-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2024 Smog Awards!
Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
Being genuine, I never understood the "removing dynamax will scare people who want to play smogon because it deviates from card" argument
Like, I get the fear, but also when I was first seeing smogon, I wasn't looking for a true card experience, because I didn't like it. I was looking at it because people told me it had more balanced competitive and better tiering than gamefreaks "lol good luck idiot" attitude in online battles (except VGC, but VGC doesn't actually happen in my country and it's a limited event anyways).
Quite a few other people seem to think the same, that smogon and showdown is just... Its own thing, already separated from the games anyway. They aren't really expecting fidelity, rather tiers and balance.
Anyways, dumb personal rant over. I really hope a decision comes soon so we can start looking at pokemon that may be too broken. Also seismitoad looks more popular than before. Been using one to stop the absolute hell that's fishous rend and it's been working pretty well. I'll share my team soon
Like, I get the fear, but also when I was first seeing smogon, I wasn't looking for a true card experience, because I didn't like it. I was looking at it because people told me it had more balanced competitive and better tiering than gamefreaks "lol good luck idiot" attitude in online battles (except VGC, but VGC doesn't actually happen in my country and it's a limited event anyways).
Quite a few other people seem to think the same, that smogon and showdown is just... Its own thing, already separated from the games anyway. They aren't really expecting fidelity, rather tiers and balance.
Anyways, dumb personal rant over. I really hope a decision comes soon so we can start looking at pokemon that may be too broken. Also seismitoad looks more popular than before. Been using one to stop the absolute hell that's fishous rend and it's been working pretty well. I'll share my team soon
More custom spreads:
Working on posting sun after lunch :)
252/44/212+ avoids ohko from clef flamethrower after rocks
alternately run 252/120/136+ to avoid ohko from clef flamethrower w/ no hazards
alternately run 252/120/136+ to avoid ohko from clef flamethrower w/ no hazards
252/136/120+ avoid 2hko from clef t-bolt
unfort not even max spdef can avoid 2hko after rocks
252/196/60+ avoids 2hko from dragapult d-meteor
unfort not even max spdef can avoid 2hko after rocks
252/196/60+ avoids 2hko from dragapult d-meteor
Why don't you just make all the decisions then? Why is there even a thread? Do you represent Smogon and all of its policies and interests? Not everyone has the exact same philosophy as you dude. You seem to think I am oblivious to the fact that Smogon is a competitively minded site and is about creating a "playable" Pokemon metagame. I'm not. Whatever you think or not, this is all still based on the games. If you start talking about changing accuracy on moves and other such bullshit people would riot. Why? Because it wouldn't be playing the same game and Smogon would be seen as a joke. There IS a balance between making a competitive environment and becoming too far removed from the games. At least from Smogon's actions in the past, that has always seemed to somewhat be a priority.
I have always enjoyed playing OU on Smogon, and I will continue to do so. No I don't play constantly because I have a life which I do nothing with. I've been around baby. I played back on Netbattle and Shoddy and whatever the fuck they used to call it. Back when Jolteon was still viable in OU.
The key difference is that banning Dynamaxing doesn't actually change the game at all. It's no different than you and your opponent agreeing to not use Mewtwo or Double Team. Changing the accuracy of moves is actively modifying the game.
I agree and I am pro Dynamax ban. I was just using that as an example that there are things that people wouldn't be willing to do in terms of changing the game. I was defending my point that Smogon does still try to go as much with the games as possible.
I feel my point has been made and at this point its just talking in circles. I'm for a Dynamax ban but have also understood the caution towards banning it and do believe it should be preserved in some way in its own ladder or whatever. I only responded because people had to get Sassy (
)and something about Pokemon forum drama just reminds me of my childhood. <3 xD ^_^
I mean its a beaten record but yeah, dyna has to go lol. Whole ladder is brainless exca sash lead hyper offense ditto bullshit with lucha and gyrados. If you play anything with a semblance of originality wrap it up since Gyra will just get a free turn at some point start getting ko + free ddance. Ive tried a myriad of builds and only one that is solid against the ladder is still the basic ass sand balance gyra trash.
