What item do you run on primarina?What are your favorite UU Pokémon’s that do really well in OU?
——-
I’ve been experimenting a lot with about 8 different “UU All-stars” teams in OU. Where the common theme is all Pokémon’s have to be legal in UU, and the overall team needs to be optimised for OU.
after this experimentation on the ladder.. peaking at about 1980, with various teams averaging from 1600s to 1850s (no team so far averaged higher than 1900s in ELO)… need to make the following comments:
1. The best all stars team usedAegislash,
Keldeo,
Mandibuzz and
Bulu. This core is shockingly proficient both offensively and defensively. And this is with only Mandibuzz running pure defensive EV spreads! It caused a strong zapdos weakness, hippodown + your choice of rotom could deal with it.
2.Rotom-H is really good in OU right now.. it harasses common cores and can switch into melmetal, as well as most fliers and even defensive Garchomp, Garchomp is supposed to be a check for it!Just hit 219 speed, 252 HP, invest in your choice of SpD or Def, and use nasty plot + thunderbolt + overheat + pain split
3. running a “breedable” UU all-stars team in OU is really hard.. you basically need a super strong wall breaker like Crawdaunt, and outside of the rotoms, slowking and maybe slowbro-g, good pivots or Pokémon that can be both defensive/offensive are hard to find.
4. No matter the UU all stars team you build, urshifu, dragapult, kartana, heatran, garchomp and the rest of the hard hitting gang will all be a nightmare to deal with. You can probably see why
5.Primarina is disgustingly good when the opponent doesn’t have a Blissey, chansey, glowking or Ferrothorn. It’s always a fun time when toxapex isn’t packing an offensive poison move.
6. UU Allstars rain teams aren’t too bad. Who woulda thunkmoltres could be a rain threat?
7. Speaking of rain teams..Politoed isn’t too bad, it has 1x unique niche over pelliper, that is access to encore and perish song. It can come in surprisingly handy!
8.is really fun to use when it works. Unfortunately it’s just the 1000th reason landorus-t is the best Pokémon in OU.
—
- shadow ball
- shadow sneak
- kings shield
- close combat
item is leftovers. Nature and EVs can be flexible, I used 252+ SpA, and alternated between more bulk, or more speed.Your choice of speed EVs depends on the benchmark you wanna hit:
• 0 Spe and negative nature gives max bulk, making you a super reliable lele check, but Aegislash will be weak against stall or very bulky teams.
• between 0 Spe- and 100 Spe, there’s benchmarks like clefable, Blissey, etc. if you’re picking a spot between the two, just benchmark against those switch ins
• 100 Spe and neutral nature puts you in a nice middle ground of bulky Pokémon, where you outspeed switch ins like corviknight, to make it harder to roost stall on you, whilst under speeding Mandibuzz, Incase you can sneak in a close combat on her in the end game.
why is this Aegislash set so good?
it’s because a Pokémon is only as good as it’s ability to either 1. Switch into a challenging threat or 2. Deal with repeated switch ins from Pokémon that check it.
defensively, aegislash is a rare find that can switch into top threats like lele, combo threats like screens + Cloyster, mediocre threats like Hawlucha, out of favour threats like zapdos-g, and fringe threats like Bulu.
kings shield can scout choice moves. It can also be used to recover hp, so for example, when you switch in on a lele, you can actually recover 18.75% before you switch out again (boosted with grassy terrain support)
you can switch into common predicted soft moves, like a toxic, or strong ones like close combat for the quick 6.25% or 12.5% recovery. (Boosted by terrain).
Aegislash shadow ball conveniently 3hkos its most common check: SpD landorus.. so it puts good pressure on it. It also forces out slower switch ins like toxapex or clefable if it is lucky to get a SpD drop or crit (24.8% chance). Shadow sneak is a really cool tool because you’ll notice 2 shadow balls pits most Pokémon into 0-20% HP range, whilst most other Pokémon get into that range from 3 shadow balls.
