np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[Benlisted]

Whats the big deal about banning abilities on just a certain pokemon anyway? It's not like there's a law stopping us from doing so. If it helps make a more desirable metagame why not do it? I just don't understand the controversy.
I got my rating, i earned my rating, and im going to vote for what i want regardless of what you guys argue about here. Im pretty sure everyone with voting rights knows what their going to vote against already. I'm going to vote for what i think will make a more fun metagame. I think too many people forget that this is for fun.

If you mean a ban on something like Shadow Tag Shanderaa, then there are several issues. We could ban abilities on many pokemon, or other broken aspects, in order to make them not broken, but doing so would make things excessively complex.

I'm not trying to change your vote - I'm just pointing out that the logic of your nomination is in question when Drought is currently held in check by Rain and SS. In any case, we have no idea whaich nominations will make it to suspect status, so saying you know what you will vote on is impossible - you only know what you would vote on things were they suspect. In any case, the point of suspect testing is not solely to promote an enjoyable metagame. Arguably more important are balance and diversity.

......
isnt that what suspect testing is for?
to actually see and decide what is broken
not just blindly assume that things are

As Alphatron said, in Randorosu's and Dory's case their possible brokenness stems from SS, which has a large issue in Rain currently in the metagame. This is what I mean by not currently broken - they have a huge checking teamstyle able to give them big problems.

 

[voodoo pimp]

Rankurusu utterly rapes my team if they take out Erufuun first, every time (unless they do something stupid). I still don't think it should be banned. It's good, but it's no more ban-worthy than, say, Scizor last gen.

 

[Ulevo]

Whats the big deal about banning abilities on just a certain pokemon anyway? It's not like there's a law stopping us from doing so. If it helps make a more desirable metagame why not do it? I just don't understand the controversy.
I got my rating, i earned my rating, and im going to vote for what i want regardless of what you guys argue about here. Im pretty sure everyone with voting rights knows what their going to vote against already. I'm going to vote for what i think will make a more fun metagame. I think too many people forget that this is for fun.

The problem with banning for fun is that everyone has different interpretations on what fun happens to be.

I dislike fighting Rankurusu, Burungeru, Zuruzukin, and Breloom. I don't particularly find having to face them fun. I don't base my judgement on that premise, because if I did (and everyone else had equal privilege in doing so) we'd wind up with a clusterfuck.

You have to learn to take the good with the bad. That's how we evolve as a community, and as players. We're living in a metagame right now where people ban what they can't accept, because they've been given the power to do so.

 

[SJCrew]

Hey, I'd just like to point out to the people nominating Latios that he does have a way to get past Blissey without relying on Trick. Specs Psycho Shock always 2HKOs a maxed out Blissey. It's also pretty good for revenge killing if you want to be less prone to being set up on. I usually didn't run Trick simply because Psycho Shock was the better Blissey-killer and I'd never forsee a situation in which switching moves would be any better than just spamming boosted attacks.

 

[TheValkyries]

I tried arguing this point to everyone here, only to be largely ignored. I tried to make a thread about it to call attention to the problem. Again, largely ignored. And here we are, facing the very problem I knew was going to happen.

Within the first three pages of the Suspect thread, there has been twenty different nominations; eight of them being for abilities or an ability combination. Of the twenty, fifteen of them are related to weather, with seven of the eight ability nominations being for various weather abilities or a combination of weather abilities. And every nomination for a Pokémon with a description that pertains to weather has the option to run one of those seven nominated abilities.

So, what does that mean? It means we have no idea what we're even doing anymore. Something has to be done about how we nominate and ban abilities, because it should carry a little more weight than just nominating and voting as if it were a Pokémon. The impact of an ability ban is considerably larger than banning a single Pokémon. Banning Kingdra, Ludicolo and Kabutops is only three Pokémon, but banning Swift Swim as a whole would take away from eighteen Pokémon. Banning Politoed or Drizzle ruins the viability of an entire strategy that employs a possible twenty-five Pokémon, more than twice the size of the size of the current nomination list for Pokémon alone. Bans like that should carry a little more gravity when being called into consideration, than a ban for a single Pokémon.

I mean, people are nominating Drought simply because they think it'll be the next broken thing, without having any experience in game with it. A ban of Drought would directly affect the viability of twenty-nine Pokémon, and they want to ban it simply because they think it'll be broken? The worst part is that kind of logic is being exemplified in badged members. I mean, holy shit, have we given up on rational thought here? Have we honestly just given up because we don't like the idea of having to undergo the arduous task of actually even attempting to try and balance weather?

