Pokémon Kangaskhan

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This Pokemon is the living worst.

I haven't played in like a week, but I got curious a while ago bread a Khan. I trashed through so many teams while riding this guy's coattails. So much less thinking was needed, and his options are fantastic. Stopped using this broken poke A$VP. He can be countered, but by very few things, and most of the serious counters require builds that, in my opinion, lessen the overall effectiveness of a team as a whole. Since his fame has increased, players in Wifi almost always have something bulky with rocky helmet just for the sole purpose of taking out Khan users. That, to me, is hilarious. Wasting a single slot of potential just to stop 1 threat, when there are hundreds out there.

He made me feel like a cheap dbag when using him, so that's the end of that. On to the next mon.
 
Mega-Kangaskhan, in my opinion, is the scariest mega in the game at this point in time. I have seen him completely wreck entire teams by its lonesome self who was sent out on the first switch, and if any team wants to stand a chance against it it is really going to need to be able to have a good counter with a move which will greatly cripple Kanga after taking a shot, or a couple of Pokemon who with good prediction can resist but probably better to be immune to the predicted move that Kanga will use, and I have been able to counter it relatively well. But in the end I find it almost as threatening as Blaziken (not quite, but not much in it).

She really is BS, but I do find that Sableye is probably the best counter out there for it, although not popular (but still, Go Sableye!). Ferrothorn works as a mediocre counter, dealing a lot of damage back with Iron Barbs and even more with a Rugged Helmet, Twave can then cripple it and same with Leech Seed (as long as you can stay alive). But he can also be used some what as setup fodder for PuP surprisingly.

But in the end, on any PuP build you are going to have to be able to stop it from getting to plus 2 or it will wreck miserably, and I think that is key to versing a Mega-Kang with that set. But it's much easier said than done unfortunately, and its bulk saves it from a lot of OHKOs.

I would expect it to be the first Mega-stone to be banned if any are to get banned, but still a top tier Poke you got there. Be afraid, be very afraid.
 
Some comments here are flat-out absurd, people are completely underestimating Parental Bond. It turns Return's base power into effectively 229 without boosts AND it renders Focus Sash, Sturdy and Substitute useless. PuP is also effectively turned into a combination of Swords Dance + Brick Break (it has 70 Base Power), and there are NO physical walls that take less than 75% from a +2 Mega Kangaskhan, not even in the Uber metagame! (actually, Quagsire takes aproximately 60%, but it can only try to Scald Burn it in return).

Now, looking at offensive teams, you should remember that Kangaskhan's bulk is similar to that of DEOXYS-D and higher than that of Jirachi. That means even the strongest priority moves (Azumarill's Aqua Jet, Scizor's Bullet Punch, CBNite's Extremespeed, Conkeldurr's Mach Punch, Talonflame's Brave Bird) will fail to do over 65% damage to it. The only stuff that are viable and that you can do in order to avoid being instantly solo'd by a Mega Khan is:
-Having an already Mega Evolved Lucario at 60% health to revenge kill it
-Using Keldeo or Terrakion to revenge kill it
-Using LO Technician Mach Punch Breloom to finish off it assuming it has 80% HP remaining (not to mention +2 Sucker Punch from Khan will outspeed and do up to 75%).

alexwolf EDIT: Removed the part where you talk about its banning
 
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Some comments here are flat-out absurd, people are completely underestimating Parental Bond. It turns Return's base power into effectively 229 without boosts AND it renders Focus Sash, Sturdy and Substitute useless. PuP is also effectively turned into a combination of Swords Dance + Brick Break (it has 70 Base Power), and there are NO physical walls that take less than 75% from a +2 Mega Kangaskhan, not even in the Uber metagame! (actually, Quagsire takes aproximately 60%, but it can only try to Scald Burn it in return).

Now, looking at offensive teams, you should remember that Kangaskhan's bulk is similar to that of DEOXYS-D and higher than that of Jirachi. That means even the strongest priority moves (Azumarill's Aqua Jet, Scizor's Bullet Punch, CBNite's Extremespeed, Conkeldurr's Mach Punch, Talonflame's Brave Bird) will fail to do over 65% damage to it. The only stuff that are viable and that you can do in order to avoid being instantly solo'd by a Mega Khan is:
-Having an already Mega Evolved Lucario at 60% health to revenge kill it
-Using Keldeo or Terrakion to revenge kill it
-Using LO Technician Mach Punch Breloom to finish off it assuming it has 80% HP remaining (not to mention +2 Sucker Punch from Khan will outspeed and do up to 75%).