Youre pigeonholed into running such centralizing things,while also having to make stupid plays regularly. So many matches literally come down to speed ties its hilarious. Get rid of dyna and I think this meta can be interesting, especially when some of HA get released. But as of now just netdeck a team and fish. Thats all you can do.
Despite that I do think some mons will be absurd in the future once things settle. Cinderace is already a monster without its HA. Court change is such a silly move and pyro ball nukes. If only it had perfect acc :/
Youre pigeonholed into running such centralizing things,while also having to make stupid plays regularly. So many matches literally come down to speed ties its hilarious. Get rid of dyna and I think this meta can be interesting, especially when some of HA get released. But as of now just netdeck a team and fish. Thats all you can do.
Despite that I do think some mons will be absurd in the future once things settle. Cinderace is already a monster without its HA. Court change is such a silly move and pyro ball nukes. If only it had perfect acc :/
I am going to add my voice to this mess despite not ever really posting, lol.
There have been a lot of smart posts on the ban side and I think the anti-ban crowd are missing what I think is one of the most crucial points of the ban argument:
Dynamax has game-breaking lasting effects that remain in play after the actual Dynamax ends. Regardless of you opinion of the 3 turns of Dynamax itself, in order to say that Dynamax is not ban-worthy you have to be able to justify the lingering stat boosts being balanced, and I think it is impossible to do that.
If you Dynamax with good timing and some actual thought behind it, you are extremely difficult to KO while it is active, and this gives so many Pokemon opportunities to accrue free stat boosts in crucial places (sometimes boosts that the pokemon wouldn't ordinarily get access to) IN ADDITION TO dealing near Z-move scale damage. The state that - for example - Gyrados and Hawlucha are in the turn after their Dynamax ends is an end-game state. In normal gameplay, Pokemon are not able to set up in that way without significant support and prior good play, but Dynamax allows you to skip that whole game and jump right into the point where you are buffed up and ready to sweep. Again, this is all in addition to having 3 turns prior to wreak havoc with your Z-moves.
How can the above be justified as anything but un-competitive? Just look solely at Dynamax's lingering effects, then I don't think you even have to begin discussing the balance of the Dynamax state itself; it already ban-worthy.
I do think Dynamax has potential as a competitive and balanced mechanic with significant tweaking, but its current implementation is busted as hell.
There have been a lot of smart posts on the ban side and I think the anti-ban crowd are missing what I think is one of the most crucial points of the ban argument:
Dynamax has game-breaking lasting effects that remain in play after the actual Dynamax ends. Regardless of you opinion of the 3 turns of Dynamax itself, in order to say that Dynamax is not ban-worthy you have to be able to justify the lingering stat boosts being balanced, and I think it is impossible to do that.
If you Dynamax with good timing and some actual thought behind it, you are extremely difficult to KO while it is active, and this gives so many Pokemon opportunities to accrue free stat boosts in crucial places (sometimes boosts that the pokemon wouldn't ordinarily get access to) IN ADDITION TO dealing near Z-move scale damage. The state that - for example - Gyrados and Hawlucha are in the turn after their Dynamax ends is an end-game state. In normal gameplay, Pokemon are not able to set up in that way without significant support and prior good play, but Dynamax allows you to skip that whole game and jump right into the point where you are buffed up and ready to sweep. Again, this is all in addition to having 3 turns prior to wreak havoc with your Z-moves.
How can the above be justified as anything but un-competitive? Just look solely at Dynamax's lingering effects, then I don't think you even have to begin discussing the balance of the Dynamax state itself; it already ban-worthy.
I do think Dynamax has potential as a competitive and balanced mechanic with significant tweaking, but its current implementation is busted as hell.
