1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

DP Research Thread #4 ("Newer still")

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by david stone, Jan 20, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,150
    Hello, and welcome to the new (and possibly final) DP research thread! We need your help testing this stuff out, so don't be intimidated. Many of the things still in this thread will take about a minute to test. Even the stuff that requires a lot of testing can still be accomplished by a couple of guys testing while they wait for their pizza rolls to finish in the toaster! A few people submitting trials of 15 or so hits at a time can really add up. If you are unsure of how to test something, don't hesitate to ask. It's a lot better to ask how to test something than to spend an hour setting up an elaborate test only to find out that your results are inconclusive.

    However, that doesn't mean you just post anything here. Questions about breeding chains and the like belong in the "Ask a Simple Question" thread. This thread is reserved for questions about game mechanics.

    You must test this in-game. Testing on Shoddy is completely irrelevant. Future posters who attempt to justify a test with Shoddy results will be infracted.

    Here's a link to the old threads, in case you want to double-check something that was posted there, since I didn't copy over how they proved anything, just the findings.

    DP Research Thread #3 ("Newer")
    DP Research Thread #2 ("New")
    DP Research Thread #1 ("Old")



    DP Resource Thread: has valuable information for testing, such as the damage formula.


    Abilities
    Items
    Moves




    General Mechanics

    End-of-turn effects: (both of these must be tested in Wi-Fi / link battle, as the Battle Tower has different mechanics for this sort of thing)

    Colin: you know, we never got an answer to the one question about draws
    Colin: whether there is a check for deaths between end of turn effect tiers

    In other words, Sandstorm is going, Blissey is brought to 1% after Celebi hits it with a Grass Knot, Celebi is about to faint to Perish Song. Does the game end in a draw, because both Pokemon faint that turn, or does Celebi win because the Sandstorm activates before Perish Song? Similarly, if both Pokemon are burned and have 1% left, is it a draw or does the slower Pokemon win?

    End-of-turn-effects with multiple rounds of fainting:

    Graviton: Metagross uses Explosion, both Pokemon faint
    Graviton: Both people try to send in, say, Shedinja
    Graviton: And boht sides have SR down
    Graviton: Do both sides then pick a new Pokemon?
    Colin: Actually I asked something like this before
    Colin: And I remember what the verdict was
    Colin: the turn proceeds as normal, with end of turn effects taking place with no pokemon out
    Colin: (so reflect can still fade)
    Colin: then they both choose
    Colin: that was what I heard last time I asked at least
    Colin: I think you were even involved in that discussion :p
    Colin: and that answer was provided by Hiplup, but it may have just been a guess

    Freeze: What is the defrost chance?

    In other words, the defrost rate is probably somewhere between 20% and 25%, possibly at 60/256 (the GSC defrost rate, according to X-Act).
  2. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,150
    Abilities

    http://www.smogon.com/dp/abilities/

    Check this page for what we currently know first.

    Early Bird: How does Early Bird work if a Pokemon is sleeping, and then gains Early Bird? My guess is that it divides the remaining turns by 2 and rounds down. My next question, then, is what happens if a sleeping Pokemon loses Early Bird? Is the remaining time multiplied by 2?

    Slow Start: Slow Start can be Skill Swapped away in English versions of DP and have the effect be removed, but not Japanese (Skill Swap works, but the effects remain on Regigigas).

    Wonder Guard: Do any moves, aside from Fire Fang and the typeless moves (Beat Up, Doom Desire, Future Sight, and Struggle), always hit through Wonder Guard? Trace Gardevoir + Porygon2 would likely be the best way to test this.

    Can Counter, Mirror Coat, Metal Burst, Sheer Cold, Fissure, or any other non-regular damage move hit through Wonder Guard if the type would render it super-effective? I think Night Shade and presumably Dragon Rage do.
  3. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,150
    Items

    http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/

    Go here first for most of the item information.

    King's Rock: What moves aren't given a chance to flinch? Is it all moves that can already flinch or all moves with a secondary effect (or something else?)? Do multi-hit moves like Icicle Spear and Fury Swipes have multiple chances to activate? Beat Up and Triple Kick do.

    Metronome: Does Metronome increase the damage of moves selected through other moves (for instance, using Sleep Talk)? Does it increase if it selects the same move twice, (Sleep Talk->Rock Slide, Sleep Talk->Rock Slide), or can it pick anything and still ramp up (Sleep Talk->Earthquake, Sleep Talk->Rock Slide)?

    Shell Bell: What doesn't activate it? I know Doom Desire, Future Sight, and any other end-of-turn damage does not, but other than that...
  4. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,150
    Moves

    http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/

    Check here first.

