The Uber Metagame: a Fun "Change of Pace"

[ultimifier]

it can shadow ball and then extreme speed. Meaning that deoxys s is 2hkod. So deoxys-e has 2 good options. SR then extreme speed or extreme speed then extreme speed. Either way, no team is at a huge advantage, the team with deoxys=e is at a very slight advantage

 

[tripe]

The only thing is that Wobbuffet will put up Safeguard when facing a Giratina, so Lucario or another sweeper can come in without fear.

I don't see too many safeguarding wobbuffet, they're mainly carrying tickle. Lucario can't take an hp fire from the origin form anyways, especially with sunlight up.

 

[mudkip72]

I don't see too many safeguarding wobbuffet, they're mainly carrying tickle. Lucario can't take an hp fire from the origin form anyways, especially with sunlight up.

I don't think people would switch Lucario into the Origon Forme anyway, since the standard CMer carries Thunder or Aura Sphere usually, and physical attackers carry EQ.

Reguarding Wobbuffet, 60% carry Safeguard while only 30% use Tickle according to the July stats, so Giratina (another forme) can easily be set-up upon by a Lucario or something.

About the Origon Forme, Wobb is typically going to use Encore before switching out, so using HP Fire or some other attack is out of the question.

 

[Anachronism]

I think that the problem with manaphy is that it is just plain weak when compared to either kyogre ( for statupping or support sets), or palkia (for all-out attacking sets), afterall, modest manaphy at +2 is still a point less powerful than modest +1 kyogre, not to mention the rain boost kyogre gets. The extra speed doesn't really make up for it. If you decide not to boost, then palkia's better defensive and offensive stats as well as better typing and stabs make it a clear favorite. I could only see someone choosing manaphy if they are more worried about darkrai than they are about kyoge for whatever reason (which isn't the case for most teams). You need to somehow abuse Manaphy's ability or you are just using a worse kyogre/palkia.

Mew is sort of in the same position that Manaphy is in. For any boosting sets you are probably better off using Mewtwo, even though Mew has nasty plot. Once again, Mew and Mewtwo have about equal power levels at +2 and +1, respectively. Attacking sets that don't boost are obviously completely outclassed by Deoxys formes and/ or Mewtwo again. This relegates Mew to support and baton passing sets, especially ones where it gets to make use of stealth rock. Once again, you better make use of mew's ability or movepool.

Ho-oh obviously has the stealth rock problem that makes it needy. It also has its main stab constantly weakened by rain, which isn't fun. Even the huge burn rate is really devalued by the fact that ubers is almost entirely specail, and you would rather have paralysis anyway.

Giratina is pretty much only seen on stall teams, and it is even being replaced there to a certain extent by the origin forme.

These Uber UUs are not used for a reason, so in my mind the most undervalued uber is probably Latios. The guy hits like a truck! He is able to 2hko wobbuffet (ohko with draco meteor and sr) and gains many other kos that Latias misses out on such as a OHKO on scizor at +1 with thunder and a OHKO on +1 Giratina-O.

People don't really have any business switching into specs water spouts anyway. Just attack Kyogre! If the poke you sacrifice was so essential to your strategy, you should not have put it in that situation in the first place! Using Latias just undervalues long-term thinking.

 

[mtr]

Yeah, Latios is a really undervalued threat. As is Mewtwo, and bulky sets are surprisingly good.

Giratina is on the way out. I only use it (and I'm one of the only users of it) as a dedicated phazer on my stall team, and even then, I ALMOST (edited in) feel that if Dusknoir had Roar, I would be using it instead. Still, Cro Giratina can be useful as an answer to mono-attacker Kyogre with Pressure, rather than the Origin forme's levitate.

Regardless, the lack of Roost is a travesty on something that is a WINGED Dragon.

@Anachronism: Check out the Ubers Celebi thread in Project: Updates.

@Everyone: We need to start a dialogue on developing specific, systematized testing measures that we can use to get pokemon into Ubers. This is what I began to think after my Perish Song Celebi tests (no one disputed the SubPass and SubSeed failures) indicated a failure and Theorymon and Twash reported success. This difference in opinion didn't happen in Project Ubers, which surprised me.

