Linked

That calc is with a level 50 Aegislash. Here's what it looks like at level 100:
252 SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 100-118 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah... although Doom Desire does pivot you out, and it still hits very hard for being resisted.


And if a pokemon changes form(e)s in battle, then Doom Desire hits with the attack of the form(e) it's in when it switches in. So Doom Desire Aegislash is a bad idea in STABmons.
 
That calc is with a level 50 Aegislash. Here's what it looks like at level 100:
252 SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 100-118 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah... although Doom Desire does pivot you out, and it still hits very hard for being resisted.


And if a pokemon changes form(e)s in battle, then Doom Desire hits with the attack of the form(e) it's in when it switches in. So Doom Desire Aegislash is a bad idea in STABmons.
Yeah I figured (I clicked the VGC spread, that's why it shows as level 50). Still, 30% is a pretty high for a resisted hit, especially when you have another two incoming attacks that turn.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Marty, one of the simulators researchers, says items only affect Doom Desire/Future Sight if that Pokemon is still on the field when it hits. And I think most people know that boosts are calculated that way as well, so you can use DD and then use Calm Mind twice and DD will hit off the +2.
 
Marty, one of the simulators researchers, says items only affect Doom Desire/Future Sight if that Pokemon is still on the field when it hits. And I think most people know that boosts are calculated that way as well, so you can use DD and then use Calm Mind twice and DD will hit off the +2.
My research shows that specs will affect the damage even after the pokemon is switched out.
Proof:
Without specs, one without switching out, one with: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-234704619
With specs, one without switching out, one with: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-234705267
 
Tier update.

Ferrothorn from B to A-.
Its very good at punishing Physical Attackers, especially filnch spammers.

Quagsire from B to A-.
Unaware is a very valuable ability and Quagsire has only one weakness. It acts like a Physical version of Clefable. It may not be as good as Clefable, but it deserves at least A- rank.
 
You know, this meta just gave me an Idea for a different meta, based on Parental Bond.
That'd be fun...

I think I'll suggest that...
 
Tier update.

Ferrothorn from B to A-.
Its very good at punishing Physical Attackers, especially filnch spammers.

Quagsire from B to A-.
Unaware is a very valuable ability and Quagsire has only one weakness. It acts like a Physical version of Clefable. It may not be as good as Clefable, but it deserves at least A- rank.
Alright, edited the viability rankings with the shifts

Also, what do you guys think of Spite. In normal play it's kind of useless as most pokemon have better things to do than PP stall, but in this meta breaking a link might be very valuable, I can see something like a pressure stalling dusclops set working with it, possibly even grudge as well. Because things like talon rely heavily on their link to do damage, severing it early on might be useful to block a later sweep.

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 142-168 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and considering how talon is going to loose 6 PP every turn, and possibly even all in the case of a KO, this might be a good set to counter tflame
as a matter of fact (prepare for gimmicks!) you could use something like this:

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Serious Nature
- Spite
- Grudge/Night Shade
- Mean Look
- Night Shade/Grudge

It could work as a sort of suicide PP staller, mean look on a switch-in, and Spite their link out, and use grudge if they're locked and trapped into a link
 
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Actually, lowering moves might be useful to power through Unaware pokes. I remember my Clefable got defeated by this thing.

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fake Tears
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect

There's also Screech/Tickle + Physical moves. The downside of this is there is no Speed boosting move that can lowers your opponent stats. Hell, you can use this.

Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Metal Sound
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power Fire

You decrease your opponent's SpD, your Volt Switch really hurts and you switch to other special attackers because the stats that gets lowered stays, unlike when you boost your stats using Dragon Dance or something.
 
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Alright, edited the viability rankings with the tier shifts

Also, what do you guys think of Spite. In normal play it's kind of useless as most moves don't run out of PP that easily, but in this scenario breaking a link might be very valuable, I can see something like a pressure stalling dusclops set working with it, possibly even grudge as well. Because things like talon rely heavily on their link to do damage, severing it early on might be useful to block a later sweep.

