Banning is not done because something brings luck into the meta. I have said this before and will say it again, if something is not gamebreaking, it should not be banned. Sand Veil or Snow Cloak rarely decide matches, and only in highly specialized cases. This is the same with ScarfRachi, who can theoretically completely sweep teams, yet needs a great deal of luck to do so. With OHKO moves, things like Scarf Articuno have at the very least a 30% chance to take out at least 1/6 of the opponent's team with no prediction nor skill, that is too great a deal to allow. Something like Confuse Ray Sableye bring nothing to the meta but luck, but we will certainly not be banning it any time soon
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Evasion clause completely goes against this statement. Statistically speaking, Sand veil and Snow cloak are superior to double team in pretty much every way. And don't say you can't keep boosting up with the abilities, since it has been proven that using double team/minimize only once provides the most benefit in the long run, except when baton passing. If the abilities aren't broken, then double team isn't either.
And I support the banning of confuse ray, supersonic, swagger, dynamic punch, and attract. But they really aren't very important to ban though, they are pretty poor, even if they are just hax. Sand veil/snow cloak are much better.
So a 50% chance to fail any move is okay, but a 20% chance of missing an ATTACKING move is broken? Be consistent. Double Team is broken as you can spam it continuously. That is what makes minimize Blissey incredibly impossible to defeat. The evasion abilities create minor hax, and hax that is usually inconsequential.
The 50% chance is easily nullified by switching and requires the use of a turn to set up. The 20% chance requires no turn, only an autoweather user (not too hard for sand veil, abomasnow's not that bad for cloak), and can only be nullified by your own weather (if you're carrying one, and it is a different one).
And minimize blissey? LOL that's easy to beat. And as I said, it is best to only use evasion moves once. Using it more than once actually decreases the net gain in turns. The calculations are all in the old evasion clause thread.
They were made by petrie IIRC, I'm looking through the thread to see if I can find a single post where he posted the bulk of his calcs.
Regardless of your opinion, being able to boost to +4 or +6 evasion is gmaebreaking. With its distribution, too many pokes can take advantage of evasion boosts. Btw, great example you provided on how easy t is to kill Minimize Blissey. By simply stating my point was false you instantly managed to refute it beautifully. Could you possibly actually offer an example of how "easy" it is to beat boosting pokes?
How about you give examples about why its difficult so he actually has something to refute.
What's minimize blissey going to do to me? toxic? Steel type. Special attacks? my own blissey or a resist. Seismic toss? anything with a recovery move, or a ghost. PP stall me? maybe, but it's really only doing that to one pokemon.
The reason I laughed at minimize blissey is because blissey is not the kind of pokemon who abuses evasion very well. It may be hard to ohko, but it can't really take advantage of the fact that it can't be hit, and is forced to rely on toxic. The reason you use evasion is because it gives you free turns to get other boosts. CM Bliss isn't very good becuase then it either has no recovery or only one move.
These are some examples of what I would consider good evasion abusers:
Dragonite@lefties
252 atk/252 sp def/4 hp adamant (there's probably better ev sets, and you might want some speed if running dragon claw)
Multiscale
Double Team
Dragon Dance
Dragon Tail/Dragon Claw
Roost
Get an evasion boost and then start dding. multiscale prevents you from being ohko'd, and roost whenever you get hit until they miss. Dragon tail prevents counter-setup and phazing.
Umbreon@leftovers/mail/mental herb
252 HP/ 252 Def (sp def if curse)/ 4 sp def bold (calm)
Double team
Baton pass
Roar
Moonlight/wish/Curse/filler
One of the few cases where you would boost evasion more than one- bping. I doubt I really need to explain. Pass to a bulky booster.