IMO Mega Kangaskhan is A LOT more broken than Blaziken (easy to wall in this gen, and susceptible to priority moves) in terms of sweeping power, I don't see why it still hasn't been quickbanned.
Who underestimated Parental Bond? I haven't heard anyone say that. Everyone agrees it is a really strong option, but I think lack of speed is what keeps it from being broken. Even if it gets an attack boost you can still use pokes with rocky helmet+barbs to take it out, burn it, hit it with boosted fighting type moves or STAB fighting types. The main thing is, don't let it set up or always keep your counter in the back waiting to take it out. Most Mega Kangs don't have recovery moves so that means you need to plan ahead. Toxic Spikes, Burn, use a faster poke to get at least one hit off then bring in your kang after to finish it with Fake Out and or Sucker Punch. Sometimes you do have to sacrifice a poke in order to take out, but it's better than getting swept by a Speed boosted blaziken and not being able to do anything about it.
 
"Who underestimated Parental Bond"? I've seen a guy saying Groudon outpowers Kangaskhan, someone stated Gliscor as a check for it, etc, etc. And Blaziken is much easier to handle in this generation; there are the fairies, HJK is dangerous with the massive amount of Ghosts, Dragons are still there, Priority from the likes of Azumarill / Greninja / Talonflame wreck it, while Kangaskhan can only be held by Sableye
 
I want to echo Aldaron's post, because right now it looks like Support Kangaskhan is her most dangerous set. PuP makes her one of the best sweepers in the metagame if not the best, but like all popular sweepers her efficiency is mitigated by the fact everyone prepares against her. However, when you combine her fantastic 105/100/100 defenses with Wish, Knock Off and a ridiculously powerful Seisnic Toss, she supports the team like no other and there isn't much your opponent can do against it.

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 36 SDef / 252 HP / 220 Def or 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Impish/Careful Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off/Crunch

The EV spread can be tweaked depending on your team, and the first one gives her optimal physical bulk while letting her survive Mega Gengar's Focus Blast after Rocks to OHKO with Crunch. Going mixed is viable as well, but I didn't find speed investment to be as helpful as bulk. If Gengarite is banned, I don't see much reason to run Crunch at all.

To give you an idea of how bulky she is, using the physical spread:

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 222+ Def Mega Kangaskhan: 120-142 (28.9 - 34.2%)
252 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 150-177 (36.2 - 42.7%)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 222+ Def Mega Kangaskhan: 200-238 (48.3 - 57.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 222+ Def Mega Kangaskhan: 240-284 (57.9 - 68.5%)
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 222+ Def Mega Kangaskhan: 265-315 (64 - 76%)


She has plenty of opportunities to come in, and every time that happens she will achieve something significant. 90% of the metagame is 2HKOed by Seismic Toss, 252/252 Bold Jellicent is 2HKOed by Knock Off and even if you mispredict, nothing enjoys losing its item. That kind of pressure makes Wish-passing a breeze, and with Protect to heal herself Kangaskhan can outright beat most Pokémon she hits on the switch and she outright wins one-on-one against a significant amount of Pokémon. This set sure isn't sweeping left and right, but it supports a team like no other.
 
I'll admit that I only considered MKanga as a bulky attacker. Not Seismic toss though, because I assumed it wasn't confirmed. Now that it is though... I'm having second thoughts.

I won't doomsay, though. Not without giving some time for people to think about counters.
There isn't much differences with counters between Bulky S Toss and PuP sweeper. Ghost types can still switch in and annoy her. Rocky helmet users like ferrothorn and Garchomp are still walling it, although Seismic Toss / Wish / Protect really negates a bit of their usefulness.
 
There isn't much differences with counters between Bulky S Toss and PuP sweeper. Ghost types can still switch in and annoy her. Rocky helmet users like ferrothorn and Garchomp are still walling it, although Seismic Toss / Wish / Protect really negates a bit of their usefulness.
The big one is it doesn't need to burn a turn using PuP to pump it's damage. It goes straight to chucking opponents around, and doesn't care if they resist- only if they're immune, and then you're Crunching them instead for hideous damage. And barring immune-to-Seismic, it doesn't care much about being burnt either.
 
Ghosts actually aren't much of a problem since they get destroyed by Knock Off on the switch, and you can just throw those around since nothing likes losing its item. It may not be as debilitating as for her sweeping set, but even Support Kang still dislikes getting burned because burn damage combined the lack of Leftovers recover and having to rely on two turn recovery destroys her durability. Packing a cleric is a good idea, as it turns her into a fantastic wallbreaker and Heal Bell support synergizes excellently with her Wishes.
 
