np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[astrohawke]

It only needs one of the two for different checks. Also, outplaying your opponent isn't hard; if he has a poke on the field which will be KOed by either HP fire or DM (i.e. Breloom), and you know from team preview Nattorei is the only poke able to switch in on a DM, going for the HP is a safe option, since it might cripple your main Latios check, allowing you to spam DM for the rest of the match.

You can't claim such and such isn't a check because I can see the future and predict you. You also can't claim that Latios is going to have HP fighting when going up against a team with TTar and HP fire when going up against a team with scizor.

Obviously if your opponent has breloom out and a nattorei as their only counter HP fire is a no brainer and you lose very little by using it. Except that's not going to happen most of the time. What's going to happen is that Latios will have come in on something like Garchomp to revenge/check it and you know they have a Nattorei. Now you're you're thinking am I going to HP fire the predicted Nattorei switch and risk garchomp killing me or will I just play it safe and use draco meteor knowing nattorei might come in.

Reuniclus doesn't destroy full stall because Spiritomb And the playstyle i'm talking about is rain/sun OFFENSE. It can't be too hard to understand.

If you play rain/sun HO with 6 sweepers then you have to accept that you will probably lose something if Latios gets in. But once it has killed something, then you send something else in that's going to kill it or force it out and you play to limit the opportunities it has to get back in. That's what HO is. You hit hard, you predict and make sure what threatens you never has a chance to get in scot free. You can't expect to play HO and still counter stuff.

So checking means revenging. That's what you're claiming. So Dorry checks 90% of the metagame in sand... I always thought a check needed to be able to switch in too. Apparently HP ice Chillachino checks Garchomp. Interesting.

Checking means stopping a pokemon from completely running over your team by either killing it or forcing it out. Yes most of the time it's revenge killing. Sometimes it just means forcing it out and making sure it has limited opportunities to get back in. When you play stall, you put counters to stop Latios cold. When you play HO, you put checks that will outspeed and kill it.

 

[Lee]

I've read the proposal. I know he stated it was an exception, but i just don't buy it. I think he portrayed it as an exception for simple-minded members to accept, but the underlying motive was to introduce complexity in our banning proccess.

Why would you believe that? A similar rule was used in GSC making it illegal to use a Legendary Pokemon with a Hidden Power (or something to that effect...I wasn't around at the time) and that didn't bubble over into increasingly complicated rules. It was just a simple modification that (presumably) saved us from outright banning a handful of Pokemon.

Same scenario here. History disagrees with you.

 

[TacoBot]

Never heard of that. You might be a mod, but please present proof about this obscure fact.

If people did that in Gen 2, why didn't they do it in Gen 3 for CMCune?

 

[Benlisted]

In regard to the assertion that Aldaron's proposal being accepted could set a precedent for other combination bans, I would say that it was made clear that weather as a whole is an entirely different beast than a simple pokemon or ability - it a combination of things resulting in a broken team. The only danger with his proposal was the precedent it may set, but it will only set said precedent if we allow it to by twisting its terms.

To whatever was said about DM Latios giving weather HO a ton of trouble, I would have to disagree. Not including Rain, which has altered to the degree that it is not possible to talk about as of yet, Sun certainly doesn't.

Sun HO is in itself somewhat of a myth, as Tales is so frail it requires quite a lot of support to survive, and its sweepers are not as powerful as Rain's, meaning again more support from hazards etc is needed. Undoubtedly, Sun Offense is threatened probably most by Heatran and Dragon types in terms of being walled outright, but this can be got around. As you gain experience with Sun, you learn how to beat these without altering the team detrimentally at all, although when first building a team they seem like insurmountable obstacles. A strong steel like Forretress can serve well to buffer Dragon attacks and provide general support, whilst Flash Fire mons can take a HP Fire, and Shiftry, Houndoom or again a Steel can eat Psychic hits. Shiftry and Houndoom force it out for fear of Sucker Punch, and the former can outspeed and KO anyway. Strong Normal or Poison hits are very useful to hit the Latis and other dragons neutrally for large damage. And although Latios' resists give it a lot of opportunity to come in, as an example of how it will only be able to do so a few times, the combo of Arcanine's CC then Extremespeed is a guaranteed OHKO to offensive variants with SR, beating it if it switches in.

Sun has a lot of solutions to Latios, it just has to play around it a little more carefully than other things.

 

[Lee]

prove it!

