Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)

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To get back to the Togekiss speculation, I think it has the potential to become part of a pretty effective defensive core. Something like Togekiss/Excadrill/Gengar would give you pretty good resisted coverage, only really fearing the rare physical fire move or specs/rain boosted Rotom-W. The fact that Togekiss can still be reliably 2HKO'd by offensive Garchomp and Latios even without SR means that Togekiss is less of a hard counter and more of a situational check based on prediction, but just having that dragon immunity on your team means that the days of having to sack something to the 'click draco meteor' button will be over at least.

I'm just hoping that picking up a weakness to Scizor doesn't mean the end for Togeplane's OU ambitions.
 
based on theory i think this is how the ditto stuff might work.

yes it can transform into the mega evolution if you switched in the ditto on a mega,
but it will count as one mega-evolution used
even if you have say an ampharos with the mega stone in your team,
you cannot mega evolve ampharos anymore because you already have the "ditto" mega and there is a limit of one mega per trainer in a battle

and vice versa if you already have mega ampharos on your team, later you switched in a ditto on a mega. the ditto will fail to transform or transform into the original form

and yea togekiss is pretty much OU for next gen. And don't forget there might be a fairy move or two that would benefit greatly from serene grace
 
Do you guys think these mechanics will be insta-banned or will we be blowing on our computer screens for the next few years ("staying true to the game")?

Well technically they are game mechanics so they shouldn't be banned. However, if some of the pokemons take why too much advantage, for example a Super Luck Honchkrow with Scope Lens/Lansat berry abusing Night Slash with affection raising it even higher, then the pokemon should be suspected.
 
So I REALLY don't know what sort of role to expect Dragalgae to pull with these stats
63-79/77-93/82-97/85-100/123-139/54-69
Mediocre hp, passable attack, meh defense, use if you have to special attack, high special defense, and log speed.
Poison point isn't the most exciting ability
It looks slow and defensive, but so far the move pool doesn't lend anything to that end.

The typing is interesting though. Nice set of resists: Water, Fire, Electric, Grass, bug, poison, fighting
No TOO many weaknesses... fairy, ice, dragon, psychic, ground

Recovery would be cool... can it have recovery? Because if not, I don't really see this one going a lot of places...
 
Shit that I am interested on:

- Goodra: Setting aside the whole "Goodra is god" joke, this thing is interesting, in a sense that it is the first defensive Dragon type we got since Latias and with an interesting ability in Sap Sipper and Hydration. Right from day 1, its stats basically screams "Spam Dragon STAB" which is nerfed by Fairy type addition in this gen. Unlike Dragonite, it has no SR weakness, and as a bonus, with Hydration it have a bizzare way to reliably recover itself through HydraRest. I don't see it doing in high OU since its questionable by Gen 5 OU standrard(can't get worse than "Switch in Garchomp on my face, or worse Latias really"), but overall, it seems fun

- Zygarde: What's with GF obsession with Camouflage this gen? This bizzare offspring from Giratina and Volcarona is in a gray zone because its base speed is unknown, and it does not seems to be a fast pokemon either(certainly not as fast as Chompah). Either way, a potential for 112/137 P. Defense is pretty huge, and, sadly its ability is only useful against Xemeas and Yveltal, all of which, in my speculation seems to be designed for Doubles. Regardless, im waiting for its new forme, but its certainly interesting for the moment(Defensive Dragon Type is awesome and you should feel bad if you dislike those >_>)

- Hawlucha: 110 Base Speed is pretty amazing and 90-ish offense is plenty I guess. Uncrobatic combo is cool, and it have Power Up Punch(which IIRC is a Fighting Type Charge Beam for ATK?). There is still no confirmation on how Dual Type move works, so lets leave it at there. Overall it might be a cool late game sweeper. Or lets hope it have U Turn

- Tyrantrum: Choice Scarf. Spam 225 BP Head Smash. Im so pro. Now lets hope it have Dual Chop. Assuming it was a 30% Boost, Tyrantrum have 102 BP Cruch and 52 BP Dual Chop, which is "not bad"

- Honedge: I think a single look at its base stats + no gimmick can tell you why its more interesting than its unique evo. 150 Defense + Eviolite resulted in quite a nice bulk, it have Swords Dance to buff its stats and it have SS + Night Slash for STAB choice. Swords Dance, Night Slash, Shadow Sneak, Sacred Sword? Perhaps replace Night Slash with something more legit like Iron Head. Also it have Will-o-wisp

- Pangoro: Pangoro is awesome because it can kill Gastrodon with Surf and use Parting Shot against Metagross. Pro Strategy right thar. 110/80/80 bulk? 130 ATK? HAX

- Florges: In Doubles: Assuming it works like that, Spam Leaf Storm, all day, every day. In singles: Run a Physically defensive set I guess? This thing seems to be the new Blissey for this gen, and a complete Scizor Bait.
 
