np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

[Kejmur]

After reading this frankly astounding and well written post, among others, I think I'm changing my stance on this whole Aegislash debate (get it stance change ayyy). But seriously, I'm more or less neutral on Aegislash's presence in OU, and what really hit me was Synchronation pointing out that a meta where we just ban everything isn't a meta he wants to play, and that we cant keep applying the rules of old, more stable metagames to this mess called ORAS. Apart from the truly broken stuff like Lando I, we really shouldn't be this picky with the stuff we're given and ban stuff cuz we can and its difficult to play around. I would reccomend more tiers, but that's just me. But we can't just kick something out of OU that is stable but makes life harder for a lot of other mons; Arceus knows if we did, Talonflame and Lando T would be in the shadow realm right now.
By the same token however, and to be quite blunt, I don't give a damn if Aegislash goes back to ubers. I'd compare it to buying a New 3DS if you already have an older functional model. You'd like a brand new one, but what are you really missing if you don't buy it that you can't already do in your old model? The same goes for OU. If Aegi stays, that's all fine and dandy IMO, and if he goes there is no massive opportunity that was missed.

Now lets change this thread to Lando suspect damnit, we already partially changed it to a KS one.

I also aim this post towards Synchronasion obviously as this quote is aimed into it, but I think we already start to see the main problem with balancing metagames - more and more new Pokemon show up each generation making preparing for all of them obviously impossible in future (if near ? we'll see) and it starts to ALREADY slowly show up. I think this is far more important issue to apply and discuss now then potential Aegislash suspect test.

What I don't like about Aegislash suspect test now is that we try to avoid this issue by introducing one overcentralizing threat avoiding inevitable. It is overcentralizing, no one deny it, but I still think this is the cheapest and easiest way to fix the problem, which exist. While it would remedy the problem at the moment of course, is it really fair to literally eliminate half of metagame with 1 Pokemon which you should run literally on all teams as otherwise it's a total waste ? It's kind of like a kick into the balls of players which prefer to be more creative. I feel like it's not exactly the solution we all look for. Plus when we take into account that it runs around with other controversial powerhouses make this suspect test less credible IMO as I feel like it's not a metagame which we will keep intact for long, shifting it up again in potential future, making metagame balancing even longer and time consuming process. I really feel like we deal with lesser evil here to fix other evil things. As I said I don't like it.

It was said by more then few people (not in this thread) but in overall I think the old approach of throwing everything new to OU and balance things out is approach which I don't think it works anymore. It just take too much time to test everything out. Personally I would before suspecting Aegislash throw out few most overcentralizing, controversial and called broken Pokemon (Landorus, yeah, you) out of metagame AT ONCE and see how it looks after. Most obvious candidates at start would be Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria (not broken IMO, but truly centralizing force) and Landorus-I (list MAY be extended with stuff like Mega Sableye, Mega Diance or Keldeo, etc. but yeah, not really neccesary IMO) and see how metagame shapes after. If we like it we MAY introduce slowly each threat first with potential Aegislash in as well. Why few at once ? Because it would significantly lessen the burden of handling many threats while STILL give some potential suspects to keep thing lively around metagame and avoid it from being stale with potential new suspect tests in future. Also I think it would be more clear in future suspects to see what is truly broken or not without knowing that there are few other potential broken/controversial Pokemon to keep current suspect in check. In other words we would avoid some potential 'broken beat broken' situation which makes suspect less credible and easier to analyze without many controversial obstacles to cloud potential judgement later on. I think MINIMUM we should aim for is Mega Metagross and Landorus-I at the moment and see after what happens. I mention this idea here as first post clearly mention that this Aegislash suspect test is up because OU right now is a metagame which is too match-up reliant and you can't cover every single threat. Aegislash DOES fix up that problem, no one deny it. Although here comes the important question - is Aegislash really a good solution to fix this ? As I mention - is it really worth it to literally delete half of the meta just to fix the issue with TRULY controversial candidate ?

On King Shield - what I don't like about this is that it eliminates the most unique and interesting aspect of Aegislash while I'm on a side that Kings Shield is really annoying, you may still outsmart opponents like in case of protect - with a smart switch. Sure, prediction works both ways, but you may STILL attempt to play around it. Also main problem with this that we can't truly test a metagame with No King Shield Aegislash, which kind of make this idea controversial to say at least. So yeah, this shouldn't show up unless we clearly get a suspect test metagame with No King Shield Aegislash.

On Aegislash itself - I agree it's not truly broken by itself (I still don't call overcentralization as a criteria to make something banned, some sort of overcentralization will exist in all metas, although in this case it is extreme, but still not a fan of this one at all) although it's hella strong as support mon (that pursuit trapping) which make other controversial/potentially broken Pokemon even stronger. Aegislash in the end deserved suspect test, especially when we take into account how close last ban voting was for it, but I can't help but to think that timing for this test just isn't right.

Is Aegislash broken on it's own ? Nope, IMO it's not. It's brilliant Pokemon - it's versatile, hits hard and may take heavy hit(s). It's soo good that there is no reason to not run it, which kills lots of creativity which is the main problem here I have with it. But this reason shouldn't be the reason to ban something out, but this why I dislike his introduction. But I hope people won't use this as the main reason to ban it once they match voting criteria. But this is still Aegislash suspect test and on his own it's truly strong Pokemon, but IMO not broken. Or at least managable enough to keep it in metagame. It MAY be under support criteria, but here comes that 'broken makes thing even broken' thing which I can't help but notice (although Aegislash is so strong on it's own that this argument may not even hold its water and this is why potential judgement on his 'brokeness' may be somewhat clouded here) and wonder if this is truly ideal environment to test it out with other behemots like Landorus-I, MegaMetagross, Keldeo, etc. around which this guy greatly by coincidence support.

 

[MikeDawg]

Based off of gen 5, my personal position is a very liberal one when it comes to early bans. There is so much time before we have to deal with a 7th generation that I see no reason not to ban first, ask questions later (ie. retest).

Of course, that doens't mean to quickban everything that is a top-tier threat. But on more controversial ones, I think that banning is the best course of action. If that means that gardevoir and pinsir become an issue, then they will also get banned. Broken threats should not be kept to check broken threats. The power creep in gen 6 is incredible and if an ideal meta is hoped to be acheived, I think that reducing that creep is a neccesity.

