Because at the moment, it really seems like Body Press is being boosted by Fur Coat. Its definitely boosted by defensive boosts, but that makes more sense.

I just ran some quick tests on PS and it looks like Fur Coat is boosting Body Press. Check out the replay below. All Ferrothorns are 252 HP / 252+ Def with Flash Fire.
  • The first Zama I send out is 252+ Def with Fur Coat and 0 Atk EVs.
  • The second Zama is 252+ Def with Fluffy and 0 Atk EVs and it only does 49% (while the damage calc is showing 44.3% as the max roll for this because it doesn't consider the +Def nature).
  • The third Zama is +Def with Fur Coat and 252 Atk EVs. This damage looks to fall into the 88.6 - 104.5% range, same as the first Zama without Atk EVs.
  • The fourth Zama is 252+ Def with Comatose and 252 Atk EVs. This Zama appears to have the same damage as the Fluffy one without Atk EVs.
  • Lastly, I have Hakamo-o with 252+ Def with Fur Coat, Eviolite, and 252 Atk EVs. Hakamo-o cleanly OKHOs the first Ferrothorn it sees, but after its Eviolite is knocked off, he only does 83% damage (which isn't a possible roll if Eviolite didn't matter since the first attack was a OHKO).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1024482911
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Fur Coat and Eviolite do not boost Body Press. It's the same way as when you're using Foul Play, the opponent having Huge Power (which ostensibly raises their attack stat even higher) doesn't result in extra damage, but if you have that ability, it does. Stat stages are still drawn from defense, but if you want to get a boost from the ability or item slots, they need to boost attack even when the move you're using is Body Press.
I based it off experience, not theorymonning. I don’t think I would have used the set if it didn’t work, and I literally discussed it earlier.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your post, if they decide to change it based on if a mechanic is meant to be the way you describe then it makes sense.

Still, I think your argument doesn’t make sense, in both cases the user has to have the ability for it to work, so using Fur Coat matters on the user of it.
Can you all stop posting and suggesting terrible sets? Most of these look like sets people from ladder hell use and I don't know why people are still mentioning Darm-Z like its relevant when its leaving soon and wasn't very good in the first place.

Yeah mono-attack is just not good. Substitute is completely outclassed by Fishous Rend which actually gives you coverage against resists and immunities because guess what you don't have 170 offenses like MGar so stuff like prank darks just outstall you even if they can't touch you.

They can't touch you unless they have Magic Bounce where you hit them with SE Fishous or Comatose which is an unset.

What the heck is this. A wall without reliable recovery. A mon with mono-attack non-STAB non-utility. A mon that offers hardly any utility since no hazards no defog doesn't check anything relevant. A mon that is easily taken advantage of by any pivot mon. Congrats. This set is so bad.

Regarding the QBs would look forward to ISword, DIB, and maybe shed getting qbed, the 170 BP moves and shed could use a suspect.
:sm/shedinja:
Shedinja @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Teleport
- Pain Split
- Stealth Rock
- Spirit Shackle / Baneful Bunker

The best Shed set in the meta IMO. Immunity to hazards lets you play much more aggressively. Spirit Shackle is useful for chipping ghosts and finishing off mons after a couple rounds of pain split. Main problem are the rock and ice dynamax moves but you can cover that with a Prim Sea mon and stall out dynamax using your own Max Guard. This mon is actually broken and really difficult to account for unless you run SunGeist Geyser or Knock Off/Trick on every offensive mon.
Actually Pain Split is incredibly bugged rn so run something else on it for now.

:sm/kyurem-white::sm/mewtwo::sm/eternatus:
Kyurem-White @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- Earth Power
- Volt Switch

Mewtwo / Eternatus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty / Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Psychic / Sludge Wave
- Bolt Strike / Filler (Blue Flare, Focus Blast, Seed Flare, Shadow Ball, Moonblast, Sludge Wave, Bug Buzz, Spikes, Agility?)

These two are really solid offensive mons for Shed teams as special isn't super accounted for in the meta rn. Kyu-W needs Naive to outrun base 90s and ESpeed helps against Dragapult and weakened Zacian-C until that leaves the meta. I haven't tried Mewtwo yet but it looks like its a really solid offensive threat too. Of course if your opponent has an Ice Scales mon then most of the time these mons don't do anything so...
The Twins:
Darm-Z was an ideal wall for the Crowned Dogs because it didn’t worry about SunSteel Strike, while it could handle Bolt Beak - unlike Toxapex, and threatened with Blue Flare. Heavy Duty Boots removed its hazard weakness, negating its SR issues and lack of Toxic Spikes immunity that gave Toxapex a niche over it.
Darm-Z-Galar was the Ice type that didn’t rely on priority, and had good dual STAB with Fire coverage for Steels, while Ice covered Dragon resists.
Both had a place in the meta due to their unique typing and well distributed stats. No one can deny that.

