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Reversal is already very niche, have to get down to 1hp. It is easy to counter since even at +1 it isnt Ko'ing many threats such as toxapex, bulky psychics like slowbro, Lando-t, and it is very vulnerable to Helmet users/Rough Skin users, residual damage. It isn't worth using because SD is better, but even that is outdone by cinderace due to blaziken having a mediocre speed tier before it gains a speed boost, and still it is outrun by scarf latios for ex. All out attacker cinderace is generally better
A small correction here that Cinderace and Blaziken fulfill different roles in teams so I want to say the comparison isn't right to make. Cinderace is a pivot with its ludicrous Speed, good coverage, and access to U-Turn, while Blaziken aims to punch holes in teams or to clean weakened teams where counterplay does not exist anymore. Moreover, most of these Pokemon you mentioned above fear certain Blaziken sets. Toxapex fears Earthquake, Slowbro fears Knock Off, Lando-T just drops down to +1 Flare Blitz whereas the best thing Cinderace do is just U-turn out vs most of these Pokemon.
Can we ever get a Zamazenta Crowned suspect? It seems very clear it wouldn’t be broken... regardless of whether KyuremB stays or goes, we currently have a cover legend stomping around OU who was originally tested because it didn’t have a movepool back in Gen 5... why can’t we test ZamaC? I’m hoping someone can give a thoughtful response beyond lol we have other things to do. I think most players would be inclined to agree it’s demonstrably less broken than things allowed into OU for even brief stints like Lando and Naga, I think a test would have a real possibility of it dropping.
Can we ever get a Zamazenta Crowned suspect? It seems very clear it wouldn’t be broken... regardless of whether KyuremB stays or goes, we currently have a cover legend stomping around OU who was originally tested because it didn’t have a movepool back in Gen 5... why can’t we test ZamaC? I’m hoping someone can give a thoughtful response beyond lol we have other things to do. I think most players would be inclined to agree it’s demonstrably less broken than things allowed into OU for even brief stints like Lando and Naga, I think a test would have a real possibility of it dropping.
While there is a possibility for a potential suspect down the line, the simple fact of the matter is that the metagame is not ready for it, whether it ends up being broken or not; even if it seems like a dumb answer, it is a simple, but ultimate truth. Not even a month ago, we got hit hard with major metagame shifts that we are still trying to stabilize and build off of. Introducing such a big component when we are still trying to sort out the mass of threats that we are still trying optimize both for and against will only create more discord, and stifle much needed development.
Mechanically, we also must consider a fundmental concept behind Smogon's Tiering Policy: complex bans. Even if Crowned alone isn't broken, or vice versa, Zamazenta-H itself has to be balanced for Zamazenta-C to be legal in the tier. Should we allow Zamazenta-C but not Zamazenta-H, it would be like allowing Mega Garchomp in UU, but keeping Garchomp banned. But, even if both are ultimately balanced, it simply is not the time for a suspect, and it would be much better for the council, the players, and the metagame to attempt when the metagame is solved.
Mechanically, we also must consider a fundmental concept behind Smogon's Tiering Policy: complex bans. Even if Crowned alone isn't broken, or vice versa, Zamazenta-H itself has to be balanced for Zamazenta-C to be legal in the tier. Should we allow Zamazenta-C but not Zamazenta-H, it would be like allowing Mega Garchomp in UU, but keeping Garchomp banned.
This particular part isn't actually true. Since Zamazenta remains in its hero/crown form for the entire battle, it's more akin to Silvally, whose base form is currently tiered higher than some of its types.
EDIT: Apparently this is true, despite it being completely contradictory to how Silvally is handled. WTF.
Sorry if this isn't the place to ask but I really don't know where else to go. Where do I ask questions about showdown? I've been having some problems with it and I need some help
Sorry if this isn't the place to ask but I really don't know where else to go. Where do I ask questions about showdown? I've been having some problems with it and I need some help
Hi, sorry if that comes of wrong, but i'm genuinely curious about why mons like Kyurem B or Melmetal are OU while mons like Zamacenta or Solgaleo are Ubers, when Melmetal seems to outclass Solgaleo in every possible way. Have they not been discussed yet?