 

[Private Piplup]

On the subject of Uber UU's, I have to agree with Anachronism. Latios is highly underrated, and with a standard (Timid 252 SpAttk) spread and Soul Dew, Latios gets a ridiculous 538 SpAttk. It can survive a Palkia's Spacial Rend (but not Draco Meteor without a Calm Mind first), check Kyogre and Mewtwo and OHKO Wobbuffet with Draco Meteor and Stealth Rock as mentioned above. He also comes with Recover, and a handy Earthquake immunity. The best part though, is Soul Dew, which is basically a free Calm Mind. A great Pokemon in my book.

 

[Matthew]

Yeah, Latios is a really undervalued threat. As is Mewtwo, and bulky sets are surprisingly good.

Giratina is on the way out. I only use it (and I'm one of the only users of it) as a dedicated phazer on my stall team, and even then, I feel that if Dusknoir had Roar, I would be using it instead. Still, Cro Giratina can be useful as an answer to mono-attacker Kyogre with Pressure, rather than the Origin forme's levitate.

Regardless, the lack of Roost is a travesty on something that is a WINGED Dragon.

I don't see why you would run Dusknoir with a base 45 HP stat compared to Giratina's base 150, honestly I don't think Dusknoir can do anything worth mentioning that Giratina will not completely outclass, except maybe if you want a Ghost-type pokemon who can use Trick Room (even then Dusknoir is outclassed by Steel-types). To be frank if you think that Dusknoir competes with Giratina in any way you are very, very wrong.

 

[Private Piplup]

He's pointing out that Giratina has very limited uses, even in the context of stall. Like really, what threats can a Giratina stop that a Lugia can't? If Will-o-wisp misses, (75 accuracy and all) a Groudon can feasibly get past it with some prior damage or Stealth Rock and Spikes (which is admittedly unlikely, as stall teams will almost be guaranteed to have a Forretress). However, comparing it to Dusknoir is going a bit far. 135 defenses are only a little better than 120, and 45 Base HP is just pathetic compared to 150. However, in my opinion, other than blocking Rapid Spin, Lugia outclasses Giratina in every way. Reliable recovery, an Earthquake immunity, no weakness to Dragon, access to Reflect, and 110 Speed to outspeed Groudon and Rayquaza, and better defensive stats (although less HP) really make Lugia outshine Giratina for walling purposes in every way.

Fun Fact: A standard Belly Drum sweeper Linnoone does only about 60% to a standard "The Great Wall" Giratina with a +6 Shadow Claw. So if you have trouble with these things, try a Giratina. However, a Lugia can do pretty much the same thing, but whatever.

 

[Jibaku]

Private Piplup I disagree here. There are some parts of Giratina that Lugia wishes to have, but doesn't.

- Lugia can not stop a Rock Polish Groudon
- Lugia typically gets set up on by Wobbuffet's Encore. Giratina can throw an Outrage at Wobb if it tries to Encore it.
- Handy resistances to Water, Electric, and Explosion immunity. Calm Mind Giratina-A can be used to counter CM/Rest/Talk/Surf Kyogre in emergencies.
- Good mono STAB.
- No Stealth Rock weakness (though he gets hit by Spikes, but SR is more often on the field than Spikes or both)

Also Giratina's defenses are higher than Lugia's (not individually, though) If you calculate it you will find that a 248 HP / max SDef Calm Giratina actually takes Special hits better than max/max Calm Lugia.

Simply put, Lugia is nowhere near outclassing Giratina

 

[mtr]

I don't see why you would run Dusknoir with a base 45 HP stat compared to Giratina's base 150, honestly I don't think Dusknoir can do anything worth mentioning that Giratina will not completely outclass, except maybe if you want a Ghost-type pokemon who can use Trick Room (even then Dusknoir is outclassed by Steel-types). To be frank if you think that Dusknoir competes with Giratina in any way you are very, very wrong.