Ghosts actually aren't much of a problem since they get destroyed by Knock Off on the switch, and you can just throw those around since nothing likes losing its item. It may not be as debilitating as for her sweeping set, but even Support Kang still dislikes getting burned because burn damage combined the lack of Leftovers recover and having to rely on two turn recovery destroys her durability. Packing a cleric is a good idea, as it turns her into a fantastic wallbreaker and Heal Bell support synergizes excellently with her Wishes.
I never considered Knock Off for Kangaskhan before. This can be quite annoying for rocky helmet users and ghost with leftovers that would normally switch in on her like gourgeist and it packs quite a punch as well. However, you lose the damage boost after the first hit so it might not be that useful compared to sucker punch.
 
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I never considered Knock Off for Kangaskhan before. This can be quite annoying for rocky helmet users and ghost with leftovers that would normally switch in on her like gourgeist and it packs quite a punch as well. However, you lose the damage boost after the first hit so it might not be that useful compared to sucker punch.
I mean the choice in moves there just depends on what you want it to do. Knock off would be more of a support set move, where sucker punch would be the one you want on the bulky attacker. Now that people are starting to diversify kangaskhan's movepools beyond the standard PuP set, we're really beginning to get an idea of all the crazy things that it can do. I'm sure as we go on people will figure out even better uses for things like bulldoze, circle throw, and some of the other moves it gets too.
 

toshimelonhead

Honey Badger don't care.
is a Tiering Contributor
I would say >50% of my losses have come from MegaKanga sweeping my team.

Rocky Helmet Garchomp is an OK check, but even then people can play around that with Earthquake or Knock Off. Haven't tried Sableye but that seems like a check to me. WoW is not a guarantee even at 85%.

Has anyone tried throwing Rocky Helmet on random Regenerator walls just to bait Kanga? Something like Slowbro or Alomomola could at least provide some defense for when Kanga gets to +2. Even Deo-D might be an OK idea.
 
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%)

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 445-523 (83.3 - 97.9%)

So probably not, and definitely not if rocks are on the field or if they've taken any prior damage.
 
Body Slam's 50% chance to paralyze is the only one I could see having some use, maybe on some kind of non-boosting bulky offensive set I guess? 252HP/252Atk, Fake Out/Body Slam/Knock Off/Earthquake? Might be worth a try, but Fake Out isn't that good and I can't really see a good reason to run this over Support Khan or a sweeping set. At this point I'm wondering if "Support" is an appropriate name, because this thing often ends up dealing the most damage over the course of a game, it's ridiculous.

I never considered Knock Off for Kangaskhan before. This can be quite annoying for rocky helmet users and ghost with leftovers that would normally switch in on her like gourgeist and it packs quite a punch as well. However, you lose the damage boost after the first hit so it might not be that useful compared to sucker punch.
Do note that even though the second hit of Knock Off doesn't get boosted, it's still slightly stronger than Crunch when knocking an item away, roughly equivalent to 86BP. Crunch has the distinct advantage of beating Mega Gengar without Atk investment, and Knock Off is the superior option in every other situation. On Support Khan, Sucker Punch just scratches a Subbing Gengar, gets you Will-o-Wisped by Ghosts, and isn't nearly strong enough to be used against anything else.

toshimelonhead: Sableye, full stop.
 
I would say >50% of my losses have come from MegaKanga sweeping my team.

Rocky Helmet Garchomp is an OK check, but even then people can play around that with Earthquake or Knock Off. Haven't tried Sableye but that seems like a check to me. WoW is not a guarantee even at 85%.

Has anyone tried throwing Rocky Helmet on random Regenerator walls just to bait Kanga? Something like Slowbro or Alomomola could at least provide some defense for when Kanga gets to +2. Even Deo-D might be an OK idea.
Deoxys-D @ Red Card
Bold Nature
248 HP / 216 DEF / 44 SPE
0 ATK IV
~ Taunt
~ Recycle
~ Recover
~ Magic Coat

Deoxys-D's Red Card set actually puts Kangaskhan in a pretty bad position. As long as you can keep it alive, 252 ATK Adamant Kangaskhan can only manage a maximum of 54.7% damage with Return and only a maximum 58.4% damage with Crunch (which you won't see too often due to it being inferior to Sucker Punch), and is promptly forced out. Unable to secure a OHKO without getting incredibly lucky, Kangaskhan is worn down by repeated switch-ins, and spamming Power-Up Punch is punished thanks to Red Card, which forces Kangaskhan out immediately, making him a fantastic switch-in.