Zygarde is outclassed by garchomp. All it has going for it is 130ish defense, but chomp is better in every other way. Faster, stronger and has a mega form. Goodra sounds like a good addition to rain teams. Its a hydration wall that covers rain team weakness instead of adding to them, unlike vaporeon. It also has decent offenses, and has the potential to have a good movepool due to being dragon. Definitely looking foward to it.
 
So I REALLY don't know what sort of role to expect Dragalgae to pull with these stats
63-79/77-93/82-97/85-100/123-139/54-69
Mediocre hp, passable attack, meh defense, use if you have to special attack, high special defense, and log speed.
Poison point isn't the most exciting ability
It looks slow and defensive, but so far the move pool doesn't lend anything to that end.

The typing is interesting though. Nice set of resists: Water, Fire, Electric, Grass, bug, poison, fighting
No TOO many weaknesses... fairy, ice, dragon, psychic, ground

Recovery would be cool... can it have recovery? Because if not, I don't really see this one going a lot of places...

Dragalge is not weak to Fairy; Poison resists Fairy and therefore cancels out Dragon's weakness.
 
Sorry if it's a dumb post, but is there any chance for Yveltal to be OU?

I don't know how his abillity work, but from what I saw he is more bulky than powerful with a typing that is meh deffensively, with weakness to some common types like Electric and Ice, also SR weak and weak to the new Fairy type he seriously sounds better on Uber with all the Psychic types and only 1 Uber Fairy type for now, than OU where there are lots of Fighting and possible Fairy mons who will stop him from just spamming dark atacks (Fighting types do fear Flying atacks, but they can switch on a predicted Dark atack and KO back since they normally outspeed and carry either Ice or Rock coverage), but of course I may be very wrong because I don't know how his abillity work and his movepol I only saw his base stats on another topic.
 
Shit that I am interested on:

- Goodra: Setting aside the whole "Goodra is god" joke, this thing is interesting, in a sense that it is the first defensive Dragon type we got since Latias and with an interesting ability in Sap Sipper and Hydration. Right from day 1, its stats basically screams "Spam Dragon STAB" which is nerfed by Fairy type addition in this gen. Unlike Dragonite, it has no SR weakness, and as a bonus, with Hydration it have a bizzare way to reliably recover itself through HydraRest. I don't see it doing in high OU since its questionable by Gen 5 OU standrard(can't get worse than "Switch in Garchomp on my face, or worse Latias really"), but overall, it seems fun

- Zygarde: What's with GF obsession with Camouflage this gen? This bizzare offspring from Giratina and Volcarona is in a gray zone because its base speed is unknown, and it does not seems to be a fast pokemon either(certainly not as fast as Chompah). Either way, a potential for 112/137 P. Defense is pretty huge, and, sadly its ability is only useful against Xemeas and Yveltal, all of which, in my speculation seems to be designed for Doubles. Regardless, im waiting for its new forme, but its certainly interesting for the moment(Defensive Dragon Type is awesome and you should feel bad if you dislike those >_>)

- Hawlucha: 110 Base Speed is pretty amazing and 90-ish offense is plenty I guess. Uncrobatic combo is cool, and it have Power Up Punch(which IIRC is a Fighting Type Charge Beam for ATK?). There is still no confirmation on how Dual Type move works, so lets leave it at there. Overall it might be a cool late game sweeper. Or lets hope it have U Turn

- Tyrantrum: Choice Scarf. Spam 225 BP Head Smash. Im so pro. Now lets hope it have Dual Chop. Assuming it was a 30% Boost, Tyrantrum have 102 BP Cruch and 52 BP Dual Chop, which is "not bad"

- Honedge: I think a single look at its base stats + no gimmick can tell you why its more interesting than its unique evo. 150 Defense + Eviolite resulted in quite a nice bulk, it have Swords Dance to buff its stats and it have SS + Night Slash for STAB choice. Swords Dance, Night Slash, Shadow Sneak, Sacred Sword? Perhaps replace Night Slash with something more legit like Iron Head. Also it have Will-o-wisp

- Pangoro: Pangoro is awesome because it can kill Gastrodon with Surf and use Parting Shot against Metagross. Pro Strategy right thar. 110/80/80 bulk? 130 ATK? HAX

- Florges: In Doubles: Assuming it works like that, Spam Leaf Storm, all day, every day. In singles: Run a Physically defensive set I guess? This thing seems to be the new Blissey for this gen, and a complete Scizor Bait.