People are so worried about shaking up the meta, but we are only a few months in. Postponing what could could inevitably contribute to a poor metagame is only asking for a repeat of gen 5 ou. Simply banning while there is still time, and then possibly retesting later once the tier is settled down, is, in my opinion, by far the safest bet.


tl;dr: We can fix mistakes that we make early on very easily. It is impossible to fix mistakes that aren't addressed until the end.

Loling

Anyway, shit. People get so bitchy in suspect threads for no reason. Calm down.

I'm still not too fond of Aegislash. Preface:

Reposting this here from the non-VR thread.

So, hearing how close the Aegislash vote is and seeing how many people are still against banning it I'd figure I'd make a last stand for the pro-ban side and see if I can sway any more opinions.

Aegislash is, in my opinion, broken. It has unmatched versatility, a stat spread pretty much unheard of, can do pretty much whatever it wants to do and has all the right moves to do so. On top of that there's King's Shield which is probably one of the main things that generated so much "hate" towards Aegislash. But this isn't about hate or any vendetta or "Aegislash is so annoying ban plz" from the pro-ban side (at least not from the people I talked to); this is our attempt at making the metagame better and more enjoyable and getting something broken out of the tier.

On top of being blessed with incredible stats, incredible typing (you can say all you want about how it has 4 big weaknesses, it has way more resistances not to mention three immunities to make up for that and the raw stats to pretty much shrug off every neutral attack) and all the right tools it needs to do its job, Aegislash hinders the development of the metagame. It sounds like an extremely good Pokemon and, even when you take its versatility into account, it isn't necessarily broken. However, what pushes Aegislash over the edge for the edge for me is how it prevents the metagame from developing. And I'm not talking about any of those other arguments about people wanting to use Reuniclus or Hawlucha and Aegislash making them worse, I'm talking about development in a broader sense, one that defines the whole future of XY OU. I'm talking about Aegislash taking the metagame into its grasp by being the most controlling, most pivotal and one of the most powerful and versatile threats in the metagame and thus hindering future suspects that might potentially be broken from getting suspected by giving the false illusion that these Pokemon are good for the metagame. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that the metagame, in its current state, is not desirable. If you disagree, then fine with me, but I and many other people think it is not. People are afraid that the banning of Aegislash will drive Pokemon such as Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross to the front and thus invalidate any and all stall teams. While that is not only irrelevant to whether or not Aegislash is broken, it is also a completely baseless assumption and will probably proven to be false in due time. Between Stall with Aegislash being almost non existant in the first place (KratosMana being one of the few exceptions of a stall player who used an Aegislash against a team with Heracross and had it work out; had the Heracross carried Earthquake the game would have been over at that point as well), it's also a terrible attempt at justifying something like Aegislash in the tier. Yes, Aegislash does stop them pretty reliably, but if that Medicham or that Gardevoir really wants to get past you then they will, whether it's through coverage moves or just plain team support. And I'm not talking about ridiculously overspecific team support just concentrated on Aegislash here, I'm talking about Life Orb Thundurus chipping away at your Aegislash with Thunderbolt because nothing else wants to deal with it thus paving the way for any of these sweepers to do work. Aegislash's absence not only doesn't make these Pokemon significantly more common (come on, 2 weeks of suspect laddering aren't enough to tell whether something has become increasingly more common, the metagame will settle down eventually. Not to mention that Medicham/Heracross/Gardevoir have been on the rise by themselves recently as they are renowned as the most effective Pokemon when trying to handle stall; Aegislash's absence did not influence them to a great deal), but Stall teams always has trouble preparing for those Pokemon either way. There are very few Pokemon that can even hope to stand up to these three and Aegislash doesn't really change that as it, like I said before, doesn't even influence their usage by a great deal.

Now, for the real reason why I think Aegislash is broken. While stuff such as its stats, versatility, King's Shield etc etc make it a ridiculously good Pokemon, that's not outright enough to push it to Uber. However, Aegislash by itself impacts the future of the metagame negatively in a very severe way. With Aegislash around, there really isn't much of a case you can make for anything else getting banned. While Mega Mawile and Charizard X might get banned, we will still be stuck in almost the same metagame as we are now, and that is all because Aegislash's presence prevents Pokemon such as Thundurus from being suspected and possibly deemed broken (I'm not outright saying Thundurus is broken here but, fact is, once the metagame settles down and people realize that MGard/MHera/MMedi are only marginally better than they have been before, it will be the same as it is now: an undesirable state). With Aegislash gone, Pokemon that deserve to be suspected but don't have a chance in hell of getting suspected with Aegislash around (let's face it, a metagame with Aegislash around but without Thundurus around would be terrible; no one wants to lock themselves into Stone Edge with Scarf Terrakion to kill Mega Charizard X and give Aegislash a free turn in the process. Thundurus is the catch-all stop for sweepers and, with Aegislash around, thats the one most people will elect to use and there's no way you could make a case for it getting banned). So what it all boils down to if Aegislash isn't getting banned is that we will be stuck in the same indefinite state of this very same metagame minus a few Pokemon maybe. Like I said before, I, and many other people, think that this metagame is in no way in a desirable state. If you disagree, then feel free to vote Do Not Ban on Aegislash. But the point is that, to become a better metagame, we need to start somewhere. This somewhere has to be the root of all evil, the one thing holding back all the future suspects and the future of XY OU. Aegislash, although it seemingly "balances" the metagame just clouds everything with the illusion of there being balance but, at the end, we will be stuck with this same, undesirable metagame. If you want change, if you truly want to make XY OU a better metagame, then I urge you to vote Ban on Aegislash. Again, this is not an outcry because we think Aegislash is annoying or "restricts versatility", it is quite the opposite. We want to make a better metagame and believe that, with Aegislash around, this will not be possible.

We believe that Aegislash and its effect on the metagame is rotten to the core.

This is, in my name and all the other pro-ban people, a last desperate outcry to rid this tier of Aegislash, the core of all bad holding the metagame down.

The meta is definitely better now than it was before, but idk if that makes Aegislash anymore desirable to have.

It's not like it got any weaker. Metagross, gallade, pidgeot, altaria, diancie, sometimes lopunny, the mega latis, megabro, p much everything (at least the good majority) new hates it.

I haven't the time nor will to weed through this thread, but I assume that the call to arms argument now (because do we really need another 100 pages talking about whether it is too strong as a pokemon? Read back to the last suspect test, because it all applies here exvept perhaps moreso in this meta) is that it's good to have something that can easily handle all of these new threats.