I've been playing with him. He does pretty well, I think, but requires a lot of team support to run effectively, and struggles to deal with Special Attackers. That is why you have 5 other teammates, though.

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 36 SDef / 252 HP / 220 Def or 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Impish/Careful Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off/Crunch
Clefable @ Leftovers
Unaware
252 HP / 252 DEF / 4 SpD
0 ATK IV
Bold Nature
~ Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Thunderbolt
~ Moonlight
~ Moonblast
~ Aromatherapy

I think this might make a good partner for this set. Unaware makes Clefable a fantastic switch-in to some pretty powerful physically-based set-up sweepers - Talonflame, (Jolly) Mega Lucario (surprisingly) - and sponges Fighting moves and other physical assaults Mama probably doesn't want to deal with, all while patching up her nasty little weakness to status. Physically Defensive Unaware Clefable is a lot tougher than you'd expect. These damage calculations probably aren't the most effective ones to make (and they're only against two Pokemon, but, whatever, they're obnoxiously strong ones), but they do give you a good idea of what she is able to survive through (and come out on top against):

252 HP / 252 DEF (Bold) Unaware Clefable vs.
252 ATK (Adamant) Mega Lucario Adaptability Close Combat (120 Base Power): (34.7 - 41.1%).
252 ATK (Adamant) Mega Lucario Adaptability Bullet Punch (40 Base Power): (46.7 - 55.8%).
252 ATK (Jolly) Mega Lucario Adaptability Close Combat (120 Base Power): (31.4 - 37.3%).
252 ATK (Jolly) Mega Lucario Adaptability Bullet Punch (40 Base Power): (42.6 - 50.7%).

252 ATK (Jolly) Talonflame w/Life Orb Flare Blitz / Brave Bird (120 Base Power): (41.6 - 48.7%).
 
How exactly does Knock Off interact with Parental Bond? Do both of the hits on its first use get the power boost, or just the first one? If both hits get the boost, it has an effective 243.75 BP over the course of two turns compared to Crunch's 240 BP; if not, it only gets 227.5 BP. Still, for taking off Leftovers, it's worth it. In particular, it lets Kangaskhan annoy Sableye; it won't want to stay in and take a burn, but it can Knock Off on the obvious switch-in and make Sableye's stalling capabilities reduced by that much for the rest of the match.

Seems to be only available from Gen 4, though, so it's Pokebank-only for the next month.
 
How exactly does Knock Off interact with Parental Bond? Do both of the hits on its first use get the power boost, or just the first one? If both hits get the boost, it has an effective 243.75 BP over the course of two turns compared to Crunch's 240 BP; if not, it only gets 227.5 BP. Still, for taking off Leftovers, it's worth it. In particular, it lets Kangaskhan annoy Sableye; it won't want to stay in and take a burn, but it can Knock Off on the obvious switch-in and make Sableye's stalling capabilities reduced by that much for the rest of the match.

Seems to be only available from Gen 4, though, so it's Pokebank-only for the next month.
Then again, Seismic Toss also is from Gen 4 only.

So, wouldn't the best possible pre-Pokebank set be Return/Sucker Punch/Power-Up Punch/Earthquake?
 
Then again, Seismic Toss also is from Gen 4 only.

So, wouldn't the best possible pre-Pokebank set be Return/Sucker Punch/Power-Up Punch/Earthquake?
For the last move, you could make a case for either Earthquake or Crunch. Crunch strikes me as a generally better option for making Kangaskhan not as decisively stopped by non-Sableye Ghost-types. Earthquake is better against Aegislash, but between Sucker Punch and Crunch, Kangaskhan should be able to win.
 
Deoxys-D @ Red Card
Bold Nature
248 HP / 216 DEF / 44 SPE
0 ATK IV
~ Taunt
~ Recycle
~ Recover
~ Magic Coat

Deoxys-D's Red Card set actually puts Kangaskhan in a pretty bad position. As long as you can keep it alive, 252 ATK Adamant Kangaskhan can only manage a maximum of 54.7% damage with Return and only a maximum 58.4% damage with Crunch (which you won't see too often due to it being inferior to Sucker Punch), and is promptly forced out. Unable to secure a OHKO without getting incredibly lucky, Kangaskhan is worn down by repeated switch-ins, and spamming Power-Up Punch is punished thanks to Red Card, which forces Kangaskhan out immediately, making him a fantastic switch-in.