Hi, sorry if that comes of wrong, but i'm genuinely curious about why mons like Kyurem B or Melmetal are OU while mons like Zamacenta or Solgaleo are Ubers, when Melmetal seems to outclass Solgaleo in every possible way. Have they not been discussed yet?
Hello, don't be afraid to ask questions when the point of this thread is to seek answers.
About Kyurem-B
Kyurem-B is a fairly popular topic that has been discussed actually, you can see some arguments about it here and here. It's been acknowledged by many players including the council members in the metagame thread so I suggest you give that a read.
About Melmetal
Melmetal is by no means broken when we have sufficient defensive counterplay for it. Rocky Helmet punishes Double Iron Bash, Moltres' Flame Body threatens it with a burn, many fast Pokemon threatens it offensively, we have Buzzwole with ridiculous physical bulk and we have Toxapex + Ground-types cores that can switch into any attack. It has no recovery so despite its bulk it cant switch in freely and reliant on pivots in many team structures.
One great thing about Melmetal is being able to punish Kyurem-B and many effortless HO's with ease.
About Solgaleo
Solgaleo isn't outclassed by Melmetal. Solgaleo comes with good secondary typing, reliable and strong moves such as Flare Blitz, Zen Headbutt/Psy Fangs, Earthquake, Close Combat, and Stone Edge to break past its checks which are all superior and safer than the coverage Melmetal usually runs such as Superpower which only hinders the Pokemon's potential. Besides Solgaleo comes with a great variation of utility moves in Knock Off, Teleport, Thunder Wave, Toxic and it can stay healthy with Morning Sun. Melmetal's only advantage over Solgaleo is Double Iron Bash being ridiculously strong but Solgaleo has the potential to break the tier in half with pretty much everything else. Their bulk is similar, their firepower is similar and Solgaleo is a bit bulkier on the special side.
Lastly, right now OU tiering council is holding a player survey to gather feedback from the community, which asks players' opinions about it as well. You can find it here and express your thoughts about all the aforementioned Pokemon including Zamazenta.
I've routinely been a hermit throughout the gens, and with what's been going on with the meta as it changes, so this is going to seem like a pretty silly question, but I would appreciate an explanation.
Why is it that Pokemon with transfer moves only, such as Slowbro with Teleport, can be used with those moves through stuff like Smogon/Showdown, but not through the online battle system in-game? The game makes you "delete" transfer moves to be able to fight vs people, and can't you get banned regardless if you somehow bypass that/have a hacked mon?
Anyway, I would love to be able to use transfer moves in-game, online, like we're able to around here. But the loss of some of those moves seem very crucial for certain Pokemon, so is the competitive meta for in-game different than off-game? Are there specific terms to categorize each, or something else I'm unaware about?
Check the link you want to look at the full details. The core difference is they are a double battles format with 4 of 6 pokemon being used while standard play here is singles and full 6 v 6. The others, as you bring up, is that official rules limit Pokemon to stuff from Galar or given the Galar mark which cleans out any moves that can be brought up from older games (Toxic and Knock Off are the two moves you'll most often lose out on). Smogon allows a Pokemon to originate from any games so any tools it gets in those games (Teleport from Go or Wish Blissey) are fair game.
That said I've often wondered what OU would look like if it had a "Galar Mark" version. Basically everything losing access to Toxic and Knock Off would make for a very different environment. But that would likely be a topic best for Other Metas.
The SS OU metagame is in a very interesting place, with several potentially broken monsters running around causing havoc. That said the winds of change are blowing in the form of the latest OU player survey, but I'm not ready to simply put my head down toward the future and not acknowledge some of the very cool Pokemon and team strategies that currently exist in this meta ruled by Zygarde and Kyurem-Black. As someone who has been doing a lot of building and playing the past two weeks I'd like to take the time to discuss some of the more interesting meta trends I have been seeing, before we go through another shift in the form of some likely bans.