Points against a ban:
Some people WANT that so they can keep their old strategies and teams, they don't want change as it's stressful for them. I can't transfer my lv100 Starmie I've used since Pokemon Emerald but I think I've had more fun being forced to make a new team than Sun/Moon where I mostly used my old team.
- It's only been a few (2?) weeks, it's not enough time to decide anything. Let it play out for a while.
- There are multiple strategies to waste your opponent's Dynamax, many of which are existing strategies (e.g. Protect).
- You can't switch out without losing Dynamax, so it's a free switch in to something which walls it.
- There is a variety of ways to use Dynamax and Pokemon to use it on (e.g. setting Weather).
- If you let them set up then you would probably be losing anyway, Dynamax alone isn't enough to OHKO everything.
- Strategies shouldn't be exactly the same between generations, things need to be shaken up.
Some people WANT that so they can keep their old strategies and teams, they don't want change as it's stressful for them. I can't transfer my lv100 Starmie I've used since Pokemon Emerald but I think I've had more fun being forced to make a new team than Sun/Moon where I mostly used my old team.
The same meta? We’re missing half of the SuMo OU, lol.
Regardless, Protect is not good Dynamax counterplay. The moves still connect and the opponent still boosts, so they’ve ultimately still gotten what they’ve wanted, and once the dyna is over you’re still staring down a +2 +2 Gyarados or whatever
I'm sure it won't be missing for long, there's no point playing a Sword Sheild regional dex without Dynamax. There'll be people wanting the full national dex.
Like I could say that Gyarados won't be boosting it's attack under Dynamax, only setting Rain.
Maybe start using something that resists flying and fighting if the boosts are troubling you, it's only flying that boosts speed and fighting that boosts attack. Poison boosts special attack (I think?) but not seen that yet.
It's part of the picture, there's a whole set of strategies you can use. I'm not saying that any one thing is a silver bullet so let's not nitpick examples.
Like I could say that Gyarados won't be boosting it's attack under Dynamax, only setting Rain.
Maybe start using something that resists flying and fighting if the boosts are troubling you, it's only flying that boosts speed and fighting that boosts attack. Poison boosts special attack (I think?) but not seen that yet.
Is Aegislash non-dynamaxed the best wall against Gyarados? It resist flying, water, grass and is immune to fighting, which cover all the offensive moves. Furthermore, it doesn't need to leave shield mode to raise its own stats afaik, and can stall out 2 of the 3 dynamax turns.
Have you played any ladder?
Not even 1/8 the teams are "brainless exca sash lead hyper offense ditto bullshit with lucha and gyrados".
RN, it just feels like you're taking it from what other people are saying except blowing it up, because there is a lot of other teams running around that don't resemble anything like what you said. And what kind of stupid plays are you talking about?
Sweeping? That's not a stupid play. I've been rather successful with weather teams that definitely don't run hyper offense bullshit.
Aegislash does not resist Water, and Gyarados doesn't get any Fighting-type moves. On top of that, Aegislash has to be wary of Earthquake and Max Quake as an extension of that as well. Aegislash is a great check to Pokemon like Hawlucha and Reuniclus, but it really isn't a good check to Gyarados.
Lingering stat boosts have always existed. It's called setting up. And unlike normal setting up, it can't be repeated if you get phased, hazed, forced out, or had your weather/terrain changed.
Personally, I like leech seeding my opponent's dynamax.
If you dynamax at a good time ... Isn't the fact that there are good and bad times an indicator of competitiveness itself? If it was uncompetitive, it would not matter. Requiring the additional skill in choosing a good moment should be applauded as a new competitive element.
Ban dynamax if that is what needs to be done, but don't ignore possible benefits in a knee-jerk reaction. After all, recently we still thought dynamaxing let you keep the boosts from being choiced. What else don't we know?
Personally, I like leech seeding my opponent's dynamax.