I've been playing with him. He does pretty well, I think, but requires a lot of team support to run effectively, and struggles to deal with Special Attackers. That is why you have 5 other teammates, though.



Clefable @ Leftovers
Unaware
252 HP / 252 DEF / 4 SpD
0 ATK IV
Bold Nature
~ Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Thunderbolt
~ Moonlight
~ Moonblast
~ Aromatherapy

I think this might make a good partner for this set. Unaware makes Clefable a fantastic switch-in to some pretty powerful physically-based set-up sweepers - Talonflame, (Jolly) Mega Lucario (surprisingly) - and sponges Fighting moves and other physical assaults Mama probably doesn't want to deal with, all while patching up her nasty little weakness to status. Physically Defensive Unaware Clefable is a lot tougher than you'd expect. These damage calculations probably aren't the most effective ones to make (and they're only against two Pokemon, but, whatever, they're obnoxiously strong ones), but they do give you a good idea of what she is able to survive through (and come out on top against):

252 HP / 252 DEF (Bold) Unaware Clefable vs.
252 ATK (Adamant) Mega Lucario Adaptability Close Combat (120 Base Power): (34.7 - 41.1%).
252 ATK (Adamant) Mega Lucario Adaptability Bullet Punch (40 Base Power): (46.7 - 55.8%).
252 ATK (Jolly) Mega Lucario Adaptability Close Combat (120 Base Power): (31.4 - 37.3%).
252 ATK (Jolly) Mega Lucario Adaptability Bullet Punch (40 Base Power): (42.6 - 50.7%).

252 ATK (Jolly) Talonflame w/Life Orb Flare Blitz / Brave Bird (120 Base Power): (41.6 - 48.7%).
I started using Clefable as a partner for MKhan and I am absolutely loving it, although I'm running this set currently:

Clefable @ Lefties
Magic Guard
Bold, 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Aromatherapy
-Wish
-Moonblast
-Psyshock / Flamethrower

Flamethrower hits Steel types but Psyshock hits Gengar and other random Poison types on the switch, which has come in handy. Wish is fantastic for supporting MKhan as well since she lacks recovery. I like Magic Guard for ignoring opposing stallers and because I also use Talonflame, so I can basically count on Stealth Rock being set up around my team at all times.
 
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I've been using Rocky Helm Garchomp mainly for Kanga. I find that I need close to max speed in order to outspeed Kanga, as I've gotten beaten by a PuP EQ combo before. I want to force it to use Sucker Punch. I'm content with just trading 1 for 1, as it means the biggest threat on my opponent's team has been neutralized.

Does 252 hp 252 speed Rocky Helm Chomp still do OK against that support Kanga? It says I've got 420 HP so Seismic toss is a 3HKO, but I'm kinda scared of Kanga wearing me down with Wish/Protect.
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Kanga is a monster, once people stop using that terrible fake out set and instead switch it for an additional coverage move and watch it wreck major shit
 
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Unless of course you pokegen it which is pretty much standard as long as you run legal mons.

On topic: kanga is a monster, once people stop using that terrible fake out set and instead switch it for an additional coverage move and watch it wreck major shit
Whats bad with fake out? Free damage and great revenge killing potential and what coverage? Return/knock off/low kick cover everything
 
Whats bad with fake out? Free damage and great revenge killing potential and what coverage? Return/knock off/low kick cover everything
Fake Out is crazy weak and begs you to switch something to force MegaKan out. Sucker Punch is pretty much always going to be better.
Also, standard is Return / Earthquake / Sucker Punch / Power-Up-Punch, with Crunch getting slashes on either SP or PUP for consistency. It packs much more power that way.
 
Fake Out is crazy weak and begs you to switch something to force MegaKan out. Sucker Punch is pretty much always going to be better.
Also, standard is Return / Earthquake / Sucker Punch / Power-Up-Punch, with Crunch getting slashes on either SP or PUP for consistency. It packs much more power that way.
Well its takes out 30% on almost anything.. And I think knock off is better than crunch it got more bp on first hit and why not low kick? It's ou it got mosly 120 bp
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
The only thing fake out confers is the ability to whittle away sweepers who are threatening to sweep your team with the high priority fake out has, and eek out a sucker punch kill or something. It's really not that good, and most of the time kanga comes in your opponent is just going to bring in their best answer, and using fake out on something as its switches in is a bit wasteful. a 4 attack set with no boosting would be better at wall breaking, and a the PuP set, which is terrifying to face, has no room for fake out.
 
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