Politoed and T-tar/Hippo have bulk, and can come in when their weather is really needed. Ninetales cannot safely switch in ot pretty much either weathers' abusers safely. No one's going to risk losing control over the weather by predicting an ice move from a water type. If you lose weather control on a sun team, you are usually finished. Sun is a great weather, it just needs a much better inducer
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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I have changed my stance on Rank completely. This thing needs to go. NOW. Its not so much Rank, but more its ability, Magic guard. I have to find a way to beat a 100% health Rank regardless of how many layers I stack. I have to resort to putting things like Choice Band Metagross on my stall teams just to beat it. I could use Spiritomb, but its a piece of shit against every team that DOESNT have rank.
Spiritomb can spinblock and his a pretty good revenger for latios due to sucker punch/pursuit. Other than that, yeah he is pretty lousy.
Once again, bulky Ninetales can take hits from politoed with no worries. Hydro Pump in the sun is less than impressive. Balloon tales can pivot into hippodown when you think he might use Earthqauke. You'll never switch into Tyranitar with Ninetales, but so what? Pokemon like Terakion, Gliscor, Poliwrath (don't laugh, it works), and Sawsbuck out of sun can handle him quite well and can be easily made to fit on a sun team.
For the record Choice Specs Modest Ninetales HP fighting is a guarenteed 2HKO on max/max careful tyranitar with stealth rock damage. As pathetic as this is, you realize that t-tar can't switch in to you anymore should you run it.
And yeah, sunny day on espeon is great for sun teams. I'm gonna start counting the tyranitars who switch into sunny day and get ohko'd by hp fighting without the sand boost.
Once again, bulky Ninetales can take hits from politoed with no worries. Hydro Pump in the sun is less than impressive. Balloon tales can pivot into hippodown when you think he might use Earthqauke. You'll never switch into Tyranitar with Ninetales, but so what? Pokemon like Terakion, Gliscor, Poliwrath (don't laugh, it works), and Sawsbuck out of sun can handle him quite well and can be easily made to fit on a sun team.
For the record Choice Specs Modest Ninetales HP fighting is a guarenteed 2HKO on max/max careful tyranitar with stealth rock damage. As pathetic as this is, you realize that t-tar can't switch in to you anymore should you run it.
And yeah, sunny day on espeon is great for sun teams. I'm gonna start counting the tyranitars who switch into sunny day and get ohko'd by hp fighting without the sand boost.
If you're running rain, run a specially bulky Toed with Encore and it will beat all non-lefties rank.
Now, how are people dealing with shell smash baton pass?
Power Swap Ninetales. Roar Ninetales. Power swap evo stone tangela. Overhead Throw Water absorb Poliwrath (seriously, don't laugh people). And chlorophyll jumpluff to encore the boost (people don't try to boost if they see a whimsicott in team preview).
Tales does need to worry about Toed being Specsed (what even is the right way to write that), but aside from that it can generally take water attacks fairly well since they're essentially neutral hits, upon switching into them.
Personally when the Gorebyss threat emerged, I ran a bunch of calcs for members of my team who could outspeed to see if they could OHKO it - two could. Scarfed base 86s and up can, or Chlorophyll mons in my case. If screens are set up then I will attempt to predict the Gorebyss switchin and bring in my counter is it enters, forcing it out or 2HKOing it. Not the most solid check but it's been working reasonably for me.
Personally when the Gorebyss threat emerged, I ran a bunch of calcs for members of my team who could outspeed to see if they could OHKO it - two could. Scarfed base 86s and up can, or Chlorophyll mons in my case. If screens are set up then I will attempt to predict the Gorebyss switchin and bring in my counter is it enters, forcing it out or 2HKOing it. Not the most solid check but it's been working reasonably for me.
Screens. This isn't 3rd gen, nobodies running Brick break.
Buys me time to come in and kill.
I dunno what to do if I saw a gorebyss behind screens though.
