DP Research Thread #4 ("Newer still")

[david stone]

Hello, and welcome to the new (and possibly final) DP research thread! We need your help testing this stuff out, so don't be intimidated. Many of the things still in this thread will take about a minute to test. Even the stuff that requires a lot of testing can still be accomplished by a couple of guys testing while they wait for their pizza rolls to finish in the toaster! A few people submitting trials of 15 or so hits at a time can really add up. If you are unsure of how to test something, don't hesitate to ask. It's a lot better to ask how to test something than to spend an hour setting up an elaborate test only to find out that your results are inconclusive.

However, that doesn't mean you just post anything here. Questions about breeding chains and the like belong in the "Ask a Simple Question" thread. This thread is reserved for questions about game mechanics.

You must test this in-game. Testing on Shoddy is completely irrelevant. Future posters who attempt to justify a test with Shoddy results will be infracted.

Here's a link to the old threads, in case you want to double-check something that was posted there, since I didn't copy over how they proved anything, just the findings.

DP Research Thread #3 ("Newer")
DP Research Thread #2 ("New")
DP Research Thread #1 ("Old")



DP Resource Thread: has valuable information for testing, such as the damage formula.


Abilities
Items
Moves




General Mechanics

End-of-turn effects: (both of these must be tested in Wi-Fi / link battle, as the Battle Tower has different mechanics for this sort of thing)

Colin: you know, we never got an answer to the one question about draws
Colin: whether there is a check for deaths between end of turn effect tiers

In other words, Sandstorm is going, Blissey is brought to 1% after Celebi hits it with a Grass Knot, Celebi is about to faint to Perish Song. Does the game end in a draw, because both Pokemon faint that turn, or does Celebi win because the Sandstorm activates before Perish Song? Similarly, if both Pokemon are burned and have 1% left, is it a draw or does the slower Pokemon win?

End-of-turn-effects with multiple rounds of fainting:

Graviton: Metagross uses Explosion, both Pokemon faint
Graviton: Both people try to send in, say, Shedinja
Graviton: And boht sides have SR down
Graviton: Do both sides then pick a new Pokemon?
Colin: Actually I asked something like this before
Colin: And I remember what the verdict was
Colin: the turn proceeds as normal, with end of turn effects taking place with no pokemon out
Colin: (so reflect can still fade)
Colin: then they both choose
Colin: that was what I heard last time I asked at least
Colin: I think you were even involved in that discussion :p
Colin: and that answer was provided by Hiplup, but it may have just been a guess

Freeze: What is the defrost chance?

Originally Posted by Fat Peterko

ice ice baby

first DP freeze test ever

two level 100 chansey, serene grace ice beaming each other in an in-game double battle
L = left chansey
R = right chansey, faster

number of turns where the pokémon didn´t attack because of being frozen in 3 battles (zero means defrosted right away)

L1 - 1,4,3,6
L2 - 0,4,3,15,7,0,2,1,0,2,6,4
L3 - 1,6,4,4,1,2,3,11,0,1,1
L = 27 times frozen, 92 turns

R1 - 1,2,5,4,2,0,0,0,0,7,6,3
R2 - 4,5,0,0,0,2,2,1,6
R3 - 4,14,2,3,1,3,9
R = 28 times frozen, 86 turns

Originally Posted by Fat ColinJF

Following up on Obi's defrosting graph, I used Graph to perform a regression analysis to find the best value of r assuming that defrosting follows the formula given by X-Act: p = 1 - (1-r)^(n+1)



According to this, the best value of r for this data is 23.190067%.

In other words, the defrost rate is probably somewhere between 20% and 25%, possibly at 60/256 (the GSC defrost rate, according to X-Act).

[david stone]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/abilities/

Check this page for what we currently know first.

Early Bird: How does Early Bird work if a Pokemon is sleeping, and then gains Early Bird? My guess is that it divides the remaining turns by 2 and rounds down. My next question, then, is what happens if a sleeping Pokemon loses Early Bird? Is the remaining time multiplied by 2?

Slow Start: Slow Start can be Skill Swapped away in English versions of DP and have the effect be removed, but not Japanese (Skill Swap works, but the effects remain on Regigigas).

Wonder Guard: Do any moves, aside from Fire Fang and the typeless moves (Beat Up, Doom Desire, Future Sight, and Struggle), always hit through Wonder Guard? Trace Gardevoir + Porygon2 would likely be the best way to test this.