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 142-168 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and considering how talon is going to loose 6 PP every turn, and possibly even all in the case of a KO, this might be a good set to counter tflame
as a matter of fact (prepare for gimmicks!) you could use something like this:

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Serious Nature
- Spite
- Grudge/Night Shade
- Mean Look
- Night Shade/Grudge

It could work as a sort of suicide PP staller, mean look on a switch-in, and Spite their link out, and use grudge if they're locked and trapped into a link
If we're talking about suiciding, Destiny Bond flatly outclasses Grudge. In any case, a PP staller should really be running some kind of recovery, IMO -- Pain Split, in this case.

I guess it could do work against, like, Clefable. But there are more generally good ways to deal with Clefable, like Toxic or just hitting it with two attacks at once, or the stat-lowering sets above. Metal Sound + Volt Switch in particular seems good at forcing out things that don't get KOed.

My favorite method for dealing with Unaware has been just linking two strong attacks and getting in right as they start boosting.
 
I see megas are not very used here. The main problem of the megas is they can't hold Scarf, which means they are kinda slow. The viable megas are the bulky ones (Aggron, Slowbro) or the Dragon Dancing ones (Charizard-X, Altaria) because they can compensate its "low" Speed. Other megas rely on priority (Pinsir).

But I think things like this can be viable for megas.

Sharpedo @ Sharpedonite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Ice Fang/Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Protect

Probably one of the rare megas that isn't a wall or Dragon Dancing. Protect first turn, then use the Crunch + Ice fang link. The advantage of this over DD megas? Set up sweepers with Dragon Dance can't break Subtoxic Gliscor, this can. Aqua Jet is for Talonflame, Ice Fang is for better coverage than Waterfall.
 
I see megas are not very used here. The main problem of the megas is they can't hold Scarf, which means they are kinda slow. The viable megas are the bulky ones (Aggron, Slowbro) or the Dragon Dancing ones (Charizard-X, Altaria) because they can compensate its "low" Speed. Other megas rely on priority (Pinsir).

But I think things like this can be viable for megas.

Sharpedo @ Sharpedonite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Ice Fang/Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Protect

Probably one of the rare megas that isn't a wall or Dragon Dancing. Protect first turn, then use the Crunch + Ice fang link. The advantage of this over DD megas? Set up sweepers with Dragon Dance can't break Subtoxic Gliscor, this can. Aqua Jet is for Talonflame, Ice Fang is for better coverage than Waterfall.
I'd say that Ice fang/waterfall would be better in the first slot, as you can run assurance as your dark STAB to get the doubled power boost since the opponent has already been damaged
 
I'd say that Ice fang/waterfall would be better in the first slot, as you can run assurance as your dark STAB to get the doubled power boost since the opponent has already been damaged
Strong Jaw Crunch is just as powerful as 120BP Assurance, and you can run it first to let Ice Fang / Waterfall wreck Gliscor/Dragonite.

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 141-166 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Assurance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 141-166 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 186-222 (52.5 - 62.7%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 304-360 (85.8 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
but wait assurance is actually a lord move now that you brought it up. Weavile with knock + assurance is dealing big damage to your jirachis.
Does shell bell effect endeavor? If so, final gambit endeavor Staraptor will ONE SHOT ANYTHING NOT GHOST TYPE. Holy. Shit. As is only rocky helmet stops it, i'm going to use that too
 