As great as Zygarde currently is in the metagame, there are other Ground type Pokemon capable of finding success. I'd like to take a second and go over two of my favorites, and explain why they are solid picks in the current metagame.
SD Garchomp is a monster in the current metagame. The damage output at +2 is sort of ridiculous, several would be checks and counters simply fold to Garchomp. With SpDef Zygarde being the premiere Ground type in the tier a lot of team have started to use pseudo Ground resists like a Slowbro or Clefable + a Flying type and calling it good, but that just doesn't work with Garchomp who can power through. On top of this power, Garchomp has the same typing as Zygarde. Meaning it similarly can help switch into Heatran, and serve as the teams Electric immunity to keep Regieleki in check. On top of what was already great on Garchomp, it got a new toy this generation in Scale Shot. A multi hit move that raises Garchomp's speed, giving it the potential to clean teams. However, I am not the biggest fan of the set since Scale Shot is to unreliable to trust in my opinion. I still really like EdgeQuake on Garchomp, as it is sad how often people try and check +2 Garchomp with a Zapdos, Moltres, or Mandibuzz. The final slot has a lot of potential from Stealth Rock to Draco Meteor to a personal favorite in Aerial Ace which just shreds Buzzwole and opens games up for teammates like CB Urshifu-S a ton in that match up.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 286-339 (72.5 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 374-441 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 329-387 (81.4 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 376-445 (109.3 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 426-504 (100.7 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 416-494 (99.5 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Nidoking is a really cool pick in the current metagame, that is more than capable of holding its own. It serves as a teams Ground type checking Regieleki, and unlike Garchomp and Zygarde it resists Dazzling Gleam from Tapu Koko allowing it to better check it. Nidoking is also a grounded Poison type, which is great to have in a meta where Toxic Spikes Toxapex seems to be getting more and more frequent usage. Aside from absorbing Tspikes Nidoking is pretty good on the utility front itself being able to set Stealth rock or Tspikes for its own team. All that said utility and defensive capabilities are not why you use Nidoking, it is for Sheer Force + Life Orb attacks that simply tear teams apart. Between STAB Earth Power and Sludge Wave, on top of great coverage options like Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, and even something like Superpower to catch a Blissey the ability to tear bulkier teams apart is very prevalent. Also it is worth noting that at least I prefer King>Queen due to their speed tier. With mons like Heatran running around, Nido really cannot afford to be any slower. Overall though Nidoking rips apart a ton of common defensive cores right now, and has just enough defensive utility to find itself a home on successful teams in the current metagame.
Going back to last generation Zapdos was a solid OU mon and Moltres had a niche on some stalls, but with the introduction of Heavy Duty Boots these two have really taken off in the tier and most balances use on of these two mons. Being able to avoid hazard damage, along with strong defensive typing for the metagame, and abilities that spread status on contact have really helped these two find their place. I still worry about Moltres a bit more as it really dislikes being Knocked Off, meaning switching into something like Rillaboom can be difficult since a predicted Knock Off really hurts the longevity of Moltres, and it usually feels like a net negative even if you burn the Rillaboom. That said Moltres is still solid checking the likes of Pheromosa, Kartana, Heatran if Moltres is Scorching Sands, Melmetal, Buzzwole, and can even help vs Cinderace a bit among others. Zapdos checks many of the same Pokemon with the exception of Heatran, Cinderace and it fears the Ice move from Pheromosa a bit more, while better checking Rillaboom, Tornadus-T, Gapdos, and Tapu Fini. Overall these two are really solid picks in the metagame, and really good deterents to most physical attackers. When one of these two are in a game it creates actual negative consequences from clicking U-turn outside of potential Helmet/Rough Skin/Iron Barb damage, which is really nice for bulkier teams that want to avoid getting caught in the vortex. Also do not sleep on offensive sets from either of these two, they can put in work.
