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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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it could theorerically mean november. "winter" stretches as far back as mid-november in marketing language sometimes
Thank you very much for this set, it's just the right amount of grass for my theme team! It just hard wallsso much.I'd like to put a spotlight on arboliva. I dont think I've ever seen this pokemon considered for OU, even at release, however let me make a case for its usefulness in the absence of other bulky grass types *cough**cough*. Almost all sets use seed sower. Its a cool ability, not bad, but rillaboom does grassy terrain better, and since this isnt an offensive set that can outdamage the recovery, giving the opponent passive healing isnt helpful either.
In which case i present Harvest Arboliva
View attachment 560445
Ahem wrong one sorry.
@ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
Tera Type: water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed/ substitute
- Strength Sap
- Hyper Voice/ energy ball
- Earth Power
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva: 143-168 (39.7 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva: 169-201 (46.9 - 55.8%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva: 181-214 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva in Rain: 168-198 (46.6 - 55%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
(Calculator doesnt know how to factor in berries, these are never a 2hko)
Normal typing doesnt do us much favours here, aisde from ghost immunity, ie poltergeist. without it youd take on zamazenta but alas. strength sap is the biggest part of this set as it pushes these pokemon well out of ko range and buys extra turns for harvest to kick in. leech seed allows you to 1v1 gliscor. Earth power smacks kingambit for 55% and can hit gholdengo in a pinch although thats not a favourable matchup. Hyper voice is interesting as i see a lot of substitute in this meta and it deals a lot of damage through sub. Energy ball is an alternative if youd rather break subs than hit through them, but its not ideal, hyper voice hits most things harder.
Yes i only saved one replay. I'm busy and lazy, but this isnt a rare occurence, you can take my word for it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1964830671
not an A rank pokemon by any means but certainly has a place in OU VR for the time being
I take the 2023 part to mean actual 2023. If it had a good shot of releasing in 2024 I think they could have said several other things to convey that. That plus the fact the current VGC rule set shifts in December makes me think the shift will be to allow the DLC2 Pokémon in. If I were to make a bet it would be mid December that the DLC drops.
Regulation E doesn't end until January 2nd 2024, if we were to take VGC Regulations as the means to knowing when they happen, we'd still have to wait until January 3rd at minimum.
Question for the people voting against suspecting / banning Gliscor: how do you deal with this thing?
You might be able to Defog against Gliscor's Spikes without Gholdengo in the mix, but at best that leaves you in a stalemate unless you're running Ice Tera Blast for some reason. Neither of you can do anything against one another, meaning that neither side is making any progress and it turns into a game of chicken. I suppose you can outlast Protect's PP thanks to Pressure, but Poison Heal alone heals titanic chunks of any Brave Bird damage it was dealt away. Every other hazard remover either is slammed by Earthquake or ruined by Toxic. Corviknight (and the even nicher Galarian Weezing) is it. For a utility mon that's so good at halting your progress, it's extremely good at forcing progress.
You might be able to Defog against Gliscor's Spikes without Gholdengo in the mix, but at best that leaves you in a stalemate unless you're running Ice Tera Blast for some reason. Neither of you can do anything against one another, meaning that neither side is making any progress and it turns into a game of chicken. I suppose you can outlast Protect's PP thanks to Pressure, but Poison Heal alone heals titanic chunks of any Brave Bird damage it was dealt away. Every other hazard remover either is slammed by Earthquake or ruined by Toxic. Corviknight (and the even nicher Galarian Weezing) is it. For a utility mon that's so good at halting your progress, it's extremely good at forcing progress.
Gliscor can't do anything to Air Balloon Glimmora, which is by no means a common set but still a perfectly fine one. Greninja gets it out with the threat of a Battle Bond sweep. A-Ninetales also forces it out while potentially giving you Aurora Veil for your troubles. Gliscor can't deal with the latter two unless it uses Tera, and forcing Tera from your opponent is a form of progress. G-Slowking can also pack Ice Beam for it and live an Earthquake.