Curse Quagsire (with Unaware ofc) can kinda deal with Shell Smash Gorebyss + Chomp by setting up along side Gorebyss. Of course, if their main recipient is something like Latios, you will have issues.
here is a tip don't run stall
Shell Smash baton pass is usually handled by priority Scizor or Conkeldurr. However, I think the main culprit of being broken is definitely Reuniclus. You cannot switch safely into it an OHKO it, and it WILL OHKO you. With LO, it's packing about 500 unboosted special attack, and if it has Trick Room, it can outspeed anything with more than 58 speed. Not base 58, but 58. It also has great physical defense and can boost it's already obscene special defense. Sure, a lot of boosters can do that, but this one has Magic Guard. It can survive a sun boosted Adamant Blaziken Flare Blitz. That's too much, Reuni needs to go.
With that in mind, Brick Break's secondary effect may now be an actual reason to use it...
Gorebyss behind screens can be dealt with a number of ways. I've managed to lock it into Shell Smash with Trick, ruining it completely, and alternatively, a bulky Water can phaze it with Roar.
On another note, regarding Reuniclus: It's powerful, but not unreasonably so. Yes, you need a way to dent it, cripple it, or force it out. And you need a way to survive its attacks. None of that is unreasonable as an expectation in teambuilding.
I don't actually see reuniclus as often as I hear about him (but I do see him often). When I do, I know that I have to do my best to weasel a way to victory. I usually deal with bulky boosters by giving burns or toxics, or subseed stalling them, something, anything to chip away at them... That magic guard just makes reuniclus so threatening to deal with, and tack on recover with its awesome bulk and I just sit and look silly as he sets up on me. I have to act fast as soon as I see him come in.
My main way of handling it is to hold off on my use of spore till I see him come in. Other than that, I tend to try to trick him a choice band/scarf. But still, hes waaay threatening.
I don't want to say hes too much for OU (because I dont really think he is), but he is definitely one of my top threats. There are ways around him... just have to play it smart if you don't exactly have a counter for him. Team preview definitely helps me a lot on this fact.
My main way of handling it is to hold off on my use of spore till I see him come in. Other than that, I tend to try to trick him a choice band/scarf. But still, hes waaay threatening.
I don't want to say hes too much for OU (because I dont really think he is), but he is definitely one of my top threats. There are ways around him... just have to play it smart if you don't exactly have a counter for him. Team preview definitely helps me a lot on this fact.
Scizor didn't cause playstyles to become completely screwed over. Did Scizor ever cause people to make statements like this?
As said 1,000,000 times before, there is no rule that says full stall has to be a completely viable strategy.
What strategies are viable and what aren't has been constantly changing every Gen since Gen I, this is just one of those shifts. Even without Rank, stall is mediocre this Gen, Rank is just the final nail in the coffin for stall's old ways. If you want to run stall, you HAVE to pack something to stop Rank. If you don't want to pack Spiritomb or something, then don't run stall at all.
What strategies are viable and what aren't has been constantly changing every Gen since Gen I, this is just one of those shifts. Even without Rank, stall is mediocre this Gen, Rank is just the final nail in the coffin for stall's old ways. If you want to run stall, you HAVE to pack something to stop Rank. If you don't want to pack Spiritomb or something, then don't run stall at all.
I won't say that Reuniclus is not a top-OU pokemon because it is but it really annoys me when people complain about it being OP and yet flat out refuse to use something that counters it handily or think that using something that counters it automatically strengthens their argument that it is indeed uber. Personally I've been using CB Escavalier to deal with it and choiced Latios (and other things. CB Megahorn is strong man) but apparently that's too niche/gimmick to be acceptable.
As for being a fan of Rain Stall, I run both Parasect (duh) and Spiritomb (Choice banded with trick). I also sometimes run a Vaporeon with roar, or a Kabutops (with breakable armor/swords dance/focus sash, which works great for flipping onto the offensive). Each of these things actually work pretty well against opposing Reuniclus (as long as he isn't toxic'd I can get a spore off on him).
Obviously this isn't a PURE stall team, its a RAIN stall team... regardless I never seem to have problems against him.
Honestly, as scary as Reuniclus is when it begins to set up, it isn't impossible to handle. Just got to play it smart. As I said previously, thank god for team previews, because when I see that green blob, I start planning on when to lure it in for spore or a trick.
Obviously this isn't a PURE stall team, its a RAIN stall team... regardless I never seem to have problems against him.