Can Counter, Mirror Coat, Metal Burst, Sheer Cold, Fissure, or any other non-regular damage move hit through Wonder Guard if the type would render it super-effective? I think Night Shade and presumably Dragon Rage do.

[david stone]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/

Go here first for most of the item information.

King's Rock: What moves aren't given a chance to flinch? Is it all moves that can already flinch or all moves with a secondary effect (or something else?)? Do multi-hit moves like Icicle Spear and Fury Swipes have multiple chances to activate? Beat Up and Triple Kick do.

Originally Posted by Fat Amazing Ampharos

I have failed utterly to find an easy list of the moves affected by King's Rock (and hence Razor Fang). The only solution was to download the raw databases for veekun's Pokedex and painstakingly make a list by hand. Smogon's datadex pages should change this by having this list under both King's Rock and Razor Fang:

Pound, Karate Chop, Doubleslap, Comet Punch, Mega Punch, Pay Day, Scratch, Vicegrip, Razor Wind, Cut, Gust, Wing Attack, Fly, Bind, Slam, Vine Whip, Double Kick, Mega Kick, Jump Kick, Rolling Kick, Horn Attack, Fury Attack, Tackle, Wrap, Take Down, Thrash, Double-edge, Pin Missile, Sonicboom, Water Gun, Hydro Pump, Surf, Hyper Beam, Peck, Drill Peck, Submission, Low Kick, Seismic Toss, Strength, Razor Leaf, Solarbeam, Petal Dance, Dragon Rage, Fire Spin, Rock Throw, Earthquake, Dig, Quick Attack, Rage, Night Shade, Bide, Selfdestruct, Egg Bomb, Waterfall, Clamp, Swift, Skull Bash, Spike Cannon, Hi Jump Kick, Barrage, Sky Attack, Psywave, Crabhammer, Explosion, Fury Swipes, Bonemerang, Slash, Struggle, Triple Kick, Snore, Flail, Aeroblast, Reversal, Mach Punch, Faint Attack, Bone Rush, Outrage, Rollout, False Swipe, Fury Cutter, Steel Wing, Return, Frustration, Magnitude, Megahorn, Dragonbreath, Rapid Spin, Vital Throw, Hidden Power, Cross Chop, Twister, Extremespeed, Whirlpool, Beat Up, Uproar, Spit Up, Revenge, Brick Break, Endeavor, Eruption, Dive, Arm Thrust, Ice Ball, Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, Meteor Mash, Weather Ball, Air Cutter, Overheat, Silver Wind, Signal Beam, Shadow Punch, Sky Uppercut, Sand Tomb, Muddy Water, Bullet Seed, Aerial Ace, Icicle Spear, Dragon Claw, Frenzy Plant, Bounce, Mud Shot, Poison Tail, Volt Tackle, Magical Leaf, Leaf Blade, Rock Blast, Shock Wave, Water Pulse, Psycho Boost, Wake-up slap, Hammer Arm, Gyro Ball, Brine, Pluck, U-turn, Close Combat, Payback, Assurance, Trump Card, Wring Out, Punishment, Last Resort, Sucker Punch, Force Palm, Aura Sphere, Poison Jab, Dark Pulse, Night Slash, Aqua Tail, Seed Bomb, Air Slash, X-scissor, Dragon Pulse, Dragon Rush, Power Gem, Drain Punch, Vacuum Wave, Brave Bird, Earth Power, Giga Impact, Bullet Punch, Avalanche, Ice Shard, Shadow Claw, Thunder Fang, Ice Fang, Fire Fang, Shadow Sneak, Mud Bomb, Psycho Cut, Zen Headbutt, Mirror Shot, Flash Cannon, Rock Climb, Draco Meteor, Discharge, Lava Plume, Leaf Storm, Power Whip, Rock Wrecker, Cross Poison, Gunk Shot, Iron Head, Magnet Bomb, Stone Edge, Grass Knot, Judgment, Bug Bite, Charge Beam, Wood Hammer, Aqua Jet, Attack Order, Head Smash, Double Hit, Roar Of Time, Spacial Rend, Crush Grip, Magma Storm, Seed Flare, Ominous Wind, Shadow Force

Metronome: Does Metronome increase the damage of moves selected through other moves (for instance, using Sleep Talk)? Does it increase if it selects the same move twice, (Sleep Talk->Rock Slide, Sleep Talk->Rock Slide), or can it pick anything and still ramp up (Sleep Talk->Earthquake, Sleep Talk->Rock Slide)?

