Counters Discussion

The Counters Discussion occurs before the Movepool Discussions and is a continuation of the Threat Discussion. The difference between the two is that the Counters Discussion is more concrete, given that the Stat Spread, Typing, and Abilities of the Pokemon have been decided already, narrowing (or maybe widening) the list of potential checks and counters.

This stage of the process is not mandatory and may be skipped over if deemed unnecessary. However, if either the Topic Leader or CAP moderators believe that it should happen, then it will take place. If the project appears to have gotten off track since the Treats Discussion, then this stage may be needed to discuss and/or change previously made assessments.

The following guide questions will be posted in the OP of the Counter Discussion thread:

  • Given the combination of Typing, Ability, and Stat Spread now decided, which previously defined threats are considered hard counters to the CAP?

  • Which Pokemon are regarded as basic counters?

  • Which Pokemon are checks?

  • Are the Pokemon that are currently able to counter the CAP the Pokemon we want/need to counter the CAP, based on the concept?

  • If not, what must be done to handle these Pokemon? Is it unavoidable?

  • What Pokemon have arisen in discussions that were not brought up before? As in, are there Pokemon that counter/check this CAP that are not focused around its typing? Where should they be placed in the discussion?

  • Which Pokemon have been taken out of the Counters Discussion due to the Stat Spread and Ability?

  • Which Pokemon have moved from threats purely by typing to checks? To neutral match-ups?

  • Which Pokemon are now countered by the CAP fully? Which are checked by the CAP? Which have become neutral match-ups against the CAP?

  • With this set list of counters and checks, does this fulfill the concept's goal?

The end goal of the Counters discussion will be the basis for limiting Attacking Moves and non-Attacking Moves. A few Pokemon will be selected as Pokemon that should Hard Counter the CAP based on fulfilling three of six criteria:

  • Can switch into this CAP's strongest reliable STAB attacks at least three times from full health.

  • Can switch into this CAP's strongest possible coverage move at least twice from full health.

  • Can stall this CAP indefinitely using its recovery options either forcing the CAP out or healing enough that the stalling Pokemon can alternate between recovery and attacking.

  • Can OHKO or 2HKO the CAP with one of the moves on that Pokemon's relevant official Smogon moveset.

  • Can cripple this CAP with a permanent status move without risking a OHKO.

  • Can set up, use hazards, weather, or otherwise execute an opponent's strategy without risking a 2HKO.

Attacking Moves that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks under ordinary circumstances will not be allowed. Non-Attacking Moves such as stat boosters or Taunt that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks will not be allowed.

Note: If it would take both an attacking and a non-attacking move to alter a Hard Counter, whichever discussion comes first will limit the second discussion.

For example, if Dragon Dance + Close Combat would turn a Pokemon from a Hard Counter into a Check, where neither Dragon Dance nor Close Combat alone would do so (e.g. Only +1 LO CC OHKOs, but the counter is ordinarily faster and can OHKO the CAP after taking a +0 LO Hit from Close Combat) then if Dragon Dance is selected first, Close Combat cannot be selected. If Close Combat is selected first, then Dragon Dance cannot be selected.