We've gone far beyond the main complaint of the Rain Trio, and are in the area of preemptively banning things that little to no one has used, for reasons that are completely unfounded. A quick glance at the nominations thread sees plenty of talk for bringing Deoxys-N as it was banned simply because it looked like Deoxys-A in stats, and not because anyone actually played with it. How does this differ from banning Drizzle with the assumption that just because the Trio seem broken, the rest of Swift Swim is as well under rain. Does no one else see how much easier this process could be if instead of trying to oversimplify a problem larger than one Pokémon into one, single ban, we instead took the time and effort to ban the Pokémon individually and not have to worry about bringing things back down later on? Or how completely neutering half of the current meta-game to solve a problem based around a select handful of Pokémon isn't healthy at all, giving us a more imbalanced meta-game to work with next round?

Whichever way these bans go this round, one thing is certain: We need to make a policy towards banning abilities more defined than it is now. We need some kind of check on the power to ban abilities, because as it is, it is far too powerful and freely available as an option, and without the limitations on its use, it can not only over ban a multitude of Pokémon, but it could also lead to votes that are split because of a community's indecision on which to ban; the ability, or the Pokémon. This is an issue that can't wait any longer, as it has muddled this round, and will certainly muddle future rounds if no further clarification is provided.

 

[Homeslice]

I just wanted to have some input on the whole weather debate, you guys don't need to ban drizzle or sand stream. There's already a metagame on po called no weather. Instead of us banning everything, just ask whoever runs the smogon server to add the no weather tier, and play that instead. You guys are trying to make 5th gen too close to 4th gen, and they are very much different. This was kind of too late, but an input is better than no input.

 

[voodoo pimp]

Either no weather is the standard tier, in which case it's no different from banning the weather abilities, or no weather isn't the standard tier, in which case it doesn't solve the problem of weather in the standard. Either way, I fail to see how that helps.

 

[Lamppost]

So, what does that mean? It means we have no idea what we're even doing anymore.

I just quoted this because it pissed me off.
Anyways, i really don't think you ladder or play that much. You would obviously be in favor of banning this shit if you did. Nobody wants to see drizzle/sand in every game, it's boring. Thats also limiting the amount of viable pokemon you can use, have you noticed (probably not since i made the assumption that you don't ladder) that there is the same 10-20 pokemon used in just about every match? That doesn't make for a very fun metagame. With drizzle out we could see a lot more diversity with the metagame as a whole. Who cares if we ban drizzle? who cares if it fucks up the swift swimmers? Rain is essentailly fucking up the metagame making it less diverse.

 

[TheValkyries]

words

Arrogant of you to assume that I didn't ladder just because I think banning things that don't require a ban, and will never require a ban for generations to come, is excessive. I have noticed that there is the same twenty Pokémon, and the reason is there is so much centralization right now to the broken parts of Rain. Problem is, not all of Rain is broken, and it's completely unfair to completely destroy the meta-game for convenience, so as not to go through the effort of actually attempting to find the level at which weather is balanced, where it doesn't over centralize.

Can you not see how a balanced Drizzle would bring more diversity into a meta-game as opposed to one that has a complete ban on Drizzle? I'd tend to think that the benefits of keeping a play style alive in an already unstable meta should be fairly obvious.

 

[NC]

I mean, people are nominating Drought simply because they think it'll be the next broken thing, without having any experience in game with it. A ban of Drought would directly affect the viability of twenty-nine Pokémon, and they want to ban it simply because they think it'll be broken? The worst part is that kind of logic is being exemplified in badged members. I mean, holy shit, have we given up on rational thought here? Have we honestly just given up because we don't like the idea of having to undergo the arduous task of actually even attempting to try and balance weather?

We've gone far beyond the main complaint of the Rain Trio, and are in the area of preemptively banning things that little to no one has used, for reasons that are completely unfounded. A quick glance at the nominations thread sees plenty of talk for bringing Deoxys-N as it was banned simply because it looked like Deoxys-A in stats, and not because anyone actually played with it. How does this differ from banning Drizzle with the assumption that just because the Trio seem broken, the rest of Swift Swim is as well under rain. Does no one else see how much easier this process could be if instead of trying to oversimplify a problem larger than one Pokémon into one, single ban, we instead took the time and effort to ban the Pokémon individually and not have to worry about bringing things back down later on? Or how completely neutering half of the current meta-game to solve a problem based around a select handful of Pokémon isn't healthy at all, giving us a more imbalanced meta-game to work with next round?