Shell Bell: What doesn't activate it? I know Doom Desire, Future Sight, and any other end-of-turn damage does not, but other than that...

[david stone]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/

Check here first.

Encore: Lasts 4-8 turns. Is this an even distribution chance (as in 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 turns all have equal probabilities)?

How to test: Use Encore, count how long it lasts. At least 15 trials should be good, but obviously, as many as you can do will be helpful. We'll need a few hundred to get reliable data.

Gravity: The issue of how Gravity raises your effective accuracy is still unknown. How I would test it is by using Double Team once under Gravity. If it's actually -2 evasion for all, moves would have 4/3 their normal accuracy, but if it's * 5/3 accuracy, moves would have 3/4 * 5/3 = 5/4 their normal accuracy, meaning a 75% accurate move (Sleep Powder without CompoundEyes) would have 100% accuracy for -2 evasion, but 93.75% accuracy (possibly rounded to 93%) for * 5/3, as I suspect it is. If you ever miss Sleep Powder, it's not a -2 evasion stage change. What is known that it is not a +2 accuracy alteration, meaning it affects evasion or it is * 5/3 accuracy. The only difference between the two (* 5/3 accuracy or * 3/5 evasion) is possible rounding issues, but I don't think there is enough information on how accuracy works to determine that.

Mimic: What can't it select?

Pursuit: Does Pursuit against a faster U-Turner still have a chance to hurt itself in its confusion (assuming the Pursuiter is Confused, of course)?

If a Pokemon holding a Choice Band / Choice Glasses / Choice Scarf uses Pursuit against a Pokemon switching out, they can no longer reselect a different move next turn, even if this happens on the Choice item holder's first turn in battle. They can change moves in the Japanese version of DP, but in cross-language battles, the English version's settings override it.

Rage:

I think I have come across a bug involving Rage, Sub, and any other move:

I was using a Kangaskhan with the the move set: Sub, Sucker punch, Rage, and focus punch.

One battle, something strange happened:

Kang used substitute.
Krabby used mud shot!
Sub takes damage for Kang.

Kang used Rage!
Damage dealt yay!
Krabby used Mud shot!
Sub takes damage. (Rage is not boosted) (SUB IS NOT BROKEN)

Sub doll slides out, Kang does the focus punch animation thingy, sub slides back.
Krabby Used Mud Shot!
Kang takes damage (though the sub sprite is still there), loses a stage of speed, Rage builds, loses focus.

Now Kang's sprite is the Substitute doll, if I use substitute a new substitute doll comes in like normal. Kang is still the sub doll (it looks hilarious when a sub doll changes places with a sub doll and uses focus punch, then slides back again).
When switched out and back in, kang is back to normal.

I tried it again with rage, Sucker punch, and Sub and got the same result of bugged sprites. In fact, I was able to Rage, Sub, Rage, Sub, and a new sub would be made each time (The opponent never hit me, it was busy being a retard at the time). I was able to Sub, rage, rage, rage completely normal though.

So basically, if I use rage while behind a sub, then try to use any move other than rage, the sub disappears with no message or animation, and my pokemon is now the doll sprite.

And another bug with Rage and Confusion status:

Kang used Rage!
Damage dealt.
Nidorina used double kick.
2 hits, 2 boosts.

Kang used Rage.
Damage dealt.
Nidorina used flatter.
Sp atk up, Kang becomes confused.

Kang used Sub (no confusion message whatsoever)
Nidorina used Double kick.
Sub breaks on last hit.

Kang used sub (confusion completely gone).
Flatter fails.

Kang used rage.
Nidorina used Double kick.
sub breaks on last hit.

Kang used sucker punch. Fails.
Nidorina uses Flatter.
Kang is confused.

Kang uses sub (confusion message comes up).

So basically, if I use rage before I get confused, the message comes up, but no confusion actually happens. (I really hope this isn't a bug and is actually another awesome boost for rage)

Both of these were done in Diamond in the battle tower. When I went into wild battles and double trainer battles, I got all the same results.