But that's p much the same argument from the anti-ban side as last time. If these mons are too strong, then ban them (owait. Megagross was already suspected hmm). Still of the firm belief that checking stuff is a bad reason to keep a mon, especially one that hostorically holds the balls of the meta in its fist. This is even more tru beacuse new mons that it "has" to check.

People seem to be generally fine with the current meta. It's def better than aegi meta (all currently banned threats included). Part of that is believing that threats can be handled for the most part and everything is pretty knock knock good good. i don't see a reason to bring back aegi, a mon that historically played a large part in imo ruining the meta.

Lots of this is based on opinions, particularly those pertaining to the original ban, so mileage may vary, but i think that aegi should rip


Also sidenote. Aegislash is meta-defining, no doubt. Since this is a test that will p much completely alter the meta (and a different meta is a big part of people's opinions), idt that a typical suspect test ladder will indicate anything legitimate or substantial about any meta shifts but nmp. As such, any "look! The new meta ______, so aegi should come back!" Arguments are dumb af.


While we're here: Googly that's a dumb post

 

[feen]

So, your argument is that the meta is stale right now, so we need to add something to the meta that will cause the meta to be centralized around it, dictating what will be on everyone's teams just as surely as whatever's good in the current meta does? Well, that'll liven the meta up a bit...for about 3 or 4 days after the suspect test ends. And on the 5th day after the test ends...then what? We'll be back to seeing the same teams over and over again. Different teams from what we have now, perhaps, but the Aegi meta will have the same problems in repetitive team design (if not even worse) that the current meta does. Making the meta less stale is important, but unbanning something that has enormous potential to centralize the tier around itself in order to do this is a VERY temporary solution to that problem. And once that solution runs out of juice, then we're stuck again, in a meta we dislike for the same types of reasons, and we'll have to wait even LONGER before we get another opportunity to fix it. I've made a number of posts about how I feel Aegislash is broken, and how it doesn't really hurt the viability of the current top offenders, and I stand by these posts, but I'd like it to be known that I am not so stubborn as to think there could never be a situation when we could unban stuff from Ubers. But as many others have said, what we need right now are BANS not UNBANS.

I didn't mean that the metagame will be fresh after Aegi becomes OU again, I said it'll centralize the metagame again, each team having an Aegislash and an Aegi Counter. But Aegislash checks so many things that are broken in OU, and it causes too many 50/50s. You said that a centralized metagame is bad. All of UU teams have a way to deal with Crocune, and Mega Aerodactyl. RU Teams need something to break Cresselia. NU teams had Fire Spam Checks. They all centralized the meta. The OU meta right now have a Lando and a lando check on almost every team. This is what makes them S class. On the other hand, 50/50s are a thing I'm against of, Aegislash causes too much of them and being on the losing end might cost you the game. That's probably the only reason why Aegi 'seems' broken to me. Now don't give me the stats because the stats depend solely on the 50/50s, hence being a huge part in the battle.

I'm still leaning to unban side, unless you convince me.

 

[Kiyo]

I didn't mean that the metagame will be fresh after Aegi becomes OU again, I said it'll centralize the metagame again, each team having an Aegislash and an Aegi Counter. But Aegislash checks so many things that are broken in OU, and it causes too many 50/50s. You said that a centralized metagame is bad. All of UU teams have a way to deal with Crocune, and Mega Aerodactyl. RU Teams need something to break Cresselia. NU teams had Fire Spam Checks. They all centralized the meta. The OU meta right now have a Lando and a lando check on almost every team. This is what makes them S class. On the other hand, 50/50s are a thing I'm against of, Aegislash causes too much of them and being on the losing end might cost you the game. That's probably the only reason why Aegi 'seems' broken to me. Now don't give me the stats because the stats depend solely on the 50/50s, hence being a huge part in the battle.

I'm still leaning to unban side, unless you convince me.

I wouldn't exactly say the things you listed 'centralize' their respective tiers, and they certainly don't do it to the extent that Aegislash does. While you do have to run CroCune checks in UU, ways to break Cress in RU, etc. you don't see every single team running Suicune and Cresselia, respectively. You're effectively putting yourself at a disadvantage by not using Aegislash, and thats where the centralization comes in. Everyone will be using an Aegislash, because (except on some rare occasions) there's a huge opportunity cost to not using it. In the case of respective tiers having common teambuilding requirements (crocune check / wallbreaker) that's simply good teambuilding, you're not worse off for not using a Suicune; however, in the case of Aegislash you are directly choosing to put yourself at a disadvantage by not running it, that's not good teambuilding, that's a threat centralizing a metagame.

tl;dr good teambuilding and centralization aren't the same thing

 

[zbr]

Glad to see this is finally happening. Aegislash never should've been Uber in the first place.

This post is just going to get lost in amongst the others on this thread, but I don't care. This is just what I think about the main arguments I'm seeing opposing Aegislash's return to OU.

not gonna let it get lost, cause im going to to try and explain what i think is wrong with this post ;;

But it's overcentralising
After playing a bit on the suspect ladder, I can say with confidence that Aegislash won't be as overcentralising as it was before. Alot of people are using it right now, but that's because it's a suspect test... for Aegislash! Once the hype dies down, I honestly don't think it'll be as popular as it once was.
Heck, even if it is overcentralising, the same thing can be said for a number of Pokemon, both in ORAS and in previous metas.

there wont be any "it wont be as popular as it once was" for aegi because it's too good of a mon to pass up when it comes to making teams. the reason why we released it is because we want to test and see how well and good it would perform in the current metagame in which there are loads of powerful threats but not enough things to blanket check said threats. aegi is one of the rare few mons (id argue it's the only mon) that possess traits that allow it to be an extremely versatile blanket check to a good amount of threats in the metagame as well as being a powerful threat on it's own. the opportunity cost to using aegislash is so neglible to the point where it isn't hard to say you won't encounter it 7/7 games you play in one 128 man tournament. so what does that mean? OU is already infamous for being infested with "(insert op mon or core here + (insert 2 op mon check here) + 3 filler" mirror matches and with aegi back in the mix, the problem of matchup and luck will always be outweighing the skill factor, and that is something we have been putting in the utmost effort to remove. so why worsen the situation now?