Yeah, Private Piplup was right: I was being rhetorical. Sorry for the confusion. I would never actually use Dusknoir, I just often find myself disappointed by the lack of action that Giratina gets, which is limited to RP Don, lesser physical threats like Scizor and Metagross, and gimmicks like Bulk Up Mewtwo. I mean, being a Dragon-typed Physical Wall kinda sucks.

 

[Private Piplup]

About Giratina vs Lugia

I will be comparing the two in terms of how well they do what they can feasibly do. After all, you don't expect a wall to sweep much do you?

Both Lugia and Giratina take about the same damage from special attacks with the standard "(The) Great Wall" sets listed in the Smogon analysis, assuming the attack has the same effectiveness on both of them. However, of the most common (special) attacking types in Ubers: Ice, Electric, Dragon, Dark, and Water, admittedly, four are super-effective against Lugia, while only three are super-effective against Giratina, and it resists the other two. Therefore, in this respect, I agree that Giratina is superior, but I suppose if you factored in Roost vs RestTalk...

Next, in terms of physical walling, which is what you should really be doing with these two. Giratina weathers neutral hits better, but nearly all physical attackers (Groudon, Rayquaza, Garchomp, and various other threats) can hit it super-effectively, often with STAB moves. Giratina is helpless against Rayquaza and Garchomp, but it takes on Groudon fairly well. However, a mere 31% of Groudon elect to run Rock Polish, meaning that Giratina has fairly limited uses. Even then, if Giratina's Will-o-wisp misses, Groudon can most likely take out Giratina. Both Lugia and Giratina can weather hits from minor physical attackers such as CB-Scizor, the occasional Metagross, and random unboosted (physical) moves in general. Lugia on the other hand, can stop Garchomp and Rayquaza quite reliably, but generally falls to Rock Polish Groudon, although it has a chance if it is at full health. The most common physical attacking types are Dragon, Ground, and Rock, so Lugia is weak to one, neutral to one, and immune to one. Giratina is weak to one, and neutral to the others. Outrage however, is significantly more powerful than Stone Edge, and often carries STAB and has 100 accuracy, so that must be considered as well.

Now, where Lugia really outshines Giratina, the movepools.
First off, Lugia has the ever-coveted reliable recovery move in the form of Recover/Roost, which clearly outclasses RestTalk. Secondly, it has access to both Reflect and Light Screen, while Giratina must rely on a 75 accuracy move for physical attacks and has nothing for special attacks. Both can Phaze thanks to Roar/Whirlwind, but Lugia gets one more move due to Roost taking one slot and RestTalk taking up two, which lets Lugia either Toxic, Thunder Wave, Light Screen, or maybe even Calm Mind. Lugia's movepool is undoubtedly superior to Giratina's.

Both can run a Cro set (Calm Mind, Rest, Sleep Talk, Dragon Pulse) set reasonably well, although Lugia gets Calm Mind, Roost, Whirlwind, Ice Beam, so it is arguably better, due to freedom of moves and no sleep to set up on.

*About Giratina threatening to Outrage Wobbuffet, a defensive Giratina is highly unlikely to run Outrage due to its low base Attack and Speed hindering its sweeping potential, and the side-effect of Confusion. Wobbuffet can encore, take a hit, and switch to something that resists Outrage, or can set up on it, so it really ends up the same way as Lugia does.

After a whole bunch of Theorymon, I hope I have discussed the two in an unbiased (probably not) way. I leave the decision up to the reader as to which wall is better. In general, Giratina has specific uses (Blocks Rapid Spin, takes on RP Groudon) and Lugia has more general uses.

 

[Jibaku]

Both can run a Cro set (Calm Mind, Rest, Sleep Talk, Dragon Pulse) set reasonably well, although Lugia gets Calm Mind, Roost, Whirlwind, Ice Beam, so it is arguably better, due to freedom of moves and no sleep to set up on.

Disagreeing here. Cro Giratina (why are we calling it Cro? Cromat didn't make Rest/Talk/CM/DPulse Giratina) may not have Roost, but Rest/Talk keeps it safe from status. Lugia on the other hand fears burns/poisons like plague and is incapable of hurting Kyogre even at +6 (unless you use Aeroblast).