I agree with you here, this has been incredibly disappointing. It started with the completely untested double team and one-hit-KO bans*, which have set a terrible precedent that continued with deoxys-n and it starting to creep over to drought, among other things this test.

Also, another thing to note is that drastic bans will completely change the metagame, so much so that it is likely to render all previous suspect tests useless. I think there needs to be some sort of policy change to prevent (or at least making it very difficult) these drastic changes from happening, or else the metagame will end up having bits and pits of what some people personally want but will be a constantly changing, unstable mess overall. I personally do not have any solution in mind, but I think the current system will not work in the long run.

*I don't want to turn this into a double team/ohko argument but there are hundreds of currently allowed pokemon/moves/items that "rely on luck," just as much as those two types of moves. Think about paralysis for instance. At least inconsistent was properly tested and determined to be too much based of off people actually using or playing against it.

 

[Disposable Puppets]

I just want to preface this by saying that I'm by no means an expert player, so my opinion might not matter to some people as much as a more skilled player, but I'm starting to come to the general opinion that Smogon is becoming too ban-happy. Instead of trying to deal with the threat at hand, many people just want to have the threat removed entirely. This goes back to the days Salamence was banned.

I can understand Darkrai, Shaymin-S and Deoxys-A because those three were clearly overpowered. However this next crop of suspects (with the exceptions of possibly Manaphy and Latios) aren't (at least in my experiences) overpowering at all. Excadrill's only threatening attack is earthquake, the other attacks don't hit hard enough and with balloon, it doesn't hit hard enough without a boost. Landorus is relatively slow until it sets up, leaving it exposed to faster threats. Terakion has many weaknesses (including fighting and steel, two common types associated with priority) to exploit. Reuniclus, while very good, can't carry calm mind, recover, psycho shock, trick room, shadow ball, and focus blast all at once. Each individual set is perfectly counterable once you find out what it's not carrying. I've even seen someone nominate Ferrothorn and his reason was "let's make a statement that we can ban defensive threats too".

People just don't want to work around threats anymore. I saw one user say "I'm not running Bronzong just to counter Landorus", ignoring the fact that Bronzong has many other uses besides just countering Landorus. My response to this is don't bitch about a pokemon if you refuse to use its checks. Bronzong is perfectly able to counter both Excadrill and Landorus but people don't want to use him? Then don't bitch when these two pokemon sweep you. This is just one example of people just refusing to adapt their team to the metagame.

It's the same way with weather. I've seen someone claim numerous times that its IMPOSSIBLE to beat a rain team with a non-rain team without using a weather inducer of their own. This just isn't true, it's just another instance of people not wanting to change their team to accomodate theses threats.

Kingdra is walled by Ferrothorn. You're telling me you can't fit a Ferrothorn on your team considering all the purposes it serves? Jellicent and Vaporeon can stall out Kingdra's Draco Meteors and recover their hp. Ludicolo and Kabutops can't do shit to CM Virizion or CM Latias but people bitch and moan that they're uncounterable just because they can't stop them with every single pokemon they want to.

Another thing is that I've seen people say that using a slot for a weather move of their own is too gimmicky. I say bullshit and that it's akin to using Rapid Spin to get rid of entry hazards. If entry hazards are bothering you, using rapid spin. If you don't want to lose to weather, why is it so difficult to stick sandstorm or hail or sunny day or rain dance on a pokemon just to fuck up their weather?

One last comment. I've seen people saying that the person who's weather is standing last usually wins. Is this necessarily a bad thing? I don't see anything wrong with protecting your weather inducer, weather is part of your strategy so you should try and keep it alive no? It just seems like a resistant to change to me. I am of the belief that Gamefreak intentionally released Drought and Drizzle to try and promote weather more. So I don't see anything wrong with a more weather-central metagame. But that is just me.

I am of the belief that rain is necessary. Rain and Sand (and to a lesser extent Sun and to an ever lesser extent Hail) are both very powerful forces that balance each other out. If you remove rain, sand will dominate. I think that a co-existing rain and sand metagame is better than a metagame where sand runs wild. But that's just my opinion, I just don't have a problem with weather being a prime focus of the game.

Maybe this is just me venting a little, but this is what I believe. The checks are there so use them. Otherwise don't complain if you can't handle the threats.

I am certain this post will be seen as ridiculus and uninformed, but I'm just sharing my opinion. It may not be as well thought out as I'd have liked, but I'm not very good at expressing myself sometimes.

 

[masterful]

I agree with you here, this has been incredibly disappointing. It started with the completely untested double team and one-hit-KO bans*, which have set a terrible precedent that continued with deoxys-n and it starting to creep over to drought, among other things this test.