Buzzwole is everywhere right now, and for good reason. It walls Urshifu-S, Zygarde, Rillaboom, Kartana, Exacdrill, non-Fly Landorus-T, and is helpful against Pheromosa, Garchomp (mixed is a threat), Kyurem-B, Melmetal, among others. On top of checking a large portion of the physical threats in the metagame, Buzzwole is able to exert some pressure of its own being able to act as a wincon vs fatter teams thanks to Bulk Up + Roost allowing to help break down bulkier teams. I have really liked the combination of Buzzwole + Kanto bird, as the two in combination check most physical threats in the tier. If you have not tried Buzzwole yet I strongly recommend it, it feels like this thing always puts in work just walling some threat on the opposing team.
Spectrier is a very interesting mon as it basically relies on its STAB Ghost type attack, be it Shadow Ball or Hex, and still manages to be an incredibel threat in the tier. Its effect on the tier is definitely felt on the tier as it more or less warps the tier into finding a way to check it. I feel like this will only get worse as more sets like Sub Taunt and Sub Disable get more usage making would be checks fall flat, but only time will tell on that. All of that said I want to go over some of the main ways I've been checking Spectrier as it can be kind of difficult.
It shouldn't be much of a surprise that bulkier Dark types are seen as favorable options to checking Spectrier. It is kind of unfortunate that the number of viable bulkier Dark types is not bigger, but it is better than nothing. Mandibuzz is still solid shrugging off any hit and Roosting off the damage, Tyranitar has seen a shift towards bulky SpDef sets this DLC to better check threats like Spectrier as well as Volcarona and Zapdos, and Zarude has been finding a cool niche thanks to Jungle Healing as it is able to check both Spectrier and Zygarde, resisting their spammed stab and removing the status from Will-O-Wisp and Glare respectively.
Blissey has even started to run Shadow Ball to better answer Spectrier, but this is one of the adaptations that fear Sub Disable sets. Blissey is starting to feel a bit of 4MSS in the current metagame as it would really like Soft-Boiled, Seismic Toss, Shadow Ball, Toxic, Stealth Rock, and Teleport. Personally I am not the biggest fan of Shadow Ball Blissey and would rather run Teleport + something like Melmetal or Infiltrator Dragapult that can get in on the free switch from Teleport and threaten Spectrier even if it is behind the Substitute.
I mentioned Melmetal and Dragapult a second ago since they are very helpful, and similarly fall into this category with Heatran, but since Heatran does not have a way to hit a mon behind a Sub I am giving it its own section. Heatran is immune to Will-O-Wisp, and SpDef sets can stomach Hex and Shadow Ball well enough to help check it. I would not rely on Heatran alone, it is more a scenario of one of the first four mentioned: Mandibuzz / Tyranitar / Zarude / Blissey + Melmetal / Dragapult / Heatran, and you should be good to go.
That is all I had that I really wanted to go over in detail. I want to mention that Rain is really strong right now, and common on the ladder as it seems to be proving fairly consistent in a meta full of broken threats. Finally, I really hope the DLC2 metagame continues to develop well, as this is honestly the most fun the game has felt since SM for me personally.
Step 3: You can check https://serebii.net/pokedex-swsh/ and search for the mon you want
Step 4: Right click on the sprite on serebii and hit "copy image address"
Step 5: Paste the sprite URL into the box that opened before from the toolbar. It'll look like this once you do:
Step 6: Hit "Insert"
Step 7: You're done and your sprite is here!
Step 8: Repeat for other mons, or simply adjust the sprite URL's link to match the pokedex number of the mon you want. For example, Giratina was #487. If you want Kartana's sprite (#798), then you simply change the 487 into 798 at the end of the URL, and then paste in the box like before and you'll be set.
Step 9: For forme changes, serebii will usually have the other forme sprite on the page, but usually the easy way to remember is to add "-x" where x can be anything depending on the mon. For Galarian formes, you can usually add -g, for alolan forms, you can add -a, and so on. Giratina-origin would use -o since that's the name of the other form.
Step 3: You can check https://serebii.net/pokedex-swsh/ and search for the mon you want
Step 4: Right click on the sprite on serebii and hit "copy image address"
Step 5: Paste the sprite URL into the box that opened before from the toolbar. It'll look like this once you do:
Step 6: Hit "Insert"
Step 7: You're done and your sprite is here!