I recently discovered they are limited due to the way Zen Mode and other transformation abilities are impacted by Gen 8 mechanics, but before that implementation - I wouldn’t say they weren’t good. Fan of them or not, they were good at their job.

Doublade -

Pain Split, I find, with something as high Def but low HP bulk as Doublade, actually heals more than Recover due to the Max EVs nature of BH where people can max HP and Defenses, and oftentimes it can stay in longer. Many people use Strength Sap, which is also considered less reliable than Recover, bc it can force switches, similar to Pain Split. Pain Split keeps your foe on a timer if they lack Recovery, and grants you free turns and extra healing when they pack Recovery. Pain Split works on this set in my practice.

Having over 1300 Defense, without set-up, on Turn 1 more than makes up for a lack of STAB. I view Eviolite as giving it the 50% boost equivalent of STAB, and Fur Coat giving it the 100% boost of a Super Effective move. Partner that with base 150 Def, and that deals a lot of damage. AKA, with Eviolite factored in to make up for lack of STAB, it does more than Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned as it has 150 base Defense while Zamazenta-Crowned only has 145, as Zamazenta can’t use a +Def item. Plus Zamazenta likes +Spe nature’s for breaking Speed ties and new Speed tiers, while Doublade can afford to go +Def, widening the gap even more...

Further, it perfectly handles Imposter, while Zamazenta-Crowned fears STAB super effective Body Press.

So... literally, you think the strongest viable Body Press user in the game is not strong? That’s not logical. That’s just sad.

It even surpasses Imposter Pikachu since Pikachu doesn’t pack Eviolite and thus doesn’t get any boosts. Even if you face Eviolite Imposter, you can Pain Split them as they use Soak, and have effectively prevented them from healing much back all at once.
Also: Since crowned forms require the hold item now, so can’t even hold Black Belt to catch up...

Taken advantage of by pivot mons? I think the low Speed allows it to underspeed many pivot mons to trap the incoming Pokemon the pivot tries to switch into.

I see how it doesn’t seem appealing on paper, in practice it does quite well. Yes, Substitute and Magic Bounce block Soak, but that can be said for some utility moves like W-o-w or even Strength Sap, that you see on a regular wall set. You don’t want to drain your HP due to Magic Bounced burns, or heal your foe due to Strength Sap bounces.

The set is more like an offensive physical wall - it takes hits, dishes them out, and traps them to weaken foes by stats, and HP with Pain Split.

If you try it out, you will get a better sense of how it can be surprisingly more effective than it looks on the surface.

Shoutout to a loser for actually testing the mechanics before forming an opinion on my, or any future Fur Coat sets. :blobthumbsup:
 
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Fur Coat and Eviolite do not boost Body Press. It's the same way as when you're using Foul Play, the opponent having Huge Power (which ostensibly raises their attack stat even higher) doesn't result in extra damage, but if you have that ability, it does. Stat stages are still drawn from defense, but if you want to get a boost from the ability or item slots, they need to boost attack even when the move you're using is Body Press.
I may as well emphasize this post again--we have posts in the Research thread indicating that Choice Band and Hustle boost Body Press while Eviolite doesn't in the games:
I don't have time for a better empirical test, but it seems Eviolite does NOT boost Body Press's damage.

I caught an Onix and taught it Body Press. Then I had it use Body Press on two different wild Noctowl.

Both with Eviolite and without it, it did around 50% damage.
はじめまして!
ボディプレスの調査をしました。

Nice to meet you!
I researched Body Press.

■ Choice Band was working.
【Def】114 Duraludon Lv.50 Choice Band
【Pow】80 Body Press
【Def】78 Gastrodon
【Damage】67,68,69,71,74,75,76,79

■ Hustle was working.
【Def】114 Duraludon Lv.50 Hustle (Entrainment)
【Pow】80 Body Press
【Def】78 Gastrodon
【Damage】67,69,70,71,74,75,76,77,79

 
Can we just take a moment to talk about the fact that unreleased Pokémon are still labeled as banned and are thus unsearchable by pre-existing stats and such? I didn't even know Zekrom was a part of BH until it popped up on the ladder and started wreaking havoc on my team! I could've used the ol' reliable tanky black dragon if only it appeared near the very top when I sorted all the available mons by ATK in descending order.