but wait assurance is actually a lord move now that you brought it up. Weavile with knock + assurance is dealing big damage to your jirachis.
Does shell bell effect endeavor? If so, final gambit endeavor Staraptor will ONE SHOT ANYTHING NOT GHOST TYPE. Holy. Shit. As is only rocky helmet stops it, i'm going to use that too
Yes, shell bell will affect endeavor, but for Staraptor to work, it needs to endeavor first then final gambit, which will not benefit from shell bell.
There are a lot of ways to stop it: ghosts, rocky helm/iron barbs/roughskin, faster pokemon that break sash and kill if sashed, faster pokemon that can ohko if scarfed.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Yes, shell bell will affect endeavor, but for Staraptor to work, it needs to endeavor first then final gambit, which will not benefit from shell bell.
There are a lot of ways to stop it: ghosts, rocky helm/iron barbs/roughskin, faster pokemon that break sash and kill if sashed, faster pokemon that can ohko if scarfed.
well no shell bell gives you hp so then final gambit hits for more damage, offsetting the roughskin damage. Even breaking sash isnt enough since the combo kills, so only faster OHKOs and ghosts stop it.
 
but wait assurance is actually a lord move now that you brought it up. Weavile with knock + assurance is dealing big damage to your jirachis.
Does shell bell effect endeavor? If so, final gambit endeavor Staraptor will ONE SHOT ANYTHING NOT GHOST TYPE. Holy. Shit. As is only rocky helmet stops it, i'm going to use that too
Weavile with Power-up Punch + Assurance is the most common link, as it also gives you +1 Attack. As for Shell Bell, I wouldn't recommend it.

Say, your Staraptor has 374 HP. Rough Skin deals 1/8 of your full health, while Shell Bell recovers 1/8 of the damage dealt, so unless Staraptor deal at least 374 damage with Endeavor, it won't kill because of Rough Skin.

Also, for Rocky Helmet, it deals 1/6 from your HP. 374/6 = 62. 62 x 8 = 496. So your Staraptor needs to deal 496 damage to have your health back.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Chopin is right--unless you are at very low HP those shenanigans do not work. And to get to low HP, you will usually have to hold a Focus Sash, but since you are discussing Shell Bell that is impossible. Basically Endeavor and Final Gambit with Shell Bell is a shitty gimmick that will hardly ever work, especially as no Pokemon gets this combination with Sturdy. Tbh, Shell Bell in general is usually bad, except on FEAR Aron (which is a gimmick in itself lol).
 
Chopin is right--unless you are at very low HP those shenanigans do not work. And to get to low HP, you will usually have to hold a Focus Sash, but since you are discussing Shell Bell that is impossible. Basically Endeavor and Final Gambit with Shell Bell is a shitty gimmick that will hardly ever work, especially as no Pokemon gets this combination with Sturdy. Tbh, Shell Bell in general is usually bad, except on FEAR Aron (which is a gimmick in itself lol).
Shell Bell may work if the Pokemon using it is quite bulky and can take a hit, but in this case Staraptor is like a wet paper bag so it HAS to run focus sash or choice scarf for endeavor+final gambit to work.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Chopin is right--unless you are at very low HP those shenanigans do not work. And to get to low HP, you will usually have to hold a Focus Sash, but since you are discussing Shell Bell that is impossible. Basically Endeavor and Final Gambit with Shell Bell is a shitty gimmick that will hardly ever work, especially as no Pokemon gets this combination with Sturdy. Tbh, Shell Bell in general is usually bad, except on FEAR Aron (which is a gimmick in itself lol).
wait i figured it out. First you trick room u-turn with like celebi or something then endevor dragon rage sweep with a low level kyurem
oml whats stopping you besides protect to stall out room? and ghosts ofc
too bad ptect is semi common because this is a lord strategy. I swear aegislash is a staple on all of my teams from now on
 
So, according to the replay here, if you use unlinked Resttalk, Sleep Talk doesn't select the first move.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linked-2150255

The Suicune has Scald/Calm Mind/Rest/Sleep Talk. As you can see, Sleep Talk never select Scald, which is in the first moveslot. Me and DarkeKnight tried testing the same thing before but with Scald and Calm Mind switched. As a result, Sleep Talk never selects Calm Mind. Is this intentional? Or a bug?
 