Goodra: I don't think his Dragon STAB matters as much, because it's defensively inclinded Pokemon, and Dragon typing is INCREDIBLE at taking special hits, which it specializes anyway (Electric, Water, Grass, Fire are really near resists). In other words I don't think Fairies will be much of a problem, because your job with Goodra won't be sweeping anyway, but tanking/walling. For Goodra Fairies sounds more like annoyance then 100% full stop like for more offensively inclined Dragons.

Zygarde: I won't say anything yet, as I still wonder how his ability REALLY works. If it affects moves like Aura Sphere, then it may be actually really damn neat Poke.

Hawlucha: Screams Acrobatics + Flying Gem + Unburden (and hopefully Swords Dance), although Choice Band sounds good as well coming of usable attack, good speed and many Flying/Fighting moves have really HIGH base damage (Brave Bird, Close Combat, High Jump Kick, etc.) so really damn high base power of those move will make up for lower attack. Also No SR weakness + Immunities to Spikes/Toxic Spikes are great for Choice user.

Tyrantrum: I think it may work as a Specially Defensive Hard Hitting Tank under Sandstorm as Rock gives it 50% Special Defence Boost, which is nice. And Dragon/Rock gives you different set of resistances then Dark/Rock (TTar) without glaring x4 weakness like in case of TTar. For example Rock/Dragon combo means resisting both STAB type attacks from Thundurus/Thundurus-T and you take Focus Blast with much higher comfort then Tyranitar. Also Dragon cancels out many of bad Rock weaknesses (No Water and Grass weaknesses) and Dragon/Rock has some good resistances on special side (x2 Electric Resist, x2 Flying Resist for Hurricanes, x4 Fire Resist, x2 Poison Resist Which suddenly may become viable with Fairies around). So Tyrantrum may end up as... another slow, hard hitting tank which this Gen loves as long as you provide him with Sandstorm Support.

Honedge: I think this is one of those rare times, where I actually want to use prevo more then final stage, as Eviolite Doublade reaches ridiculous defensive stats and unlike Cresselia your offensive presence actually exists. Right now this may be my Ghost Pick for Stall/Balanced teams, although Starmie like always still sounds like annoyance for this one as well.

Pangoro: It's a Pokemon, which is hard to judge now. If he were in previous Gen, I would call him straight up great with those stats and godlike Dark/Fighting typing. But right now when Fairy walls both those STABS... it suddenly looks much less appealing. Although I need to say that his abilities are both good, and 110/80/80 bulk is more then workable for more defensive sets as well (ignoring for example Multiscale sounds neat). I really want to see his movepool (it may be really good, as many dark and fighting types have great movepools), as this may be deciding factor if it is good or not. Give him good set-up moves like Dragon Dance or Swords Dance with Iron First Mach Punch and he may own. Or he may provide nothing new to metagame.

Florges: Great Typing, Mixed Feeling on stats though, especially when LOTS of new stuff and old Pokemon getting Fairy typing gets beastly special bulk like him, so the amount of competition may be too much. And if it gets lots of Grass Support move like Sleep Powder/Spore/Stun Spore, etc. then new Grass Types mechanic hurts this guy really damn much. While we're at it, Breelom so far dislike those as well.

Also the thing I like about GameFreak drastically decreasing speed on all good Pokemon (most of them are really damn slow) which may allow some wallbreakers to make a comeback or allow them to shine. Look for example on Nidoking - Sheer Force Nidoking actually hits really hard and his coverage is godlike (and add to this that STAB Sludge Bomb which suddenly becomes viable with Fairies and improved Grass types ignoring Spore/Sleep Powders and stuff) and you may deal with something that many slower teams won't enjoy. Only problem IMO Nidoking had was his mediocre speed, but if metagame slows down by a decent margin, he should one of those picks I really will consider for some Gen 6 teams.
 
Considering Zygarde... Kyurem Base Forme isn't exactly threatening either. I mean, it was banned from UU, but fail to hit the usage to make it even into OU. Gen. IV also had a cave-dwelling endgame beast that fit snugly into the Standard metagame, hardly ever being suggested for bannage to Ubers.