Also, another thing to note is that drastic bans will completely change the metagame, so much so that it is likely to render all previous suspect tests useless. I think there needs to be some sort of policy change to prevent (or at least making it very difficult) these drastic changes from happening, or else the metagame will end up having bits and pits of what some people personally want but will be a constantly changing, unstable mess overall. I personally do not have any solution in mind, but I think the current system will not work in the long run.

*I don't want to turn this into a double team/ohko argument but there are hundreds of currently allowed pokemon/moves/items that "rely on luck," just as much as those two types of moves. Think about paralysis for instance. At least inconsistent was properly tested and determined to be too much based of off people actually using or playing against it.

Are you legit saying Evasion and OHKO clauses were MISTAKES!?! Are you high? Honestly, why in the hell would anyone want to play in a meta when someone can 6-0 sweep because he hit fissure every time with scarf Rapidash?(Scarfrachi and Para don't come close to that) Also, if you actually ever played on the Po server, where Deo-N wasn't banned in DW, you would realize that, oh wait it has 150/150/150 attacking stats! There is absolutely no excuse for not understanding the banworthiness of that. Also, this system has been implemented in UU for years, and has proved very reliable for creating a balanced, yet varied and enjoyable meta to play in. Look at the evidence, and please attempt to retort logically, not just out of your ass like most of the responses I find on this thread

 

[Bologo]

I just quoted this because it pissed me off.
Anyways, i really don't think you ladder or play that much. You would obviously be in favor of banning this shit if you did. Nobody wants to see drizzle/sand in every game, it's boring. Thats also limiting the amount of viable pokemon you can use, have you noticed (probably not since i made the assumption that you don't ladder) that there is the same 10-20 pokemon used in just about every match? That doesn't make for a very fun metagame. With drizzle out we could see a lot more diversity with the metagame as a whole. Who cares if we ban drizzle? who cares if it fucks up the swift swimmers? Rain is essentailly fucking up the metagame making it less diverse.

10-20 pokemon isn't bad, in fact, that's the true OU. Gen 4 had an OU of about 50 pokemon, but anyone who actually played can tell that a majority of the pokemon in OU weren't actually overused.

Also, lol just because someone has a different opinion than you it means they didn't ladder? Wow. Ever think that maybe some people don't like banning things when they feel it's not necessary?

Maybe instead of complaining about overcentralization, try out new strategies which might bring some light to the metagame? Obi was able to bring a new strategy of Stall in the heavily offensive Gen 4 by using stuff like Tentacruel for Toxic Spikes. If it weren't for that, Tentacruel probably wouldn't have ever been discovered (or at least would have taken much longer to be). There's always new strategies to try. If everyone feels like using the same thing, they can go ahead, but just because they're doing it, it doesn't mean you have to. If you think the metagame isn't diverse, then take advantage of that and run something that can kill the metagame. Eventually your strategy will be discovered and people will start using that, and as a result, the game will have gotten a new strategy developed, thereby increasing the diversity bit by bit.


For example, I've been running a strategy with Kirikizan which can wreck a lot of things in the metagame, including entire Rain teams.

My set is:

Kirikizan @Dread Plate
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Competitive Spirit

- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Brick Break

Basically, this is Absol on steroids with armor slapped on his back. If you can set up a Sub and a Swords Dance, it's often pretty easy to take out the opposing team. Just try to get rid of Gliscor, Skarmory, Gengar, and Hippowdon before you try sweeping with it.

If you're wondering how it destroys entire Rain teams, just do the following to get Kirikizan to fuck up the opposing Rain team:

1) Lure out Nattorei. It's very rare that an opposing team won't have one. I personally use my OTR Bronzong to lure it out and then put it to sleep. (Nattorei won't switch out against it, because its teammates don't feel so hot when they're taking Gyro Ball, even the members that resist it.)

2) Bring Kirikizan in and set up a Substitute. Nattorei cannot break your Subs with any of its attacks, and Kirikizan can't be Leech Seeded if he has a Sub up.

3a) Set up Swords Dances in Nattorei's face. If your Sub breaks, set another one up.

3b) If Nattorei switches out, you'll still have a Swords Dance while it switches ideally. If you only got a Sub up, then Swords Dance as the opposing teammate attacks you. If they got any bright ideas to set up something like SD in your face, you'll not only have a Sub up, but also a SD.