Here's an example. No matter what move you try to do that affects the opponent, you only have a 33% of succeeding at +6, and at +4, you have a 43% chance. That means that accumulating boosts rapidly becomes very easy, and at +6, have fun hitting the opponent. This isn't a complex situation, this is simply factual evidence. There are no examples for how these pokes are hard to hit, just empirical data
They have to get to that point in the first place. to get to +6 takes either 3 or 6 turns, during which time they will have plenty of times to hit you. Only to be attempted by the most defensive of set-uppers, which typically can't do much back. If there's no phaze, they can easily set up so they only need one hit to ko you. And if they send out a phazer then they only need 1 hit in order for you to have to start all over again. (which is another benefit the abilities have over the moves).
Wait, where are you getting this 50% figure from? And since when did Veil and Cloak only work with attacking moves...?
Confusion/Attract/etc.
And I think he was referring to offensive moves. Boosting moves and whatnot don't care about the miss chance.
Hax and luck are both a part of Pokemon. Crits happen, moves miss, and 10% secondary effects activate. If you can't handle the fact that sometimes things won't work out perfectly, then maybe you shouldn't play pokemon.
The difference between Sand Veil/Snow Cloak and Double Team is that Veil/Cloak are bonuses. You don't depend on those abilities to win you games. On the other hand, People who use Double Team/Minimize explicitly depend on those moves to give their pokemon an edge over their opponent. When people start depending on luck and chance to win them games, then the attribute that enhances their luck should be banned. (See Inconsistent) No one depends on Sand Veil. Garchomp users depend on the 102 base speed, STAB Earthquake, and ability to Swords Dance to beat their opponent. On the other hand, Double Team Dragonite depends on the chance that their opponent to miss so that it could boost it's stats to sweep.
The difference between Sand Veil/Snow Cloak and Double Team is that Veil/Cloak are bonuses. You don't depend on those abilities to win you games. On the other hand, People who use Double Team/Minimize explicitly depend on those moves to give their pokemon an edge over their opponent. When people start depending on luck and chance to win them games, then the attribute that enhances their luck should be banned. (See Inconsistent) No one depends on Sand Veil. Garchomp users depend on the 102 base speed, STAB Earthquake, and ability to Swords Dance to beat their opponent. On the other hand, Double Team Dragonite depends on the chance that their opponent to miss so that it could boost it's stats to sweep.
Masterful is saying that Sand Veil hinders moves like Toxic and Surf, but doesn't affect Swords Dance. If your Pokemon is confused, there's a 50% chance even moves you use on yourself (Swords Dance) will fail.
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I agree that we ban chance moves like Evasion boosting and Inconsistent because they are broken, not haxy. Infuriating moves like attract are rarely used not because users hate them, but because they think they won't work well. When somebody uses attract on my Pokemon, I don't get angry just because they are haxing me, but because it is embarassing to be beaten by a move that competitive play shuns as noobish.
Confuse Ray, Sand Veil, and other "chance" moves are just as much strategy as luck. Am I willing to use a turn to give the foe a 50% chance to hit me for a while, or until he switches? What are the risks and rewards? There is no reason to ban something like that unless it breaks the metagame. I admittedly have never fought in a metagame that lacked the evasion clause, but if evasion was bad but haxy nobody would have used it anyway. Evasion turned out to be too good, so it was used, abused, and banned. I don't think Sand Veil falls into that category, and if it was banned, it would not be on account of it being a "chance" move.
I'm sorry, but when the hell did this happen? Last I checked, Evasion has never been allowed in 4th or 5th gen. The last time it was allowed was in 3rd gen, and I don't remember it being particularly broken then, either. But even if it was, we all know how similar the 3rd gen metagame is to the 5th gen one, and that surely anything broken in that metagame must necessarily be broken in this one.
You haven't fought in a metagame that lacked evasion clause? Well I'm guessing that applies to at least 90% of Smogon. And yet they still see fit to hand down a ban on something they have no experience with.