So, according to the replay here, if you use unlinked Resttalk, Sleep Talk doesn't select the first move.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linked-2150255

The Suicune has Scald/Calm Mind/Rest/Sleep Talk. As you can see, Sleep Talk never select Scald, which is in the first moveslot. Me and DarkeKnight tried testing the same thing before but with Scald and Calm Mind switched. As a result, Sleep Talk never selects Calm Mind. Is this intentional? Or a bug?
Well from a test which occured after that, sleep talk did select the first move, so DarkeKinght probably just had horrid luck with the Sleep Talk selection
 
So, according to the replay here, if you use unlinked Resttalk, Sleep Talk doesn't select the first move.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linked-2150255

The Suicune has Scald/Calm Mind/Rest/Sleep Talk. As you can see, Sleep Talk never select Scald, which is in the first moveslot. Me and DarkeKnight tried testing the same thing before but with Scald and Calm Mind switched. As a result, Sleep Talk never selects Calm Mind. Is this intentional? Or a bug?
Well from a test which occured after that, sleep talk did select the first move, so DarkeKinght probably just had horrid luck with the Sleep Talk selection
goomy said there was 1% chance of it happening. Just my luck. xD
But yeah, Slayer95 tested it in another game and it worked.
 
If I may mention, Serperior is Jesus and crocune is God... Serperior has the contrary boost... And some healing, a great move combo to link is leaf storm and giga drain, you can have spatk boost, allot with healing from the giga drain, the combo is linking it so leaf storm goes first and giga drain goes second, so you can get fully healed from the giga drain! And I've mentioned crocune...
 