But it makes a bunch of mons less viable, and limits team building
So do other Pokemon, especially those with unique type combos. Heatran and Rotom-W come to mind.
Why do some Charizard-X run Earthquake? Heatran.
Why do some Mega-Gyarados run Earthquake? Rotom-W.
Why do some Manaphy run Psychic? Mega-Venusaur.
The metagame has adapted to deal with these threats, and it will adapt to deal with Aegi too if we let it. Yes, it might mean you have to run Shadow Ball on your Mega-Gardevoir, or Earthquake on your Mega-Pinsir, but that's just the way it is.

that's because said mons have no other solid ways of dealing with that particular threat without removing something else on their already packed slot. zard-x runs eq in general not only because it doesn't want to lose tran 1v1 but also because it helps avoiding contact with fatchomp. m-dos uses eq to deal with the otherwise equally annoying keldeo. that's not even adaptation, that's just selecting the right coverage such that you don't get entirely shitted on by one particular threat. but when it comes to aegislash, you can't even say "the metagame has adapted to deal with these threats, and it will adapt to deal with Aegi too if we let it" simply because what you are doing is synonymous to putting a cat and a mouse together in one room and hope they they will adapt to be friends. what you are doing is not just limiting team building, but skewering the game state more towards the line of "best aegi player wins" for the sheer fact of how incredibly versatile aegislash actually is.

But it's OP
No it's not. 150/150 offensive stats are impressive, sure, but nothing out of the ordinary really. And when its most powerful STABs only have 80 BP, its power is actually quite underwhelming.

this was so commonly seen in the xy suspect test threads. see, aegi has a few things up it's sleeves. one - decent offensive stab, being ghost, whose resists are uncommon in ou. two - it has a very good defensive typing, movepool and bulk that it can utilize to it's advantage. three - it actually has a good way to boost itself. all of these allows it to add up to become a threat that is capable of assuming close to any role it would wish to assume. subtox, sd, mixed, purely special with ks, offensive wall breaker, pursuit trapping, offensive pivot are just some of the sets it can run and even then it can still run some incredible set that catch people off guard even when they are so overwhelmingly prepared for aegi (custap dbond, magrise and whatnot). saying it's not OP because it has a decently powered offensive move is hilarious because you can even let it run WP just to be able to change your "underwhelming power" to something that can overwhelm even fully prepared teams.

But 50/50's
Sorry but this argument is complete bullshit. People need to stop complaining about 50/50's because they don't exist. The game is full of these kinds of scenarios, but nothing is as simple as a 50/50 (well except confusion hax). You can actually take advantage of the fact that Aegislash is forced to use Kings Shield to change forms. Don't ban Kings Shield and don't ban Aegislash.

i'd advise you to watch this video

and understand that 50/50s actually do exist and is unfortunately very very prevalent when it comes to aegi. it's more of a coinflip than anything any no one really wants that to happen. aegi is never "forced" to use king shield unless it's down to an extreme 1v1 last mon scenario which , even though isn't uncommon, doesn't happen alot.

Finally, I just want to say that anyone who has a problem handling Aegislash just hasn't learned how to deal with it yet. There are plenty of ways you can handle Aegi, so maybe try them out before deciding it belongs in Ubers.

the problem is at what cost. sure i can handle aegi but how many mons must i let take unnecessary damage first before being able to "handle him".

 

[Metalhand]

I got to ask-why everyone so sure that if aegislash will come be to OU he will be on almost every team?
Even in XY his usage never passed the 24-25%, which is completly okay for high level mon. While being amazing he still not at a level of outclassing everything, not to mention he always short on something(offensive wears down easily and lose bulk, defensive is underwhelming in attacking power).
It just seem based of nothing to think he will get such a ridiculous usage.

 

[Magis4Life]

On the other hand, 50/50s are a thing I'm against of, Aegislash causes too much of them and being on the losing end might cost you the game. That's probably the only reason why Aegi 'seems' broken to me. Now don't give me the stats because the stats depend solely on the 50/50s, hence being a huge part in the battle.

I'm still leaning to unban side, unless you convince me.

Personally, I don't find the 50/50s coinflip mentality to be the issue with aegislash and still don't understand why this is in particular the issue for you regarding aegi as, this has been noted numerous times now, a lot of other mons enforce 50/50s itself. Obviously a lot of people bring up kings shield as the reason why this is so relevant for aegi, but honestly I don't believe this to necessarily be the case either as not only demonstrated in the higher ladder but rather I find kings shield to be the icing on the cake so to speak. If anything, what distinguishes aegislash from the other mons enforcing 50/50s (pursuit trap, suckered punch, etc.) from aegislash is its characteristics, I.e. its excellent offensive/defensive typing, excellent coverage that enables it to smack a lot of the tier, its initial high defenses prior to attacking, etc. It essentially has numerous opportunities to fire off its powerful attacks due to the traits that distinguishes itself to the point where the opportunity cost in even making a prediction is not as high as other threats; in other words, aegislash can be played rather aggressively without much issue due to the number of things it can blanket check or hell its amazing defenses and godly defense typing alone that makes it initially have more of an advantage from the 50/50s it causes. I've seen a lot of people bring up 50/50 coinflips as a main issue but I find that to merely scratch the surface of what makes aegislash arguably unhealthy for the tier. A lot of good points however that I read touch on the fact that aegislash bears the support characteristic that makes aegislash borderline banworthy (I don't find aegislash to be broken on its own), in the support it provides to already really amazing and even possibly already unhealthy mons like lando-i further fostering matchup issues that is the issue with the meta game in the first place. Overall, I find the coinflips that aegislash initiates to reflect its traits already mentioned that enable it to be played aggressively with rather little opportunity cost that should come from playing aggressively in the first place. Kings shield further enhances this distinction and i find this be a part of what aegislash so dangerous especially when paired with other really amazing mons in the meta.