some examples replays:
Aegislash handles screen supported cloyster quite reliably. Coming in numerous times over a match. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1586161389-5pnv6c6esrhpgbjemvazy7g8ault5q3pw
sometimes choiced Pokémon can be a liability, such as when you’re against an Aegislash. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1585197571-5d827eyc9pjvzjf4n8yfpnoqnopma1mpw
Here’s a really fun 2000s ELO matchup with Aegislash vs Aegislash. You’ll see the opponents Aegislash walls my Bulu, whilst my aegislash tries it’s best to shield against the extremely strong onslaught. Ultimately I lost due to losing momentum far too early against extreme offense. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1580951557-dfr3okbsfzo2x7lw861l8pthahmom98pw
Aegislash best counter (to the set I mentioned) by far is Mandibuzz. Here’s a match where I get completely walled, almost effortlessly, due to a very difficult to break defensive backbone. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1580705429-4zpw447syo3yfupuq5xm3doty3iwqfupw
Sometimes Aegislash will win in matchups you don’t expect.. like against a magnezone https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1580129871-1m1rjd45pg8jpcl00vidvc61d03pyu5pw
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I think her best set is still metronome, as it can setup on toxapex and beats a lot of the defensive cores that rely on clefable or regenerator spam. It loses to blissey and usually Ferrothorn tho
—-
What’s everyone’s thoughts on balloon heatran right now?
I think if you don’t get your double switches predicted, it’s extremely dangerous right now,
here’s an experimental team in 1700s ladder with balloon heatran + torkoal sun support
it OHKOd clefable in the sun!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1671144128-hweyc3q21dhbucry7qm4a244cyt1jpypw
Last edited:
Don't tell me about Liquid Voice Echoed Voice Metronome, Calm Mind helps with Max SpA Modest.
It can OHKO Ferrothorn at Max BP (200) in Rain and +1 SpA and that 2HKOes Blissey.
Primarina can OHKO Blissey with Max Power Metronome and 200 BP Echoed Voice in rain, I guess Blissey isn't safe from this.
The conditions for this to happen is absurd and is so unlikely to happen that this is a gimmick at best. The fact that you have to have rain, and get the 200 bp echoed voice without getting revenge killed by any grass or electric type.
Primarina offensively the only niche it has is that unlike Fini it breaks Pex with Psychic. Granted, Fini does that too with Taunt, but Poison Jab is a thing. So, either Specs or CM need to have Psychic in order to be different from Fini.
Defensively is another story. While barely less bulky, Primarina can use Rest and Flip Turn (Fini can do the former too with Telepathy, but not the latter), so unlike standard Fini, it is not worn down by repeated assaults of Watershifu and Weavile and can use a slow Flip Turn in order to bring a threat safety into the field. Watershifu and Weavile are the Main mons you will be checking, but it also works for Heatran, Garchomp, Nite, Buzzwole, Crawdaunt, the bad fish, Blaziken, Pult, Cloyster and Blace. Of course, it's not a perfect check for most of them, but it does work as a soft check that, unlike things like Pex, doesn't sink momentum.
So, if using Primarina in OU, the optimal set (in my opinion) for it is: Max Hp, Max Defense, Relaxed nature (and min Speed), Restalk, Moonblast and Flip Turn (Scald is an option too, but Fini would usually be better with this, since the bulk is higher). As items, Rocky Helmet (Surging Strikes and Triple Axel are fun), Leftovers, Boots and Chesto Berry in this order of preference.
Defensively is another story. While barely less bulky, Primarina can use Rest and Flip Turn (Fini can do the former too with Telepathy, but not the latter), so unlike standard Fini, it is not worn down by repeated assaults of Watershifu and Weavile and can use a slow Flip Turn in order to bring a threat safety into the field. Watershifu and Weavile are the Main mons you will be checking, but it also works for Heatran, Garchomp, Nite, Buzzwole, Crawdaunt, the bad fish, Blaziken, Pult, Cloyster and Blace. Of course, it's not a perfect check for most of them, but it does work as a soft check that, unlike things like Pex, doesn't sink momentum.
So, if using Primarina in OU, the optimal set (in my opinion) for it is: Max Hp, Max Defense, Relaxed nature (and min Speed), Restalk, Moonblast and Flip Turn (Scald is an option too, but Fini would usually be better with this, since the bulk is higher). As items, Rocky Helmet (Surging Strikes and Triple Axel are fun), Leftovers, Boots and Chesto Berry in this order of preference.
I think that offensive Primarina isn’t any better than 
Fini. it does get psychic, but in OU psychic hits: Zapdos-Galar (just moonblast it), Urshifu-Rapid-Strike (just moonblast it) and Toxapex. Tapu Fini’s Whirlpool + Perish Song + Taunt works far better at eliminating Toxapex and other walls too.
as for using Primarina defensively, i would just run
Swampert instead, another UU mon that has flip turn yet can also provide support with moves like Stealth Rock, Toxic, Yawn etc. electric immunity is also useful because how strong things like Zeraora or Regieleki are (both of which kill/chip Primarina). Primarina does have more resistances than Swampert though.
i feel that both Tapu Fini and Swampert essentially eliminate most of Primarina’s viability in OU.