Honestly, as scary as Reuniclus is when it begins to set up, it isn't impossible to handle. Just got to play it smart. As I said previously, thank god for team previews, because when I see that green blob, I start planning on when to lure it in for spore or a trick.
I found another check for Reuniclus. Gengar 252 life orb modest actually has a 100% chance to ohko Reuniclus. (100.9% - 119.3%) With Jolly it has a high chance of ohko. (92.0% - 109.0%) You might wanna notice that I said check. I know that the trick room set "outspeeds" and ohkos with psychic/psycho shock.
Anyway, I'm a rather large fan of semistall. Now before I continue on I have run a CB Bug Bite scizor however, before that I had a nattorei in it's place. with both pokes I never really had trouble against Reuniclus. While it is true that CB scizor took alot of the pressure off of my battles against reuniclus before that it was rather easy for me to play around reuniclus. I simply figured out which set it had and played smart against it. I've never actually had trouble against Reuniclus. You just have to be prepared for it when it comes. If your not prepared for it with pokemon prepare for it with a strategy. It's not that hard to take down Reuniclus.
Anyway, I'm a rather large fan of semistall. Now before I continue on I have run a CB Bug Bite scizor however, before that I had a nattorei in it's place. with both pokes I never really had trouble against Reuniclus. While it is true that CB scizor took alot of the pressure off of my battles against reuniclus before that it was rather easy for me to play around reuniclus. I simply figured out which set it had and played smart against it. I've never actually had trouble against Reuniclus. You just have to be prepared for it when it comes. If your not prepared for it with pokemon prepare for it with a strategy. It's not that hard to take down Reuniclus.
Although thats impressive, the problem here is that by the time Gengar comes in, Reuniclus will have 1 calm mind under its belt, maybe 2, and can survive Gengar's assault and OHKO back. I know you said its a check and not a counter, but still, its not going to be doing 100% damage with a calm mind in.
The only way Gengar could stop Reun is if they came in together at the same time in a double switch, or if Reun came in on a Gengar after a kill. I dont know if anyone would actually pull a Reuniclus in on a Gengar.
I'll admit that if you get to +2 your pretty much screwed special check wise. (Unless you run cmroar latias) but even at +1 Genar will still do enough damage to at least cripple reuniclus. (67.9% - 79.7%) At that damage Reuniclus cant properly recover stall to win against gengar. If it takes it head on and gets dealt that damage it's gonna be easily revenge killed. the most it could do at +1 is switch out. Getting to +2 is pretty much getting screwed with your gengar but the same can be said for most special attackers.
Countering Reuniclus with spiritomb is kind of like "countering" inconsistent and shell smash gorebyss with perish song. Both are specifically useful only against certain things and are useless pretty much everywhere else.
I personally don't find him broken, just hard to deal with. Trick pokemon don't counter him by the way, they only force him out. Unless you're like me and use something along the lines of switcheroo manectric, the trick will be telegraphed from a mile away and they'll either start attacking or just switch out and set up later.
And yeah, weatherless full stall is exceptionally hard to fun if you ask me. Between rapid spin excadrill, magic gaurd shinpora and reuniclus, Bulky boosters, the generally favored offensive playstyle in gen5, etc...it hardly seems worth it. I rarely even see a blissey on balanced teams anymore.
I personally don't find him broken, just hard to deal with. Trick pokemon don't counter him by the way, they only force him out. Unless you're like me and use something along the lines of switcheroo manectric, the trick will be telegraphed from a mile away and they'll either start attacking or just switch out and set up later.
And yeah, weatherless full stall is exceptionally hard to fun if you ask me. Between rapid spin excadrill, magic gaurd shinpora and reuniclus, Bulky boosters, the generally favored offensive playstyle in gen5, etc...it hardly seems worth it. I rarely even see a blissey on balanced teams anymore.
If Reuniclus gets Tricked a Choice item, it can easily be forced out, making it lose any boosts it may have acquired. If it comes back in, it won't be able to set up, and will have an extremely difficult time healing. It can still hit hard, especially if it got Specs, but those hits aren't nearly as threatening without the ability to switch moves and without its support moves backing them up.
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