 

[Tramuntana]

Sorry but considering KS a coinflip is just ridiculous. Unless the Aegislash player is choosing whether or not to use it on any turn randomly, or it tries to use it twice in a row, the moment will usually be decided by the most skilled player, IE the one who wins the prediction war (and no, by personal expecience, using KS is never safe, there are a LOT of sweepers that can use the free turn to boost and oneshot your team if they predict correctly the KS). The exceptions would be the moves who can ignore KS or the situation who never gets taken into consideration: If Aegislash has received prior damage, wich considering he is a pivot, has no recovery and is relatively easy to check (anything with a stong fire blast, EQ or earth power and a bit of bulk will usually scare him out).
we always see "oh, but aegi can KO gardevoir on the spot". but what happens if garde switches out after sending you WoW or shadow ball?
aegi is still weakened and probably won't be able to switch in again. hydreigon and gothitelle in BW worked similarly. the best way to respond it was to hammer them with a strong move to ensure they won't annoy you anymore because of that prior damage and then force them out.
Yes, it is possible it will get a switch in for free later, but that prior damage will still limit what he can stay in on.
but let's say he has support from wishers. well, try to not let him take too many of those wishes and you will be fine, and just be carefull to NOT clicka move it can enter into when he comes for the wish. as i remember, every counters section of wishers recommended this way to go to prevent the wisher to do his job efficiently.
still have problems? well, in my mind there are four hard counters who aren't completely useless in OU: crocune, CM mega sableye, bulky mega scizor and defensive gliscor

and that's it all that should be said in my opinion, if YOU know it threatens your team, you keep giving him free switches and do not try to wear it down, nor you consider to apply any emergency solution or pack a dedicated counter (like nobody carries steel or fairy walls just to deter things like latios from going wild with DM, or a flying resist for CB talon), then you should deserve to loose to it imao. it's like saying "mm, chansey somehow walls my whole team, but i cannot include taunt or a powerfull fighting on my team, it's truly OP (i hope everyone understands that example is exagerated, chans is very easy to break through)"


googly, i can guarantee you that your post won't be ignored, your point of view is not as rare as some aegi haters want us to think

and kiyo, in the XY early meta, before the ban, only aroung 30% teams used Aegislash. Wait until the hype falls a bit and see, if we dropped flygon to RU (which we should, regardless of how many noobs use it) people would start to add it to their teams like candy, just to test what it can do, and months later realize it's not as good as they hyped, and the usage of flygon would drop. once again, remember early XY and early ORAS, when EVERYONE used things like mega bannette, mega houndoom and goodra or mega sceptile, mega camerupt and mega sableye just to test them? or when DW Serperior got released? i got tired to see them, seriously, and their usage in their respective tiers have dropped a lot since then...

 

[zbr]

I got to ask-why everyone so sure that if aegislash will come be to OU he will be on almost every team?
Even in XY his usage never passed the 24-25%, which is completly okay for high level mon. While being amazing he still not at a level of outclassing everything, not to mention he always short on something(offensive wears down easily and lose bulk, defensive is underwhelming in attacking power).
It just seem based of nothing to think he will get such a ridiculous usage.

because one of the main reason why we are testing him is due to the fact that he has overwhelming amount of qualities that allow him to not only be a blanket check to more than 60% of the meta but also have the offensive presence to threaten as well as the versatility to run various different sets. the opportunity cost of running aegi over something else that fulfills similar roles is almost negligible as aegi will almost always be able to pressure your opponent in one way or another. just because he is short on something doesn't mean he doesn't fulfill that's role's duty well. for example, usually, the main aim of defensive aegi is to tank hits, weaken opposing mons/checks and act as a pivot to the team. this is something that defensive aegi excels at doing since it doesn't need any form of offensive investment because it already has a very good offensive stab as well as a good offensive stat to work with in blade form. on the other hand, the main aim of offensive aegi can usually range from wearing down walls to sweeping and it can capably do so because it has a great defensive typing as well as being able to set up reliably for it to sweep (wp works for gimmicky sets too). hence, the reason as to why we "assume" that he will be on almost every team is because the reason why we re-suspect it is that we hope it could provide a reliable and all-round check to many of the top tiered threats, and provide stability to the tier as it's often plagued by the problem of matchup.

 

[Kurona]

Before I start this post I want to say that I don't want anyone coming back at me saying that Aegis doesn't fit the definitions and descriptions I'm about to give. I don't feel I've played enough games on the suspect ladder to have a good feel of Aegis, I'm just talking completely about the theory and mentality here. So for that sake, just imagine Aegislash is over-centralizing whether that turns out to be true or not - I'm simply addressing the mentality and theory here rather than if Aegislash fits any of this at all. Same applies to the pro-ban side; don't come back to me saying the current meta isn't completely match-up based, I'm simply addressing the theory and mentality. drinking game how many times does kurona say theory and mentality
I've gotta jump in and say that something I'm seeing a lot on this thread and something that's really worrying me is that quite a few people on the anti-ban side - not all of them; I have seen quite a few legitimately good anti-ban posts from users who have thought this through well - is that there's this "Pick your poison" mentality. This isn't necessarily directed at any one individual, but I'm seeing a lot of "well the metagame is too match-up based right now and it's better to have it over-centralized". What you're doing there is not attempting to make the metagame good by bringing Aegis back down, what you're trying to do there is make the metagame slightly less painful by bringing Aegis back down. Maybe an over-centralized metagame is better than a match-up based one, I won't try and say one's better than the other because that's completely subjective, but what I will say is that neither is a desirable outcome in the slightest. What we should be striving towards is a metagame that's fun to play; not a match-up based one, not an over-centralized one which is in your opinion slightly less bad, but a metagame in which these problems either do not exist or are minimized as much as humanly possible. Funnily enough, I think teamsnickers summed it up pretty well himself; he honestly admitted that the current meta is awful, he felt there's no fixing it so might as well bring Aegis down. If you're voting to bring Aegis down because you think Over-centralization > Match-up, please reconsider. Neither is a good outcome and this will only cause much more trouble than it's worth; simply wait for the next suspect where hopefully a better solution will be found - such as a Lando-I suspect, for instance - but hastily jumping for Over-centralization over Match-up based won't solve a thing.

 

[iamQmai]

Bear in mind this post comes with 11 games played on the suspect ladder, so I'm not the most best person to talk about this, but I shall still put my 2 cents in.

I don't think it's OP. These 50/50's work both ways. When it's in blade form the user will have to think "Will my opponent attack me? Or will he setup?" If they choose incorrectly then it could lose a game. 150/150 sounds very powerful but when you think Shadow Ball is only 80BP you then see that it's not as potent as you might think it is on paper. It's also very slow, which may seem good when it's in shield form but when it wants to go back to shield form then it has to use KS which like I said earlier, could be a 50/50 as to whether the opponent attacks or sets up.

Also, people are saying it's going to be used on every team? I've seen it about 3 times. On it's own suspect ladder, so 3/11 is not all that high, I've seen many more Keldeo's, Landorus-I's, Landorus-T's etc. It will be a big threat, but I don't think it will be too good.

 

[Freeroamer]

Bear in mind this post comes with 11 games played on the suspect ladder, so I'm not the most best person to talk about this, but I shall still put my 2 cents in.