Outrage on Giratina isn't meant for sweeping-it's for denting stuff when it is needed. Giratina can OHKO Latias with Outrage and deal over 50% to an Encoring Wobb if it gets that Will-o-Wisp in beforehand. Not many pokemon would enjoy setting up on an Outrage, and there's also a chance that its Outrage may end on turn 2 and it can switch out. Also, Outrage does 31% minimum to Lucario, which means it won't exactly enjoy setting up if wobb is to switch to him after the Encore.

Even then, if Giratina's Will-o-wisp misses, Groudon can most likely take out Giratina

You need SR + Spikes. Giratina can survive a miss as LO Dragon Claw does like 41.7% at maximum or somewhere around that

Lugia actually does not stop Rayquaza and Garchomp quite reliably. This is mainly because the Stealth Rock weakness really bites it. For instance, the standard Lugia can not take on a Dragon Dance Rayquaza and Choice Band Garchomp. Opting for a faster Lugia to stop CBChomp means it could potentially struggle with Scarfchomp as long as SR is up.

I do agree, however, that Lugia has more general uses. However, most of the time it's just sitting there asking for Wobbuffet or Forretress to set up, so you better have decent support for it lol. Lugia isn't something you can just slap onto a team and call it "there, I have threats w, x, y and z covered".

tl; dr: it depends on team.

 

[Ash Borer]

I always though that cro meant

Calm mind
rest talk
offensive move

 

[Myzozoa]

It was named after the guy who invented crocune (cromat)

 

[Darkmalice]

Giratina's STalk makes it a status absorber. If you can get it in on Darkrai's Dark Void, you've taken the first big step in handling it (but you're pretty much forced to swap Giratina out afterwards). Perhaps more importantly, Giratina has two immunities. It is an impenetrable anti-spinner; Forry, Starmie etc will never take it down. Giratina's Fighting-type weakness is also helpful, alas only slightly. It can come in on choiced Fighting attacks, and in a desperate suitation, it can survive +2 Lucario's Crunch and proceed to burn it. Giratina also takes less damage from Scizor, regardless of which attack it uses.

However, Lugia is less reliable than Giratina in beating Groudon thanks to Stone Edge, Thunderwave, and Toxic, but it counters SD Ray, and it has at least some chance of countering DDRay and MixRay. Whilst it cannot absorb status, it can be paired alongside Blissey for cleric support. It has an excellent 110 base speed to outrun the majority of Ubers, so Roost can temporarily shed its Ice, Electric and Rock type weaknesses (take that Groudon!). Chomp's CB Outrage isn't much of an issue if you have a Steel-type ally besides Dialga to take the hit; everything else save Toxic and Stone Edge is a non-issue. Lugia is better against stall teams than Giratina. Giratina takes Spikes damage (and may be forced to rest early from Tspikes), and it does very little to harm your opponent outside Will-O-Wisp (which has limited use against stall teams), Dragon Claw for Latias (who has Dragon Pulse for Gira) and prevents your opponent from using Rapid Spin, but it can't stop Forry from getting up as many hazards as it wants outside of Roar. Lugia's Whirlwind alone makes it more useful, as it can utilise entry hazard damage and thwart your opponent's attempt to set up their own entry hazards or to phaze you.

Personally though, if I'm not using stall, I wouldn't recommend either of them. Both find it very hard to fit on an offensive team, do little against the vast majority of special attackers, and I want a reliable way of dealing with Ray

 

[tripe]

Giratina's STalk makes it a status absorber. If you can get it in on Darkrai's Dark Void, you've taken the first big step in handling it (but you're pretty much forced to swap Giratina out afterwards). Perhaps more importantly, Giratina has two immunities. It is an impenetrable anti-spinner; Forry, Starmie etc will never take it down. Giratina's Fighting-type weakness is also helpful, alas only slightly. It can come in on choiced Fighting attacks, and in a desperate suitation, it can survive +2 Lucario's Crunch and proceed to burn it. Giratina also takes less damage from Scizor, regardless of which attack it uses.