What you say here is somewhat inconsistent (no pun intended). Inconsistent was statistically proven not to be broken as such - to give a player such an advantage with random boosts that they would win all matches and climb the ladder. All Inconsistent did was put down to a die roll a strat that if it paid off was very infuriating and successful - but according to the stats it rarely should if countered appropriately. The reason inconsistent was banned in my eyes and several others is more to do with the fact that it was a largely luck based strategy that brought little to the metagame, and the same applies for OHKO and Evasion clauses. Statistically, they will not get you to the top of the ladder as they are based on statistically inferior chances, but when they do it is infuriating and not beneficial to the game, hence they were banned.
You can say that Inconsistent was a valid strategy - few people ran Haze/Clear Smog/always accurate moves so they could exploit it, just as much as a Cacturne running Sand Veil, Brightpowder and Sub is in order to force a miss and safely get in a SD. Neither breaks the meta, but Inconsistent doesn't bring anything to it and can get out of hand easily whereas Sand Veil is fixed. This fixed attribute is why I don't think Sand Veil needs banning - it is a flat rate with no way to increase it, whereas Double Team, Inconsistent etc can be used to boost evasion to very high levels. Not to say either should be banned, this is just how I see Sand Veil.
Garchomp@leftovers/brightpowder
252 atk/252speed/4 def jolly
Sand Veil
Outrage
Earthquake
Swords Dance
Substitute
Are you saying that this set doesn't use Sand veil in order to make the opponent miss set up more easily?
Dt Nite and SubChomp are on entirely different levels. But I'll admit that SubChomp relies on Sand Veil. But I don't see anyone complaining that SubChomp is broken. Most Veil QQing comes from Scarf Ice beams missing. If anything, that set just proves how different Veil is from Double Team.
I'll go out on a limb and claim that Yache/Haban berry Chomp is superior (opinion). Which basically means that depending on Veil is suboptimal.
The PO Dream World Tier didn't have an evasion ban and it sucked. ST Hitomoshi +Ranpuraa Memento into Double Team/Calm Mind/Shadow Ball/HP Fighting Shandera= almost unbeatable. Basically, evasion was broken.
I'll go out on a limb and claim that Yache/Haban berry Chomp is superior (opinion). Which basically means that depending on Veil is suboptimal.
The PO Dream World Tier didn't have an evasion ban and it sucked. ST Hitomoshi +Ranpuraa Memento into Double Team/Calm Mind/Shadow Ball/HP Fighting Shandera= almost unbeatable. Basically, evasion was broken.
I see what you're saying about bringing nothing to the metagame, which I suppose means not being statistically broken but making people not like playing as much. I guess I'm still living in the phase when I thought that usage stats were Smogon's secret weapon to measuring usefulness, and over time seasoned players would not use inconsistent, etc. because they were poor strategies (and their use would prove their viability, or brokenness). By that I mean to say that Inconsistent was infuriating because it worked, and could make random sweeps and comebacks from out of the blue.
And I agree with your reasons why sand veil should not be banned.
I'm a very convoluted writer, so sorry about that.
...This proves nothing other than Shanderaa being broken.
I think the real difference between veilchomp and DTnite is more one of nite having a recovery move. It makes Nite able to stall many turns longer than chomp. I would say gliscor, but he has BP so he usually goes with that rather than monoattacking.
Actually, Evasion has been banned ever since Gen 1, though it certainly was way more asshole-ish back then. No Phazing, only shitty Hazers (woohoo for Weezing with STAB Sludge! And Golbat! Though Vaporeon was kinda decent.) and so on.
Smogon never really allowed Evasion as far as I can remember too.
Well, in a similar manner to how weather could be countered by running a weather move, evasion could be beaten by running Clear Smog/Haze, so it certainly isn't uncounterable, just the idea of having to adapt to such a distateful strategy by giving up slots for this isn't much liked by anyone.
Double Team I think is only statistically worth using 1 or 2 times - after that the minor evasion boost vs the chance of repeated attack moves hitting you doesn't pay off, so in general it isn't worth repeatedly using DT - and as an extension of this Inconsistent was banned as it required no effort to set up (was passive).