I don't think it's OP. These 50/50's work both ways. When it's in blade form the user will have to think "Will my opponent attack me? Or will he setup?" If they choose incorrectly then it could lose a game. 150/150 sounds very powerful but when you think Shadow Ball is only 80BP you then see that it's not as potent as you might think it is on paper. It's also very slow, which may seem good when it's in shield form but when it wants to go back to shield form then it has to use KS which like I said earlier, could be a 50/50 as to whether the opponent attacks or sets up.

Also, people are saying it's going to be used on every team? I've seen it about 3 times. On it's own suspect ladder, so 3/11 is not all that high, I've seen many more Keldeo's, Landorus-I's, Landorus-T's etc. It will be a big threat, but I don't think it will be too good.

I'm just going to say, 11 games is not enough to judge whether it will be "used on every team". Even if you won all 11 games, you're still in what I would class as low ladder, playing against inexperienced opponents, even now I'm in the 1400s I still occasionally get teams with stuff like Scarf Darmanitan and Espeon not on Baton Pass teams. I would recommend getting a more experienced view of the ladder in general, starting from roughly 1300 and playing 30-40 games will give a more realistic view, even though I wouldn't class that as high level as such, you will at least be playing against people with some experience.

 

[Kurona]

I got to ask-why everyone so sure that if aegislash will come be to OU he will be on almost every team?
Even in XY his usage never passed the 24-25%, which is completly okay for high level mon. While being amazing he still not at a level of outclassing everything, not to mention he always short on something(offensive wears down easily and lose bulk, defensive is underwhelming in attacking power).
It just seem based of nothing to think he will get such a ridiculous usage.

This may be true, but you must remember that usage does not equal viability. To give an example, say Mega Rayquaza was to come down to OU - I know, ridiculous - and for whatever reason it only got about 20% usage. This does not mean it is not a restraint on teambuilding - it would still be, bar absolutely nothing, the biggest threat in the metagame and of course something you would have to dedicate the main teambuilding process to attempting to beat.
The same holds true for those on the pro-ban side of Aegis. If for some reason a Pokémon that good doesn't get a lot of usage, the argument still goes that it'd be the best Pokémon in the meta and something that would constrain your teambuilding because you have to dedicate a lot of your team to checking it.
It's sort of like Fire Insurance in this case. You hope to god your house won't catch on fire this year, but it's best to prepare for it just in case.

 

[iamQmai]

I'm just going to say, 11 games is not enough to judge whether it will be "used on every team". Even if you won all 11 games, you're still in what I would class as low ladder, playing against inexperienced opponents, even now I'm in the 1400s I still occasionally get teams with stuff like Scarf Darmanitan and Espeon not on Baton Pass teams. I would recommend getting a more experienced view of the ladder in general, starting from roughly 1300 and playing 30-40 games will give a more realistic view, even though I wouldn't class that as high level as such, you will at least be playing against people with some experience.

I completely agree with you, but I'm just saying right now I really haven't seen a lot. If uni didn't have so much work right now I'd be playing it more so I could see how it fares and give a better evaluation on it.
I'm not saying that what I've said should be taken to a high level of play, but they're my current views on what is happening!

 

[Magis4Life]

I completely agree with you, but I'm just saying right now I really haven't seen a lot. If uni didn't have so much work right now I'd be playing it more so I could see how it fares and give a better evaluation on it.
I'm not saying that what I've said should be taken to a high level of play, but they're my current views on what is happening!

The issue is that your post is mere speculation, which is natural after only playing 11 games so far (I'm sure you will play more), rather than one that reflects how aegislash is being used from all levels of experience. You don't necessarily need to be the most elite or skilled battler in the world, and I'm certain Freeroamer wasn't noting this, but rather a mere 11 games at the lower ladder really gives a narrow view to how aegislash is used, especially from more, at the very least, experienced and more skilled players.

 

[Metalhand]

This may be true, but you must remember that usage does not equal viability. To give an example, say Mega Rayquaza was to come down to OU - I know, ridiculous - and for whatever reason it only got about 20% usage. This does not mean it is not a restraint on teambuilding - it would still be, bar absolutely nothing, the biggest threat in the metagame and of course something you would have to dedicate the main teambuilding process to attempting to beat.
The same holds true for those on the pro-ban side of Aegis. If for some reason a Pokémon that good doesn't get a lot of usage, the argument still goes that it'd be the best Pokémon in the meta and something that would constrain your teambuilding because you have to dedicate a lot of your team to checking it.
It's sort of like Fire Insurance in this case. You hope to god your house won't catch on fire this year, but it's best to prepare for it just in case.

I didn't say it doesn't restraint teambuilding, and for sure we will feel its presence in the meta(I'm personaly okay with this but this is another discussion), but everyone seem to be sure it will get 70% usage because he is so good. I think that if there is any reason to ban aegi is for overcentralising and not. Its amazing mon, but not a defensive or offensive threat which is unbeatable in the right hand. Its the fact that some mon need to prepare for it and running less optimal set that making him to seem to some too much. So saying such a things like him being used on every team is seem to me like exaggerating for no reason.

 

[WebBowser]

I'm just going to say, 11 games is not enough to judge whether it will be "used on every team". Even if you won all 11 games, you're still in what I would class as low ladder, playing against inexperienced opponents, even now I'm in the 1400s I still occasionally get teams with stuff like Scarf Darmanitan and Espeon not on Baton Pass teams. I would recommend getting a more experienced view of the ladder in general, starting from roughly 1300 and playing 30-40 games will give a more realistic view, even though I wouldn't class that as high level as such, you will at least be playing against people with some experience.

I must admit I got a real good chuckle out of this.

So there's a few points that I would like to address.

1. "Mega Gardevoir is forced to run Shadow Ball": Frankly, she's not obligated to run shadow ball for aegis anymore then mmeta is obligated to run grass knot for slowbro. Due to her typing, she isn't particularly threatened by pursuit trapping, and she actually does pretty good damage on the switch with hyper voice:

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 80-94 (24.6 - 29%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
(note, I have no idea why the calc lists 232 SPA EVs on m-gard by default, but I trust it anyway)

This calc shows that at half health, Aegi loses his ability to reliably check m-gard without shadow sneak (calc for reference).

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 168-200 (60.6 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Pursuit(80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 113-133 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Does pursuit hurt? Heck yeah it does, but so does pretty much any other attack. More importantly, if he pursuits your gard, your aegi check gets a free swap in, which can be huge (especially for more offensive checks). Shadow Ball is definitely a viable option, but it's by no means required. Not to mention that many aegis are mixed, meaning that WoWing him on the switch in and then swapping out is a perfectly viable option (not to mention that WoW m-garde is pretty good in general).