    Encore: Lasts 4-8 turns. Is this an even distribution chance (as in 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 turns all have equal probabilities)?

    How to test: Use Encore, count how long it lasts. At least 15 trials should be good, but obviously, as many as you can do will be helpful. We'll need a few hundred to get reliable data.

    Gravity: The issue of how Gravity raises your effective accuracy is still unknown. How I would test it is by using Double Team once under Gravity. If it's actually -2 evasion for all, moves would have 4/3 their normal accuracy, but if it's * 5/3 accuracy, moves would have 3/4 * 5/3 = 5/4 their normal accuracy, meaning a 75% accurate move (Sleep Powder without CompoundEyes) would have 100% accuracy for -2 evasion, but 93.75% accuracy (possibly rounded to 93%) for * 5/3, as I suspect it is. If you ever miss Sleep Powder, it's not a -2 evasion stage change. What is known that it is not a +2 accuracy alteration, meaning it affects evasion or it is * 5/3 accuracy. The only difference between the two (* 5/3 accuracy or * 3/5 evasion) is possible rounding issues, but I don't think there is enough information on how accuracy works to determine that.

    Mimic: What can't it select?

    Pursuit: Does Pursuit against a faster U-Turner still have a chance to hurt itself in its confusion (assuming the Pursuiter is Confused, of course)?

    If a Pokemon holding a Choice Band / Choice Glasses / Choice Scarf uses Pursuit against a Pokemon switching out, they can no longer reselect a different move next turn, even if this happens on the Choice item holder's first turn in battle. They can change moves in the Japanese version of DP, but in cross-language battles, the English version's settings override it.

    Rage:
  5. Stall

    Stall

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    538
    Do we know if the same applies to burn?
  6. Draco Meteor

    Draco Meteor

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    47
    Pokemon do not take Burn damage outside of battle.
  7. Death Phenomeno

    Death Phenomeno I'm polite so just for clarity, when I'm cross I
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
    Messages:
    903
    I've got a question regarding Mimic's mechanics:

    Suppose that you have a Flareon and a Smeargle in a double battle as a team. Smeargle uses Flare Blitz on Flareon, therefore activating Flash Fire.

    If Flareon were to use Mimic on Smeargle on the same turn, would Mimic copy the move or would it fail?
  8. AJC

    AJC

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    2,271
    someone asked this on the previous thread but it wasn't answered before it got locked if one uses bug bite or pluck on a pokemon holding Jaboca berry does Bug bite/pluck effect take place first preventing the berry's 12.5% damage or does it still take the damage

    Testing this will require the berry hacked into existance

    but the test itself is simple

    use bug bite or pluck on a pokemon holding jaboca berry if damage does not happen then it pluck/bug bites effect happens before jaboca's
  9. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,150
    Assuming the mechanics are similar to Thief and Knock Off, you first do damage, then activate the effect, meaning you wouldn't get to Pluck or Bug Bite the berry because it would go off on you.

    Actually, thinking about it more, it's possible that Pluck's effect upon Plucking such a Berry is to make you take that much damage anyway.
  10. pear

    pear

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Messages:
    270
    I just tested the Pluck + Jaboca Berry with the help of the almighty AR. (I had hacked 999x of all the berries and hacked Trick onto a Staraptor.)

    I got a message saying that Staraptor stole and ate (used? My DS screen is broken so I don't know the exact text) the wild Onix's Jaboca Berry. There was no effect.

    As for Micle Berry, it doesn't seem to cause an accuracy stage boost like Acupressure (sometimes) does; the message given was "GIRATINA boosted the accuracy of its next move using its Micle Berry!" I exhausted Recycle's 10 PP and the Micle Berry never failed to boost. Therefore, Micle Berry does not cause a +1 or +2 boost to accuracy. It merely boosts the accuracy of the user's move once and only once. This requires that a statistical test be run if we want to figure out the actual accuracy boost.

    The item is lost. Shame, too: it would have been a nice gimmick for Muk.
  11. AJC

    AJC

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    2,271
    intresting...now try the flying resist berry if it bypasses jaboca does it also bypass that?
  12. jujuomi

    jujuomi

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,698
    I can test this out. I'm going to try this with focus sash'd wurmples and a charge beam serene grace Dunsparce. And some silverwind/ancient power 's from serene grace togepi line.
  13. pear

    pear

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Messages:
    270
    Coba Berry is not bypassed.
  14. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,150
    Quick Claw appears to activate closer to 25% of the time than 18.75%.