Then again, it might still have surprises for us. I mean, Shaymin-S neither has outstanding stats nor ability, but the combination of what it has is extremely potent. For all we know, Zygarde has some hidden sleeve with a trick hidden in it. Either way, it's a clear candidate for version mascot of the inevitable follow-up game, which traditionally tends to bring a solid dose of badassery to the table.
 
Looking at the incoming base stats, idk how this is going to end up for stall. So far from what I have seen, very few Pokemon stand out defensively over past Pokemon, a few Pokemon are in the 90/120 defense range but that's about it. I could be underestimating a lot of these Pokemon though, after all Jellicent looks kind of mediocre on paper, but its typing and moves allow it to stand out. However, on the bright side a lot more of the Pokemon, especially the mega-evolutions, are just so much bulkier, I think this generation will bring back a lot of the tanky-ness that OU has been craving for a while now. I am actually wondering if we could be looking at a gen 1-esc battle style where most Pokemon used have a solid defense and you don't really "sweep" until the end game.

Overall, I think full stall might have issues, but the evening out of defense allows for some interesting alternatives in defensive play.
 
Goodra seems as an excellent special wall for rain teams (85 / 80 / 143 bulk), that unlike most Hydration users doesn't stack weaknesses with Politoed, while also having a very respectable SpA stat of ~117.

Sylveon is another new special wall with great special bulk ( 95 / 60-65 / 130), good typing, respectable offensive prowess (110 SpA and 95 BP move) and Wish, making a good addition for stall teams.

Klefki also has a lot of potential on defensive teams, with amazing Steel / Fairy typing, Prankster, and usable bulk (50 / 90 / 80), so if it gets the right movepool it might have a chance at OU. After all, Sableye is a very viable Pokemon in OU, mostly because of good typing, Prankster, its ability to spinblock, and a good movepool. Klefki already has two of those traits (Prankster and good typing), as well as way better stats, so it really only misses on a good movepool.

As for old Pokemon that changed typing or got MEvos, Togekiss and MegaVenusaur seem as they might have lot of defensive potential. The first is a good check to most Dragon-types with the added Fairy typing, has great all around bulk, and provides Heal Bell and Thunder Wave support, while the latter has only two weaknesses (Flying and Psychic) and lots of useful resistances (Fighting, Fairy, Grass, Electric, Water), great bulk (80 / 120 / 120 iirc, but don't quote me on that), good offensive presence, and useful support moves such as Leech Seed and Sleep Powder. Only downer with MegaVenusaur is its lack of Lefties + reliable recovery, which admittedly will hurt its viability as a defensive Pokemon in a metagame dominated by sand and rain.

Come on GF, give us a good defensive MEvo with Regenerator...
 
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DO: Talk about what you think might be OU, and back it up with info.

DON'T: Talk about tiering philosophy/initial bans etc.

Why? : because that's not the point of this thread

Plus this:
Looks like this thread is being derailed to whether we should have an initial banlist, at the beginning of the X/Y era, or not. Just let me say that the fact that a few currently Uber Pokemon might get 1/2 new checks in X/Y is largely irrelevant.

Thank you.
 
Mega Venusaur does have Synthesis, so there's that. Synthesis, Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb, Leech Seed, and Sleep Powder. Not sure if the moves are compatible but if they are that could prove to be an annoying set.
 
Uh what are Mega-Venusaur's base stats anyway? I have been looking around and no one seems to have calced them yet.

Anyway, idk about that set, without Leftovers its going to be meh, and I am willing to bet that this gen rain-sand-hail will be just as popular as they are now, mitigating Synthesis recovery. I am thinking more along the lines of Sleep Powder / Sludge Bomb / Giga Drain / Coverage Move or Stun Spore which depending on how powerful Venusaur it it will make it a pretty solid tank and stopper.

I am rather hoping that one of the mega-evolutions will have Regenerator and will be defensive, as that would be the best stop at a real defensive wall mega, otherwise I don't see them as much use on stall outside niche-checks, because again no lefties sucks. Chansey only gets by because of her shear bulk.
 
Uh what are Mega-Venusaur's base stats anyway? I have been looking around and no one seems to have calced them yet.

Anyway, idk about that set, without Leftovers its going to be meh, and I am willing to bet that this gen rain-sand-hail will be just as popular as they are now, mitigating Synthesis recovery. I am thinking more along the lines of Sleep Powder / Sludge Bomb / Giga Drain / Coverage Move or Stun Spore which depending on how powerful Venusaur it it will make it a pretty solid tank and stopper.