So yeah, M-Garde will be fine. Most of this applies to specs sylveon for those who still like using that.


2. "Aegislash is so good that you cannot justify not running him": This is blatantly false, and I can say this not only because of my BS team, but because I've seen plenty of aegislash-less teams even in the high 1.4K-1.5K ELO parts of the ladder, and they perform just as well as they did before aegis was starting to be suspected. The thing is that as Aegi becomes more common (which he is right now), the things he commonly checks become more rare, reducing the need to run aegislash because you won't need his checking prowess as much. He's not anymore of an "auto-include" then Lando-T is.

 

[Arcueid]

Aegislash-Shield 60/50/150/50/150/60/520
Aegislash-Blade 60/150/50/150/50/60/520
(a total of 720 stats!?)​

Extract from the Viability Rankings

S Rank

A+ Rank



A Rank



A- Rank

Aegislash was perhaps one of the best Pokemon in the tier in XY but honestly, it restricted teambuilding in XY and I predict that it can do the same in ORAS if allowed. Lets take a look at the OU Viability Ranking, shall we?

Aegi can run both defensive, Special, and Physical sets and this can make it extremely versatile and unpredictable in OU.

Aegi allows 50/50s and it has excellent defenses in its Shield Forme and it has excellent offenses in its Blade Forme. That fact is undisputed. It furthermore checks (mind you, not counter) certain Altaria-Mega and Mega Metagross sets, which are probably the best Pokemons of the tier alongside with Landorus. Certain Pokemon, such as Landorus, Exca, both Mega Charizards, and Heatran would become more used and more viable if Aegi gets unbanned. King's Shield allows the trainer to scout their opponent's sets with ease. All Fairies not named Klefki or Azumarill get hurt really badly by Aegi. Other Psychics such as Jirachi, Mega Alakazam, Starmie can get pummeled with a STAB Shadow Ball. Thundurus gets checked badly unless it doesnt run Heat Wave.

Pokemons that cant deal with Aegi:

Calcs:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 386-456 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 175-207 (57 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 294-348 (97.6 - 115.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Shield forme)
+1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 214-254 (66 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Shield Forme)
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 166-196 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Shield Forme)
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 306-362 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 146-172 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Shield Forme)
252+ SpA Celebi Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 126-150 (38.8 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Shield Forme)

#KeepAegiInUbersForABetterOU​

 

[Noulis]

Aegislash-Shield 60/50/150/50/150/60/520
Aegislash-Blade 60/150/50/150/50/60/520
(a total of 720 stats!?)​

Extract from the Viability Rankings

S Rank

A+ Rank



A Rank



A- Rank

Aegislash was perhaps one of the best Pokemon in the tier in XY but honestly, it restricted teambuilding in XY and I predict that it can do the same in ORAS if allowed. Lets take a look at the OU Viability Ranking, shall we?

Aegi can run both defensive, Special, and Physical sets and this can make it extremely versatile and unpredictable in OU.

Aegi allows 50/50s and it has excellent defenses in its Shield Forme and it has excellent offenses in its Blade Forme. That fact is undisputed. It furthermore checks (mind you, not counter) certain Altaria-Mega and Mega Metagross sets, which are probably the best Pokemons of the tier alongside with Landorus. Certain Pokemon, such as Landorus, Exca, both Mega Charizards, and Heatran would become more used and more viable if Aegi gets unbanned. King's Shield allows the trainer to scout their opponent's sets with ease. All Fairies not named Klefki or Azumarill get hurt really badly by Aegi. Other Psychics such as Jirachi, Mega Alakazam, Starmie can get pummeled with a STAB Shadow Ball. Thundurus gets checked badly unless it doesnt run Heat Wave.

Pokemons that cant deal with Aegi:

Calcs:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 386-456 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 175-207 (57 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 294-348 (97.6 - 115.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Shield forme)
+1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 214-254 (66 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Shield Forme)

#KeepAegiInUbersForABetterOU​

just wanted to say that altaria can be cotton guard set that can deal with physical aegish or special attacker and kill it with fire blast as well.

EDIT: also mega-garde can use shadowball if u want to have it deal with aegish which is a pretty viable move on her or WoW it on the switch and also celebi learns earth power if u want to use it to beat aegish.

 

[Arcueid]

just wanted to say that altaria can be cotton guard set that can deal with physical aegish or special attacker and kill it with fire blast as well

True that
I meant DD offensive Altaria. CG Altaria can be taken care of by Flash Cannon, AKA, the Specially Offensive Aegi, the one I prefered in XY

 

[Kurona]

I didn't say it doesn't restraint teambuilding, and for sure we will feel its presence in the meta(I'm personaly okay with this but this is another discussion), but everyone seem to be sure it will get 70% usage because he is so good. I think that if there is any reason to ban aegi is for overcentralising and not. Its amazing mon, but not a defensive or offensive threat which is unbeatable in the right hand. Its the fact that some mon need to prepare for it and running less optimal set that making him to seem to some too much. So saying such a things like him being used on every team is seem to me like exaggerating for no reason.

Oh that is true in that case and I'll agree with you there - though I would like to make the little footnote that the statistic you provided, 25%, does mean 1 in 4 teams which is still a very large amount.

 

[Arcueid]

just wanted to say that altaria can be cotton guard set that can deal with physical aegish or special attacker and kill it with fire blast as well.

EDIT: also mega-garde can use shadowball if u want to have it deal with aegish which is a pretty viable move on her or WoW it on the switch and also celebi learns earth power if u want to use it to beat aegish.

Noulis, that is not alone strong enough to finish Aegi, I also added calcs to back up my claim

 

[MZ]

I must admit I got a real good chuckle out of this.

So there's a few points that I would like to address.

1. "Mega Gardevoir is forced to run Shadow Ball": Frankly, she's not obligated to run shadow ball for aegis anymore then mmeta is obligated to run grass knot for slowbro. Due to her typing, she isn't particularly threatened by pursuit trapping, and she actually does pretty good damage on the switch with hyper voice:

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 80-94 (24.6 - 29%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
(note, I have no idea why the calc lists 232 SPA EVs on m-gard by default, but I trust it anyway)

This calc shows that at half health, Aegi loses his ability to reliably check m-gard without shadow sneak (calc for reference).