It seems as though there was a grey area surrounding it but from what I can gather, a lot of tournaments prohibited Hidden Power legendaries.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43527

 

[November Blue]

That's kind of ironic, coming from you.

Huh?

"Latios breaks OU"

This is my opinion. I think Latios's choice specs set is too much for standard play and a ban in this case would make the metagame healthier. Apparently 60% of players qualified to vote last round didn't agree with me, but i'm confident this is only because every single one of them had a dedicated counter in their team (Nattorei, Tyranitar, or both). Players who don't want to use sandstorm and defensive pokes must face the fact that their teams are Latios weak, and they'll have to lose a poke to boosted DM each time it switches in against something slower. If Latios didn't have DM though, it would be perfectly manageable; its choiced sets would be much less powerful, and it would have many more checks to limit its rampage (even Togekiss can check it without DM). By banning Latios, we make the metagame healthier. By banning the Latios+DM combo, we make the metagame healthier AND keep a much-needed check to Virizion and Garchomp around.

You need to realize that i am not against Latios being banned. Quite the opposite actually. This is merely a proposal to counter the main argument for him remaining in standard, that he's necessary to hold back some specific threats. I just want to portray this as a possible solution.

It's not latios' fault that he's a powerful dragon type sweeper. There are plenty of other pokes that will obliterate unprepared teams (weavile, serperior, nitro charge heatran, nasty plot ninetales.) The solution is to adapt to latios 1. because it needs to be countered/checked in order for your team to succeed and 2. because it's a prominent threat. If you refuse to carry answers to the top 3 offensive pokemon and expect to win, you're not in a position to justify an argument or ban, you're just lazy.

Also, the specs set is somewhat overshadowed by the scarfer, which is a much better choice in the current metagame IMO. My favourite set is scarf, timid, DM / HP fire / trick / roost. It's an extremely reliable revenge killer/check that outspeeds absolutely everything and can roost back it's health when causing switches, making it much more problematic.

I'm pretty sure that scarflatias can't OHKO scarfchomp with draco meteor either.

HP legendaries banned? Wow, things sure were diff'rent back then!

 

[TacoBot]

That ban stinks though, I don't think people want to use it as a precedent. It even has less reasons going for it than the current situation. The parallel is to ban Draco Meteor on every single Dragon because it's a rare move tutor move or some ridiculous crap like that.

EDIT: I mean, no one bothered using it in Gen 3.

 

[Lee]

My point still stands - it didn't set off some chain reaction of increasingly complicated rules like some users seem to think will happen with Aldaron's proposal.

 

[haunter]

Apparently i have to repeat myself countless times for you to understand.

Repeating yourself doesn't prove your points, if you can't adapt your team to a given threat, then that's your fault. I play offensive teams and specs Latios has never been such a problem, especially if you pack boosting sweepers like DD Gyarados or SD Luke\Scizor.

The same example i provided above applies here too. You wouldn't go for HP fire vs Nape, while you would do that against, say, Parasect. If the opponent expects a DM and switches in Nattorei, they've just lost their main Latios check. It's a win/win scenario really. You'll take out a poke regardless. The broken set is the specs one. Each of the pokes you provided except from Metagross can be 2hko'd by a particular move in that set, and they are they only pokes able to switch in on DM. So i'd hardly call them "safe switchins". Metagross, on the other hand, loses 60% from DM unless it's EVed in sDef. Yeah, it's THAT overpowered.

You talked about "prediction" and that's why I brought up the Infernape example. If the Latios user can be that smart to always guess the appropriate move to use ageinst your switch in, then fine, you're either playing a great\lucky battler or you're imagining an unrealistic scenario. All the Pokemon I mentioned can survive at least one hit from Latios, even if they come in on the wrong move, in that case you realize that it's the specs variant and act accordingly (i.e. you switch a water Pokemon on the second surf\hp fire, a ghost or flying Pokemon on the hp fighting and so on). Basically playing around specs Latios is pretty much like playing around many other choice users.

So checking means revenging. That's what you're claiming. So Dorry checks 90% of the metagame in sand... I always thought a check needed to be able to switch in too.

I've never claimed that. A check is a Pokemon that may be able to switch into a given threat in some situations (example: Roobushin can check Dory if it comes in on a predicted rock slide or x-scissor) but if you pretend your check to freely come in and force the opponent to switch, then you're no longer looking at a check, but at a counter. A revenge killer is a "tertium genus" as it's a Pokemon that's not capable of switching into a given threat most of the time, but it can come in after threat X has fainted Pokemon Y and eliminate\force out threat X (example: Weavile can't switch into any of Latios moves - barring psychic - but can ohko it with pursuit or ice punch after it faints something).