I am rather hoping that one of the mega-evolutions will have Regenerator and will be defensive, as that would be the best stop at a real defensive wall mega, otherwise I don't see them as much use on stall outside niche-checks, because again no lefties sucks. Chansey only gets by because of her shear bulk.
80/100/120/100/120/80 give or take.
It was the first set of stats given for a mega actually.
 
80/100/120/100/120/80 give or take.
It was the first set of stats given for a mega actually.

As well it should be, given its status as the first line in the pokedex.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the pokemon given to us, old and new. I'm really excited about Togekiss, whose considerable bulk, access to recovery, shiny new typing, and broad movepool should give it a great niche in OU. With a simple set of Fairy / Flying / Aura / Filler, Kiss can hit every pokemon except Aegislash for neutral coverage and has a filler slot to pass Wishes, heal itself, launch paralysis, boost, whatever. Specs Togekiss is another option with Flamethrower rounding out its coverage. In either case, our first pokemon to use Chomp as setup fodder has quite a lot going for it.
 
Chomp does have Stone Edge, so you can never be too sure, especially if one decides to run a 4 attack set. With base 170 atk naive nature, and 252 EV's it 2HKOs 252/0 Togekiss. But it will still counter the majority of Chomp sets.
 
I updated the title in order to avoid any confusion.

I'll also start to update the OP with stats when the are posted and confirmed and when i get the chance
EDIT:probably only for relevant pokemon/ pokemon in the OP
 
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What does everyone think of Dragalge serving as a potential rain check? Going off of its calculated stats and the 525 BST of its counterpart, Clawitzer, it seems like the following is a likely spread: 70 / 85 / 90 / 100 / 125 / 55.

That, combined with its resistances to Water, Electric, Grass, and Fighting, could make it a decent tank or Specs user. And as a poison type, it has the added benefit of absorbing Toxic Spikes.

On the other hand, it might serve as a great asset to Rain, with its Dragon-typing helping it check some of sun's largest threats and boosting its [potential] fire attacks. It also has access to Hydro Pump to take advantage of the rain, only really fearing Ferrothorn. The only problem is that Goodra will probably outclass it as a bulky, SpD Dragon-type in terms of rain, thanks to HydraRest.
 
Just throwing out there that based on this thread's calculations (http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...e-bulk-in-the-uber-tier.3473501/#post-4431407) Avaluggs physical bulk is likely about the same as Giratinas overall physical bulk.

127 in Defense Tier
  • The Great Wall & Boosting Tank Giratina (127.37)

Avalugg with 95 base hp and 180 base def reaches 127.99, almost reaching Multiscale Lugia Tier
[ 95 / 180 are estimates, but should be close to Avaluggs real base stats ]

I know SR and its weaknesses make it worse, but it's still quite impressive and could make up for it's bad defensive typing a little bit... although it'll still die from most decent special hits :/ so it'll likely not be too useful, I just felt like talking about it.
 
I see a lot of discussion about Togekiss being a Fairy/Flying type and everything but I have yet to see any confirmation sources at all. Would anyone like to post them?
 
I see a lot of discussion about Togekiss being a Fairy/Flying type and everything but I have yet to see any confirmation sources at all. Would anyone like to post them?

I double checked and there isn't any confirmation unfortunately. Just earlier rumors from Pokebeach and a 4chan page that is no longer there. I remember the 4chan page having nearly every rumor Pokebeach had with a few extras. Pokebeach rumored that "other Pokemon that are now Fairy-type: the Chansey evolution line, Dunsparce, the Clefairy line, and Togepi’s line." Pokebeach has been wrong on some rumors (Greninja being Water/Fighting), but they've been correct on nearly everything else.

But the jury is still out on that one, so my mistake.

I am not sold on Avalugg. Ice typing is just absolutely brutal to have defensively. Even the most defensive 'mon takes a huge hit in effectiveness when it's weak to SR. It doesn't look like the big guy is going to get any reliable recovery either from a design standpoint, but I could be totally wrong. We'll see.

I'm not sold on Sylveon. It's special bulk is great no doubt. But 95/60-65 is not going to get it done as far as abusing Cute Charm. It'd be nice if there was a second ability.
 
No, I believe Kanpachi confirmed that Togepi has been changed to pure Fairy. The assumption is that Togekiss ends up Fairy/Flying.
 
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