However, Lugia is less reliable than Giratina in beating Groudon thanks to Stone Edge, Thunderwave, and Toxic, but it counters SD Ray, and it has at least some chance of countering DDRay and MixRay. Whilst it cannot absorb status, it can be paired alongside Blissey for cleric support. It has an excellent 110 base speed to outrun the majority of Ubers, so Roost can temporarily shed its Ice, Electric and Rock type weaknesses (take that Groudon!). Chomp's CB Outrage isn't much of an issue if you have a Steel-type ally besides Dialga to take the hit; everything else save Toxic and Stone Edge is a non-issue. Lugia is better against stall teams than Giratina. Giratina takes Spikes damage (and may be forced to rest early from Tspikes), and it does very little to harm your opponent outside Will-O-Wisp (which has limited use against stall teams), Dragon Claw for Latias (who has Dragon Pulse for Gira) and prevents your opponent from using Rapid Spin, but it can't stop Forry from getting up as many hazards as it wants outside of Roar. Lugia's Whirlwind alone makes it more useful, as it can utilise entry hazard damage and thwart your opponent's attempt to set up their own entry hazards or to phaze you.

Personally though, if I'm not using stall, I wouldn't recommend either of them. Both find it very hard to fit on an offensive team, do little against the vast majority of special attackers, and I want a reliable way of dealing with Ray

First off, a stall team is normally weak to virtually any version of darkrai, because it'll dark void, then if the player was any decent, they'd abuse nasty plot and proceed to sweep an entire stall team. Giratina is a good spin-blocker yes, but it can do very little to eliminate Forrtress, which is Giratina-o with hp fire is much better spin blocking than the altered form is. I believe Giratina-o can be an emergency check to Lucario and eliminate from the field, rather than just burning it.

Lugia very rarely runs above 307 speed, which is only outspeeding 90 base at best. Some Rayquaza do run +speed, especially mixed and dragon dance, which Lugia can/will die to anyways. CB chomp's outrage will heavily damage anything that swaps in, regardless of resistance. Lugia and Giratina are very different walls, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Lugia is mainly built to physically wall, while Giratina is meant to be a mixed wall. They both can phaze, with whirlwind, and roar respectively.

 

[MegaKick]

I think they can both be used to stop specific threats better. Lugia can handle rayquaza, while girantina can handle kyogre. However, once arceus is allowed, I expect girantina usage will rise, since switching into extreemspeed for free and activating pressure is nice. Then he can burn it, wheres lugia has to take another hit before he whirlwinds, and I'm not sure he would survive stealth rock, then a +2 e-speed, then a +2 shadow claw.

@ above: Lugia can mix wall just fine with base 152 speciel defense. Super effective does not mean OHKO.

 

[never_again]

i dont like to disagree with jibaku as he downright ended my arguement of Metagross vs BU Dialga in my last uber RMT, but my stance on Lugia v Giratina, if i had to choose one or the other is this:

If Lugia wasnt SR weak or I had a spinner on my team(which i did in my more recent teams because Spikes was just too much, so i packed Starmie or Tentacruel)

anyways, If Lugia wasnt SR weak, I would choose it over Giratina everytime, and Id carry something else to take on Groudon (my favorite was Bronzong)

-Lugia is appreciably faster(altho emphasis on speed could lead it to lose some bulk)
-No hideous Dragon Weakness
-Roost/Recover

As for Giratina, its even more of a setup bait than Lugia
yea, it can outrage wobbuffet but outrage is a pretty bad move on a wall because it locks you in, and courtesy of Giratina's horrendous speed, could mean a first round exit if someone sacks something on the first turn of outrage and then brings in Palkia, Rayquaza(Outrage/Meteor) or something like that

Speaking of which, Giratina is forced out almost every time by Palkia, Dialga, Rayquaza, Darkrai, and even Mewtwo/Latias/Garchomp to a degree