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 168-200 (60.6 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Pursuit(80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 113-133 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Does pursuit hurt? Heck yeah it does, but so does pretty much any other attack. More importantly, if he pursuits your gard, your aegi check gets a free swap in, which can be huge (especially for more offensive checks). Shadow Ball is definitely a viable option, but it's by no means required. Not to mention that many aegis are mixed, meaning that WoWing him on the switch in and then swapping out is a perfectly viable option (not to mention that WoW m-garde is pretty good in general).

So yeah, M-Garde will be fine. Most of this applies to specs sylveon for those who still like using that.


2. "Aegislash is so good that you cannot justify not running him": This is blatantly false, and I can say this not only because of my BS team, but because I've seen plenty of aegislash-less teams even in the high 1.4K-1.5K ELO parts of the ladder, and they perform just as well as they did before aegis was starting to be suspected. The thing is that as Aegi becomes more common (which he is right now), the things he commonly checks become more rare, reducing the need to run aegislash because you won't need his checking prowess as much. He's not anymore of an "auto-include" then Lando-T is.

As a side note, 232 special attack is because you need the rest in defense to live two LO draco meteors from Latios from full and max speed is 100% necessary, plus it isn't that much weaker

Sorry but considering KS a coinflip is just ridiculous. Unless the Aegislash player is choosing whether or not to use it on any turn randomly, or it tries to use it twice in a row, the moment will usually be decided by the most skilled player, IE the one who wins the prediction war (and no, by personal expecience, using KS is never safe, there are a LOT of sweepers that can use the free turn to boost and oneshot your team if they predict correctly the KS). The exceptions would be the moves who can ignore KS or the situation who never gets taken into consideration: If Aegislash has received prior damage, wich considering he is a pivot, has no recovery and is relatively easy to check (anything with a stong fire blast, EQ or earth power and a bit of bulk will usually scare him out).
we always see "oh, but aegi can KO gardevoir on the spot". but what happens if garde switches out after sending you WoW or shadow ball?
aegi is still weakened and probably won't be able to switch in again. hydreigon and gothitelle in BW worked similarly. the best way to respond it was to hammer them with a strong move to ensure they won't annoy you anymore because of that prior damage and then force them out.
Yes, it is possible it will get a switch in for free later, but that prior damage will still limit what he can stay in on.
but let's say he has support from wishers. well, try to not let him take too many of those wishes and you will be fine, and just be carefull to NOT clicka move it can enter into when he comes for the wish. as i remember, every counters section of wishers recommended this way to go to prevent the wisher to do his job efficiently.
still have problems? well, in my mind there are four hard counters who aren't completely useless in OU: crocune, CM mega sableye, bulky mega scizor and defensive gliscor

and that's it all that should be said in my opinion, if YOU know it threatens your team, you keep giving him free switches and do not try to wear it down, nor you consider to apply any emergency solution or pack a dedicated counter (like nobody carries steel or fairy walls just to deter things like latios from going wild with DM, or a flying resist for CB talon), then you should deserve to loose to it imao. it's like saying "mm, chansey somehow walls my whole team, but i cannot include taunt or a powerfull fighting on my team, it's truly OP (i hope everyone understands that example is exagerated, chans is very easy to break through)"


googly, i can guarantee you that your post won't be ignored, your point of view is not as rare as some aegi haters want us to think

and kiyo, in the XY early meta, before the ban, only aroung 30% teams used Aegislash. Wait until the hype falls a bit and see, if we dropped flygon to RU (which we should, regardless of how many noobs use it) people would start to add it to their teams like candy, just to test what it can do, and months later realize it's not as good as they hyped, and the usage of flygon would drop. once again, remember early XY and early ORAS, when EVERYONE used things like mega bannette, mega houndoom and goodra or mega sceptile, mega camerupt and mega sableye just to test them? or when DW Serperior got released? i got tired to see them, seriously, and their usage in their respective tiers have dropped a lot since then...

King's shield is a prediction won by the most skilled player? Other mons cause 50/50s? Uh, lemme address these. First of all, you can't outplay a 50/50. You can't predict which face a coin will land on (even though one side is heavier so that's not exactly a 50/50, you get my point. But somebody was gonna nitpick it). Kings shield doesn't promote skill, it's simply a way to help people bullshit their way out of situations that they shouldn't normally win. It isn't broken all on its own, it's just a bullshit move to help add to Aegislash's bannable-ness. Would we enjoy, idk, Keldeo with a random chance to suddenly resist Talonflame's brave bird, even if it was only a 30% chance? Sure, you can predict kings shield, but prediction works both ways, so this is neither an argument for or against Aegislash.

Secondly, a lot of people have brought up how other mons cause 50/50s with sucker punch and pursuit. This is true, but we aren't suspecting other mons. We're suspecting Aegislash, and 50/50 are adding onto his brokenness. Yes Bisharp, Tyranitar can cause them, but nobody is calling them broken. They just help push Aegislash over the edge. Besides Aegislash causes a 50/50 every turn that it's in vs a contact attacker, which, combined with how common Aegislash would be, would be increasing a totally uncompetitive part of the game, far more than Bisharp creates. Of course this won't apply to people who think they can outplay the 50/50, so if you believe that then please post a few replays where you predict every sucker punch vs knock off/iron head (ideally you don't kill the Bisharp before all PP is out so we can see how amazing you are). No, Aegislash doesn't create one every turn, but he still generates a chance for himself to bullshit his way out of a normally unwinnable situation for any other mon.

Controversy go!

 

[Noulis]

True that
I meant DD offensive Altaria. CG Altaria can be taken care of by Flash Cannon, AKA, the Specially Offensive Aegi, the one I prefered in XY

well yeah it all depends on what sets both of them using...

Noulis, that is not alone strong enough to finish Aegi, I also added calcs to back up my claim

regarding mega altaria i said that there ways for it to win over the physical aegish depending on what set its using i didnt mean it could win over the special set thought in a normal match and not 1vs1 special mega alt has a chance to win vs the special aegish i think, now as for mega garde the plan is to hit aegish with WoW or shadow ball on the switch then switch out not try to win 1vs1 vs it.

 

[Kurona]

As a side note, 232 special attack is because you need the rest in defense to live a Scizor BP (CB I believe) from full and max speed is 100% necessary, plus it isn't that much weaker

Even 252 HP/252+ Def isn't enough to have a guaranteed survival from CB Scizor BP. 24 Defence is in order to always avoid the 2HKO from LO Latios Psyshock, making Gardy a check to it.