I'm really sorry bc I don't wanna be that guy, but I'm on holidays and have just skimmed through the thread. Did a new survey drop or why is everyone dropping their ratings on certain mons?
a survey's about to drop and i suppose we all want to get our opinions out before the voting starts so we have the highest chance of influencing people to vote one way or another (everyone please vote 5 on gambit, i don't even care about the other stuff as long as you vote 5 on gambit, we need to get it right this time)
Alolan Ninetales is restricted to Hyper Offensive teams (which the fact that they are at the forefront of the meta is not a good sign) and Air Balloon variants of anything are reliant on maintaining their Air Balloon over the course of a game vs Gliscor, lest it get popped and they either Tera to avoid or resist Earthquake or just get throttled by it.
Greninja and Galarian Slowking are just about it for answers that aren't restricted to one team archetype, of which both of those Pokemon can only be pivoted in thanks to their fragility or weakness to Earthquake. This thing is ludicrously constricting in the Team Builder and I believe it's too strong at forcing progress while also halting progress made by the opponent.
me when zapdos gets defog and i switch in, take like 35%, click recover, nasty plot, recover, start threatening their entire team
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ghost Gholdengo: 154-183 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
which is already unreliable because 70% accuracy btw. you could go offensive which would be a much better matchup, at the consequence of you zapdos being mid
252 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ghost Gholdengo: 189-223 (50 - 58.9%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
same with moltres but with tera
"erm actually tera means it is weak to spin"
imo if you want to use ghold mainly as something for hazard stack, running tera ghost is the play like 80% of the time. steel causes like almost all of the problems with its matchups in this way. Lose EQ weakness, Fire weakness, etc.
ghost isn't the best defensive typing but all your ghold has to do in this case is do that job properly
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ghost Gholdengo: 127-150 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- 26.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (you can also run your own HDB if you want to make it more consistent against opposing hstack)
and now that mon also can't defog on it, it also loses to nasty plot recover set.
ok, so you uturn out on it, sure. like corviknight can, but i digress. pursuit doesn't exist so gholdengo just switches out, and then comes back in when moltres does.
so what else could feasibly get defog and beat this set? lando t? which would also get owned by the same set?
232+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ghost Gholdengo: 144-169 (38 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
even adamant lando t becomes setup fodder to, by the way, the exact same set ive been talking about this entire time. one single set that is viable RIGHT NOW, and is also viable against all of the hazard control. right now.
with tera + its movepool + adequate stats, gholdengo will always be able to craft a set to beat, if not basically all hazard control in the tier at the same time, at least most of it, making it at best a toss up with gholdengo around.
it is NOT a distribution problem. It is a Gholdengo problem. sometimes you simply do have to ban good glue pokemon because what they do for the tier is also really bad, which is unfortunate, but we don't control what they give us
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ghost Gholdengo: 154-183 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
which is already unreliable because 70% accuracy btw. you could go offensive which would be a much better matchup, at the consequence of you zapdos being mid
252 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ghost Gholdengo: 189-223 (50 - 58.9%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
same with moltres but with tera
"erm actually tera means it is weak to spin"
imo if you want to use ghold mainly as something for hazard stack, running tera ghost is the play like 80% of the time. steel causes like almost all of the problems with its matchups in this way. Lose EQ weakness, Fire weakness, etc.
ghost isn't the best defensive typing but all your ghold has to do in this case is do that job properly
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ghost Gholdengo: 127-150 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- 26.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (you can also run your own HDB if you want to make it more consistent against opposing hstack)
and now that mon also can't defog on it, it also loses to nasty plot recover set.
ok, so you uturn out on it, sure. like corviknight can, but i digress. pursuit doesn't exist so gholdengo just switches out, and then comes back in when moltres does.
so what else could feasibly get defog and beat this set? lando t? which would also get owned by the same set?
232+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ghost Gholdengo: 144-169 (38 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
even adamant lando t becomes setup fodder to, by the way, the exact same set ive been talking about this entire time. one single set that is viable RIGHT NOW, and is also viable against all of the hazard control. right now.
with tera + its movepool + adequate stats, gholdengo will always be able to craft a set to beat, if not basically all hazard control in the tier at the same time, at least most of it, making it at best a toss up with gholdengo around.
it is NOT a distribution problem. It is a Gholdengo problem. sometimes you simply do have to ban good glue pokemon because what they do for the tier is also really bad, which is unfortunate, but we don't control what they give us
tera is like 90% of the problem with gholdengo but it's not on the table so
imagine if gholdengo simply remained weak to great tusk stab eq/headlong rush
If you live in Canada, winter is anywhere between October and april (sometimes even may or September) TT-TT
I have the month wrong, but the point still stands imo. Reg E started the month after the DLC so if E ends and F begins in January than it stands to reason that some time in December DLC 2 will drop. The middle of the month makes the most sense since it will be the same as DLC 1 and because I imagine work flows slows down at end of year and it makes the most sense to launch a large update before that happens (assuming it does).