Apparently HP ice Chillachino checks Garchomp. Interesting.

No, not really. Chillachino may at best revenge kill it (assuming that hp ice coming from 229 SpA could actually revenge Chomp) as it's likely ohko'd by every move that Garchomp commonly carries. if you're looking for a Garchomp check, then you can look at Latias as it has decent defences and is immune or resistent to 2 out of 3 attacking moves that the standard SD Garchomp carries.

 

[JSND]

If you open the door to banning moves, you have to have a reason to justify not taking it further and using it to make all Pokemon allowed.

Yup downright. thats my reply to no DM latios.

ANyyyyyyywaaayyyy specs latios isnt that broken in term of power alone. Its the no safe switch in aspect that make him insane for me. DM filler Trick has no switch in and bliss risk tricked specs(she can utilize it but it give set up opportunity) although since most dont use HP fire Shubarugo work in some cases.

 

[astrohawke]

Yup downright. thats my reply to no DM latios.

ANyyyyyyywaaayyyy specs latios isnt that broken in term of power alone. Its the no safe switch in aspect that make him insane for me. DM filler Trick has no switch in and bliss risk tricked specs(she can utilize it but it give set up opportunity) although since most dont use HP fire Shubarugo work in some cases.

The no safe switch ins due to trick is a bad argument imo. Most things don't like getting tricked but it isn't really the end of the pokemon. Like if blissey gets tricked, it's still going to wall Latios all day and Latios just lost a lot of its power.

 

[alexwolf]

i have nowhere heard since the discussion about latios started anyone mentioning one of latios great checks:heatran!with max hp he can tank any attack heatran packs and even one surf if needed.he can also strike back hard with dragon pulse or set up sr,if latios is using a choiced set and is locked on a resisted move(meaning anything except surf),as it switches out
i am not telling whether or not he is broken but as it happens with all nominated pokes,people that are talking about latios make him have much less checks and counters than it has in the reality...
i see people here and there exaggerating about any nominated pokemon ability:reuniclus,doryuuzu,drizzle,latios etc...

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I never stated that, don't misinterpret my words. It's entire playstyles which cannot be performed including Ttar/Natt, such as sun and rain offense. A single pokemon which destroys two playstyles and opens big holes in all others is somehow not broken? HP fighting 2hkos Tyranitar and HP fire 2hkos Nattorei, so allow me to question these two pokes as "checks". After one hidden power has landed, both are at the point where a draco meteor will finish them off later, so switching out is not an option either. In short, Natt and Ttar are checks *only* if you can predict your opponent perfectly. Also, a check is supposed to be able to switch in, so Scizor is only a revenge-killer. And if the only way for me to beat Latios is to let it kill one of my pokes with DM and revenge it later, crippling my Scizor in the proccess too, and giving my opponent a free turn to do whatever the hell he wants against a CB Scizor locked in pursuit, then i might as well ragequit every time i see Latios in team preview.

Sucker Punch Victreebel says hi. Easy KO on both Latis.

 

[capefeather]

My personal tendency is not to come back to these threads after the testing period is over, but I'd just like to say that, despite all of the uncertainty that I displayed in PR, coming into this now I can confidently say that I would have voted for the Swift Drizzle ban. Why? Despite all this clamouring for "simplicity" (which I think that Aldaron was slightly unfair in criticizing, to be fair), Swift Drizzle is an almost perfect poster boy for something that I've mentioned all along: that technically, any modification to the ruleset should be considered if it's "enforceable" (no "level 78 or level 79 Groudon???" bs) and a good argument is made that it will solve problems that simple bans cannot. The latter is very, very rare, and we arguably just saw it. One could make the argument that we merely made the "easy" ban than the "right" ban... but really, we've been doing this all along by banning Pokémon almost exclusively rather than banning other stuff. We need to remind ourselves that we're trying to ban stuff to make the game "enjoyable", not engineering the game to make it "right", which is futile.

And no, I'm not saying this now just because Swift Drizzle got a supermajority. I figured that that would happen, anyway. This is how I really thought by the time the voting started. Take it or leave it.

 

[Hoenn]

Sorry if I'm a bit out of date with this, but was there a 'Is rain broken?' vote before the Aldaron's proposal vote?

 

[Ninja_13]

Sorry if I'm a bit out of date with this, but was there a 'Is rain broken?' vote before the Aldaron's proposal vote?