Lugia with its high speed, instant recovery and no dragon weakness can stay in with Palkia Dialga Garchomp and especially Rayquaza, if its running the right set

like I used to run a mixPalkia with lustrous, aqua tail rend and some other attacks or something like that, and a combination of Rend as it switched in +Aqua Tail couldnt KO it even with SR,(because i definitely didnt carry thunder)

If i had to run a Lugia, I would do something like

Toxic/Twave
Reflect/Wwind
Light Screen/Wwind
Roost

with that and a spinner, it can switch into the likes of Dialga and Palkia and just not die, because i think a Scarf Thunder from either of the two does like 45 percent, easily twave/roostable, and if they arnt Scarfed, well Lugia is faster and can set up the appropriate screen to help its team and itself. Of course, you'd have to have a CM Taunt Mewtwo and a Darkrai counter, but you'd also have to have one if you used Giratina anyway

Of courrse, I am saying this because I never went full stall, i merely used bulky stuff to answer to some problem threats (mostly the Dragons)

if you were going all out stall, well it would obviously be great to pack a Giratina to block spins, but again, Giratina simply doesnt answer the amount of threats that Lugia does

as a side note, one of the easiest ways to lose is to CM Lugia. I remember I used to lose more often than I won vs Zak91 before I adjusted because he was the only one of which to use a CM Lugia well, and If Darkrai and Wobbuffet goes down, its probably GG

you cant say the same for CM Giratina because a Meteor will still do quite a bit, and theres always the faster Outrages from Garchomp, Rayquaza and even (Dialga/Palkia) to scare it off or KO it

AS AN EXTRA SIDE NOTE: I agree with what darknessmalice said about using them on an offensive team, but only to an extent, as it depends on waht he means as an offensive team

no, it wouldnt mix in well with a team of pokes that do nothing but setup move or attack, but as i said, Lugia is a great pokemon to add in to your team to patch up some weaknesses or to switch in to some nasty threats like the Dragons

fabbles always used Bronzong but never went full stall
articanus had a forrestress on most teams before it was cool to have one, and he wasnt a stall player either

i mean, it is very easy for Groudon to get a polish since not many things can OHKO it besides a Mewtwo Grass Knot, a Kyogre surf in the rain(or ice beam if its specs) or a Meteor (it can polish on a scarf dialga pulse for example)

in that way, you cant just hope to not let it set up because at times it will be inevitable, so you must carry a counter like Bronzong or Giratina

 

[Darkmalice]

First off, a stall team is normally weak to virtually any version of darkrai, because it'll dark void, then if the player was any decent, they'd abuse nasty plot and proceed to sweep an entire stall team. True, but it still helps to activate Sleep Clause, unless you're using a specialised counter like Heracross. Giratina is a good spin-blocker yes, but it can do very little to eliminate Forrtress I said this, which is Giratina-o with hp fire is much better spin blocking than the altered form is. I believe Giratina-o can be an emergency check to Lucario and eliminate from the field, rather than just burning it.

Lugia very rarely runs above 307 speed, which is only outspeeding 90 base at best. Most Ubers have 90 base speed, which Lugia outspeeds. Lugia can also run enough speed to outrun Ray should it wish and still keep a Bold nature (and if it really wants to, it can outrun Palkia and Garchomp). Some Rayquaza do run +speed, especially mixed and dragon dance, which Lugia can/will die to anyways. Lugia, if 100% healthy, can beat DD Ray and even with SR on the field, and MixRay too depending on what attack it switchs into. Of course, this will not always be the case, but at least it can beat them, as opposed to Giratina who has absolutely no business switching into Ray. CB chomp's outrage will heavily damage anything that swaps in, regardless of resistance. Anything is a too big a word - Metagross, Heatran, Skarmory, Jirachi. Though many many things do. And once again, Lugia is a much better switch in that Giratina. Lugia and Giratina are very different walls, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Lugia is mainly built to physically wall, while Giratina is meant to be a mixed wall. They both can phaze, with whirlwind, and roar respectively.