    If you KO a Pokemon with Pursuit, do they get to select what Pokemon to send out after fainting, or do they have to stick with whatever Pokemon they originally chose?
  15. jujuomi

    jujuomi

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,698
    This isn't an update on charge beam but I know from experience that poison heal does affect poison after battle. I know from EV training my Breloom. I thought it would be easier to Train if I kept healing.
  16. jujuomi

    jujuomi

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,698
    My weedle was hit by my togekiss's Ancient powers/ silver winds 8 times, and I got a "boost" in all stats. So I can assume that charge beam would do the same. Weedle does infact have shield dust.

    EDIT:
    I made my togekiss hold jaboca berry. My celable with magic guard used strength twice on togekiss. Not once did it activate. After the battle Togekiss still had Jaboca Berry.
  17. Tyranny of Tyranitar

    Tyranny of Tyranitar

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Messages:
    16
    I tested this one out since I run a pokemon with Life Orb on my team and wanted to know for myself.

    I tested the subject pokemon with and without the Life Orb item and confused it on switch-in (I did double battle with the Pachirisu twins). With or without Life Orb, the damage dealt to the subject pokemon's self changed little (With Life Orb 35 HP; W/o 37 HP). The part at the end where Life Orb usually would react when the move was used did not occur. Therefore, confusion's self damage does not activate the Life Orb. I can make a video of it on YouTube if you'd like if you wish to have evidence.
  18. Draco Meteor

    Draco Meteor

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    47
    Tested with Hustle Togekiss.

    Seismic Toss: Missed
    Night Shade: Hit 50/50 times
    Dragon Rage: Hit 40/40 times

    Will try to test Endeavor later.
  19. marrilpet

    marrilpet

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    594
    Tested Fling and Sticky Hold using Buneary and Shellos in a Double Battle. I Flung an Iron Ball at Shellos, the item was lost.
  20. AJC

    AJC

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    2,271

    needs to be testing on a enemy pokemon because some stuff doesn't trigger if its a ally in double battles
  21. TheMaskedNitpicker

    TheMaskedNitpicker Triple Threat
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,031
    I have one more question that I cannot test myself, and I apologize if it has been answered.

    When does Custap Berry activate? Does it activate as soon as the holder reaches 1/4 HP (like Salac Berry) or does it activate next turn when the boosted move is actually used (like Quick Claw)?

    For that matter, when does Micle Berry boost?

    Thanks very much.
  22. pear

    pear

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Messages:
    270
    Micle Berry triggers its effect the moment your HP drops, but the effect is only relevant when you attack. I'd wager that it's the same for Custap Berry as well.
  23. TheMaskedNitpicker

    TheMaskedNitpicker Triple Threat
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,031
    I trust your judgment, but could you please test when you get the chance? I've heard Custap activates at the time a Quick Claw would and it would make a huge difference in its effectiveness.
  24. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,150
    Sleep Talk: poccil or someone got Sleep Talk data directly from the game, and he said that Sleep Talk cannot choose, in particular,

    "Uproar
    Any two-turn attack"

    Now, I am unsure just what qualifies as a "two-turn attack". Is it moves like Solarbeam when they need a charge-up turn, moves like Hyper Beam with a cool-down turn, moves like Outrage, that last 2-3 turns of attacking, or what?



    About the Micle Berry, it sounds like AA is right. He claims it's a Lock-On effect for the next turn. Whether it has Lock-On's interaction with Protect and the like needs testing (and whether this is the effect it has). Actually, it sounds like it lasts until your next Attack.
  25. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,150
    Repost

    Two general mechanics questions (end-of-turn effects): (both of these must be tested in Wi-Fi / link battle, as the Battle Tower has different mechanics for this sort of thing)


    Colin: you know, we never got an answer to the one question about draws
    Colin: whether there is a check for deaths between end of turn effect tiers

    In other words, Sandstorm is going Blissey is brought to 1% after Celebi hits it with a Grass Knot, Celebi is about to faint to Perish Song. Does the game end in a draw, because both Pokemon faint that turn, or does Celebi win because the Sandstorm activates before Perish Song? Similarly, if both Pokemon are burned and have 1% left, is it a draw or does the slower Pokemon win?


    Graviton: Metagross uses Explosion, both Pokemon faint
    Graviton: Both people try to send in, say, Shedinja
    Graviton: And boht sides have SR down
    Graviton: Do both sides then pick a new Pokemon?
    Colin: Actually I asked something like this before
    Colin: And I remember what the verdict was
    Colin: the turn proceeds as normal, with end of turn effects taking place with no pokemon out
    Colin: (so reflect can still fade)
    Colin: then they both choose
    Colin: that was what I heard last time I asked at least
    Kanoa has joined Official Server.
    Colin: I think you were even involved in that discussion :p
    Colin: and that answer was provided by Hiplup, but it may have just been a guess
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)