If you dynamax at a good time ... Isn't the fact that there are good and bad times an indicator of competitiveness itself? If it was uncompetitive, it would not matter. Requiring the additional skill in choosing a good moment should be applauded as a new competitive element.
Ban dynamax if that is what needs to be done, but don't ignore possible benefits in a knee-jerk reaction. After all, recently we still thought dynamaxing let you keep the boosts from being choiced. What else don't we know?
How much does a max quake do to an Aegislash? Besides, two of the turns will be stalled out due to Kings Shield. I know max moves dont necessarily make contact, but its still a protected turn or two. KS, filler and hope not to die by those 140 defenses, and a second KS.
I would really appreciate to back-up these arguments with replays showing how dynamax is countered. You don't bring any conclusion or method about how to beat dynamax, you keep asking the community, as an entity, to find a solution. We've been looking for solutions. Ditto is on top 10 usage. I've been trying to use Red Card Ditto, in order to counter Hawlucha, switching it on a resisted CC. Hell, I've tried Power Swap Shuckle. It just doesn't work. There's no new anti-dynamax other than the 3 signature moves from the 3 Ubers. I really wish I was wrong, but dynamax is unhealthy and it must go.
You really underestimate the bulkiness that comes from doubling your HP. A simple resist is not cutting it. Corviknight dynamaxed can stall out and beat all Rotoms. Hawlucha can survive a hit from Aegislash and beat it with Fire Punch. Gyarados survives Thunderbolt from Specs Dragapult. They're all beating their counters because of dynamax.
LOL what ladder are you playing and whats your ranking atm. Hardly amazing ranking wise but 80 gxe in a relatively new meta shows I at least know what Im doing. Its definitely the prevalent team build. Its either that or some fat shit that gets 6-0 by anything that can setup behind a sub (cough Corvi).
Ive been running some janky dual weather for giggles and I know its the prevalent style up there because the last 20ish matches 80%of them have been lead drill, me dynamax g charizard. Break sash, gmax move chip. They die. They either go for tomb, or rocks. Rinse repeat. I aint parroting shit. Why would I lie?
Attachments
Some of my own opinions against yours:
1. Sure, it's only been two weeks or so and we can try this out for as long as people hope. But the thing is we all know nothing is going to change. Dynamaxing will always be an overcentralizing mechanic and it will always be broken. So many good players with large competitive experiences have tried for two weeks and still haven't found even one reliable way to deal with dynamaxes.
2. Like many of the previous comments suggested, these "multiple strategies" you mentioned don't even do a good job at it. Even with Protect/Detect/Baneful Bunker/King' Shield or whatever, Dynamaxed pokemons still get all the boosts and weather/terrain changes. You literally need a pokemon who's able to tank at least 1 direct hit and 2 indirect hits through Protect under terrains and weathers in order to, well, not getting your team swept. People can, of course, bring out their Dive Baneful Bunker Toxapex to wall Gyarados and stuffs, but if that's what the majority of the players is gonna do from now on I would honestly die from laughing.
3. "Walls it" is a pretty interesting way to say it there. "Walls them" is a more accurate way of putting it. You have a "free switch in" every match to wall guys like Gyarados, lucha, Excadrill, Togekiss, Hydreigon, Dragapult or blah blah blah blah, while they are getting crazy boosts. Maybe the "free" switch in is not as free as you might think it is.
4. This actually goes against yourself because Dynamaxing does way more than it should.
5. If you think a +1 Atk &+1 Spd Gyarados clicking Waterfall is equally threatening as a +1 Atk & +1 Spd Dynamaxed Gyarados spamming Max Airstream/Max Geyser, I really don't know what to tell you. And of course Dynamax alone isn't enough to OHKO everything, or otherwise it would be banned the day Sw/Sh is released. But it's SO close to that right now and that's why we're having a discussion.