True, Lugia and Giratina are very different walls. I wouldn't call Giratina a mix wall though. You'd be foolish to think it can wall Palkia, Dialga, Mewtwo, Darkrai, MixRay, CMOgre etc. And I agree that Giratina-O is better against Forry than Giratina, but that's if it has HP Fire, which means it lacks Thunder for Kyogre or Aura Sphere for Steel-types and Ttar (and it loses some IVs).

I think they can both be used to stop specific threats better. Lugia can handle rayquaza, while girantina can handle kyogre. However, once arceus is allowed, I expect girantina usage will rise, since switching into extreemspeed for free and activating pressure is nice. Then he can burn it, wheres lugia has to take another hit before he whirlwinds, and I'm not sure he would survive stealth rock, then a +2 e-speed, then a +2 shadow claw.

@ above: Lugia can mix wall just fine with base 154 speciel defense. Super effective does not mean OHKO.

I agree with Lugia handling Ray, and the Arceus and Girainta bit (except Lugia can set up Reflect before using Whirlwind, and then Roost off some damage - Lugia's usage should rise as well). But Giratina isn't a Kyogre counter. It can't take Specs Water Spout or Ice Beam. If Kyogre has CM, Giratina can't stop it from sweeping. But it works against ScarfOgre as long as it avoids Ice Beam.

Lugia usually isn't a good mix wall due to its Ice, Electric, Dark, and Ghost -type weaknesses. It can shed the first two with Roost, but Thunder will inevitably cause Paralysis.

AS AN EXTRA SIDE NOTE: I agree with what darknessmalice said about using them on an offensive team, but only to an extent, as it depends on waht he means as an offensive team

no, it wouldnt mix in well with a team of pokes that do nothing but setup move or attack, but as i said, Lugia is a great pokemon to add in to your team to patch up some weaknesses or to switch in to some nasty threats like the Dragons

By offensive team, I just meant a team that uses offense to win. To do that, it needs Momentum, which Lugia and Giratina simply do not provide. You've pretty much said why in the second paragraph. The only set I would consider a good addition to offensive teams is DS Lugia (though I admit that Whirlwind is partially useful thanks to Deoxys-S).

Not that I'm disagree with you. Lugia is good at patching up certain weaknesses. I just prefer using other methods to handling Pokemon like Ray, like indirect checks. I've used Blissey on many offensive teams due to the incredible number of Pokemon she walls. That includes Darkrai, as I don't mind her taking a +1 Focus Blast to Thunderwave Darkrai, and then cure Darkrai's Dark Void with Arometherapy.

 

[tripe]

True, Lugia and Giratina are very different walls. I wouldn't call Giratina a mix wall though. You'd be foolish to think it can wall Palkia, Dialga, Mewtwo, Darkrai, MixRay, CMOgre etc. And I agree that Giratina-O is better against Forry than Giratina, but that's if it has HP Fire, which means it lacks Thunder for Kyogre or Aura Sphere for Steel-types and Ttar (and it loses some IVs).

Giratina is bulkier than Lugia on both sides, and lacks the sr weakness, thus making it a better mixed wall, it's glaring weakness and lack of reliable recovery do however tone it down a bit. I never said Giratina could wall those threats, Lugia sure as hell can't wall them either. Giratina-o can run a mixed set, which in my opinion is his best set. In fact, 4 of those 5 threats are best left to be revenged rather than having a wall switch in. CmOgre can be walled by the cm Giratina.

 

[mtr]

@tripe: love your sig. The situation that inspired me to use it was the classic Kyogre + Scizor v. Blissey + Forretress matchup. Assume that both sides have SR on the field. If you have blocked a SpecsOgre (using Surf) with a Blissey, do you let your opponent get in Scizor and receive a free U-turn, making him win the residual damage conflict? Or do you move Forretress to the expected Scizor to try to get off a Rapid Spin or another layer, knowing that if the opponent uses Surf, you've lost Forretress? It's a 50-50 thing, and it's nothing but (maybe educated) guesswork.

As for Lugia v. Giratina: CM Giratina...well, the job of using Calm Mind on a stall team is usually best left to Latias, who counters Kyogre pretty well anyways. Still, if you're playing a more modern style of stall, you may wish to use Giratina just in case you come across a mono-attacker that your Palkia can't handle.