20 pages is a lot of reading so I thought I'd summarise what you can do by linking.
  • Momentum:
    • Stat-lowering attack + U-turn/Volt Switch. Gets rid of your stat drops.
    • Recharging/locking move + Baton Pass. Sylveon can use Pixilate Hyper Beam + Baton Pass. Using U-turn/Volt Switch fails when you KO the opponent.
    • Fake Out + switching move. Particularly annoying when there are two of them. Needs a fast user because nobody with Prankster leans both Fake Out and Baton Pass.
    • Phazing + switching move. Force your opponent to switch and get a free switch in to your counter.
    • Trick Room + switching move. Get your Trick Room user in without wasting time. Slowest switch in the book.
    • RegenTurn. Even worse because you now have an extra attack.
    • Rapid Spin + switching move. Get that safe switch-in.
    • Boost + Baton Pass.
  • Priority needs both moves to have priority:
    • Prankster + two status/priority moves, e.g. SubSeed.
    • Gale Wings + two flying-type moves. Possibilities:
      • Acrobatics: Needs you to run without an item for decent power.
      • Aerial Ace: No recoil but not much power either, so unlikely to break subs.
      • Brave Bird: Power but recoil.
      • Roost.
    • Feint + Quick Attack (Mega Pinsir particularly).
    • Feint/Fake Out + Extreme Speed. Still has +2 priority.
    • Aqua Jet + Ice Shard.
    • Greninja gets Shadow Sneak + Water Shuriken.
    • Hitmontop gets Technician + Bullet Punch + Mach Punch.
  • Two status moves:
    • Substitute + recovery (or draining move). Particularly handy on Dragonite because it re-establishes Multiscale.
    • Boosting move + recovery, for stall types.
    • Boosting move + boosting move, e.g. Swords Dance + Rock Polish.
    • Defog + Stealth Rock. At least you still have some hazards up.
    • Hazards + Hazards, e.g. Spikes + Toxic Spikes. Get those hazards up more quickly.
    • Hazards + phazing. Make immediate use of those hazards.
    • Recovery + recovery. Like Rest but without the sleep.
    • Encore (or Choice Scarf + Trick) + Disable. (Best Prankster version is Encore + Torment.)
    • Toxic + Substitute. Popular on Gliscor because of the Poison Heal recovery.
    • Phazing + recovery.
    • Dual Screens (Klefki and Meowstic can do this with Prankster too).
    • Belly Drum + recovery. Can be used if you're down to under 50%, as the Belly Drum will fail, but the recovery will still work.
    • RestTalk. Could be annoying if you have a phazing move. Also works with Prankster and Guts.
  • Status move + attack:
    • Boosting move + attack. It's like a free power-up punch/flame charge. Could work well with Simple. I think this works with moves with semi-invulnerable turns too, and also Sky Drop for maximum annoyance. And there's always Belly Drum + Explosion.
    • Set-up move + attack. Examples:
      • Lock On/Mind Reader + Dynamic Punch/Inferno/Zap Cannon
      • Sunny Day + Solar Beam
      • Rain Dance + Thunder/Hurricane
      • Terrain + Nature Power
      • Smack Down + Earthquake
      • Miracle Eye + Psychic
      • Foresight + Rapid Spin/Feint/Drain Punch
  • Attack + status move:
    • Recoil move + recovery (e.g. Brave Bird + Roost above).
    • Life Orb attack + recovery.
  • Two attacks (fake Parental Bond to break subs):
    • Feint + Attack. Loses priority, but still hits twice through Protect. Particularly useful for Mega Pinsir with Aerilate as it hits Ghosts.
    • Attack + stat-lowering Attack. Sure, the second attack lowers your stats, but both attacks are at full power.
    • Attack + Assurance. Doubles the power of Assurance.
    • Attack + Last Resort. (Only with two moves in your moveset, or perhaps with Fake Out and/or Protect.)
    • STAB + STAB. Something's bound to give, particularly if you have Adaptability or Tinted Lens.
    • STAB + Coverage. Useful if your strong STAB has immunities.
  • More specific options:
    • Copycat. Execute the same move twice. Particularly fun for Spinda (Contrary + Superpower + CopyCat).
    • Serene Grace + Iron Head + Zen Headbutt/Body Slam for paraflinch hax.
    • Skill Link + two multi-hit moves + King's Rock, for a 65% flinch chance. EDIT: Now banned.
    • Trapping move + Perish Song.
    • Fake Out + Transform.
    • Super Fang + Brine. Unless your opponent is at full odd health, doubles the power of Brine.
    • Seismic Toss + Night Shade. Guaranteed at least one hit. (Super Fang + Seismic Toss was banned of course.)
    • Metal Burst + negative priority for a reliable CounterCoat.
    • Recover + Water Spout. Always has at least 75 power.
    • Recycle + Fling, assuming you don't lose your item to Knock Off on your first turn. Works well with King's Rock.
    • Recycle + Rest + Chesto Berry.
    • Aegislash gets Shadow Sneak + King's Shield. Even if you have priority (to avoid hitting the King's Shield), you don't get to hit him in Blade Forme. EDIT: Now banned.
    • Focus Punch + Sky Drop. On the turn the Sky Drop executes, your opponent can't move, so the Focus Punch succeeds. EDIT: Now banned.
    • Endeavor + Final Gambit. (Doesn't work against Rough Skin or Rocky Helmet.)
    • Victini gets Fusion Bolt + Fusion Flare. This doubles the power of Fusion Flare. (Are there any other moves like this? Only Smeargle can learn two Pledge moves, so that's not useful.)
    • Clear Smog + Giga Drain.
Well, that turned out a bit longer than I expected. Let me add some gimmicks for you:
  • Soak + Toxic. To stall out those Steel types.
  • Soak + Volt Switch (Lanturn). Volt Switch is now super-effective against many annoying Ground types.
  • Hydration + Rain Dance + Rest + rain-boosted moves. (Doesn't work on the last turn of rain.)
  • Sadly you can't unlink your linked moves, otherwise I would suggest Electrify + Hyper Voice (Heliolisk).
 
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