Might as well post my own thoughts. I've got nothing better to do
4/5: If there's any pokemon to fight one billion lions, I'd place my bets into this one. Imagine 1015 fallen allies. Jokes aside, this guy's a real ass. I don't think it's a brave statement to say almost nobody likes kingambit endgames. It feels like a shitty comeback mechanic straight out of smash ultimate dlc. There's way too much variance when it comes to how he ruins your life and guessing the wrong item or tera type once can be lights out right then and there. I find it's far too volatile and ultimately a very frustrating pokemon to deal. Tera compounds this issue ofc but that's not on the table rn.
4/5: I find gholdengo vs gliscor to be a real "chicken or the egg" scenario. Who is the true evil of OU? Based on this score, you can probably infer where I land on this issue. Not only is hazard removal limited, but gholdengo keeps hazards on the field like no other. Sure, you could say that the options aren't *that* much more plentiful, but the difference is that all those old gens were before every pokemon ever learned spikes and stealth rocks. I feel like society being forced to run bulky cinderace is just a little bit damning but maybe that's just me. Without the one percenter that is gholdengo, we wouldn't be so hard pressed to get rid of the three layers of spikes+rocks that plague us now. Not to mention that gholdengo is just really fucking good even outside of its hazard stack nonesense. It also looooves tusk not running knock off as much as it used to, air balloon stocks keep rising. Literally. Anyways, I think it's definitely in our best interest to suspect this guy. Not like keeping hazards off has gotten any easier rofl.
3/5: Another volatile pokemon. It's an excellent pokemon no doubt, but I almost wanna call it matchup-fishy in a way? Like, it feels like you either beat it or you don't. There are definitely "answers" to it but they often feel shakey. Once it gets going to feel impossible to stop, but honestly I don't find myself getting shit on by it. I'm leaning towards 4/5 but I'll put 3/5 for the time being.
4/5: You gotta love it when pokemon show up week one, get insane amounts of hype, fall off the face of the earth (roaring mid), and then return doing the exact same thing as before but now it's suddenly broken again. What knock off does to a mf. Not much to say. Try beating booster attack roaring moon with one dragon dance (you can't)
3/5, could go to 4/5: The endless. It's like gen 3 skarmory but again more evil. Unkillable wall that can force progress or get free spikes anyways. He's definitely a problem, the last thing we need in our lives is another spikes setter, but I feel like if gholdengo is banished then it'll feel more manageable. Maybe. I could be totally off the mark with that. Really, I need him gone so I can use non tusk/gliscor ground types.
2/5: I'm sorry I don't see it. I'm not trying to say everyone else is wrong and genius harmless_xd (record topping mid 1600s) has cracked the code but I just don't find it as problematic as others. It's kinda toxic but it's let down by its speed and lack of immediate threat, not to mention it's screwed over by encore.