 

[Darkmalice]

Giratina is bulkier than Lugia on both sides, and lacks the sr weakness, thus making it a better mixed wall, it's glaring weakness and lack of reliable recovery do however tone it down a bit. I never said Giratina could wall those threats, Lugia sure as hell can't wall them either. Giratina-o can run a mixed set, which in my opinion is his best set. In fact, 4 of those 5 threats are best left to be revenged rather than having a wall switch in. CmOgre can be walled by the cm Giratina.

CM Giratina is a decent mixed wall. But the lack of Will-O-Wisp means it fails at walling SD Groudon, and can't do anything to pHazers. In fact, it can't do much to anything unless it gets enough boosts (which is very hard). Scizor just U-turns out, Latias CMs alongside you, Ray or Chomp swithces in. Lugia also has Light Screen should it want to be a partial mixed wall. Agreeing with what mtr12, Latias is the better CMer. There is little reason to use CM Gira over Bulk Up Dialga as a late game bulky sweeper, who has much better typing for the job. At least CM Lugia has Roost, Whirlwind, and better bulk than Latias to distinguish itself.

Also, stall teams may not have a revenge killer for those 4 threats, which are the teams where Giratina shines.

 

[mtr]

CM Giratina is a decent mixed wall. But the lack of Will-O-Wisp means it fails at walling SD Groudon, and can't do anything to pHazers. In fact, it can't do much to anything unless it gets enough boosts (which is very hard). Scizor just U-turns out, Latias CMs alongside you, Ray or Chomp swithces in. Lugia also has Light Screen should it want to be a partial mixed wall. Agreeing with what mtr12, Latias is the better CMer. There is little reason to use CM Gira over Bulk Up Dialga as a late game bulky sweeper, who has much better typing for the job. At least CM Lugia has Roost, Whirlwind, and better bulk than Latias to distinguish itself.

Also, stall teams may not have a revenge killer for those 4 threats, which are the teams where Giratina shines.

I generally agree. Giratina really got shafted in terms of typing, which ends up really inhibiting its walling ability. A pure Ghost typing would have been desirable.

But SD Groudon shouldn't be a consideration, because doesn't really exist. As the analysis says, it is "moribund" in the metagame, mainly because of the Water-based nature of Ubers Play, combined with the omnipresence of stuff like Darkrai, Rayquaza, and users of harsh, specially-based Dragon-type attacks such as Palkia and Dialga.

 

[Private Piplup]

On the subject of physical walls, has anyone considered the "Physically Defensive" set listed in the analysis? It is actually quite effective at walling things. Since it also gets Taunt, it is not Wobbuffet bait, unlike Lugia, and to a lesser extent, Giratina. It also gets Reflect AND Will-o-wisp, thus cutting their attack to 1/4 power, which means that at +6, their attack will only do "normal" damage. Arguably, it gets the best of both worlds, by Taunting status, which is similar to RestTalk, getting reliable recovery from Recover, and Reflect/Light Screen and Will-o-wisp. It is also an unconventional stall-breaker, since it can Will-o-wisp and then Taunt, to prevent recovery (and entry hazards), slowly whittling away at their health. Personally, I have found this set:
Mewtwo@Leftovers
192 HP/32 Spe/144 Def/140 SpD
Taunt
Will-o-wisp
Light Screen
Recover

This set is actually quite effective when used properly. By using the appropriate damage-reducing move before the opponent can attack, this Mewtwo can stall out most everything bar Darkrai, SpecsKyogre, and maybe Latios. It also is a good pseudo-stall breaker by utilising the strategy stated above.

Please feel free to RMP (Rate My Pokemon)

 

[blasphemy1]

Although Giratina-O is used more than Giratina-A, if you wanna talk about defensive capabilities, and comparing to Lugia, I think alternate forme should be mentioned. Giratina-A is most definitely not outclassed by Lugia, and Giratina-O is pretty damn good as well, although IMO Giratina-O should be compared to something like Dialga.