I would really like someone else to recreate and confirm what happened here (or if someone already discovered this, that would be awesome too), because for all I know I'm actually asleep right now and this is a fucked dream, which explains the inconsistent capitalization of these words.


Edit: All this stuff happens on PBR also, except the dolls sliding in and out (because in PBR the dolls are present to do the attacks).

[Stall]

Originally Posted by Fat Obi

Pokemon cannot die to Poison outside of battle. If they are taken to 1 HP and are supposed to receive more walking damage from Poison, they are cured of Poison and receive a message saying so.

Do we know if the same applies to burn?

[Draco Meteor]

Originally Posted by Fat Stalling

Do we know if the same applies to burn?

Pokemon do not take Burn damage outside of battle.

[Death Phenomeno]

I've got a question regarding Mimic's mechanics:

Suppose that you have a Flareon and a Smeargle in a double battle as a team. Smeargle uses Flare Blitz on Flareon, therefore activating Flash Fire.

If Flareon were to use Mimic on Smeargle on the same turn, would Mimic copy the move or would it fail?

[AJC]

someone asked this on the previous thread but it wasn't answered before it got locked if one uses bug bite or pluck on a pokemon holding Jaboca berry does Bug bite/pluck effect take place first preventing the berry's 12.5% damage or does it still take the damage

Testing this will require the berry hacked into existance

but the test itself is simple

use bug bite or pluck on a pokemon holding jaboca berry if damage does not happen then it pluck/bug bites effect happens before jaboca's

[david stone]

Assuming the mechanics are similar to Thief and Knock Off, you first do damage, then activate the effect, meaning you wouldn't get to Pluck or Bug Bite the berry because it would go off on you.

Actually, thinking about it more, it's possible that Pluck's effect upon Plucking such a Berry is to make you take that much damage anyway.

[pear]

I just tested the Pluck + Jaboca Berry with the help of the almighty AR. (I had hacked 999x of all the berries and hacked Trick onto a Staraptor.)

I got a message saying that Staraptor stole and ate (used? My DS screen is broken so I don't know the exact text) the wild Onix's Jaboca Berry. There was no effect.

As for Micle Berry, it doesn't seem to cause an accuracy stage boost like Acupressure (sometimes) does; the message given was "GIRATINA boosted the accuracy of its next move using its Micle Berry!" I exhausted Recycle's 10 PP and the Micle Berry never failed to boost. Therefore, Micle Berry does not cause a +1 or +2 boost to accuracy. It merely boosts the accuracy of the user's move once and only once. This requires that a statistical test be run if we want to figure out the actual accuracy boost.

If a Pokémon with Sticky Hold Flings an item, do they lose it, or does it yo-yo back to them?

The item is lost. Shame, too: it would have been a nice gimmick for Muk.

[AJC]

intresting...now try the flying resist berry if it bypasses jaboca does it also bypass that?

[jujuomi]

Shield Dust: I know it blocks stuff like Ice Beam's chance to Freeze and Fake Out's flinch, but does it also block stuff like Charge Beam's chance to raise Special Attack, or Silver Wind's chance to boost all stats (stuff that doesn't affect the Shield Dust Pokemon)?

I can test this out. I'm going to try this with focus sash'd wurmples and a charge beam serene grace Dunsparce. And some silverwind/ancient power 's from serene grace togepi line.

[pear]

Coba Berry is not bypassed.

[david stone]

Quick Claw appears to activate closer to 25% of the time than 18.75%.

If you KO a Pokemon with Pursuit, do they get to select what Pokemon to send out after fainting, or do they have to stick with whatever Pokemon they originally chose?

[jujuomi]

This isn't an update on charge beam but I know from experience that poison heal does affect poison after battle. I know from EV training my Breloom. I thought it would be easier to Train if I kept healing.

[jujuomi]

My weedle was hit by my togekiss's Ancient powers/ silver winds 8 times, and I got a "boost" in all stats. So I can assume that charge beam would do the same. Weedle does infact have shield dust.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Fat Obi

ABILITIES

http://www.smogon.com/dp/abilities/

Check this page for what we currently know first.

Magic Guard: Does it block the "recoil" of an enemy's Jaboca / Rowap Berry?

How to test: Use a physical attack on a Pokemon with a Jaboca Berry, or use a Special Attack on a Pokemon with Rowap Berry.