Primarina isn’t any better than Fini. it does get psychic, but in OU psychic hits: Zapdos-Galar (just moonblast it), Urshifu-Rapid-Strike (just moonblast it) and Toxapex. Tapu Fini’s Whirlpool + Perish Song + Taunt works far better at eliminating Toxapex and other walls too.as for using Primarina defensively, i would just run
Swampert instead, another UU mon that has flip turn yet can also provide support with moves like Stealth Rock, Toxic, Yawn etc. electric immunity is also useful because how strong things like Zeraora or Regieleki are (both of which kill/chip Primarina). Primarina does have more resistances than Swampert though.i feel that both
Tapu Fini and Swampert essentially eliminate most of Primarina’s viability in OU.
I fucking hate landorus,I wish there was a pokemon that could trap him.
I hope he will fall from grace in gen 9.
I hope he will fall from grace in gen 9.
Literally just stop being filtered. Just spamming Close Combat and Earthquake like the opponent doesn’t have a common and versitile pivot for it.
While landorus-therian is annoying at times, I do think it already has fallen from grace. Weaville, ice punch melmetal, hail ho and rain have dealt a massive blow to its popularity. The fact that most if not every physical attacker in ou can carry a move that threatens landy or just 2hko it on the switch is telling. Even Pokemon that landorus theoretically walls like excadrill sometimes run rock slide to wear it down or toxic to cripple it further or even dracozolt which can run a gimmicky fire spin set to trap and kill it with draco meteor.
I wouldn’t say landorus is anywhere near its former level of prominence due to the fact that the meta has adapted and become somewhat hostile to it.
I don't just like the Choice Band variants of Landorus-Therian, it just hits like an Huge Train.
In light of the recent survey results about Quick Claw and Quick Draw, I wanted to make a post with my thoughts on the matter. Somewhere last month I was forced kindly asked by my friends to get some replays of QCQD being stupid. So I did. It was one of the most obnoxious laddering experience I can remember. They'll probably make a more in-depth post on the topic sometime, I just want to voice my own opinion.
The main issue with running QC imo are it's inconsistency and opportunity cost. The inconsistency is the most glaring one, with QC only activating 20% of the time, you are effectively itemless for most of the battle. Obviously, thats way less mileage than you'd get out of other items like Choice items, Pads, Lefties and whatnot. But the trade-off for that is getting the 20% chance where you are able to move first, which is quite significant (more on this later).
Most mons that can attempt to run QC can also realistically run any other offensive item and perform more consistently. CB Melm has more damage output, Lefties or Pads Melm has more longetivity. QC Melm has a funny 20% chance to blast the opposing mon, but the other 80% you sit there wondering why it's even worth it.
By far the most porblematic part about Quick Claw is that when it activates, it just basically invalidates offensive counterplay. You got your Lando-T in against a Glowbro to finish it off? Tough luck, he got the 44% activation chance and now your Lando has been Ice Beamed to a very cold grave. Or you put your Barraskewda against a weakened Melmetal, and then get thunder punched and KO'd.
I believe that QC is different from other items that affect speed in that it solely relies on RNG. Choice Scarf has the trade-off of being locked into 1 move and Custap only activates once below a certain HP.
Quick Claw is uncompetitive, but it is not overpowered or too strong by any means
In the same vein as OHKO attacks, my opinion on the matter is that QC simply doesnt add anything beneficial to the metagame. It's a strat that relies on a 1/5 activation chance to have any effect at all, but when it does, the activation can completely swing a battle. OHKO attacks have a similar thing, that being a 30% chance to just outright delete an opposing mon. QC has a bit more counterplay like switching in a defensive mon that can take the hit, but assessing the posibility that 1) the opponent is running QC and 2) it actually activates, is almost never considered because realistically, why would you give up your momentum when you have a normally good check on the field.
Likewise, for the player running the item, it just leads to frustration because my Glowbro never fucking procs his QCQD for some reason but my opponent hits 3 focus blasts in a row. Its incredibly obnoxious to run and this is why there probably hasn't been any discussion about this untill like once 2 months ago. It's just not really worth your time, but at the same time its really stupid to face off against this gimmick just because you might get bad luck and lose to a QC proc.