Step 8: Repeat for other mons, or simply adjust the sprite URL's link to match the pokedex number of the mon you want. For example, Giratina was #487. If you want Kartana's sprite (#798), then you simply change the 487 into 798 at the end of the URL, and then paste in the box like before and you'll be set.
Step 9: For forme changes, serebii will usually have the other forme sprite on the page, but usually the easy way to remember is to add "-x" where x can be anything depending on the mon. For Galarian formes, you can usually add -g, for alolan forms, you can add -a, and so on. Giratina-origin would use -o since that's the name of the other form.
What's a good substitute for Tornadus (ideally defog/rapid spin and u-turn type pivot move, but i can be flexible) that can help check Tapu Koko? What are some good Tapu Koko checks in general? My normal electric immunity is Zygarde which doesn't really help
What's a good substitute for Tornadus (ideally defog/rapid spin and u-turn type pivot move, but i can be flexible) that can help check Tapu Koko? What are some good Tapu Koko checks in general? My normal electric immunity is Zygarde which doesn't really help
Well Defog Lando-T could be the move here. It’s obviously immune to Electric, on top of having the strongest unboosted Earthquake in the tier. Additionally, it has good bulk with Intimdate helping this out, and utility with U-turn, Toxic and Knock Off. I’d recommend either the Defensive Set or the Choic Scarf set for this- they can be found on this thread.
What's a good substitute for Tornadus (ideally defog/rapid spin and u-turn type pivot move, but i can be flexible) that can help check Tapu Koko? What are some good Tapu Koko checks in general? My normal electric immunity is Zygarde which doesn't really help
Landorus-T is definitely the Pokemon that you are looking for, and this set if probably the best one you can choose as a bulky Defogger. You could probably use Choice Scarf with Knock Off or Stone Edge replacing rocks and using the same moves if you want to but I don't think its good at all right now since you either have to lock into Earthquake, which can be easily pivoted on by opposing Landorus-T, Corviknight and Mandibuzz which are common, or spam U-turn. Note that this isn't exactly the best Tapu Koko check since Dazzling Gleam can hit it pretty hard, however with a Fairy-resist alongside Landorus-T, Tapu Koko will become more easy to play around. Jolly with 52 Speed EVs are used for outspeeding Modest Heatran and Timid Magearna and the rest is dumped to HP and Defense.
Was Cinderace unbanned from Ubers? I checked on Smogon and Showdown and it says that it's OU. But I haven't found any reports about Cinderace being unbanned. The most recent report I found was 1 month ago saying it would still be in Ubers.
Was Cinderace unbanned from Ubers? I checked on Smogon and Showdown and it says that it's OU. But I haven't found any reports about Cinderace being unbanned. The most recent report was 1 month ago saying it would still be in Ubers.
Was Cinderace unbanned from Ubers? I checked on Smogon and Showdown and it says that it's OU. But I haven't found any reports about Cinderace being unbanned. The most recent report I found was 1 month ago saying it would still be in Ubers.
with the DLC2 Pack Crown Tundra, some former Ubers like Kyurem-Black and Cinderace got unbanned to see, how they fit in the current metagame. So Cinderace with Libero is now in the OverUsed-Tier and is useable there, the Sets can vary from team to team, but it is Heavy-Duty Boots with a Jolly / Adamant Nature and Pyro Ball, U-turn, High Jump Kick, Zen Headbutt, and Gunk Shot. On rather Hyper Offensive-teams the Set could be Bulk Up with 3 Attacks. Hope this helped!
Since Zamazenta-C has been overtly discussed by literally everyone, this question is specifically meant for staff / the council.
Assuming that the Zygarde / Kyu-B suspects / QBs happen soon, is there a reasonable timetable the userbase can expect a suspect test of Zamazenta-C in OU?
https://serebii.net/pokedex-swsh/icon/487.png
https://serebii.net/pokedex-swsh/icon/798.png