I made my togekiss hold jaboca berry. My celable with magic guard used strength twice on togekiss. Not once did it activate. After the battle Togekiss still had Jaboca Berry.

[Tyranny of Tyranitar]

Originally Posted by Fat Obi

Life Orb: Has anyone tested Life Orb + Confusion?

I tested this one out since I run a pokemon with Life Orb on my team and wanted to know for myself.

I tested the subject pokemon with and without the Life Orb item and confused it on switch-in (I did double battle with the Pachirisu twins). With or without Life Orb, the damage dealt to the subject pokemon's self changed little (With Life Orb 35 HP; W/o 37 HP). The part at the end where Life Orb usually would react when the move was used did not occur. Therefore, confusion's self damage does not activate the Life Orb. I can make a video of it on YouTube if you'd like if you wish to have evidence.

[Draco Meteor]

Originally Posted by Fat Obi

Hustle: Does Hustle affect the Accuracy of Seismic Toss, Night Shade, Endeavor, or Dragon Rage?

Tested with Hustle Togekiss.

Seismic Toss: Missed
Night Shade: Hit 50/50 times
Dragon Rage: Hit 40/40 times

Will try to test Endeavor later.

[marrilpet]

Tested Fling and Sticky Hold using Buneary and Shellos in a Double Battle. I Flung an Iron Ball at Shellos, the item was lost.

[AJC]

Originally Posted by Fat jujuomi

I made my togekiss hold jaboca berry. My celable with magic guard used strength twice on togekiss. Not once did it activate. After the battle Togekiss still had Jaboca Berry.

needs to be testing on a enemy pokemon because some stuff doesn't trigger if its a ally in double battles

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

I have one more question that I cannot test myself, and I apologize if it has been answered.

When does Custap Berry activate? Does it activate as soon as the holder reaches 1/4 HP (like Salac Berry) or does it activate next turn when the boosted move is actually used (like Quick Claw)?

For that matter, when does Micle Berry boost?

Thanks very much.

[pear]

Micle Berry triggers its effect the moment your HP drops, but the effect is only relevant when you attack. I'd wager that it's the same for Custap Berry as well.

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

Originally Posted by Fat pear

Micle Berry triggers its effect the moment your HP drops, but the effect is only relevant when you attack. I'd wager that it's the same for Custap Berry as well.

I trust your judgment, but could you please test when you get the chance? I've heard Custap activates at the time a Quick Claw would and it would make a huge difference in its effectiveness.

[david stone]

Sleep Talk: poccil or someone got Sleep Talk data directly from the game, and he said that Sleep Talk cannot choose, in particular,

"Uproar
Any two-turn attack"

Now, I am unsure just what qualifies as a "two-turn attack". Is it moves like Solarbeam when they need a charge-up turn, moves like Hyper Beam with a cool-down turn, moves like Outrage, that last 2-3 turns of attacking, or what?



About the Micle Berry, it sounds like AA is right. He claims it's a Lock-On effect for the next turn. Whether it has Lock-On's interaction with Protect and the like needs testing (and whether this is the effect it has). Actually, it sounds like it lasts until your next Attack.

[david stone]

Two general mechanics questions (end-of-turn effects): (both of these must be tested in Wi-Fi / link battle, as the Battle Tower has different mechanics for this sort of thing)


Colin: you know, we never got an answer to the one question about draws
Colin: whether there is a check for deaths between end of turn effect tiers

In other words, Sandstorm is going Blissey is brought to 1% after Celebi hits it with a Grass Knot, Celebi is about to faint to Perish Song. Does the game end in a draw, because both Pokemon faint that turn, or does Celebi win because the Sandstorm activates before Perish Song? Similarly, if both Pokemon are burned and have 1% left, is it a draw or does the slower Pokemon win?


Graviton: Metagross uses Explosion, both Pokemon faint
Graviton: Both people try to send in, say, Shedinja
Graviton: And boht sides have SR down
Graviton: Do both sides then pick a new Pokemon?
Colin: Actually I asked something like this before
Colin: And I remember what the verdict was
Colin: the turn proceeds as normal, with end of turn effects taking place with no pokemon out
Colin: (so reflect can still fade)
Colin: then they both choose
Colin: that was what I heard last time I asked at least
Kanoa has joined Official Server.
Colin: I think you were even involved in that discussion :p
Colin: and that answer was provided by Hiplup, but it may have just been a guess