Here's a few replays that showcase QC (They're not exactly high ladder - just here to show what QC can get away with)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1634854608
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1634840985-wwowaoxtqpi3iy0abwj5vp81p1iilrppw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1637646607
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1635637639-iqu9b0rtgb9xi1bmfd0t9irnhny2fpxpw
The main issue with running QC imo are it's inconsistency and opportunity cost. The inconsistency is the most glaring one, with QC only activating 20% of the time, you are effectively itemless for most of the battle. Obviously, thats way less mileage than you'd get out of other items like Choice items, Pads, Lefties and whatnot. But the trade-off for that is getting the 20% chance where you are able to move first, which is quite significant (more on this later).
Most mons that can attempt to run QC can also realistically run any other offensive item and perform more consistently. CB Melm has more damage output, Lefties or Pads Melm has more longetivity. QC Melm has a funny 20% chance to blast the opposing mon, but the other 80% you sit there wondering why it's even worth it.
By far the most porblematic part about Quick Claw is that when it activates, it just basically invalidates offensive counterplay. You got your Lando-T in against a Glowbro to finish it off? Tough luck, he got the 44% activation chance and now your Lando has been Ice Beamed to a very cold grave. Or you put your Barraskewda against a weakened Melmetal, and then get thunder punched and KO'd.
I believe that QC is different from other items that affect speed in that it solely relies on RNG. Choice Scarf has the trade-off of being locked into 1 move and Custap only activates once below a certain HP.
Quick Claw is uncompetitive, but it is not overpowered or too strong by any means
In the same vein as OHKO attacks, my opinion on the matter is that QC simply doesnt add anything beneficial to the metagame. It's a strat that relies on a 1/5 activation chance to have any effect at all, but when it does, the activation can completely swing a battle. OHKO attacks have a similar thing, that being a 30% chance to just outright delete an opposing mon. QC has a bit more counterplay like switching in a defensive mon that can take the hit, but assessing the posibility that 1) the opponent is running QC and 2) it actually activates, is almost never considered because realistically, why would you give up your momentum when you have a normally good check on the field.
Likewise, for the player running the item, it just leads to frustration because my Glowbro never fucking procs his QCQD for some reason but my opponent hits 3 focus blasts in a row. Its incredibly obnoxious to run and this is why there probably hasn't been any discussion about this untill like once 2 months ago. It's just not really worth your time, but at the same time its really stupid to face off against this gimmick just because you might get bad luck and lose to a QC proc.
Here's a few replays that showcase QC (They're not exactly high ladder - just here to show what QC can get away with)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1634854608
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1634840985-wwowaoxtqpi3iy0abwj5vp81p1iilrppw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1637646607
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1635637639-iqu9b0rtgb9xi1bmfd0t9irnhny2fpxpw
I want to like your suggestion, but it’s kinda like the perfect conditions needed for liquid voice to work, the opponent needs to have a pads urshifu without any coverage, or a HDB Weavile, etc. banded Weavile or standard crawdaunt will muscle right past 252/252+ primarina, and primarina is vulnerable to all status.
you’re best off using her “defensively” by baiting out a lead urshifu/Weavile/dragapult, and then blowing strong hits into the other team once they’re forced out of your moonblast. A defensive primarina might struggle to pass 1800s unless the entire team is built around it, an offensive primarina can muscle past approximately 65% of the balance teams compositions in 1800+ that are lacking blissey.
long story short, a defensive set isn’t optimal, as primarina can barely check the offensive Pokémon it’s supposed to. And I haven’t even started on the fact that it’s not very good at switching into any common pivots either, it hates volt switches, toxics, etc.
offensively primarina is different to Fini. Fini makes a great wincon calm mind user, primarina is better as a wall breaker, as Fini’s traditional taunt + natures madness + knock off wall breaker set struggles to break past the regenerator spam present on contemporary stall teams.I think that offensive
as for using Primarina defensively, i would just run
i feel that both
Most of the OLT I used a defensive Primarina. I couldnt qualify, but consistently was above 1800 ,even reaching 2000 sometimes in the hardest ladder of the year.
And no, I didnt build the many versions of the same team (Primarina, Landó-T,Scizor and 3 breakers who varied between teams) around Primarina, in fact it was the opposite way around, after choosing the first breaker, Primarina ( and Lando, and Scizor) came naturally to the team because of how many things it soft checks while offering a slow pivoting move that allowed to bring the 3 breakers safely, so they could start dealing damage. Of course sometimes Primarina ended up overwhelmed, but not before dealing some damage with Stab Moonblast or Rocky Helmet and not before pivoting at least a couple of times so that my Band Weavile and Specs Zapdos ( example breakers I used) entered into the field and destroyed a portion of opposing teams. The entire strategy of my team (3 breakers and 3 slow pivots) wouldnt have worked without something with such a great defensive typing Water Fairy is.