6. Sure, I agree. But some sort of balancing needs to be done before adding a mechanic to the game. Changes are desired, but it does not mean we need to embrace every change if it's unhealthy to the metagame.
7. If Dynamax is gone, the meta will still be different enough from US/UM. We have a meta where Land-T and Heatran don't exist anymore and so are many other previous threats. We don't need a busted mechanic just to show how different we are compared to previous gens.
I don't know if you're blind or just a troll who can't read.
oh right you're pro dynamax. the only thing you can see is the dynamax button.
All I've been doing is addressing the "arguments" made by pro-dynamaxers.
lol no
That's essentially the equivalent of setting rain with the move Rain Dance, except Rain Dance has only 1 PP. With powerful attacks and stat boosts that linger, Dynamaxing is tailor made for sweepers. Why would you blow such power on team support?
You realize that there are only 13 Pokemon in existence that resist Hawlucha's dual STABs, and we only have access to three of them? Aegislash, Rotom, and Rotom-Fan.
I want you to look at the current PokeDex for Sw/Sh. I think you'll notice that over half of that Dex has been deleted, including former OU staples like Landorus-T, Tangrowth, Garchomp, Ultra Beasts, all that stuff. This changes building drastically as players don't have access to those mons anymore and have to use other choices. Yeah we still have good old TTar + Exca teams (which are even better with Dynamax anyway so they wouldn't phase out and they've existed since fucking Gen 5 lol) and FerroPex but teams are still pretty different with the new mons and builders will have to adapt to that. Even with Dynamaxing banned the meta will still be new and fresh, and imo way more interesting than shitty players being carried by Gyarados every game because they decided to click their big red button. We don't have to adhere to the game's central gimmick especially when it's one this obscenely overpowered and unbalanced.
Luckily points like these probably won't get too many reqs in the upcoming suspect because I honestly worry for the future of Smogon tiers if these posts ever make any traction lmao. Dynamax is busted as hell, get it out.
One side lacks intelligence and does not understand what makes something broken and/or does not understand what counter arguments are. Yes, it is the anti-ban side that lacks intelligence.
All you've been doing is talking shit about pro-dynamax people
Which proves my point
sorry if I word anything badly in advance.
1. We'd need to find something completly revolutionary to change dynamax's position in the meta imo. In fact, the more we dig, the more we find that moves and items were changed to make sure that dynamax is kept on the field and isn't cheesed out (weight being ignored, red card not working, phasing not working). It makes some sense in doubles but in 6v6 singles it starts to be a problem
2. many mentioned before, but all the strategies you've mentioned are either unviable because they made sure that dynamax kept its momentum agaisnt them or just really extreme (2 turn moves) that sounds more like desesperation than actual counterplay tbh. If you do know something thats a hard counter, please tell us, this isn't meant to be sarcastic I really mean it.
3. the fact that gmax moves have big bp and will still get the boosts means that the only real free switches is for pokemon that are completly immune. anything else will still get hurt and help the dynamax pokemon to keep boosting. Not only that, but we have to consider they run multiple options that are still beneficial to them and can still cripple pokemon that would normally resist because their power is insane and they get 3 turns to do it.
4. I don't really understand this argument, sorry.
5. But dynamax set up is different from most normal set ups. You either have moves that deal no damage and raise stats (cm, dd) or moves that deal medium damage with a small boost (power-up punch). Dynamax not only gives you 90+ bp in all moves, guarantee boost, unless you hit a target with immunity which isn't common, but also increases your HP so that pokemon that could usually be checked now have the advantage of taking more hits to KO, even when hit with stab super effective, which in turn leads so that they have more safe turns to keep boosting while you're sacking 2 to 3 pokemon just to chip away a dynamax.
6. Everyone mentioned the dexit already, but there was a major change in various pokemon's movesets with removal and additions. Return, hidden power and pursuit are completly gone, the new pokemon exist, we have new items that can change how useful trick rooms and setting rocks/spikes is, etc.
- Status