1/5: this shit is monotype #freefluttermane
4/5: If there's any pokemon to fight one billion lions, I'd place my bets into this one. Imagine 1015 fallen allies. Jokes aside, this guy's a real ass. I don't think it's a brave statement to say almost nobody likes kingambit endgames. It feels like a shitty comeback mechanic straight out of smash ultimate dlc. There's way too much variance when it comes to how he ruins your life and guessing the wrong item or tera type once can be lights out right then and there. I find it's far too volatile and ultimately a very frustrating pokemon to deal. Tera compounds this issue ofc but that's not on the table rn. 4/5: I find gholdengo vs gliscor to be a real "chicken or the egg" scenario. Who is the true evil of OU? Based on this score, you can probably infer where I land on this issue. Not only is hazard removal limited, but gholdengo keeps hazards on the field like no other. Sure, you could say that the options aren't *that* much more plentiful, but the difference is that all those old gens were before every pokemon ever learned spikes and stealth rocks. I feel like society being forced to run bulky cinderace is just a little bit damning but maybe that's just me. Without the one percenter that is gholdengo, we wouldn't be so hard pressed to get rid of the three layers of spikes+rocks that plague us now. Not to mention that gholdengo is just really fucking good even outside of its hazard stack nonesense. It also looooves tusk not running knock off as much as it used to, air balloon stocks keep rising. Literally. Anyways, I think it's definitely in our best interest to suspect this guy. Not like keeping hazards off has gotten any easier rofl. 3/5: Another volatile pokemon. It's an excellent pokemon no doubt, but I almost wanna call it matchup-fishy in a way? Like, it feels like you either beat it or you don't. There are definitely "answers" to it but they often feel shakey. Once it gets going to feel impossible to stop, but honestly I don't find myself getting shit on by it. I'm leaning towards 4/5 but I'll put 3/5 for the time being. 4/5: You gotta love it when pokemon show up week one, get insane amounts of hype, fall off the face of the earth (roaring mid), and then return doing the exact same thing as before but now it's suddenly broken again. What knock off does to a mf. Not much to say. Try beating booster attack roaring moon with one dragon dance (you can't) 3/5, could go to 4/5: The endless. It's like gen 3 skarmory but again more evil. Unkillable wall that can force progress or get free spikes anyways. He's definitely a problem, the last thing we need in our lives is another spikes setter, but I feel like if gholdengo is banished then it'll feel more manageable. Maybe. I could be totally off the mark with that. Really, I need him gone so I can use non tusk/gliscor ground types. 2/5: I'm sorry I don't see it. I'm not trying to say everyone else is wrong and genius harmless_xd (record topping mid 1600s) has cracked the code but I just don't find it as problematic as others. It's kinda toxic but it's let down by its speed and lack of immediate threat, not to mention it's screwed over by encore. 1/5: this shit is monotype #freefluttermane
Might as well post my own thoughts. I've got nothing better to do
Please do not rate Gliscor lower on a tiering survey about the current metagame because there's a chance it might be less problematic in a theoretical metagame without a Pokémon that's currently allowed! Not only is it not what the tiering survey is measuring, it's also how we get results like DNB Gambit! "I'm voting not to ban this broken Pokémon because I think sometching else should be banned instead" please do not do this!
#VoteGliscor5
Call me crazy but Darkrai deserves a shot in OU. You can't rely on Hypnosis in general and it's getting outsped by Booster Speed Mons as well as Dragapult and Zamazenta. It should at least be tried in OU to see.
Obviously, Free Volcarona. I think it was one of the better mons in the tier for sure especially when it comes to abusing tera but I thought it was manageable most the type, specifically Flame Body spam would be so helpful now vs things like Knock Off Roaring Moon.
chillax, I'm not good or patient enough to get reqs. I also acknowledged that it could still be broken even after a hypothetical gholdengo ban. I don't think me specifically picking between a 3 or a 4 is going to change the outcome of a gliscor suspect. For your sake, I will officially bump it up to a 4/5 because lol infinite hp glitch.
Also do not free volcarona, we have enough on our plate. The last thing we need right now is the damn match up moth. Besides, we have a product for people who want to punish roaring moon knock off called moltres and zapdos.
Point is, I think for the time being we're better off trying to clean up the mess that is the current metagame rather than unbanning shit.
Might as well post my own thoughts. I've got nothing better to do
I'm sad that so many people dislikes Gliscor. I also don't understand why people give it grief over the state of hazards. I've been seeing complaints over Gholdengo and the state of hazards way before Gliscor ever appeared. Plus, I find Glimmora to be far more hazardous for the tier (har). As in, if hazards are the issue, that is where I think we should start.
Gliscor basically just accentuates the hazard problem tenfold since he can setup any hazard you want/need him to (safe from webs), and that he's EXTREMELY consitent with fucking over any remover not named corv (Corv is rather passive in the face of half the meta, hell any powerful special attackerjust blows it up in 2 turns)
I understand. I'm not gonna pretend like Gliscor isn't the best at the hazards game. But if action is being taken, Glimorra should be right up there, before even Hammurot.
Glimmora is probably one of the least problematic setters we have out here. no priority, pretty bad bulk, usually runs sr and not spikes bc it tends to be unable to set more than 1 spike layer, toxic spikes only work vs physical attackers and are both a free entry to gliscor and even easier to remove bc of iron moth n sneasler running around, even with mortal spin its a pretty bad spinner. Its not a bad mon, I love running it but to act like its the biggest problem when it doesnt even make use of spikes well compared to every other setter
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