No; actually, it was the opposite, with Aldaron's proposal being voted on first so that if it was passed (like it was), we wouldn't have to waste time with a Drizzle vote. Aldaron's proposal is testing to see if Drizzle isn't broken without Swift Swim abusing it anyways.

 

[Raikaria]

i have nowhere heard since the discussion about latios started anyone mentioning one of latios great checks:heatran!with max hp he can tank any attack heatran packs and even one surf if needed.he can also strike back hard with dragon pulse or set up sr,if latios is using a choiced set and is locked on a resisted move(meaning anything except surf),as it switches out
i am not telling whether or not he is broken but as it happens with all nominated pokes,people that are talking about latios make him have much less checks and counters than it has in the reality...
i see people here and there exaggerating about any nominated pokemon ability:reuniclus,doryuuzu,drizzle,latios etc...

Heatran's been unviable in a metagame littered with Rain, Landos, and Dory, with the possible exception of Tormentran if it sets up.

Yeah... never thought I'd be saying THAT.

Heatran can tank a surf if need be, but he's lower than Latios, and sure can't tank two. Heatran isn't going to be OHKO'ing anyway. Heatran is FAR from a Latios check, and if it's Specs DM'ing everywhere, Heatran's not going to be switching in too many times.

Timid Specs Latios Draco Meteor v 252/252 Calm Heatran [Who runs THAT?]: 30.6% - 36%

Now let's use a more standard Heatran, SubTran:

Timid Specs Latios v Subtran [4 Sp.Def, 0 HP]: 50.2% - 59.4%

Heatran can only switch in once.

Heatran is NOT a counter, or even a half decent check.

Oh, and Surf: 91% - 107.7% That's a rock-assisted sure OHKO, and just under 50% for a OHKO without any hazards.

 

[Deco]

Heatran may not be a counter to Latios, but if you say it's unviable, you've never used it. I use Fire Blast Specs Heatran, which (with status support) utterly rapes and destroys almost any Sun team. Ninetales, Charizard and most other resistant Pokemon are easily 2HKO'd bij Fire Blast, so they can't switch in safely. Hell, it even 2HKO's standard Blissey. And it's still really strong out of sun, destroying key threats on the opponent's team like there's no tomorrow. In rain, it's not as good, but I believe it can still OHKO Ferrothorn... and something with a strong HP Ice and resistant to Outrage is always useful.

In fact, I'm glad Heatran can be countered/checked by a couple of common Pokemon. If that weren't the case, it would be pretty damn broken...

 

[alamaster]

Why would you believe that? A similar rule was used in GSC making it illegal to use a Legendary Pokemon with a Hidden Power (or something to that effect...I wasn't around at the time) and that didn't bubble over into increasingly complicated rules. It was just a simple modification that (presumably) saved us from outright banning a handful of Pokemon.

Same scenario here. History disagrees with you.

Wrong. The HP Legends ban was because it was nearly impossible to obtain a legend with the correct IVs to get a hidden power with the max base of 70. It was never thought to be broken in the sense that you mean. So no, there is no history with banning specific moves to keep pokemon from being broken.

Judging from the suspect voting, the majority of people believe that Latios is OU even with Draco Meteor, so I don't see a move ban coming into effect for that particular situation.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Hey, I was thinking today. I know that lugia has already been banned, but do you think that there's a chance that he could be re-tested?? I mean, does he really wall that much in OU??

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

1, No. 2, Yes.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Hey, I was thinking today. I know that lugia has already been banned, but do you think that there's a chance that he could be re-tested?? I mean, does he really wall that much in OU??

You gotta be kidding.
He walls most of the stuff in UBERS,what in the world would even make you consider him for a re-test?
Recover + Multi-scale + Speed and bulk?
That doesn't sound like OU.

 

[lmitchell0012]

1, No. 2, Yes.

I'd like a better explanation than just a two word answer.

@kefka-not to mention being weak to stealth rock.

 

[Thorhammer]

Hey, I was thinking today. I know that lugia has already been banned, but do you think that there's a chance that he could be re-tested?? I mean, does he really wall that much in OU??

Lugia has never been tested in OU. There was a significant movement saying that he should be tested in OU at the beginning of the generation, but it was ignored. An actual test for him would be nice...

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

I'd like a better explanation than just a two word answer.

@kefka-not to mention being weak to stealth rock.

So? Ho-oh is 4x weak to Stealth Rock and he could still wreck OU.
Do you even know how much bulk he has?