4) Start killing things with Brick Break and Sucker Punch. If you think you can set up another SD safely, then do it. Be careful against Politoed, Kabutops, and Kingdra. If Politoed is a supporting type, kill it with Brick Break. If Kabutops has Aqua Jet, Sucker Punch will fail against it so also kill it with Brick Break. You can also predict against Kabutops and possibly score a free Sub if he tries SDing. Against Kingdra, just be careful if it's a SubDD variant. It requires a bit of prediction, but if you Brick Break at the correct times, Kingdra will die.

5) Applaud your power ranger for once again saving the world from the evil Politoed and his evil minions.

This is what I've seen as a pretty effective strategy for Kirikizan to destroy a Rain team from lots of experimentation with him.

--

Now, no one would expect this thing to be used at all in Standard play. Even less people would expect to get swept by it. However, the reality of the matter is that they do, and it's an effective strategy which can be used in the metagame. Maybe it'll be used more, maybe it won't. However, this is encouraging diversity in the game by trying out new strategies. If this strategy catches on, the game will decentralize very slightly, since a pokemon that wasn't used much in standard would become more used. I emphasize that one new strategy probably won't completely decentralize the game, but when several new strategies get discovered, especially in an infant metagame like this one, they add up, and all contribute to the diversity.

 

[Blalu]

@Disposable Puppets: I agree with you. As soon as I saw people nominating Reuniclus, I knew the people around here where getting lazy! Reuniclus is a very good Pokemon but it's no where near broken. I can name 5 counters right off the top of my head.
1. Spiritomb
2. Scizor
3. Mandibuzz(Phase)
4. Sableye
5. Escavalier
6. Shedinja for those calm minders that don't carry shadow ball.
7. Jirachi(thunder wave and flinch)
8. MH Pokemon with encore
9. Psych up Girafarig(I tried this and it works then I baton pass)
10. Calm mind Slowbro may be able to take on trick room sets

Ok the first 5 I randomly taught in my head. The other 5 I researched. Plus if Magic guard is such a problem then why don't you all ban it like swift swim or drizzle, etc. It's ok to ban abilities.

 

[shrang]

10-20 pokemon isn't bad, in fact, that's the true OU. Gen 4 had an OU of about 50 pokemon, but anyone who actually played can tell that a majority of the pokemon in OU weren't actually overused.

Also, lol just because someone has a different opinion than you it means they didn't ladder? Wow. Ever think that maybe some people don't like banning things when they feel it's not necessary?

Maybe instead of complaining about overcentralization, try out new strategies which might bring some light to the metagame? Obi was able to bring a new strategy of Stall in the heavily offensive Gen 4 by using stuff like Tentacruel for Toxic Spikes. If it weren't for that, Tentacruel probably wouldn't have ever been discovered (or at least would have taken much longer to be). There's always new strategies to try. If everyone feels like using the same thing, they can go ahead, but just because they're doing it, it doesn't mean you have to. If you think the metagame isn't diverse, then take advantage of that and run something that can kill the metagame. Eventually your strategy will be discovered and people will start using that, and as a result, the game will have gotten a new strategy developed, thereby increasing the diversity bit by bit.


For example, I've been running a strategy with Kirikizan which can wreck a lot of things in the metagame, including entire Rain teams.

My set is:

Kirikizan @Dread Plate
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Competitive Spirit

- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Brick Break

Basically, this is Absol on steroids with armor slapped on his back. If you can set up a Sub and a Swords Dance, it's often pretty easy to take out the opposing team. Just try to get rid of Gliscor, Skarmory, Gengar, and Hippowdon before you try sweeping with it.

If you're wondering how it destroys entire Rain teams, just do the following to get Kirikizan to fuck up the opposing Rain team:

1) Lure out Nattorei. It's very rare that an opposing team won't have one. I personally use my OTR Bronzong to lure it out and then put it to sleep. (Nattorei won't switch out against it, because its teammates don't feel so hot when they're taking Gyro Ball, even the members that resist it.)

2) Bring Kirikizan in and set up a Substitute. Nattorei cannot break your Subs with any of its attacks, and Kirikizan can't be Leech Seeded if he has a Sub up.

3a) Set up Swords Dances in Nattorei's face. If your Sub breaks, set another one up.

3b) If Nattorei switches out, you'll still have a Swords Dance while it switches ideally. If you only got a Sub up, then Swords Dance as the opposing teammate attacks you. If they got any bright ideas to set up something like SD in your face, you'll not only have a Sub up, but also a SD.

4) Start killing things with Brick Break and Sucker Punch. If you think you can set up another SD safely, then do it. Be careful against Politoed, Kabutops, and Kingdra. If Politoed is a supporting type, kill it with Brick Break. If Kabutops has Aqua Jet, Sucker Punch will fail against it so also kill it with Brick Break. You can also predict against Kabutops and possibly score a free Sub if he tries SDing. Against Kingdra, just be careful if it's a SubDD variant. It requires a bit of prediction, but if you Brick Break at the correct times, Kingdra will die.