But there is of course value to promoting a varied and enjoyable meta, and to this end Inconsistent had to go. OHKO moves or Evasion ones I'm unsure about, given that the latter only offers real benefits when used once and even then only significant benefits to Sand Veil and Brightpowder abusers. It seems like in general DT or similar strategies are inferior to less luck reliant ones, and as such are not imbalanced in the manner Inconsistent was, but they admittedly bring little to the meta. Simialrly OHKO moves will rarely be of use if a poke has better options, but the 30% chance to eliminate a possible counter switching in is probably too much for the game to take.
Another reason SV etc are held as more acceptable may be that so few pokes can actually abuse them - and to do so they forfeit a more useful ability. Everyone would use Poison Heal Gliscor if it had SR and Roost, for example. The pokes choosing SV give up something else for it, similarly to how pokes choosing to run DT give up a moveslot for it. Imo the difference between these is little, especially as DT is an active move that you have to give up a turn to use as well as a moveslot.
So it seems to me that theoretically we should keep DT and SV treated in the same way, however since banning SV would remove a lot of options from Chomp and GLiscor etc, it seems like a negative payoff to rid the game of a bit of luck whilst also destroying a lot of these poke's options.
Double Team I think is only statistically worth using 1 or 2 times - after that the minor evasion boost vs the chance of repeated attack moves hitting you doesn't pay off, so in general it isn't worth repeatedly using DT - and as an extension of this Inconsistent was banned as it required no effort to set up (was passive).
But there is of course value to promoting a varied and enjoyable meta, and to this end Inconsistent had to go. OHKO moves or Evasion ones I'm unsure about, given that the latter only offers real benefits when used once and even then only significant benefits to Sand Veil and Brightpowder abusers. It seems like in general DT or similar strategies are inferior to less luck reliant ones, and as such are not imbalanced in the manner Inconsistent was, but they admittedly bring little to the meta. Simialrly OHKO moves will rarely be of use if a poke has better options, but the 30% chance to eliminate a possible counter switching in is probably too much for the game to take.
Another reason SV etc are held as more acceptable may be that so few pokes can actually abuse them - and to do so they forfeit a more useful ability. Everyone would use Poison Heal Gliscor if it had SR and Roost, for example. The pokes choosing SV give up something else for it, similarly to how pokes choosing to run DT give up a moveslot for it. Imo the difference between these is little, especially as DT is an active move that you have to give up a turn to use as well as a moveslot.
So it seems to me that theoretically we should keep DT and SV treated in the same way, however since banning SV would remove a lot of options from Chomp and GLiscor etc, it seems like a negative payoff to rid the game of a bit of luck whilst also destroying a lot of these poke's options.
And their 100% accurate move is still more accurate than the alternative. It's just that that acurracy is now 80%.
And contributes nothing other than luck? Preposterous. It contributes no more luck than, say, Attract or Confuse Ray. Should we ban them, too, while we're at it?
If something adds only luck to the game and no strategy, is there a reason to allow it?
Most moves have some intrinsic luck element, but they also have far more significant strategic implications. Moves such as Attract and Confuse Ray may be mostly luck-based, but they, too, have significant strategic implications, as they can be cured by switching, unlike evasion boosts to your opponent. Also, Attract only works on certain Pokemon, so assuming you don't foolishly set all of your Pokemon to the same gender, it should be a simple matter to bring in one that's immune to the move.
Sand Veil's problem is that it's an intrinsic part of certain Pokemon. Not using Sand Veil means not using Garchomp, and not using Sand Veil + Sand Stream means not using Garchomp on the same team as Hippowdon or Tyranitar. Both of those have strategic implications on their own, rather than being purely luck-centric. Even if those Pokemon get their alternative DW abilities, banning the combination might have other strategic limitations, since it would have other movepool limitations. So... I don't know what to do with regard to that.
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