In the end it was not enough to qualify, but thats my problem at playing, defensive Primarina was way above 1800 on average in a very hostile ladder in which people always counterteam.
Last edited:
Here a example of Tornadus-Therian OVERKILLING a Landorus-Therian with Ice Weather Ball
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1544194682-866fcgx57uj18fmqidjwg33bieo05bppw
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Weather Ball (100 BP Ice) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian in Hail: 468-552 (122.5 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian in Rain: 350-414 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
It gets the guaranteed OHKO on Hail, and of course that was on a defensive Landorus-Therian, It's like Weather Ball Tornadus-Therian fits on a Dual Weather team.
Seeing as Water Weather Ball (which is already kinda gimmicky) OHKOs with rocks or a bit of chip, it hardly seems worth running hail specifically to OHKO it without rocks. Maybe if you're already running some double weather team, but now we're already deep in gimmick land. You could also just run Nasty Plot, boost on the switch, and OHKO with Hurricane.
Also, why did you even quote that guy's post? What on earth does Weather Ball Torn-T have to do with Quick Claw/Draw?
Also, why did you even quote that guy's post? What on earth does Weather Ball Torn-T have to do with Quick Claw/Draw?
Pretty sure Hyper was trying to reply to the person complaining about Landorus-T or something.
But anyways.
Seeing as how there are still less than viable (or rather less than reliable) things banned like King’s Rock and OHKO moves, I don’t really a reason not to ban Quick Claw.
What really can you say about Quick Claw that you can’t say about King’s Rock? Only thing you can say is that King’s Rock got Cloyster, but what about Bright Powder, or Weather Evasion abilities?
I feel similar about Quick Draw, and tbh abilities like Static and Flamebody. Are they OP? No. Are they uncompetitive? Hell yes they are, and I’m tired of pretending they aren’t.
But anyways.
Seeing as how there are still less than viable (or rather less than reliable) things banned like King’s Rock and OHKO moves, I don’t really a reason not to ban Quick Claw.
What really can you say about Quick Claw that you can’t say about King’s Rock? Only thing you can say is that King’s Rock got Cloyster, but what about Bright Powder, or Weather Evasion abilities?
I feel similar about Quick Draw, and tbh abilities like Static and Flamebody. Are they OP? No. Are they uncompetitive? Hell yes they are, and I’m tired of pretending they aren’t.
Neither flame body nor static at all compare to Quick Claw, nor are they uncompetitive. They have legitimate strategic merit and are used as a smart way to deter mindless spam of dangeroys physical attacks. These abilities make the pokemon who use them even more reliable and let them check more pokemon. It's anothet aspect of risk management which pokemon has a lot of.
Unlike quick claw and quick draw, which soley exist to break one of the core rules of the game (speed tiers) by way of an RNG dice role, with no strategic or skillfull application by comparison.
I forgot to say myself about my opinions about Quick Claw and Quick Claw:
In order to Quick Draw to activate, it must be a Damaging Move. A mixed Slowbro-Galar can take advantage of Shell Side Arm which is the Same Power as Sludge Bomb and its slightly stronger than Poison Jab. it gets Drain Punch and Focus Blast to deal with Bisharp and Tyranitar. Earthquake handles Heatran well. Also a reminder that Priority moves bypass Quick Claw or Quick Draw useless if the pokemon with the Item / Ability has a Priority move too.
Also in Emerald Battle Frontier, Quick Claw screwed me countless times such activating twice and many other blunders.
Flame Body and Static shouldn't even be brought up in a discussion about Quick Claw/Draw. You can play around Flame Body/Static. You can hard switch instead of U-Turn, you can predict when users of those abilities will come in and click better moves to use in those circumstances, you can even run Heal Bell if random paras and burns are such a huge problem for you.
No such counterplay exists for Quick Claw/Draw. Sometimes the opponent will randomly get to go first and there's nothing you can do about it. The only reliable counterplay is to play super defensively around Quick Claw/Draw users, which isn't exactly easy when the best users have ways of punishing excessively defensive play, such as Nasty Plot and Future Sight.