5) Applaud your power ranger for once again saving the world from the evil Politoed and his evil minions.

This is what I've seen as a pretty effective strategy for Kirikizan to destroy a Rain team from lots of experimentation with him.

--

Now, no one would expect this thing to be used at all in Standard play. Even less people would expect to get swept by it. However, the reality of the matter is that they do, and it's an effective strategy which can be used in the metagame. Maybe it'll be used more, maybe it won't. However, this is encouraging diversity in the game by trying out new strategies. If this strategy catches on, the game will decentralize very slightly, since a pokemon that wasn't used much in standard would become more used. I emphasize that one new strategy probably won't completely decentralize the game, but when several new strategies get discovered, especially in an infant metagame like this one, they add up, and all contribute to the diversity.

I was using Kirikizan on my first Rain team, yo, except I used Night Slash and LO instead of Sub.

 

[NC]

@Disposable Puppet- I agree 100%

Are you legit saying Evasion and OHKO clauses were MISTAKES!?! Are you high? Honestly, why in the hell would anyone want to play in a meta when someone can 6-0 sweep because he hit fissure every time with scarf Rapidash?(Scarfrachi and Para don't come close to that) Also, if you actually ever played on the Po server, where Deo-N wasn't banned in DW, you would realize that, oh wait it has 150/150/150 attacking stats! There is absolutely no excuse for not understanding the banworthiness of that. Also, this system has been implemented in UU for years, and has proved very reliable for creating a balanced, yet varied and enjoyable meta to play in. Look at the evidence, and please attempt to retort logically, not just out of your ass like most of the responses I find on this thread

Ignoring the completely unnecessary personal attacks and wild over-exaggerations, you are doing the exact thing that is the problem here. Yes, it is possible that all those things mentioned could be determined to be broken. However, it is irresponsible to simply ban them without testing (deoxys was not properly tested as shown by the multiple nominations to bring it back), as they are absolutely a part of the game. As for the system, are you suggesting that the metagame will not be drastically different as a result of a weather ban? If you think it will be, the entire first test will have been a waste of time as different things could be broken or unbroken in a different environment. That is incredibly inefficient and a major flaw. Also, when it is supposed to stabilize? Something will always be a major threat and the way things are going, the newest major threat will just end up banned.

Also, unrelated to the main point, but the one thing paralysis, flinchhax jirachi and fissure rapidash have in common is that their chances of sweeping an entire team are beyond miniscule. Fissure has a .000729 chance of hitting 6 times in a row and that's assuming the opponent has nothing with sturdy, nothing fast that can attack, and no ground resists, which are ridiculous assumptions.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

I just want to preface this by saying that I'm by no means an expert player, so my opinion might not matter to some people as much as a more skilled player, but I'm starting to come to the general opinion that Smogon is becoming too ban-happy.

Users that nominate =/= users that vote. Just because some users want to ban a pokemon doesn't make an entire community "ban-happy." If you take a look at the nominations thread, hardly any users that passed the voting mark are nominating Rankurusu, or any of the other pokemon that you mentioned as being "ridiculous."

 

[PlainN]

I just want to preface this by saying that I'm by no means an expert player, so my opinion might not matter to some people as much as a more skilled player, but I'm starting to come to the general opinion that Smogon is becoming too ban-happy. Instead of trying to deal with the threat at hand, many people just want to have the threat removed entirely. This goes back to the days Salamence was banned.

I can understand Darkrai, Shaymin-S and Deoxys-A because those three were clearly overpowered. However this next crop of suspects (with the exceptions of possibly Manaphy and Latios) aren't (at least in my experiences) overpowering at all. Excadrill's only threatening attack is earthquake, the other attacks don't hit hard enough and with balloon, it doesn't hit hard enough without a boost. Landorus is relatively slow until it sets up, leaving it exposed to faster threats. Terakion has many weaknesses (including fighting and steel, two common types associated with priority) to exploit. Reuniclus, while very good, can't carry calm mind, recover, psycho shock, trick room, shadow ball, and focus blast all at once. Each individual set is perfectly counterable once you find out what it's not carrying. I've even seen someone nominate Ferrothorn and his reason was "let's make a statement that we can ban defensive threats too".