Even with the Dexit in effect, it's still crowded. I hope that Smogon will update the search lists somehow, even if the stats and abilities need to be updated upon the official releases.
 
Simple ability should be banned due to no retreat and clangorous soul. Just think about a zamazenta with these 2 moves, simple ability, baton pass and some heal.
How much does Simple really buff No Retreat, though? Even on low ladder, I've seen No Retreat get Spectral Thiefed all the time, and I believe I've seen it get Topsy-Turvyed once.
 

a loser

I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
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Zacian-Crowned (F) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Baneful Bunker
- Recover
- Toxic

Zamazenta-Crowned (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Body Press
- Sunsteel Strike
- Roost

Zamazenta (F) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Low Kick
- Will-O-Wisp
- Spectral Thief
- Spiky Shield

Zacian-Crowned (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Substitute
- Copycat
- Destiny Bond

Zamazenta-Crowned (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Will-O-Wisp
- Spectral Thief
- Soft-Boiled

Zacian-Crowned (F) @ Steel Memory
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Rapid Spin
- Extreme Speed
- Toxic
With all the recent changes to this meta this team is no longer functional, but I wanted to share it here anyway because it was a lot of fun to use. I typically don't use species spam as a strategy but it was almost too good not to use at the beginning of this meta since Zacian and Zamazenta were just that good. This team isn't quite what you'd expect from team preview, but it was very effective on the ladder, helping me get two alts into the top 10 without much trouble. It took a slight anti-meta approach with some different sets like Corrosion and Prankster Copycat Zacian-Crowned.

Basically I would lead with Corrosion Zacian and try to poison their lead either with Baneful Bunker or Toxic. Lum Berry helped me to stay in on an imposing Imposter lead or leads like Nuzzle Aegislash and poison them. Otherwise, I would lead with Poison Heal Zama to make sure my orb was activated. After this, it was basically dancing around any opposing threats with the combination of Flash Fire and Levitate Zamazenta and the surprising bulk and longevity of PH Zama. With multiple Will-o-Wisp setters and two Toxic users, I could pretty much status whoever came my way to rack up useful chip damage. I added extra chip with Rocky Helmet and Spiky Shield. I did run into a lot of teams with Aromatherapy, but these could still be stalled out of PP or I could just take out the healer.

Two of my favorite sets were the Corrosion and Prankster Zacians. I already discussed Corrosion, but Substitute and Prankster combined with Double Iron Bash and Copycat led to some fun sequences (for me, but not the opponent). Copycat made up for Double Iron Bash's limited PP and also gave me a +1 priority move with a 49% to flinch the opponent. This helped me outpace and hax-to-death opposing Prankster walls trying to heal on me. This mon had a lot of role compression, helping me beat Dragapult with Substitute, flinch hax, steal recovery moves or hazards from opponents, and take out threats with Destiny Bond in a pinch.

I didn't have many replays with this team, but there are a few here that showcase some of what the team could do.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1016779168
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1017441622
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1014704470

I already miss the meta that allowed the dogs to be completely free, but I also know that its better that they are back, if you will, on their chain. Zacian still seems to be a prominent threat with its high speed and constant Attack boost but it is certainly less of a pain to deal with. One postive from this now outdated team is you can still (and should) use PH Zamazenta. It is really good and has nice bulk and utility. You could probably swap some of the moves out for things like Body Press or Knock Off, depending on what your team needs.

I'm looking forward to seeing what other mons come into the picture now that the dust is settling on the recent changes. Things like Reshiram, Kyurem, and Zekrom are already enjoying the meta even more. Now if we can just iron out some of the last wrinkles in this new meta, like Body Press seeming to be bugged, BH will have a chance to balance itself and be more fun.
 

lepton

im fragile, but not that fragile
is a Tiering Contributor
some of my favorite defensive sets:


Snorlax @ Safety Goggles/shed shell
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Haze
- Metal Burst
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy/U-turn/whatever

The prankster mon I’ve been using. Walls like every special attacker in the tier and some of the physical ones. Metal burst with high HP kills things.


Mandibuzz (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Nuzzle
- Slack Off

Switches in on dragapult and uses free turn to use powerful support moves. bouncing is really good and this is a solid option


Seismitoad @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Defog/whatever
- Spectral Thief
- U-turn
- Roost

walls like every Common physical attacker in the tier. Water ground is an amazing typing for the meta because no one is running grass moves, steel attackers are everywhere sois zekrom, which this shuts down. Use on balance to check things and pivot into breakers.
 

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