I think Quick Claw as well as all other purely RNG-based items (Bright Powder, Lax Incense, and Focus Band namely) should simply be banned. This has actually been my opinion for... like ever, now. I know that some of these items might not be broken, but they objectively fit the definition of uncompetitive that Smogon's tiering philosiphy is based on. Their activation is purely RNG-based and there's no realistic way to play around their effects. They take an element of control over the battle completely out of the hands of both players and leave it at the mercy of the random number generator instead. There is no reason why they should be allowed in a competitive metagame.
I understand a similar discussion took place in Policy Review, but I don't think anything ever came of it, despite a seeming general agreement that RNG-based items have no competitive value.
No such counterplay exists for Quick Claw/Draw. Sometimes the opponent will randomly get to go first and there's nothing you can do about it. The only reliable counterplay is to play super defensively around Quick Claw/Draw users, which isn't exactly easy when the best users have ways of punishing excessively defensive play, such as Nasty Plot and Future Sight.
I think Quick Claw as well as all other purely RNG-based items (Bright Powder, Lax Incense, and Focus Band namely) should simply be banned. This has actually been my opinion for... like ever, now. I know that some of these items might not be broken, but they objectively fit the definition of uncompetitive that Smogon's tiering philosiphy is based on. Their activation is purely RNG-based and there's no realistic way to play around their effects. They take an element of control over the battle completely out of the hands of both players and leave it at the mercy of the random number generator instead. There is no reason why they should be allowed in a competitive metagame.
I understand a similar discussion took place in Policy Review, but I don't think anything ever came of it, despite a seeming general agreement that RNG-based items have no competitive value.
Dusk Mage Necrozma
formerly XenonHero126
If you're using QCQD Glowbro you probably want to be using it with a setup move, either Nasty Plot or Belly Drum, which obviously doesn't mesh with going mixed (special sets can use Psyshock anyway if you're worried about Blissey). Belly Drum is the more memey one but it can certainly win games swiftly with Drain Punch recovery giving it survivability. Either set could find a place on Screens or Veil HO ig.
I've been playing around a bit with Choice Band Dragonite and I think it has potential. Losing both Boots and DD is of course terrible but the amazing revenging power that band ESpeed provides as well as a significantly stronger Earthquake and the ability to run more coverage is pretty good. You can even run Roost to take advantage of forced switches. Obviously this appreciates Defog support so that Rocks can't break Multiscale.
Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature/Adamant nature
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Dual Wingbeat/Roost/Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch/Roost/Ice Punch
Your last two slots are pretty fluid, Dual Wingbeat is your strongest neutral option, Thunder Punch kills metal birds and Slowbro, Roost gives you survivability and replenishes Multiscale but requires smart play, Ice Punch kills Lando and Zapdos. It's not a good set but imo it's worth considering.
Roost on a Choice Item is not a good idea since something like Dragon Dance Tyranitar or Calm Mind Tapu Lele will get the advantage to set up when Dragonite is locked to Roost forcing it to switch out.
Choice band Dragonite appreciates Inner Focus as its ability, since it can't really benefit from HDB or Roost anyway, and that prevents Lando-T's Intimidate from checking it.
Dusk Mage Necrozma
formerly XenonHero126
The point is that if you force a switch and predict well you can get some recovery on your free turn, then switch out.
Good point, I’ll try that.
On paper, that is Smogon's tiering philosophy. In practice, we have almost never banned moves, items or abilities merely for being "uncompetitive". We ban them for being broken. There are numerous examples of "uncompetitive" strategies that were considered fine (and are still legal in old metas) up until they started winning games by themselves. One of them (SwagPlay) was unbanned after several nerfs placed it under the threshold of broken.
Cloyster with King's Rock was a legit threat, able to 6-0 teams with a single lucky flinch. Glowbro hasn't proven itself to be anywhere near as powerful, it's one of many 30% winrate gimmicks in the game.
---
Speaking of cheese, I've had a lot of fun with this XY-era TankChomp set:
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Endure
By switching out Protect, you are essentially trading one turn protection + 6.25% damage on poisoned opponents for 29% damage (1/8 + 1/6) against users of contact moves. Pads are annoying but they're still a fairly niche item on Melm + Kart
Last edited:
I kinda think that Kings Rock Cloyster is genuinely less uncompetitive than QC. The chance was much higher, making it more consistent/less RNG reliant and if you saw a Cloyster back then, you knew that the chance for KR was high. QC can just pop up unexpected and has a 20% chance to ruin your day