People just don't want to work around threats anymore. I saw one user say "I'm not running Bronzong just to counter Landorus", ignoring the fact that Bronzong has many other uses besides just countering Landorus. My response to this is don't bitch about a pokemon if you refuse to use its checks. Bronzong is perfectly able to counter both Excadrill and Landorus but people don't want to use him? Then don't bitch when these two pokemon sweep you. This is just one example of people just refusing to adapt their team to the metagame.

It's the same way with weather. I've seen someone claim numerous times that its IMPOSSIBLE to beat a rain team with a non-rain team without using a weather inducer of their own. This just isn't true, it's just another instance of people not wanting to change their team to accomodate theses threats.

Kingdra is walled by Ferrothorn. You're telling me you can't fit a Ferrothorn on your team considering all the purposes it serves? Jellicent and Vaporeon can stall out Kingdra's Draco Meteors and recover their hp. Ludicolo and Kabutops can't do shit to CM Virizion or CM Latias but people bitch and moan that they're uncounterable just because they can't stop them with every single pokemon they want to.

Another thing is that I've seen people say that using a slot for a weather move of their own is too gimmicky. I say bullshit and that it's akin to using Rapid Spin to get rid of entry hazards. If entry hazards are bothering you, using rapid spin. If you don't want to lose to weather, why is it so difficult to stick sandstorm or hail or sunny day or rain dance on a pokemon just to fuck up their weather?

One last comment. I've seen people saying that the person who's weather is standing last usually wins. Is this necessarily a bad thing? I don't see anything wrong with protecting your weather inducer, weather is part of your strategy so you should try and keep it alive no? It just seems like a resistant to change to me. I am of the belief that Gamefreak intentionally released Drought and Drizzle to try and promote weather more. So I don't see anything wrong with a more weather-central metagame. But that is just me.

I am of the belief that rain is necessary. Rain and Sand (and to a lesser extent Sun and to an ever lesser extent Hail) are both very powerful forces that balance each other out. If you remove rain, sand will dominate. I think that a co-existing rain and sand metagame is better than a metagame where sand runs wild. But that's just my opinion, I just don't have a problem with weather being a prime focus of the game.

Maybe this is just me venting a little, but this is what I believe. The checks are there so use them. Otherwise don't complain if you can't handle the threats.

I am certain this post will be seen as ridiculus and uninformed, but I'm just sharing my opinion. It may not be as well thought out as I'd have liked, but I'm not very good at expressing myself sometimes.

I'm in absolutely, complete agreement with everything you said. The long list of suspect nominations suggest that people are treating it as an easy way out of their biggest headaches. There is no sense of "hey, that's a problem, let me think of possible tweaks to my team that would fix it and keep trying until I get it right". Instead, it's "I'll think five minutes on this and if the solution does not fit my personal preferences, then I want the problem banned". I think that sense of triumph through creativity and experimentation is lost.

Granted, a well built and well played weather team is extraordinarily hard to beat. Yet, they have one weakness: they need a permanent weather inducer; that's 1/6 of their entire team. With the exception of Tyranitar and maybe Hippowdon, the external utility from those inducers are limited, although by no means absent. To harass if not counter weather teams, you only need to run one weather inducing move on one member of your team; a fair trade-off in my opinion. Lest we forget, after the weather has been changed, it will stay that way or become "clear" after 5 turns unless another weather move is used or a permanent weather inducer re-enters the battlefield. If your opponent's weather inducer is dead for any reason, then you have just turned an innate disadvantage into a slight advantage. How you get off that initial Sunny Day or Hail is all up to what fits your team. Perhaps you'll use a bulky Pokemon that can take a hit from the hopelessly fast swift-swim/sand-rush pokes or perhaps you'll use priority (with Erufuun). As a personal example, I'm actually using a Heatran that can set up the sun on Politoed itself or one of the slower steels that most rain teams carry. It's by no means the most effective option and more tweaking will need to be done, but I've caused at least more than one rage-quit just by using this ad-hoc set.

Permanent weather is a good thing for the metagame. It opens a tremendous number of possibilities. Game Freaks wouldn't have given us Drizzle or Drought on former UU/NU Pokemon if they didn't want more weather. This is not an overpowered pokemon or a luck-based phenomenon, this is an entire playstyle and if you neuter it with bans, then the metagame will be less, not more diverse.

 

[Disposable Puppets]

They might not, but that didn't prevent them from handing out Kyogre and Groudon's signature abilities to lesser known pokemon in an attempt to make weather other than sandstorm and hail more widespread. They obviously wanted to create more weather diversity than just having sand and hail present and they gave drought and drizzle to us on some pretty average at best pokemon, obviously aware of all the advantages that rain and sun have over sand and hail in terms of abusers.

 

[Pocket]

The fact that people are nominating Drought / Drizzle / even Sandstream as suspects unnerved me enough to write a suggestion thread on the issue on weather abusers:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85113

I am not saying that people will agree with the specific solution I proposed, but I do feel the urge to be more analytical and study individual weather aspects piece by piece.

For instance with my proposal, I suggest to first ban Swift Swim, not because I think the ability itself is what breaks rain, but as part of a process to dissect the issue.

If Drizzle w/o Swift Swim is NOT overcentralizing, then we know that other effects of Rain that people bring up to support the ban on Drizzle (ie. Double STAB on Water, 100% accurate Thunder / Hurricane, weakening of fire moves, Dry Skin) are a non-issue.

Then we can focus more on the Swift Swimmers aspect of Rain. Remove the ban on Swift Swim and just ban the trio (Kingdra / Kabutops / Ludicolo), and see how the Rain Heavy Offense shapes up. If additional Swift Swimmers (ie Gorebyss) ends up breaking OU, then we can determine that the problem lies more on the ability Swift Swim rather than individual Pokemon. In that scenario, we could bring back down the trio and either blanket ban Swift Swim or try out Aldaron's "complex" ban on Drizzle + Swift Swim on the same team.

 

[Benlisted]

I'd encourage people to read the above link - it is a balanced proposal for weather testing that will result in us ascertaining what exactly is broken in such a complex aspect of the game as rain and it being dealt with appropriately. Pretty much without doubt it will result in a much more precise determination of what is broken and its banning accordingly. The main downside is time involved, but with suspect testing likely to continue with some time I don't think this is too much of an issue.

 

[Jonathan]

lol does everyone remember how, when Reuniclus' stats were leaked in an issue of CoroCoro last summer, everyone was worried it would end up in NU?

Seriously though, Reuniclus is a very good Pokemon but nowhere near broken. Jirachi is another common OU Pokemon that shits all over him (+1 Focus Blast 2HKOs, but between the 70% accuracy and the 60% flinch rate of Iron Head and Leftovers on Jirachi, you're going to come out on top). Parasect also counters this guy cold assuming you haven't already put something to sleep (and he works pretty well in Trick Room also so that's an added bonus). You switch in on any attack in the CM set and sleep it, or you switch in on TR, take a hit, and Sleep it. Then Sub / X-Scissor away. Too bad Parasect will become a lot less useful if rain gets banned this round.

 

[Raikaria]

People really need to stop attempting to presevre Drizzle.

1: Drizzle is already a suspect automatically. And it only needs more than 50% to be banned. This almost certainly seals it's fate anyway, looking at popular opinion.

2: Contemplateing a ban on Swift Swim, or a ban on both abilities together, is just desperation to keep Drizzle in the metagame. Even without Swift Swim, there's still Hydration. Oh wait, Manaphy's probobly gonna get banned too. So... that's removeing ANY REASON TO USE RAIN IN THE FIRST PLACE. You might as well Ban Drizzle, and allow Rain Dance teams to survive, at least :/ If Swift Swim is banned, it'll render Rain unuseable at all.

And no, Rain Stall is not viable. It's a gimmick, because Dry Skin pokemon counter Rain teams. Use Rain Stall against a Sand Team, Sun Team, or even a standard team, and watch it fail.

3: Contemplateing a ban on Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo is also desperation, especially since there could be more pokemon broken in the rain, such as Shell Break Gorybass. Banning 4 pokemon, minimum, to allow one ability to remain in the metagame, 3 of which are not in the least bit broken without this ability existing, is going too far to preseve Drizzle.


Anyway, I'm hoping that Landos and/or Dory gets banned. It'll save an uneeded round of Sand domination. Then, we'll just have to inevitably sort out Sun, which probobly would just need one ban, Venusaur. [Getting +2 in both attacking stats in one turn, a decent movepool, outspeeding everything, and being bulky, all at once is too much]

 

[TLK]

Lolling at someone suggesting we ban Magic Guard.

Rankurusu is "too strong", but lets ruin Clefable to allow it?

 

[SolCalibre]

I don't see how Reuiniclus is broken in any way. Many people underestimated it at the beginning but now the usage has grown immensely and because people didn't think of using him at the start , people don't know how to deal with him and then when their team gets Ranku/Reuni dented, it makes that person want to use him then the cycle continues thus increasing its usage.

He's strong but not overpowered or enough to be broken. Whoever thinks of banning him or the ability must have some serious team problems.
(Side note: At the moment Sigilyph/Shinpora is working for me atm.)